Random Thoughts Thread - Nassau Inter-County Express (NICE)

[NY1635]

Which route would get all day express service first, the n4 or the n6?

[checkmatechamp13]

Which route would get all day express service first, the n4 or the n6?

 

The n6 definitely. (Technically, those NCC-Hempstead trips are n6x trips). For starters, the n6 has slightly more ridership, had limited-stop service before the n4 did (actually NICE was the one who came out with it, not LIB), and is further from the LIRR (and a less frequent branch of it) to boot.

[NY1635]

The n6 definitely. (Technically, those NCC-Hempstead trips are n6x trips). For starters, the n6 has slightly more ridership, had limited-stop service before the n4 did (actually NICE was the one who came out with it, not LIB), and is further from the LIRR (and a less frequent branch of it) to boot.

Fair point, do you think it's possible for the n4 to serve Green Acres Mall? In hindsight, I'm surprised this wasn't done during the LIB days.

[Joel Up Front]

The Q5 and 85 aready serve GA.  Also, it's easier to get to RFM from the N4 than it is to Green Acres.

[Burrstone]

IMO the n4 should be cut at hook creek blvd or rerouted to and cut at green acres mall if nice refuses to restore the n19 to babylon.  I mean the reason given to not restore service along montauk highway to babylon is that it it is outside of nassau county and another agency (sct) provides service along montauk highway (S20, ever 90 minutes).  The n4 passengers leaving nassau county can take the Q5 from hook creek blvd or green acres following the same route another agency ( MTA ).  What's fair is fair, actually it's more than fair for the n4 rider compared to the n19 rider waiting up to 10 minutes for the Q5 as opposed to up to an hour an a half for the S20 if it's on time.

[Q43LTD]

Fair point, do you think it's possible for the n4 to serve Green Acres Mall? In hindsight, I'm surprised this wasn't done during the LIB days.

No, it isn't. Too much of a diversion. 

[pranavbhat924]

I was on bus 1708 which was on the n25. The driver had a new blue seat, however the horn was torn off.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[NY1635]

The map for the n80 shows it running along Sunrise Highway between the LIRR station and the Mall. The time point for Hicksville LIRR seems to be missing on it's schedule.

[checkmatechamp13]

IMO the n4 should be cut at hook creek blvd or rerouted to and cut at green acres mall if nice refuses to restore the n19 to babylon.  I mean the reason given to not restore service along montauk highway to babylon is that it it is outside of nassau county and another agency (sct) provides service along montauk highway (S20, ever 90 minutes).  The n4 passengers leaving nassau county can take the Q5 from hook creek blvd or green acres following the same route another agency ( MTA ).  What's fair is fair, actually it's more than fair for the n4 rider compared to the n19 rider waiting up to 10 minutes for the Q5 as opposed to up to an hour an a half for the S20 if it's on time.

 

You're affecting a lot more riders (and cause a much larger drop in ridership) with any proposal entailing cutting a NICE bus back to the City Line, compared to cutting the n19 back to Sunrise Mall. 

[Burrstone]

You're affecting a lot more riders (and cause a much larger drop in ridership) with any proposal entailing cutting a NICE bus back to the City Line, compared to cutting the n19 back to Sunrise Mall. 

 

I don't care about ridership, if ridership is the issue than NICE should focus on Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan express routes.  The reason given to not restore the n19 to Babylon was not ridership it was because another service provider provided service along the same route.  Under this same theory routes to/from queens must be axed at the county line/next nearest transfer point. 

 

Ironically Suffolk County cares so they rerouted the S20 offering service every 90 minutes via Montauk Highway.  NICE uses Unqua Rd, to get to/from the mall, SCT uses Broadway/W. Oak St in Amityville to get to Sunrise Mall so NICE really screwed over a large group of mentally retarded people living on Carman Mill Rd., many of whom have physical disabilities and cannot make the over half mile walk to/from the bus stop at Merrick/Unqua.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

You're affecting a lot more riders (and cause a much larger drop in ridership) with any proposal entailing cutting a NICE bus back to the City Line, compared to cutting the n19 back to Sunrise Mall.

I don't know if the cuts affected him personally, but it seems like it, given his reply towards you.

I don't care about ridership, if ridership is the issue than NICE should focus on Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan express routes. The reason given to not restore the n19 to Babylon was not ridership it was because another service provider provided service along the same route. Under this same theory routes to/from queens must be axed at the county line/next nearest transfer point.

