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nostalgia

Running diesels in electrified territory

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I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound.

 

On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn.

 

:confused:

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I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound.

 

On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn.

 

:confused:

 

there are dual mode locomotives, the locomotives that are numbered 500-522. Look on the Schedule for the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches.

 

If it goes to Penn without a J next to the time or a T or an H near the times of the eastern end of the line's stations, it's a dual mode train inside penn station. Only a few rush hour trains do this. The rest of the diesel trains, if they arent originating in Jamaica, Huntington, or Babylon start at Long Island City or Hunterspoint Ave.

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Third rail power on MNRR Diesels are only used in GCT. As soon as the train gets out the tunnels the diedel engine is turned on.

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Third rail power on MNRR Diesels are only used in GCT. As soon as the train gets out the tunnels the diedel engine is turned on.

 

so they go to diesel power as soon as they come out of the Park Avenue tunnel?

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so they go to diesel power as soon as they come out of the Park Avenue tunnel?

 

That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on.

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That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on.

 

But there's a big difference between Penn Station and Grand Central. Electrification ends at about MP 2 from Penn Station so the diesel engines have to come on for propulsion. Electrification extends to Pelham on the New Haven line and Croton Harmon on the Hudson line so it doesn't make any sense to burn gasoline when electricity is available.

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MNR: The diesels are turned on as soon as they can. They are mechanically not designed for long distances in E-mode.

 

LIRR: The diesels are turned on when leaving the tunnels and off at Jamaica. They are mechanically designed for long distances in E-mode, but that practice was discontinued pretty quickly after that fire with 503 and a shopping cart.

 

DM's in E-mode simply draw too much current per shoe which makes the typical arcing many times more dangerous.

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That is correct. Same with Amtraks P32s. As soon as they leave Penn Diesel is turned on.

 

MNR: The diesels are turned on as soon as they can. They are mechanically not designed for long distances in E-mode.

 

LIRR: The diesels are turned on when leaving the tunnels and off at Jamaica. They are mechanically designed for long distances in E-mode, but that practice was discontinued pretty quickly after that fire with 503 and a shopping cart.

 

DM's in E-mode simply draw too much current per shoe which makes the typical arcing many times more dangerous.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks.

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But there's a big difference between Penn Station and Grand Central. Electrification ends at about MP 2 from Penn Station so the diesel engines have to come on for propulsion. Electrification extends to Pelham on the New Haven line and Croton Harmon on the Hudson line so it doesn't make any sense to burn gasoline when electricity is available.

 

That's not the point. All Empire Corridor trains turn diesel on after leaving Penn Station. The electric third rail is mainly there for MUs. As stated most of the engines are not deisigned for long distance E Mode. This also explains why most of Track 1 on the Hudson Line has no third rail because it is mainly used my diesels. LIRR can't afford to have another 503 incident because DMs are no longer under EMD warranty because they are modified by LIRR. The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them.

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The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them.

 

What? I thought the DM's were delivered with the third rail equipment already on them...

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What? I thought the DM's were delivered with the third rail equipment already on them...

 

Nope, LIRR installed equipment. That's way 503 was stripped for parts instead of being sent back and rebuilt.

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That's not the point. All Empire Corridor trains turn diesel on after leaving Penn Station. The electric third rail is mainly there for MUs. As stated most of the engines are not deisigned for long distance E Mode. This also explains why most of Track 1 on the Hudson Line has no third rail because it is mainly used my diesels. LIRR can't afford to have another 503 incident because DMs are no longer under EMD warranty because they are modified by LIRR. The third rail equipment on DMs void EMD's warranty because it wasn't built nor installed by them.

 

I have no idea what the 503 incident is.

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I have no idea what the 503 incident is.

 

DM in electric mode struck a shopping cart. Because it was in electric mode, the large arc created set the locomotive on fire. The engine has been out of service since and has been stripped for parts in Morris Park.

 

Somebody has the exact date, but it was in the early 2000's when the engines were very new.

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Never seen this on amtrak.

 

I got to ride in the cab of a dual mode P32 Metro North. Pretty sweet. Got to sit in the driver's seat too, change it from electric, to diesel, and back to electric.

