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Random Thoughts Thread - Nassau Inter-County Express (NICE)

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n20 and n22 buses should never been split.

Also depends on drivers on n22, n24, n20G/H, sometimes each other interline and they let passengers stay on bus for one fare; or ask to pay again if they want to stay onboard the bus.

n20H bus has lost lots of ridership after split.

 

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On 1/12/2021 at 4:29 AM, B35 via Church said:

Have the n78/79 take over what part? The n24 between RFM & Hicksville? I don't see them running those two routes west of Hicksville like the N78/79 used to... From what I notice, most n78/79 riders either come off the RR itself, the n22, or the n48/49....

Honestly, if I had to justify the splits, then I'd at least consider having the n24 run between Mineola and Jamaica and give the route between Mineola and Hicksville back to the n78. The n79 would assume the part of the existing n22 east of Roosevelt Field while the portion to the west would be all there is of the latter.

On weekdays, limited-stop n28 (rush hours as a combination of the n24 and n78) and n29 (rush hours and middays as a combination of the n22 and n79) would operate between Jamaica and Hicksville to mitigate potential losses. And when I say limited-stop, I mean serving transfer points with intersecting routes and a small number of other intermediate stops.

Granted, I doubt it would work in practice, but I doubt it would necessarily be the worst idea short of abandoning the eastern splits.

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2 hours ago, Lex said:

Honestly, if I had to justify the splits, then I'd at least consider having the n24 run between Mineola and Jamaica and give the route between Mineola and Hicksville back to the n78. The n79 would assume the part of the existing n22 east of Roosevelt Field while the portion to the west would be all there is of the latter.

On weekdays, limited-stop n28 (rush hours as a combination of the n24 and n78) and n29 (rush hours and middays as a combination of the n22 and n79) would operate between Jamaica and Hicksville to mitigate potential losses. And when I say limited-stop, I mean serving transfer points with intersecting routes and a small number of other intermediate stops.

Granted, I doubt it would work in practice, but I doubt it would necessarily be the worst idea short of abandoning the eastern splits.

Port Washington Shuttle bus is consider n28 bus route since it serves Roslyn Station, Roslyn Industrial, with extention of Amsterdam at Harborside, hotles and Pt. Washington downtown.

There are not enough transfer point for ltd stops along Old Country Rd.

Ill rather have direct n20 and n22 bus back as it was before.

Edited by FamousNYLover

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n20G/H should restore direct n20 service during weekday. During weekday rush hour n20X implemented with buses leaving from Hicksville Station, stopping at Broadway Mall, Columbia Drive, SUNY Old Westbury, CW Post, NYIT on  Northern Blvd, Greenvale Rd, Roslyn Locust, Pt-Wahington-Searington, St. Mary's High School, Community Drive, Great Neck Station, City Line, Bell Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Parsons Blvd and Flushing-Main St. Eastbound pickup at Flushing-Main St, Kissena Blvd-Main St, Sanford Av-Parson Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Northern-Bell Blvd, City Line, Great Neck Station, Schechank Av, St. Mary's High School,  Searington-Pt. washington,, Roslyn Locustr, Greenvale Rd, NIYT on Northern, CW Post, SUNY Old Westbury, Columbia Drive, Broadway Mall and Hicksville Station.

n22 need to be restored with weekday rush hour n22X restored.

n27, weekend service need to be restored between Glen Cove and RFM.

Edited by FamousNYLover

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3 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

n20G/H should restore direct n20 service during weekday. During weekday rush hour n20X implemented with buses leaving from Hicksville Station, stopping at Broadway Mall, Columbia Drive, SUNY Old Westbury, CW Post, NYIT on  Northern Blvd, Greenvale Rd, Roslyn Locust, Pt-Wahington-Searington, St. Mary's High School, Community Drive, Great Neck Station, City Line, Bell Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Parsons Blvd and Flushing-Main St. Eastbound pickup at Flushing-Main St, Kissena Blvd-Main St, Sanford Av-Parson Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Northern-Bell Blvd, City Line, Great Neck Station, Schechank Av, St. Mary's High School,  Searington-Pt. washington,, Roslyn Locustr, Greenvale Rd, NIYT on Northern, CW Post, SUNY Old Westbury, Columbia Drive, Broadway Mall and Hicksville Station.

n22 need to be restored with weekday rush hour n22X restored.

n27, weekend service need to be restored between Glen Cove and RFM.

There is no need for a n20X. That bus makes very little stops already between Hicksville and Glen Cove Rd. I would just add more service along that route (MTA used to have alot of service to Roslyn, adding that amount of service back will do wonders).  Regarding LTD stops in Queens, I'm not sure that works on the n20. Ridership along Sanford/Northern Blvd is in my opinion greater than Flushing- Main Street Station.

In some ways I do think that the n20 should be combined back together because NICE lost alot of ridership along that route.  People used to ride Queens- Roslyn, Manhasset all the time. That ridership I believe NICE destroyed by splitting the route. Finally n21 should be listed in the 20H timetable at the least

I do miss riding the n20 LTD over the roslyn viadact though

n21 I would run via Glen Cove Rd, so the n27 doesn't need to come back. But I would extend the n23 into Hempstead/RF and eliminate weekend service to Mineola.

n22X is suspended. But with the split I'm not sure if they are even planning to bring it back. 

5 hours ago, Lex said:

Honestly, if I had to justify the splits, then I'd at least consider having the n24 run between Mineola and Jamaica and give the route between Mineola and Hicksville back to the n78. The n79 would assume the part of the existing n22 east of Roosevelt Field while the portion to the west would be all there is of the latter.

On weekdays, limited-stop n28 (rush hours as a combination of the n24 and n78) and n29 (rush hours and middays as a combination of the n22 and n79) would operate between Jamaica and Hicksville to mitigate potential losses. And when I say limited-stop, I mean serving transfer points with intersecting routes and a small number of other intermediate stops.