 

Ironically Suffolk County cares so they rerouted the S20 offering service every 90 minutes via Montauk Highway. NICE uses Unqua Rd, to get to/from the mall, SCT uses Broadway/W. Oak St in Amityville to get to Sunrise Mall so NICE really screwed over a large group of mentally retarded people living on Carman Mill Rd., many of whom have physical disabilities and cannot make the over half mile walk to/from the bus stop at Merrick/Unqua.

Ridership on that segment from Sunrise to Babylon wasn't the greatest. It was decent at best. There's a far greater demand for Nassau-Queens travel over Nassau-Suffolk Travel. Furthermore, the route wasn't even closed-door (like it is in Queens), and there, and ridership was anemic compared to travel towards Queens. Those same routes are also some of NICE's busiest lines, and cutting them to the city line would mean a big loss in ridership, and eventually, reductions in service.

 

Also, ridership was not the only issue, but also the budget. NICE couldn't keep subsidizing rides for people who live in Suffolk. A lot of people riding the n19 east of Sunrise rode it within Suffolk County. Nassau has no right to provide service for them, even though the setup was like that for the past 40+ years. It's Suffolk's responsibility to operate that service at this point. Yes, there are people that get screwed over, but that should be more of an issue that should be brought up to NICE rather than being selfish about it. This "If I can't have it, neither can you" mentality is detrimental for all sorts of progress. I have never seen much ridership on the Carman Mill Rd section of the route (neither the Unqua Road portion, but I digress), but perhaps the n19 can be reroute unto Unqua Road in the northbound direction (since it would take longer going southbound for NICE to serve Unqua Road), thus maintaining some sort of coverage for those folks.

Edited June 27, 2016 by BM5 via WOODHAVEN BL

[Burrstone]

Also, ridership was not the only issue, but also the budget. NICE couldn't keep subsidizing rides for people who live in Suffolk. A lot of people riding the n19 east of Sunrise rode it within Suffolk County. Nassau has no right to provide service for them, even though the setup was like that for the past 40+ years. It's Suffolk's responsibility to operate that service at this point. Yes, there are people that get screwed over, but that should be more of an issue that should be brought up to NICE rather than being selfish about it. This "If I can't have it, neither can you" mentality is detrimental for all sorts of progress. I have never seen much ridership on the Carman Mill Rd section of the route (neither the Unqua Road portion, but I digress), but perhaps the n19 can be reroute unto Unqua Road in the northbound direction (since it would take longer going southbound for NICE to serve Unqua Road), thus maintaining some sort of coverage for those folks.

 

This is the point you are missing and my point with your argument. No, NICE has no obligation to people who live in Suffolk.  We should actually say any obligation to offer service in Suffolk County.  You get lost with ridership (again, the reason given wasn't "ridership and" as you keep defaulting too) in your first paragraph then you contradict yourself saying NICE is under no obligation to service an area outside of Nassau but you think there should be a double standard on the other side of the county line because of ridership?  Can you show me that all buses being sent into queens are breaking even?

 

You can't argue this one with me, I mean you can and lose, my point is solid.  Ridership is not the point, if you want to continue to argue something besides the point I can argue tat too, but I'm busy, lets make it quick.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

This is the point you are missing and my point with your argument. No, NICE has no obligation to people who live in Suffolk. We should actually say any obligation to offer service in Suffolk County. You get lost with ridership (again, the reason given wasn't "ridership and" as you keep defaulting too) in your first paragraph then you contradict yourself saying NICE is under no obligation to service an area outside of Nassau but you think there should be a double standard on the other side of the county line because of ridership? Can you show me that all buses being sent into queens are breaking even?

 

You can't argue this one with me, I mean you can and lose, my point is solid. Ridership is not the point, if you want to continue to argue something besides the point I can argue tat too, but I'm busy, lets make it quick.

First off, the service in Queens is closed-door (besides a segment of the n24, and the n31/32/33 in Far Rockaway), unlike service in Suffolk where its all open-door, moreso due to the lack of other transit options in their corresponding areas. Queens residents travel wholly within Queens will not be able to use NICE buses, while people in Suffolk are. There are people in Nassau trying to use the buses to get to Queens, to other parts of Nassau County, and to Suffolk as well. However, the demand is greater for people from Nassau county going to Queens over Suffolk, by a huge margin. I can't comment on the n33, but all the other NICE routes going to Queens are SRO or crushloaded within Nassau, and also once it crosses the city line into Queens. A lot of people go for the subway, to get them to other parts of the city. What's in Suffolk that's going to attract the same amount of people? It also is beneficial to many people doing the reverse commute either living in Nassau or living in the city, because of the LIRR's inability to provide adequate reverse-peak service. These routes also go to heavily transited parts in Nassau county too, so there's going to be a lot of people using those buses.

