nostalgia Posted March 19, 2012 Share #1 Posted March 19, 2012 I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound. On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted March 19, 2012 Share #2 Posted March 19, 2012 I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound. On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn. :confused: there are dual mode locomotives, the locomotives that are numbered 500-522. Look on the Schedule for the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches. If it goes to Penn without a J next to the time or a T or an H near the times of the eastern end of the line's stations, it's a dual mode train inside penn station. Only a few rush hour trains do this. The rest of the diesel trains, if they arent originating in Jamaica, Huntington, or Babylon start at Long Island City or Hunterspoint Ave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregorygrice Posted March 20, 2012 Share #3 Posted March 20, 2012 Third rail power on MNRR Diesels are only used in GCT. As soon as the train gets out the tunnels the diedel engine is turned on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted March 20, 2012 Share #4 Posted March 20, 2012 Third rail power on MNRR Diesels are only used in GCT. As soon as the train gets out the tunnels the diedel engine is turned on. so they go to diesel power as soon as they come out of the Park Avenue tunnel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregorygrice Posted March 20, 2012 Share #5 Posted March 20, 2012 so they go to diesel power as soon as they come out of the Park Avenue tunnel? That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share #6 Posted March 20, 2012 That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on. But there's a big difference between Penn Station and Grand Central. Electrification ends at about MP 2 from Penn Station so the diesel engines have to come on for propulsion. Electrification extends to Pelham on the New Haven line and Croton Harmon on the Hudson line so it doesn't make any sense to burn gasoline when electricity is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted March 20, 2012 Share #7 Posted March 20, 2012 MNR: The diesels are turned on as soon as they can. They are mechanically not designed for long distances in E-mode. LIRR: The diesels are turned on when leaving the tunnels and off at Jamaica. They are mechanically designed for long distances in E-mode, but that practice was discontinued pretty quickly after that fire with 503 and a shopping cart. DM's in E-mode simply draw too much current per shoe which makes the typical arcing many times more dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share #8 Posted March 20, 2012 That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on. MNR: The diesels are turned on as soon as they can. They are mechanically not designed for long distances in E-mode. LIRR: The diesels are turned on when leaving the tunnels and off at Jamaica. They are mechanically designed for long distances in E-mode, but that practice was discontinued pretty quickly after that fire with 503 and a shopping cart. DM's in E-mode simply draw too much current per shoe which makes the typical arcing many times more dangerous. Thanks for filling in the blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregorygrice Posted March 20, 2012 Share #9 Posted March 20, 2012 But there's a big difference between Penn Station and Grand Central. Electrification ends at about MP 2 from Penn Station so the diesel engines have to come on for propulsion. Electrification extends to Pelham on the New Haven line and Croton Harmon on the Hudson line so it doesn't make any sense to burn gasoline when electricity is available. That's not the point. All Empire Corridor trains turn diesel on after leaving Penn Station. The electric third rail is mainly there for MUs. As stated most of the engines are not deisigned for long distance E Mode. This also explains why most of Track 1 on the Hudson Line has no third rail because it is mainly used my diesels. LIRR can't afford to have another 503 incident because DMs are no longer under EMD warranty because they are modified by LIRR. The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted March 20, 2012 Share #10 Posted March 20, 2012 The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them. What? I thought the DM's were delivered with the third rail equipment already on them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregorygrice Posted March 20, 2012 Share #11 Posted March 20, 2012 What? I thought the DM's were delivered with the third rail equipment already on them... Nope, LIRR installed equipment. That's way 503 was stripped for parts instead of being sent back and rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share #12 Posted March 21, 2012 That's not the point. All Empire Corridor trains turn diesel on after leaving Penn Station. The electric third rail is mainly there for MUs. As stated most of the engines are not deisigned for long distance E Mode. This also explains why most of Track 1 on the Hudson Line has no third rail because it is mainly used my diesels. LIRR can't afford to have another 503 incident because DMs are no longer under EMD warranty because they are modified by LIRR. The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them. I have no idea what the 503 incident is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted March 21, 2012 Share #13 Posted March 21, 2012 I have no idea what the 503 incident is. DM in electric mode struck a shopping cart. Because it was in electric mode, the large arc created set the locomotive on fire. The engine has been out of service since and has been stripped for parts in Morris Park. Somebody has the exact date, but it was in the early 2000's when the engines were very new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Express Posted March 21, 2012 Share #14 Posted March 21, 2012 Never seen this on amtrak. I got to ride in the cab of a dual mode P32 Metro North. Pretty sweet. Got to sit