Granted, I doubt it would work in practice, but I doubt it would necessarily be the worst idea short of abandoning the eastern splits.

I think that would be too complicated. It would be easier to run the n22 full route between 169th and Hicksville. The n22 segment west of RF is pretty well utilized so I don't see it going away. 

The problem with splitting the n22 is that people from Queens use it to take it to RF and people use from new Cassel and Westbury gets off alittle after RF and towards Mineola. So by splitting it at RF people from New Cassel will be severly impacted, and if you split it at Mineola, people from Queens/NHP will be affected, so I would honestly leave that route alone.

n24 however, I would split it at Mineola. A new route could just take over between Hicksville and Mineola (old n79) if they REALLY want to split the route. But honestly ridership along Old Country Rd increased when they combined the n79 western portion to the n24. But most of the ridership seems to be off by the time the bus reaches the old source mall. So I don't think it would be wise to split either route to be honest, but in regards to impact splitting the n24 will have a much lighter impact than the n22

Edited by Mtatransit

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1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

There is no need for a n20X. That bus makes very little stops already between Hicksville and Glen Cove Rd. I would just add more service along that route (MTA used to have alot of service to Roslyn, adding that amount of service back will do wonders).  Regarding LTD stops in Queens, I'm not sure that works on the n20. Ridership along Sanford/Northern Blvd is in my opinion greater than Flushing- Main Street Station.

In some ways I do think that the n20 should be combined back together because NICE lost alot of ridership along that route.  People used to ride Queens- Roslyn, Manhasset all the time. That ridership I believe NICE destroyed by splitting the route. Finally n21 should be listed in the 20H timetable at the least

I do miss riding the n20 LTD over the roslyn viadact though

n21 I would run via Glen Cove Rd, so the n27 doesn't need to come back. But I would extend the n23 into Hempstead/RF and eliminate weekend service to Mineola.

n22X is suspended. But with the split I'm not sure if they are even planning to bring it back. 

I think that would be too complicated. It would be easier to run the n22 full route between 169th and Hicksville. The n22 segment west of RF is pretty well utilized so I don't see it going away. 

The problem with splitting the n22 is that people from Queens use it to take it to RF and people use from new Cassel and Westbury gets off alittle after RF and towards Mineola. So by splitting it at RF people from New Cassel will be severly impacted, and if you split it at Mineola, people from Queens/NHP will be affected, so I would honestly leave that route alone.

n24 however, I would split it at Mineola. A new route could just take over between Hicksville and Mineola (old n79) if they REALLY want to split the route. But honestly ridership along Old Country Rd increased when they combined the n79 western portion to the n24. But most of the ridership seems to be off by the time the bus reaches the old source mall. So I don't think it would be wise to split either route to be honest, but in regards to impact splitting the n24 will have a much lighter impact than the n22

Depends on bus driver some n22 bus drivers interline and let passengers stay on bus. This was big mistake cutting n22 into two legs. It's incovient. Sometimes connecting n22 buses don't wait for each other when they suppose to.

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1 minute ago, Lex said:

Honestly, if I had to justify the splits, then I'd at least consider having the n24 run between Mineola and Jamaica and give the route between Mineola and Hicksville back to the n78. The n79 would assume the part of the existing n22 east of Roosevelt Field while the portion to the west would be all there is of the latter.

On weekdays, limited-stop n28 (rush hours as a combination of the n24 and n78) and n29 (rush hours and middays as a combination of the n22 and n79) would operate between Jamaica and Hicksville to mitigate potential losses. And when I say limited-stop, I mean serving transfer points with intersecting routes and a small number of other intermediate stops.

Granted, I doubt it would work in practice, but I doubt it would necessarily be the worst idea short of abandoning the eastern splits.

If I were to justify splitting the two routes (I'm emphasizing it because it's a big "if", AFAIC), as far as their respective eastern portions are concerned:

  • the portion of the n22 b/w RFM & Hicksville would be a standalone route
  • the portion of the n24 b/w RFM & Hicksville would be combined with the n15's portion b/w HTC & RFM (Clinton av spur)

...and as far as their respective western split portions are concerned:

  • the portion of the n22 b/w RFM & Jamaica would be a standalone route
  • the portion of the n24 b/w Mineola & Jamaica would be a standalone route

I can see NICE wanting to no longer have both the n22 & n24 running along OCR b/w Mineola & RFM, but IMO they're choosing the wrong route split to retain doing so.... The demand is simply greater for the n22 over the n24 from RFM, due west - but they opt to stymie the EB n22 at Mineola instead.... As for those part-time/peak n15's that also run along OCR from County Seat Dr. towards RFM, there's a more efficient way to have those riders emanating from points south of the county offices have direct access to the county offices.... Having [both the n40/41 & n15 run b/w HTC & OCR] is even more wasteful than having [n22's & n24's running along OCR b/w LIRR Mineola & RFM]..... Divert a few peak hour n40/41 trips via County Seat & call it a day.... The n15 would run solely b/w HTC & Long Beach, regardless....

2 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

I think that would be too complicated. It would be easier to run the n22 full route between 169th and Hicksville. The n22 segment west of RF is pretty well utilized so I don't see it going away. 

