Jump to content

Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
EE Broadway Local

LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

I think so as well..  Logically it makes sense I just don't have the Math to Verify (TPH ect).  I've gotten pushback on the idea mostly on Premise of the East River tubes being at capacity. But in my mind if you added to more two more tubes on the Hudson side. And locked 2 tracks for each direction I don't see the issue.  Take a few tracks out at Penn and widen the platforms that should cut on dwele times.  Where the trains go? Some to Sunnyside , Jamaica, Huntspoint? Secaucus, Newark Penn? Seems workable again i'd have to understand headways And scheduling I can probably run a simulation from that. 

 

I'm thinking that these trains can replace existing NJT trains between Secaucus and Penn, and Existing LIRR trains between Penn Station and Jamaica, it'll be a more efficient use of track capacity. Run the thru service, and people can make connections to whatever branch they need at the normal transfer points. I mean if using Secaucus as a terminal is a problem they can they can have a train go from Trenton to Jamaica, or say a "Beach Train" in the summer that goes from Bay Head, NJ on the North Jersey Coast Line to Long Beach, NY

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I've seen a few trains over the years they seemed Moderately full.. maybe 60-75% full. Maybe it was an operation thing? Crew Scheduling?

Not sure of the exact reason but heard it was something on NJT's end.  Crew scheduling on MNR's side was covered on the extra list.  I don't know how NJT handled their scheduling.  It was their rolling stock used .  Might have been something with equipment cycles.  Again, can't say for sure.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Truckie said:

Not sure of the exact reason but heard it was something on NJT's end.  Crew scheduling on MNR's side was covered on the extra list.  I don't know how NJT handled their scheduling.  It was their rolling stock used .  Might have been something with equipment cycles.  Again, can't say for sure.

5 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I've seen a few trains over the years they seemed Moderately full.. maybe 60-75% full. Maybe it was an operation thing? Crew Scheduling?

NJT has a pretty significant crew shortage right now. In fact, their crew shortage is so significant that some of their regular service trains actually get cancelled due to short staffing. That *could* have had something to do with NJT axing this service.

Edited by paulrivera
added link to an article re: NJT crew shortage
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I'm thinking that these trains can replace existing NJT trains between Secaucus and Penn, and Existing LIRR trains between Penn Station and Jamaica, it'll be a more efficient use of track capacity. Run the thru service, and people can make connections to whatever branch they need at the normal transfer points. I mean if using Secaucus as a terminal is a problem they can they can have a train go from Trenton to Jamaica, or say a "Beach Train" in the summer that goes from Bay Head, NJ on the North Jersey Coast Line to Long Beach, NY

It's all technically possible the infrastructure's in place. All politics and ops. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Truckie said:

Not sure of the exact reason but heard it was something on NJT's end.  Crew scheduling on MNR's side was covered on the extra list.  I don't know how NJT handled their scheduling.  It was their rolling stock used .  Might have been something with equipment cycles.  Again, can't say for sure.

So when through trains are used crews are swapped at state lines?

 

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

It's all technically possible the infrastructure's in place. All politics and ops. 

They'd have to work out pricing between states as well right? If someone wanted to go from Jamaica to Newark Penn, they'd have to decide on the fare structure for something like that right? Would adding the NJT and LIRR fare for the same trip be out of the question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

So when through trains are used crews are swapped at state lines?

 

They'd have to work out pricing between states as well right? If someone wanted to go from Jamaica to Newark Penn, they'd have to decide on the fare structure for something like that right? Would adding the NJT and LIRR fare for the same trip be out of the question?

I believe crews need to certified for sections of NEC. I remember hearing this many years ago . So there maybe two engineers in cab for the trip or parts of it. NJT is fine into Penn but im not sure if MN crews can run over the Hell Gate and south of New Rochelle. So I'm curious myself on that one.  Shouldn't the goal be to pull everything under one umbrella? LIRR, MN, NJT? At least a fare standard and ticketing. So no I don't think that's completely out of the question. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I think so as well..  Logically it makes sense I just don't have the Math to Verify (TPH ect).  I've gotten pushback on the idea mostly on Premise of the East River tubes being at capacity. But in my mind if you added to more two more tubes on the Hudson side. And locked 2 tracks for each direction I don't see the issue.  Take a few tracks out at Penn and widen the platforms that should cut on dwele times.  Where the trains go? Some to Sunnyside , Jamaica, Huntspoint? Secaucus, Newark Penn? Seems workable again i'd have to understand headways And scheduling I can probably run a simulation from that. 

 

Electrification incompatibility is the big one. If they had built ARC Alt G, you could through run NJT-MetroNorth and it would be all good, because 1. they already work together and 2. there are trains in existence that already do that.

There's a lack of terminating capacity in the west and also in the east, since the systems were never designed for that, and end-to-end runtimes would be nothing short of ridiculous on any through-routed lines.

On 10/10/2017 at 5:48 PM, N6 Limited said:

Would it make sense for the LIRR and NJT to run Joint train service between say Secaucus and Jamaica? This way the LIRR can save on running time by just making connections in Jamaica and NJT in Secaucus (I guess they'd need a diesel to do that?)