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I know on the New Haven line the AC/DC changeover is between Mount Vernon East and Pelham. When do the dual mode diesels change between DC and diesel? It would seem to energy efficient to run the diesels in DC mode until the electrification ends but I'm sure I hear them growling at Harlem outbound.

 

On the LIRR, are there any trains with dual mode engines that operate into Penn? I've never seen any operate inside Penn.

 

:confused:

 

 

There are quite a few: see below. The changeover point for the DM's is QUEENS going westbound (just east of Queens Village) and HAROLD going eastbound (where the Port Wash branch and Amtrak diverge). IIRC the changeover used to be at NASSAU (Mineola) for westbounds.

 

there are dual mode locomotives, the locomotives that are numbered 500-522. Look on the Schedule for the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches.

 

If it goes to Penn without a J next to the time or a T or an H near the times of the eastern end of the line's stations, it's a dual mode train inside penn station. Only a few rush hour trains do this. The rest of the diesel trains, if they arent originating in Jamaica, Huntington, or Babylon start at Long Island City or Hunterspoint Ave.

 

 

The regularly scheduled DM runs are:

 

Montauk Branch: 2733 (5:08 Speonk due Penn 7:02), 2737 (6:21 Speonk due Penn 8:23), and 2734 (5:09 Penn due Speonk 7:13)

Oyster Bay Branch: 503 (5:50 OB due Penn 7:06) and 564 (6:16 Penn due OB 7:30)

Port Jeff Branch: 605 (5:44 PJ due Penn 7:20), 615 (7:35 PJ due Penn 9:24), 658 (4:19 Penn due PJ 6:05) and 660 (4:49 Penn due PJ 6:36)

 

Occasionally a DM will substitute for electric equipment for 1105 (8:10 from Freeport) or 1107 (8:25 from Freeport) if there's a problem with turning equipment for those runs, or they'll extend one of the extra Montauk Summer Westbounds into Penn if it's a double ended DM

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Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be.

 

Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there.

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DM in electric mode struck a shopping cart. Because it was in electric mode, the large arc created set the locomotive on fire. The engine has been out of service since and has been stripped for parts in Morris Park.

 

Somebody has the exact date, but it was in the early 2000's when the engines were very new.

 

 

It was stripped instead of rebuilt because the mods on DMs break EMD's warranty

 

Never seen this on amtrak.

 

I got to ride in the cab of a dual mode P32 Metro North. Pretty sweet. Got to sit in the driver's seat too, change it from electric, to diesel, and back to electric.

 

 

Not to be mean, but unless you're a crew/ RR employee you shouldn't post that you got a cab ride. Crews get scrutinized for these things.

 

 

 

Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be.

 

Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there.

 

 

East Side Access is FAR from complete, and will mainly serve electric MU traffic, which is the main reason for LIRR ordering the M9s soon.

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Kinda off topic, why does Amtrak require LIRR's DMs into Penn to be double ended? Amtrak's don't have to be.

 

Anyway, I assume after East Side Access is complete, they'll be able to have more DM runs to GCT since Amtrak's restrictions won't apply there.

 

 

The double ended requirement may be because when the DMs hit a 3rd rail gap, they go into dynamic braking. And GCT can't have DMs, not enough clearance

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The double ended requirement may be because when the DMs hit a 3rd rail gap, they go into dynamic braking. And GCT can't have DMs, not enough clearance

 

 

It is cause of the large gaps in the 3rd rail is why they double end the sets

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look at that photo again, you can see the other DM at the other end!

 

 

Now I understand my confusion. My definition of "double ended" is not how it's used in this thread. My definition of "double ended" is two operating cabs at opposite ends on the same locomotive, as on an Amtrak AEM-7. In the context of this thread, "double ended" means on both sides of the train.

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they are techincly "double ended" by your definition, your looking at the wrong side of the train. they were built with hostler stands at the rear.

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It is cause of the large gaps in the 3rd rail is why they double end the sets

 

 

That is one reason, barely a reason actually."Gaps" between available third rails aren't a factor as crews are trained to carry enough power to coast from one third rail to the next after crossing multiple tracks.

 

The main reason is the engines themselves will still use diesel power if only one unit is connected to a trainset, with two units the train is running on 100% DC power.

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The problem with the LIRR DM's is that when an engine gaps out on the third rail, it goes into dynamic braking automatically, slowing the train down.

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