The problem with splitting the n22 is that people from Queens use it to take it to RF and people use from new Cassel and Westbury gets off alittle after RF and towards Mineola. So by splitting it at RF people from New Cassel will be severly impacted, and if you split it at Mineola, people from Queens/NHP will be affected, so I would honestly leave that route alone.

n24 however, I would split it at Mineola. A new route could just take over between Hicksville and Mineola (old n79) if they REALLY want to split the route. But honestly ridership along Old Country Rd increased when they combined the n79 western portion to the n24. But most of the ridership seems to be off by the time the bus reaches the old source mall. So I don't think it would be wise to split either route to be honest, but in regards to impact splitting the n24 will have a much lighter impact than the n22

With the exception of reverting the N79 to go about handling an eastern split of the n24, I concur with everything you said here.... The Manetto Hill portion is spent... I would just have the n78 (with improved headways of course) panning along OCR east of Hicksville & I would extend it to Smith/rt. 110 on top of it..... If it's even worth it at this point, if they're that dead set on retaining the connection, I would relegate the n79 to a weekend only point-to-point shuttle between LIRR Hicksville & Whitman Mall (via Woodbury rd)....

 

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7 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

n20G/H should restore direct n20 service during weekday. During weekday rush hour n20X implemented with buses leaving from Hicksville Station, stopping at Broadway Mall, Columbia Drive, SUNY Old Westbury, CW Post, NYIT on  Northern Blvd, Greenvale Rd, Roslyn Locust, Pt-Wahington-Searington, St. Mary's High School, Community Drive, Great Neck Station, City Line, Bell Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Parsons Blvd and Flushing-Main St. Eastbound pickup at Flushing-Main St, Kissena Blvd-Main St, Sanford Av-Parson Blvd, Sanford Av-165th St, Northern-Bell Blvd, City Line, Great Neck Station, Schechank Av, St. Mary's High School,  Searington-Pt. washington,, Roslyn Locustr, Greenvale Rd, NIYT on Northern, CW Post, SUNY Old Westbury, Columbia Drive, Broadway Mall and Hicksville Station.

4 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

There is no need for a n20X. That bus makes very little stops already between Hicksville and Glen Cove Rd. I would just add more service along that route (MTA used to have alot of service to Roslyn, adding that amount of service back will do wonders).  Regarding LTD stops in Queens, I'm not sure that works on the n20. Ridership along Sanford/Northern Blvd is in my opinion greater than Flushing- Main Street Station

My sentiment is somewhere in-between what you two are saying....

While I would do away with this whole n20G/H bit also, I wouldn't go crazy having an n20x variant skipping stops in Queens.... At the same time, while there aren't many stops b/w Glen Cove rd. & Hicksville, I would side with having n20x's or whatever making less stops b/w Middle Neck rd. & the Clock Tower (Roslyn)..... On top of it, you really didn't need the lion's share of trips off the pre-split n20 diverting to serve LIRR Great Neck either....

If you (referring to NICE bus, not you two) wanna have a couple short turns running b/w Flushing & Great Neck, cool.... My issue though is that too many of the pre-split n20 trips did that diversion to LIRR Great Neck...

7 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

n22 need to be restored with weekday rush hour n22X restored.

n27, weekend service need to be restored between Glen Cove and RFM.

I want to agree with the n22x comment, but I would take a wait & see approach with lifting the temporary discontinuation of the thing.... With the weekend n27, to be perfectly honest, if push came to shove, I'd have to side with NICEbus on that move.... After RFM, at minimum, those buses were more or less an unofficial shuttle to Northern Blvd... With the way the n27 meanders, it racks up a nice chunk of mileage b/w those two points to not be picking up or dropping off much of (sometimes literally) nobody..... If I were to restore weekend service on the n27, at best, it would run hourly & the span would be refined to afternoon hours only; say b/w noon-6pm.... Something along those lines....

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What if they had an n20X (during rush/peak hours only), makes all stops that the n20H does up till Glen Cove Rd (there aren't many anyways and it's usually 1 passenger or two), I'll even throw in the stops until the car dealership, then it goes via Roslyn viaduct, making stops at Manhasset mall, Plandome/Shelter Rock Rd, Schenck Dr and S Middle Neck Rd/Lakeville Rd, and makes all drop-off stops in Queens? While the n20X is running, I would have a local variant (n20) that ends at Glen Cove Rd and makes all stops west that the n20G/H currently do and does not go via Roslyn viaduct. Any rider who needs a local n20 stop between Glen Cove Rd and Great Neck can transfer free of charge at Glen Cove Rd? I think it's a good balance of ridership and the n20 local picks up any slack that's left behind. Basically, this is just an extended Roslyn n20 idea and I'm not directly screwing over any intermediate ridership by keeping a free transfer (no Metrocard is dipped).

Edited by danielhg121
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19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I can see NICE wanting to no longer have both the n22 & n24 running along OCR b/w Mineola & RFM, but IMO they're choosing the wrong route split to retain doing so.... The demand is simply greater for the n22 over the n24 from RFM, due west - but they opt to stymie the EB n22 at Mineola instead.... As for those part-time/peak n15's that also run along OCR from County Seat Dr. towards RFM, there's a more efficient way to have those riders emanating from points south of the county offices have direct access to the county offices.... Having [both the n40/41 & n15 run b/w HTC & OCR] is even more wasteful than having [n22's & n24's running along OCR b/w LIRR Mineola & RFM]..... Divert a few peak hour n40/41 trips via County Seat & call it a day.... The n15 would run solely b/w HTC & Long Beach, regardless....

With the exception of reverting the N79 to go about handling an eastern split of the n24, I concur with everything you said here.... The Manetto Hill portion is spent... I would just have the n78 (with improved headways of course) panning along OCR east of Hicksville & I would extend it to Smith/rt. 110 on top of it..... If it's even worth it at this point, if they're that dead set on retaining the connection, I would relegate the n79 to a weekend only point-to-point shuttle between LIRR Hicksville & Whitman Mall (via Woodbury rd)....

 

NICE has been trying to reduce duplication on OCR since day 1. That is the reason I believe they created the n22x.