 

Like I said, there was a problem with the budget too, which made NICE cut routes. However, why would NICE purposely cut or reduce service from their workhorses (in which in some cases, the service isn't enough), compared to lightly used portions of certain routes? The n72 and n79 are used more than the n19 was in Suffolk county (both for intra-county and inter-county trips).

 

Ridership will come into play in deciding which routes to reduce or cut. Subsidies are another thing that are considered when making cuts, but usually the lower ridership routes or segments are looked into to be reduce or eliminated. Buses into Queens are not breaking even, and neither are the Nassau-Suffolk inter-county routes. The n6 has an 85% farebox recovery ratio, and I believe that's the most cost-efficient route in the system. The routes to Queens tend to be more cost-efficient, with several exceptions. Cut all those buses to the city line, and I guarantee that there will be more people on the LIRR (The Port Washington, Hempstead, Main, and Babylon Lines will all see increases in ridership). However, you lose riders on NICE, and then the overall passenger loads decrease, and then service levels decrease. I don't think you understand how much of the total ridership comes from those routes. Just the n6 alone makes up almost 17% of all NICE bus ridership. The other Nassau-Queens routes are also heavily used, mainly due to the easy connection to the subway. If you notice, most of the intra-Nassau routes do not do very well, or decent at best (with some notable exceptions).

 

As a company, it would make sense to operate service where the demand is greatest, in the most efficient manner. I find it preposterous (yes, I'm using that VG8 term) to even suggest cutting buses to the city line. You'd make it much harder for Nassau County residents to get around, which is hard already because of on-time performance and other factors. Also, this would mean the MTA would have to add service to its buses, in which would be too much for them to handle. NICE bus for the most part serves Nassau county residents trying to get to/from the train (route-wise) efficiently. You can't say the same for the Suffolk portion of the n19, since there are direct alternatives for certain riders between certain points. Having lightly used buses for several miles isn't a good thing either.

 

It sucks that your bus service was reduced (because I didn't agree with eliminating that segment in the first place without alternatives), but to wish the same thing for everyone else is just being plain silly, selfish, and hypocritical. Not caring about ridership is a definite way to eventually lose riders. Tell me why we should care so much about riders on Unqua Road? Are they more important than residents using the bus on Merrick Road, or Uniondale Avenue, or Hempstead Turnpike? You talk about how far those people living on Unqua Road would have to walk, while suggesting for buses heading to Queens to stop at the city line,having to take 30 minutes or more extra on their trip, and shelling out more money (which in some cases, they might not even have), even if they don't take the LIRR.

Edited June 27, 2016 by BM5 via WOODHAVEN BL

[DS4Ever]

the best solution to end this situation of the n19 trunncation from Babylon to Sunrise Mall is extending the s40 to sunrise mall...after all the penultimate 9:30 pm s40 would arrive at latest 10:55pm and thus coonect to the last n55 towards EHempstead and thus to NYC by way of the 24 hour n6...but that is my point of view now the s40 extension can benefit many since first of all the s40 was a very long route from Freeport to Patchogue that is twice the route the s40 is today and was sepetared to two entities because the s40 entered too much into juridisction of Nassau County which is represented by thats time MBSA (furthermore Long Island Bus and todays NICE)...if accounted toe ride between Freeport to 

[DS4Ever]

I think that the best option is extending the s40 to Sunrise Mall to end all this discussion of the truncation of the n19

 

i mean extending the s40 is the ebst option why is it is quite simple,,,the s40 has history of being a long route from Freeport to Patchogue and a headway of 1h45  in similar routing to the s58 or s62 of SCT the difference is that the s40 trasversed nassau county at same level as its home jurisiction thats why the n19 was created prior to the MBSA creation later Long Island

 

here are the options of the first s40 bus:

 

departs 6am from both Patchogue and Sunrise Mall (but would commence at 5:00am from Bay Shore to arrive both terminals by 5:45am)

 

the 6am bus would arrive the other pole at 7:25am for thus depart at 7:30am to return back to its origin point at 8:55am

 

total amount of s40 buses needed: 6 buses plus 1 or 2 if by which one or two s40 buses enroute get malfunctioning

 

the last s40 bus would depart at 9pm from both poles 

 

the following frequencies would dead head 

 