in the driver's seat too, change it from electric, to diesel, and back to electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt91 Posted March 29, 2012 Share #15 Posted March 29, 2012 I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound. On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn. :confused: There are quite a few: see below. The changeover point for the DM's is QUEENS going westbound (just east of Queens Village) and HAROLD going eastbound (where the Port Wash branch and Amtrak diverge). IIRC the changeover used to be at NASSAU (Mineola) for westbounds. there are dual mode locomotives, the locomotives that are numbered 500-522. Look on the Schedule for the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches. If it goes to Penn without a J next to the time or a T or an H near the times of the eastern end of the line's stations, it's a dual mode train inside penn station. Only a few rush hour trains do this. The rest of the diesel trains, if they arent originating in Jamaica, Huntington, or Babylon start at Long Island City or Hunterspoint Ave. The regularly scheduled DM runs are: Montauk Branch: 2733 (5:08 Speonk due Penn 7:02), 2737 (6:21 Speonk due Penn 8:23), and 2734 (5:09 Penn due Speonk 7:13) Oyster Bay Branch: 503 (5:50 OB due Penn 7:06) and 564 (6:16 Penn due OB 7:30) Port Jeff Branch: 605 (5:44 PJ due Penn 7:20), 615 (7:35 PJ due Penn 9:24), 658 (4:19 Penn due PJ 6:05) and 660 (4:49 Penn due PJ 6:36) Occasionally a DM will substitute for electric equipment for 1105 (8:10 from Freeport) or 1107 (8:25 from Freeport) if there's a problem with turning equipment for those runs, or they'll extend one of the extra Montauk Summer Westbounds into Penn if it's a double ended DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VII 4 Life Posted March 29, 2012 Share #16 Posted March 29, 2012 Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be. Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregorygrice Posted March 29, 2012 Share #17 Posted March 29, 2012 DM in electric mode struck a shopping cart. Because it was in electric mode, the large arc created set the locomotive on fire. The engine has been out of service since and has been stripped for parts in Morris Park. Somebody has the exact date, but it was in the early 2000's when the engines were very new. It was stripped instead of rebuilt because the mods on DMs break EMD's warranty Never seen this on amtrak. I got to ride in the cab of a dual mode P32 Metro North. Pretty sweet. Got to sit in the driver's seat too, change it from electric, to diesel, and back to electric. Not to be mean, but unless you're a crew/ RR employee you shouldn't post that you got a cab ride. Crews get scrutinized for these things. Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be. Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there. East Side Access is FAR from complete, and will mainly serve electric MU traffic, which is the main reason for LIRR ordering the M9s soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt91 Posted March 29, 2012 Share #18 Posted March 29, 2012 Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be. Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there. The double ended requirement may be because when the DMs hit a 3rd rail gap, they go into dynamic braking. And GCT can't have DMs, not enough clearance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveragejoe Posted April 3, 2012 Share #19 Posted April 3, 2012 The double ended requirement may be because when the DMs hit a 3rd rail gap, they go into dynamic braking. And GCT can't have DMs, not enough clearance It is cause of the large gaps in the 3rd rail is why they double end the sets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share #20 Posted April 3, 2012 It is cause of the large gaps in the 3rd rail is why they double end the sets I'm confused. Here's a photo of a DM515 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LIRR_EMD_DM30AC_515_pushing_Train_8054.jpg I see cab at only ONE end of the pushing diesel. (There may be operating controls at the other end.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveragejoe Posted April 3, 2012 Share #21 Posted April 3, 2012 I'm confused. Here's a photo of a DM515 http://en.wikipedia...._Train_8054.jpg I see cab at only ONE end of the pushing diesel. (There may be operating controls at the other end.) look at that photo again, you can see the other DM at the other end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share #22 Posted April 3, 2012 look at that photo again, you can see the other DM at the other end! Now I understand my confusion. My definition of "double ended" is not how it's used in this thread. My definition of "double ended" is two operating cabs at opposite ends on the same locomotive, as on an Amtrak AEM-7. In the context of this thread, "double ended" means on both sides of the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted April 3, 2012 Share #23 Posted April 3, 2012 they are techincly "double ended" by your definition, your looking at the wrong side of the train. they were built with hostler stands at the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303193 Posted June 6, 2012 Share #24 Posted June 6, 2012 It is cause of the large gaps in the 3rd rail is why they double end the sets That is one reason, barely a reason actually."Gaps" between available third rails aren't a factor as crews are trained to carry enough power to coast from one third rail to the next after crossing multiple tracks. The main reason is the engines themselves will still use diesel power if only one unit is connected to a trainset, with two units the train is running on 100% DC power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted June 6, 2012 Share #25 Posted June 6, 2012 The problem with the LIRR DM's is that when an engine gaps out on the third rail, it goes into dynamic braking automatically, slowing the train down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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