Regarding n15 along Washington and OCR. You are right. That area is served by alot of nearby bus routes on both sides (Franklin Av and Clinton Rd). Clinton Rd is already served by the n35 so n15 could really just terminate at Hempstead. It would be nice however, if the whole area had a frequent shuttle connecting all the hubs (sort of like the old n93 with Hempstead included) instead of trying to use fixed routes to "fill" in the gaps.

 

Regarding n78/79, I agree with you that there may be demand on the n78 if it traveled alittle further east. I would use the n78 to travel along LIE service Road to Walt Whitman Rd and do the former n95 loop there (WW Rd- Duryea- Maxess Rd and back to the LIE service Rd

As for n79 there are still demand to those Business park along Woodbury Rd (where n94 used to end), so I would terminate the n79 there. 

That being said, I feel like Woodbury Rd should get some sort of service as well. But without creating a whole new route, I'm not sure whats the most efficent way of serving there.

Selfishly, I will miss the conections with Suffolk County Transit at WWM though. I used that route to fan Suffolk Transit alot. Connections there are much more plentiful than Sunrise or Farmingdale.

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

My sentiment is somewhere in-between what you two are saying....

While I would do away with this whole n20G/H bit also, I wouldn't go crazy having an n20x variant skipping stops in Queens.... At the same time, while there aren't many stops b/w Glen Cove rd. & Hicksville, I would side with having n20x's or whatever making less stops b/w Middle Neck rd. & the Clock Tower (Roslyn)..... On top of it, you really didn't need the lion's share of trips off the pre-split n20 diverting to serve LIRR Great Neck either....

If you (referring to NICE bus, not you two) wanna have a couple short turns running b/w Flushing & Great Neck, cool.... My issue though is that too many of the pre-split n20 trips did that diversion to LIRR Great Neck...

I want to agree with the n22x comment, but I would take a wait & see approach with lifting the temporary discontinuation of the thing.... With the weekend n27, to be perfectly honest, if push came to shove, I'd have to side with NICEbus on that move.... After RFM, at minimum, those buses were more or less an unofficial shuttle to Northern Blvd... With the way the n27 meanders, it racks up a nice chunk of mileage b/w those two points to not be picking up or dropping off much of (sometimes literally) nobody..... If I were to restore weekend service on the n27, at best, it would run hourly & the span would be refined to afternoon hours only; say b/w noon-6pm.... Something along those lines....

I feel like if NICE diverted n20's from Great Neck and run straight on Northern Blvd from Roslyn and Hicksville, NICE will probably not provide enough service to Great Neck. So I rather NICE provide more service to great neck than not enough service, because I am sure that NICE will not add more short turns.

Regarding n27 you are exactly right about ridership along Roslyn Rd, I felt like NICE was right when they converted n27 into a shuttle btw Glen Cove and Roslyn and force everyone onto the 23. But I wouldn't even bother with that noe. Just run the n21 via Glen Cove Rd and make people transfer to the 23 at Roslyn for RF/HTC. (I would eliminate n23 from Mineola on weekends)

 

 

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Looking at the old Long Island Bus schedule, I am reminded of the fact of how much service has declined in Nassau County. 

Gone are the clockface headways, now frequencies are all over the place. Some route had significantly more service than now such as n79,n1, n19 and even the n23. While some routes that carried no ridership I don't really miss, there are routes such as n19 and n20 east of Great Neck that NICE completely destroyed and will probably never come back.

Its really a sad sight to see.  But I don't really blame NICE. 

 

Edited by Mtatransit

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I took the n20H/G combo the other day and I could see how such a routing can deter people from riding. I was afraid that I would miss the n20G, because they were both scheduled to arrive at Northern Blvd & S Middle Neck Road at the same time. Literally when me and the other 7 or 8 people were transferring onto the n20G the only thing that saved us from not missing the bus was that the bus was stuck at a light giving us time to cross the street.

Luckily the n20G isn’t too bad frequency wise but it is still annoying to miss a bus and then have to wait another 15-20 minutes for the next one. That’s why I believe that n22/n24 split is going to cost NICE more of its ridership, because having to make more transfer can be annoying but on top of that having to wait a long time for the next bus is also not favorable. Before I did the n20G/H combo I was on the n24 from Jamaica. The bus only went to Roosevelt Field which required anyone going further to transfer. When I arrived at RFM the n22 to Hicksville was scheduled to arrived in 16 minutes while the n24 to Hicksville wasn’t due to show up for 22 minutes after the bus I got off of. I find that highly unacceptable and it is no wonder that people give up on NICE. But I guess this falls primarily on Nassau itself because they were being so stingy which is why cuts and major adjustments are always being made. 

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8 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I took the n20H/G combo the other day and I could see how such a routing can deter people from riding. I was afraid that I would miss the n20G, because they were both scheduled to arrive at Northern Blvd & S Middle Neck Road at the same time. Literally when me and the other 7 or 8 people were transferring onto the n20G the only thing that saved us from not missing the bus was that the bus was stuck at a light giving us time to cross the street.

Luckily the n20G isn’t too bad frequency wise but it is still annoying to miss a bus and then have to wait another 15-20 minutes for the next one. That’s why I believe that n22/n24 split is going to cost NICE more of its ridership, because having to make more transfer can be annoying but on top of that having to wait a long time for the next bus is also not favorable. Before I did the n20G/H combo I was on the n24 from Jamaica. The bus only went to Roosevelt Field which required anyone going further to transfer. When I arrived at RFM the n22 to Hicksville was scheduled to arrived in 16 minutes while the n24 to Hicksville wasn’t due to show up for 22 minutes after the bus I got off of. I find that highly unacceptable and it is no wonder that people give up on NICE. But I guess this falls primarily on Nassau itself because they were being so stingy which is why cuts and major adjustments are always being made. 