# the arriving 930pm and 10pm s40 which departed from the other pole at 8pm and 830pm BUT would be enroute to Bay Shore to arrive at 10:15pm and 10:45pm the bus shelter of Bay Shore

 

the last s40 bus would make the same scenario (departing 1030pm) as the deadheading previous buses which would be arriving Bay Shore from Sunrise Mall at 1100pm and from Patchogue at latest 11:10pm

[NY1635]

the best solution to end this situation of the n19 trunncation from Babylon to Sunrise Mall is extending the s40 to sunrise mall...after all the penultimate 9:30 pm s40 would arrive at latest 10:55pm and thus coonect to the last n55 towards EHempstead and thus to NYC by way of the 24 hour n6...but that is my point of view now the s40 extension can benefit many since first of all the s40 was a very long route from Freeport to Patchogue that is twice the route the s40 is today and was sepetared to two entities because the s40 entered too much into juridisction of Nassau County which is represented by thats time MBSA (furthermore Long Island Bus and todays NICE)...if accounted toe ride between Freeport to 

Never going to happen. I heard Suffolk Transit is about to eliminate 10 routes and reduce service on others because of a funding problem. Unless Albany decides to step in and help the county fund it's buses, any form of extension into Sunrise Mall won't happen.

Edited June 30, 2016 by NY1635

[DS4Ever]

the problem with Suffolk Transit is that it receives way less passengers i mean Ct Transit Stamford receives 3 times more passsengers than Suffolk and its core population is about 1/5 of Suffolk Transit as a whole

 

example, s58 bus runs hourly (except that huge gap between 10am and 12pm) and recieves less passengers than lets say the CT-S 34 or lets go on to the New Haven division where the demand of bus service is a huge must and sometimes can be packed and New Haven metro area has a bout 500.000 people

 

the problem is that Suffolk residents depend on cars or in to a lesser extent the LIRR since short trips are super cheap (3 USD) 

 

i must say the routes that should be eliminated are the feeder routes like the 1A 1B etc

 

so i guess youre right if the budget cuts are as follow then the s40 extension is now a light favourite to happen what a bummer...

 

a place without bus network is a desert and buses should be kept i wont mind the fare to be increassed to 2.50 and 2.75 or 3 dollars on the s92(since this route is the longest route in the nation at 70 miles or 110 km)

[mac5689]

Never going to happen. I heard Suffolk Transit is about to eliminate 10 routes and reduce service on others because of a funding problem. Unless Albany decides to step in and help the county fund it's buses, any form of extension into Sunrise Mall won't happen.

Last I heard was that it was either eliminate the 10 least used routes or cut least used runs, not both.

[mac5689]

 

i must say the routes that should be eliminated are the feeder routes like the 1A 1B etc

 

 

Most likely a bunch of feeders and a few non feeders.

 

Last time route cuts came up I heard the routes that were up for elimination were the 5A, S76, and S56.

 

Other possibilities are probably S25, S35, 7D/E, 7A.

 

Though if the go on the eliminating runs then who knows what routes could be any routes. (Though I doubt it will be from any of the most traveled routes.)

[DS4Ever]

the s56 is a bounding of elimination since it makes nearly the same routing as the s58 only difference is the kings park detour and by far only two buses run this route...i think the s56 should extend its route i dont know possibly to Hauppauge since it has to differiente the s58 segment also that the s58 dosent go to Happauge but to East Northport...after the s56 arrives Commack Macys it should share the s54 routing up to Hauppauge...by extending the route to Hauppauge it would have only one terminal (Smith Haven Mall) since Hauppauge is a loop terminal and no buses terminate there (except weekends s27 at the LIE lateral, s33 weekends at Oser Ave Marcus Blvd and the s62 at adams st commerce)

 

the s25 and s35 are more like feeder routes than regular routes..i mean even the 3D has more passenger counts than both routes combined...it should be eliminated

 

the 7D-E by far eliminated as well as the s76...the 5A should be eliminated since it parallels the s58 and more people take the s58

[checkmatechamp13]

the 5A should be eliminated since it parallels the s58 and more people take the s58

 

I think you mean the S62.

[DS4Ever]

yeah touche the s62

[Burrstone]

The problem with the NICE and SCT is that funding is keep on being cut while Cuomo is buying new buses with wifi and usb chargers and Bellone is getting millions to study BRT. 

[NY1635]

Has one seen those new Mercy and RVC blue shuttles in action yet?

[Joel Up Front]

I pass by RVC station all the time and have only seen NG after NG.