I get the impression that the splits are more because NICE doesn't really like traversing ~75% of the old Queens County in one shot than anything else. The fact that they were running to split the n24 only several years after it ate much of the n78/79 tells me as much.

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21 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

What if they had an n20X (during rush/peak hours only), makes all stops that the n20H does up till Glen Cove Rd (there aren't many anyways and it's usually 1 passenger or two), I'll even throw in the stops until the car dealership, then it goes via Roslyn viaduct, making stops at Manhasset mall, Plandome/Shelter Rock Rd, Schenck Dr and S Middle Neck Rd/Lakeville Rd, and makes all drop-off stops in Queens? While the n20X is running, I would have a local variant (n20) that ends at Glen Cove Rd and makes all stops west that the n20G/H currently do and does not go via Roslyn viaduct. Any rider who needs a local n20 stop between Glen Cove Rd and Great Neck can transfer free of charge at Glen Cove Rd? I think it's a good balance of ridership and the n20 local picks up any slack that's left behind. Basically, this is just an extended Roslyn n20 idea and I'm not directly screwing over any intermediate ridership by keeping a free transfer (no Metrocard is dipped).

The short turning of buses at Roslyn was a deterrent for a sizable portion of n20 riders seeking service east of Great Neck back then.... They would've been much more useful if they went to Greenvale (Glen Cove rd); either Wheatley Plaza or LIRR Greenvale (to be specific) would've sufficed....

So yeah, although again, they could still have some locals running b/w Flushing & LIRR Great Neck, I would have most locals running b/w Flushing & Greenvale.... However, where we differ a little, is that I would have service running b/w Flushing & Hicksville operating as n20x's (serving stops in a fashion basically what you describe n20x's should/would do) outside of rush hours as well.... You don't necessarily need to connect folks east of Greenvale to LIRR Great Neck; I find that those riders, if not for disembarking b/w Greenvale & Manhasset, are seeking Queens.... If you were to shift the n21 to Glen Cove rd. like @Mtatransit states, well there's your direct (local) service to LIRR Great Neck from Greenvale right there....

They got trigger happy with coming out with this n20G/H crap because they had too many n20's running local between Flushing & Hicksville.... So to combat that/bring up as an alternative for, what I'm saying, in laymens:

  • n20 local service between Flushing & Greenvale (via LIRR Great Neck)
  • n20 short-turn local service b/w Flushing & LIRR Great Neck
  • n20x service b/w Flushing & Hicksville (serving all stops in Queens, bypassing all stops b/w City Line & Lakeville rd, making a select amt. of stops b/w Lakeville rd & Glen Cove rd, then serving all stops east of Greenvale, toward Hicksville)...
9 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

NICE has been trying to reduce duplication on OCR since day 1. That is the reason I believe they created the n22x.

Regarding n15 along Washington and OCR. You are right. That area is served by a lot of nearby bus routes on both sides (Franklin Av and Clinton Rd). Clinton Rd is already served by the n35 so n15 could really just terminate at Hempstead. It would be nice however, if the whole area had a frequent shuttle connecting all the hubs (sort of like the old n93 with Hempstead included) instead of trying to use fixed routes to "fill" in the gaps.

That's the reason I believe they created the n22L (reducing duplication along OCR).... I believe they created the n22x to chip chip chip away at the amount of trips running (locally) between Jamaica & Hicksville - including (their) justification for short turning buses at Mineola from Jamaica....

With the n15, demand for OCR is basically non-existent (even for that Country Glen shopping center, or w/e it's called)... People take those n15's from RFM for no other reason that it's "just another n15" that's going to Hempstead & points south; they just put up with it..... Worse than that, after picking up (SB) / dropping off (NB) at the county offices after the fact, they transport nobody along the Garden City side of Washington st; which comprises most of that street itself... People on the Hempstead side of Washington st. do use the thing though, I will say that much.... But I would still do away with that branch of the n15, as the closer you get to Hempstead, the closer Clinton st. gets to Washington st..... So it wouldn't decimate anyone seeking n15's in Hempstead along Washington st., since Clinton is basically right there....

I can't agree with the downtown circulator (or w/e you wanna call it) concept though.... No different than the genius (I forget dude's name on here) some odd years ago that suggested and/or co-signed terminating all the routes that serve Downtown Brooklyn around Atlantic Terminal & having a circulator transport people into the "heart" of Downtown... It's a counter-productively lazy form of route planning AFAIC...

9 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Regarding n78/79, I agree with you that there may be demand on the n78 if it traveled a little further east. I would use the n78 to travel along LIE service Road to Walt Whitman Rd and do the former n95 loop there (WW Rd- Duryea- Maxess Rd and back to the LIE service Rd

As for n79 there are still demand to those Business park along Woodbury Rd (where n94 used to end), so I would terminate the n79 there. 

That being said, I feel like Woodbury Rd should get some sort of service as well. But without creating a whole new route, I'm not sure whats the most efficent way of serving there.

Selfishly, I will miss the conections with Suffolk County Transit at WWM though. I used that route to fan Suffolk Transit a lot. Connections there are much more plentiful than Sunrise or Farmingdale.

I feel like if NICE diverted n20's from Great Neck and run straight on Northern Blvd from Roslyn and Hicksville, NICE will probably not provide enough service to Great Neck. So I rather NICE provide more service to great neck than not enough service, because I am sure that NICE will not add more short turns.

Regarding n27 you are exactly right about ridership along Roslyn Rd, I felt like NICE was right when they converted n27 into a shuttle btw Glen Cove and Roslyn and force everyone onto the 23. But I wouldn't even bother with that now. Just run the n21 via Glen Cove Rd and make people transfer to the 23 at Roslyn for RF/HTC. (I would eliminate n23 from Mineola on weekends)

I was livid when they discontinued the N95... That route used to be crushloaded.

Oh, I agree that there's demand for those business parks - thing is, you don't necessarily have to bring people to those business parks via Manetto Hill to just to keep the n79 around.... I guess what I'm ultimately getting at, is that you don't need two routes along OCR, east of Hicksville.... See, the N79 used to be my favorite LIB route & I used to fan it like crazy - so this is how I can unhesitatingly mention that it used to consistently pick up a decent amt. of pax. along Manetto Hill rd & along Jericho Tpke. in South Huntington as well.... It is crazy how both of those respective usage's evaporated....

Anyway, being that you brought up the old N94, I would be more inclined to using parts of that route to construct a Hicksville - Syosset route, instead of doing it through the current n79.... People like to bring up the lack of bus service in Oyster Bay, but I believe there's far more a palpable latent demand for bus service to/from Syosset.... I would use current n79 resources to creating a route of sorts (Hicksville - Syosset).... Furthermore, one of the reasons I would run n78's to rt. 110 is to connect people to the S1 - much like for how most people use the n70 out there.... Of course, if LIRR Farmingdale was situated at rt. 110, it would be less of a issue.... The maps do you no justice; makes it seem like LIRR Farmingdale from commercial rt. 110 is walkable - but it's anything but....

You're probably right with NICE going too far if they were to decrease the amount of n20's (if they were to do away with this n20G/H shit) to LIRR Great Neck - but at the same time, I still think there's too much n20 service diverting there overall..... To help mitigate it, with the way NICE operates the n58 now, I would break its operations up - [The n58 trips that run straight to USMMC, I would combine with the n21] & [The n58 trips that run to USMMC via Kings Point loop, I would turn into a loop route that wouldn't serve USMMC - terminating only at LIRR Great Neck].... Instead, NICE interlines the n21 with the n20G & they interline some of those n58 trips that go straight to USMMC with the n25.....

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4 hours ago, Lex said:

I get the impression that the splits are more because NICE doesn't really like traversing ~75% of the old Queens County in one shot than anything else. The fact that they were running to split the n24 only several years after it ate much of the n78/79 tells me as much.

That’s why I believe they should have left the n24 & n78/79 alone. They extended the n24 to Hicksville a few years back just to split it at RFM recently. This is why people are just finding alternatives. You literally never know what will happen to your bus route with NICE in town. One minute it’s flourishing the next minute it has rush hour only service. NICE has messed up the n78/79’s ridership, and I’m sure the n22 and n24 has seen a decrease as well. 

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Exactly - Just like every other #6 train goes to Pelham Bay Park during rush-hour, they should do the same with the N20, N22 and n24 (every other bus runs the full route). 

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22 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

That’s why I believe they should have left the n24 & n78/79 alone. They extended the n24 to Hicksville a few years back just to split it at RFM recently. This is why people are just finding alternatives. You literally never know what will happen to your bus route with NICE in town. One minute it’s flourishing the next minute it has rush hour only service. NICE has messed up the n78/79’s ridership, and I’m sure the n22 and n24 has seen a decrease as well. 

The swap by itself made sense (the N78/79 used to tank at LIRR Hicksville from the east & carried way more air west of Hicksville than the n24 does east of RFM towards Hicksville) - the problem was that NICE went off the deep end by turning both the n78/79 into barebone-serviced, peak only routes as part of that whole plan.... If for anything else, they could've had n78's running peak only (out to that light industrial/business park area around Newtown rd.) & maintaining the prior service span of the N79 up to Whitman mall... That is what decimated the n78/79, not the fact that it no longer served RFM & Mineola....

Also, those Reckson bldg. n24's had to go.... It took NICE a good while to finally wash their hands with those trips...

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On 1/15/2021 at 8:18 AM, B35 via Church said:

I can't agree with the downtown circulator (or w/e you wanna call it) concept though.... No different than the genius (I forget dude's name on here) some odd years ago that suggested and/or co-signed terminating all the routes that serve Downtown Brooklyn around Atlantic Terminal & having a circulator transport people into the "heart" of Downtown... It's a counter-productively lazy form of route planning AFAIC...

Oh, I agree that there's demand for those business parks - thing is, you don't necessarily have to bring people to those business parks via Manetto Hill to just to keep the n79 around.... I guess what I'm ultimately getting at, is that you don't need two routes along OCR, east of Hicksville.... See, the N79 used to be my favorite LIB route & I used to fan it like crazy - so this is how I can unhesitatingly mention that it used to consistently pick up a decent amt. of pax. along Manetto Hill rd & along Jericho Tpke. in South Huntington as well.... It is crazy how both of those respective usage's evaporated....

Anyway, being that you brought up the old N94, I would be more inclined to using parts of that route to construct a Hicksville - Syosset route, instead of doing it through the current n79.... People like to bring up the lack of bus service in Oyster Bay, but I believe there's far more a palpable latent demand for bus service to/from Syosset.... I would use current n79 resources to creating a route of sorts (Hicksville - Syosset).... Furthermore, one of the reasons I would run n78's to rt. 110 is to connect people to the S1 - much like for how most people use the n70 out there.... Of course, if LIRR Farmingdale was situated at rt. 110, it would be less of a issue.... The maps do you no justice; makes it seem like LIRR Farmingdale from commercial rt. 110 is walkable - but it's anything but....

You're probably right with NICE going too far if they were to decrease the amount of n20's (if they were to do away with this n20G/H shit) to LIRR Great Neck - but at the same time, I still think there's too much n20 service diverting there overall..... To help mitigate it, with the way NICE operates the n58 now, I would break its operations up - [The n58 trips that run straight to USMMC, I would combine with the n21] & [The n58 trips that run to USMMC via Kings Point loop, I would turn into a loop route that wouldn't serve USMMC - terminating only at LIRR Great Neck].... Instead, NICE interlines the n21 with the n20G & they interline some of those n58 trips that go straight to USMMC with the n25.....

The primary purpose of the Hub shuttle would be to connect that whole area NCC, Charles Lindberg, and Hofstra with the LIRR at Mineola and buses at Hempstead. NICE and (LIB) does a good job of connecting these places from Hempstead, but there is nothing from Mineola. I would think that there are demand from Queens to the general area, considering the fact that NICE tried with the n6x to NCC and again with the n16J to Jamaica. If the RR and NICE would work together with the fares (a big if) , it might work. Its better than running empty n16J all the way to Jamaica. 

I guess my prupose for keeping the n79 short turns to those business parks is to provide additional service along Old Country Rd without adding more n78.

I never understood the obsession with serving Oyster Bay. The route up to Oyster Bay has almost nothing in between, and the people living in those general won't bother using it anyways. (People in Syosset probably won't use it as much as well but aleast there is some commercial activity up there)

Regarding the route to Syosset, the most straight forward routing will be run it via Woodbury Rd, to S Oyster Bay Rd all the way to the RR station. But if we were to can the n79, and continue to serve the business park, we would probably need to create a route very similar to the n94. via Woodbury Rd from Hicksville to Jerchio Turnpike where the n79 turns right towards WWM, I would have the route turn left and backtrack along Jerchio turnpike back to S Oyster Bay Rd and continue north to Syosset. Its a very indirect route, but it provides coverage.

On 1/15/2021 at 12:05 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

That’s why I believe they should have left the n24 & n78/79 alone. They extended the n24 to Hicksville a few years back just to split it at RFM recently. This is why people are just finding alternatives. You literally never know what will happen to your bus route with NICE in town. One minute it’s flourishing the next minute it has rush hour only service. NICE has messed up the n78/79’s ridership, and I’m sure the n22 and n24 has seen a decrease as well. 

NICE ironically screwed the n24 now more than if they left the n78/79. To be honest I think people now WALK from the stop the bus makes before turning into Roosevelt Field instead of transferring. 

The good news is that it seems that NICE has stabilized, so we will not see the route cuttings we seen in 2016,2017. Now they have "schedule adjustments" (cutting one trip at a time)

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The swap by itself made sense (the N78/79 used to tank at LIRR Hicksville from the east & carried way more air west of Hicksville than the n24 does east of RFM towards Hicksville) - the problem was that NICE went off the deep end by turning both the n78/79 into barebone-serviced, peak only routes as part of that whole plan.... If for anything else, they could've had n78's running peak only (out to that light industrial/business park area around Newtown rd.) & maintaining the prior service span of the N79 up to Whitman mall... That is what decimated the n78/79, not the fact that it no longer served RFM & Mineola....

I believe n78/79 was cut five years after the April 8th cut which was when the n24 was extended to Hicksville. During that period, I believe NICE did exactly what you mentioned, which was to reduce the n78 to rush hours only and maintained the n79. 

In 2017, they were planning to cut n1 weekend, n78/79 and n19 completely. They compromised and gave back service on the n19 and n79 during rush hours only. Now those ridership is completely gone. To be honest I think if they ran the n78 properly, they could salvage the remains of the ridership along OCR.

Edited by Mtatransit

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5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The swap by itself made sense (the N78/79 used to tank at LIRR Hicksville from the east & carried way more air west of Hicksville than the n24 does east of RFM towards Hicksville) - the problem was that NICE went off the deep end by turning both the n78/79 into barebone-serviced, peak only routes as part of that whole plan.... If for anything else, they could've had n78's running peak only (out to that light industrial/business park area around Newtown rd.) & maintaining the prior service span of the N79 up to Whitman mall... That is what decimated the n78/79, not the fact that it no longer served RFM & Mineola....

Also, those Reckson bldg. n24's had to go.... It took NICE a good while to finally wash their hands with those trips...

I think what makes things worse is that these routes have irregular headway’s so you cannot even say that a bus comes every 30 minutes and etc. Having irregular headway is something I noticed a lot of  NICE’s system. But back to the n78/n79, I’m afraid that this barebones service that NICE gave the two routes will eventually set these routes up for elimination one day. I feel like the n19 and the n80 will also suffer the same fate too. 


I’m guessing those n24 trips to East Meadow carried air past Roosevelt Field. What was the purpose of it going there in the first place? I’m not too familiar with Nassau so I don’t even know what the Reckson Building is. 

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

The primary purpose of the Hub shuttle would be to connect that whole area NCC, Charles Lindberg, and Hofstra with the LIRR at Mineola and buses at Hempstead. NICE and (LIB) does a good job of connecting these places from Hempstead, but there is nothing from Mineola. I would think that there are demand from Queens to the general area, considering the fact that NICE tried with the n6x to NCC and again with the n16J to Jamaica. If the RR and NICE would work together with the fares (a big if) , it might work. Its better than running empty n16J all the way to Jamaica. 

I guess my prupose for keeping the n79 short turns to those business parks is to provide additional service along Old Country Rd without adding more n78.

I never understood the obsession with serving Oyster Bay. The route up to Oyster Bay has almost nothing in between, and the people living in those general won't bother using it anyways. (People in Syosset probably won't use it as much as well but aleast there is some commercial activity up there)

Regarding the route to Syosset, the most straight forward routing will be run it via Woodbury Rd, to S Oyster Bay Rd all the way to the RR station. But if we were to can the n79, and continue to serve the business park, we would probably need to create a route very similar to the n94. via Woodbury Rd from Hicksville to Jerchio Turnpike where the n79 turns right towards WWM, I would have the route turn left and backtrack along Jerchio turnpike back to S Oyster Bay Rd and continue north to Syosset. Its a very indirect route, but it provides coverage.

NICE ironically screwed the n24 now more than if they left the n78/79. To be honest I think people now WALK from the stop the bus makes before turning into Roosevelt Field instead of transferring. 

The good news is that it seems that NICE has stabilized, so we will not see the route cuttings we seen in 2016,2017. Now they have "schedule adjustments" (cutting one trip at a time)

I believe n78/79 was cut five years after the April 8th cut which was when the n24 was extended to Hicksville. During that period, I believe NICE did exactly what you mentioned, which was to reduce the n78 to rush hours only and maintained the n79. 

In 2017, they were planning to cut n1 weekend, n78/79 and n19 completely. They compromised and gave back service on the n19 and n79 during rush hours only. Now those ridership is completely gone. To be honest I think if they ran the n78 properly, they could salvage the remains of the ridership along OCR.

I’m glad they didn’t cut the n1 because it does get ridership. I do think the route should go to Jamaica during the PM rush hour.

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Took a ride out there on NICE yesterday. Some observations I noticed

They renamed the Mineola Intermodal Center into Mineola Bus Terminal. Looks like they realized not much people used it as an "intermodal center" (maybe between taxis and LIRR)

Runs are actually early! I was surprised. Usually NICE does not give enough time, but buses were actually early or exactly on time!

When did n6 bus became so infrequent at night. 25 minute between buses after 7PM come on. The buses were a full seated load by the time it got out of Hempstead Transit Center. Luckily there were alot of intermediate offs, so the bus never had more than 5-6 standees.

On 1/18/2021 at 2:59 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I think what makes things worse is that these routes have irregular headway’s so you cannot even say that a bus comes every 30 minutes and etc. Having irregular headway is something I noticed a lot of  NICE’s system. But back to the n78/n79, I’m afraid that this barebones service that NICE gave the two routes will eventually set these routes up for elimination one day. I feel like the n19 and the n80 will also suffer the same fate too. 


I’m guessing those n24 trips to East Meadow carried air past Roosevelt Field. What was the purpose of it going there in the first place? I’m not too familiar with Nassau so I don’t even know what the Reckson Building is. 

Most likely those trips to down to East Meadows on the n24 were (like a lot of NICE's route) from an era where Nassau County residents actually used the buses.

The (MTA) really spoiled us with their clockface schedules. I'm guessing its more efficient to "keep the bus " moving and keeping layovers to the contract minimum,  instead of rounding up to the nearest 5-10 minutes

Edited by Mtatransit

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On 1/16/2021 at 3:05 PM, Mtatransit said:

The primary purpose of the Hub shuttle would be to connect that whole area NCC, Charles Lindberg, and Hofstra with the LIRR at Mineola and buses at Hempstead. NICE and (LIB) does a good job of connecting these places from Hempstead, but there is nothing from Mineola. I would think that there are demand from Queens to the general area, considering the fact that NICE tried with the n6x to NCC and again with the n16J to Jamaica. If the RR and NICE would work together with the fares (a big if) , it might work. Its better than running empty n16J all the way to Jamaica. 

I guess my prupose for keeping the n79 short turns to those business parks is to provide additional service along Old Country Rd without adding more n78.

I never understood the obsession with serving Oyster Bay. The route up to Oyster Bay has almost nothing in between, and the people living in those general won't bother using it anyways. (People in Syosset probably won't use it as much as well but aleast there is some commercial activity up there)

Regarding the route to Syosset, the most straight forward routing will be run it via Woodbury Rd, to S Oyster Bay Rd all the way to the RR station. But if we were to can the n79, and continue to serve the business park, we would probably need to create a route very similar to the n94. via Woodbury Rd from Hicksville to Jerchio Turnpike where the n79 turns right towards WWM, I would have the route turn left and backtrack along Jerchio turnpike back to S Oyster Bay Rd and continue north to Syosset. Its a very indirect route, but it provides coverage.

What you're describing with such a shuttle is basically a combination of [the northern portion of the n16 (HTC - RFM)] & [a Mineola version of the northern portion of the n16]..... While I do think something from Mineola should perhaps go OCR - Franklin - Stewart - then take on the n16 routing b/w RFM & the Social Services bldg. (60 Charles Lindbergh), I don't think that route should run to Hempstead - given that the n16 already serves those areas you mention.... I would end such a route either somewhere around the Hempstead Tpke. side of Hofstra, or further east along Hempstead Tpke. on over to Newbridge rd.... Regardless of its terminal on the eastern end, I would not have it operating as a shuttle....

The n6x extension to NCC & this n16J bit were pie in the sky ideas that were predicated on the notion that there's this significant amt. of latent demand from city residents, to NCC..... We saw how both those ideas worked out; so to compare any modern day Nassau Hub shuttle idea to it, isn't saying much... Lol.

As for a Syosset route, that is exactly what I was pondering.... It's going to need that coverage....

On 1/18/2021 at 2:59 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I think what makes things worse is that these routes have irregular headway’s so you cannot even say that a bus comes every 30 minutes and etc. Having irregular headway is something I noticed a lot of NICE’s system. But back to the n78/n79, I’m afraid that this barebones service that NICE gave the two routes will eventually set these routes up for elimination one day. I feel like the n19 and the n80 will also suffer the same fate too.

What it boils down to (besides fiscal matters) is that the overall network in & of itself is too HTC centric & too "inter-county" centric.... The demand for the latter is obvious, but the demand for Hempstead, outside of the terminal itself, is grossly overrated/over-glorified.... Riders are not clamoring to get to Hempstead like that, outside of for other bus connections.... Note the amount of people that disembark either [short of HTC, within Hempstead] and/or [at HTC itself, that actually leave the terminal to walk to some ultimate destination within Hempstead].... You'll find that it is very low.

...now compare that to the amt. of people that take buses to/from RFM [that are seeking the mall itself] vs. [looking to xfer to/from some other bus route].

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