Which brings up the question (which I'm sure has come up before) Why doesn't the LIRR switch to catenary? Cost?

That would cost a metric ton of money for very little tangible benefit other than the fuzzy benefits of through routing. Through routing through Penn is the least useful option, because all successful through-running schemes have multiple stops in the city's central area so that passengers spread out and don't jam up any one place. Any through running using existing infrastructure would instead just have the one station, Penn, tanking reliability with excessive dwell times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, bobtehpanda said:

Electrification incompatibility is the big one. If they had built ARC Alt G, you could through run NJT-MetroNorth and it would be all good, because 1. they already work together and 2. there are trains in existence that already do that.

There's a lack of terminating capacity in the west and also in the east, since the systems were never designed for that, and end-to-end runtimes would be nothing short of ridiculous on any through-routed lines.

That would cost a metric ton of money for very little tangible benefit other than the fuzzy benefits of through routing. Through routing through Penn is the least useful option, because all successful through-running schemes have multiple stops in the city's central area so that passengers spread out and don't jam up any one place. Any through running using existing infrastructure would instead just have the one station, Penn, tanking reliability with excessive dwell times.

The M8's are some of the most advanced cars out there. 3 power types Hybrid cars could solve some of that.  3rd rail extended to Secaucus for MU's, NJT Locomotives built with Hybrid modes the ie ALP 46's . Technolgy could solve for this. LIRR,MN and NJT covered.  Give me some numbers on TPH? Why couldn't you turn a few trains via Sunnyside Helix? A few to Hunts Point and maybe even Jamaica? That's 3 possible locations to split the load?   On the Western end Secaucus and Newark. Steamline the tracks and widen Platforms and Stairways in Penn that'll help greatly with dwelle time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

The M8's are some of the most advanced cars out there. 3 power types Hybrid cars could solve some of that.  3rd rail extended to Secaucus for MU's, NJT Locomotives built with Hybrid modes the ie ALP 46's . Technolgy could solve for this. LIRR,MN and NJT covered.  Give me some numbers on TPH? Why couldn't you turn a few trains via Sunnyside Helix? A few to Hunts Point and maybe even Jamaica? That's 3 possible locations to split the load?   On the Western end Secaucus and Newark. Steamline the tracks and widen Platforms and Stairways in Penn that'll help greatly with dwelle time.

Too bad Metro North just upgraded everything to M7s. No one else is gonna take them if the MNR tries moving to all M8s. Same for the LIRR. And we're about to lock in the M9s as well. NJT has no money to run its existing service, how is it supposed to buy new trains? More importantly, what happens in a through running scenario where one state agency isn't pulling their weight with funding? You can't just suck it up and take the hit.

Jamaica and Hunts Point are not designed to take trains from the west. Congestion at Sunnyside is why we're even considering through-running in the first place, because there's not enough room and therefore NJT terminates some trains within Penn itself. You can widen the platforms and stairways all you want, but if everyone is leaving the train at the same time at the same station, there's gonna be congestion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

So when through trains are used crews are swapped at state lines?

Trains were re-crewed at NY-Penn. A bunch of MNR crews (C&E) qualified from New Rochelle to NYP where the train was re crewed with NJT crews.  Mind you, per NJT, it was only the 1PM games that ran direct service.  NJT had an issue with equipment cycles for the night games.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Too bad Metro North just upgraded everything to M7s. No one else is gonna take them if the MNR tries moving to all M8s. Same for the LIRR. And we're about to lock in the M9s as well. NJT has no money to run its existing service, how is it supposed to buy new trains? More importantly, what happens in a through running scenario where one state agency isn't pulling their weight with funding? You can't just suck it up and take the hit.

Jamaica and Hunts Point are not designed to take trains from the west. Congestion at Sunnyside is why we're even considering through-running in the first place, because there's not enough room and therefore NJT terminates some trains within Penn itself. You can widen the platforms and stairways all you want, but if everyone is leaving the train at the same time at the same station, there's gonna be congestion.

2

You're overthinking here. I need you to put your planner's cap on just for a second. You could make this happen with a few adjustments with current equipment and technology. Before we get into that understand this would be a long-term plan 20-25 years this is a regional undertaking it affects everything most importantly GDP and growth. If you start with showing someone how they'll make money you'll get different outcomes this is where a lot of projects and smart folks go wrong love and logic. You have to start with the doe. To this point, this type of streamlining could benefit the region greatly I don't think it's to crazy to fold NJT into a seamless regional network with the MTA. It's not going to happen overnight these Agencies will find money for what they feel is Priority trust and believe Federal level as well the New York Metro area is the crowning jewel for the country how long do you think they'll let this go on? Until it starts hitting some pockets.  Now on to equipment do we need new cars?  Extend 750 DCV 3 Miles from the Bergen Portal to Secaucus.  MU now you have free range from Secaucus to Jamaica and points east and north to the Hell Gate.  M7/M8 check.

LIRR's EMD are covered there good to Newark.

NJT's ALP 45's are Dual powered much like the EMD's so Sunnyside, South Bronx or Jamaica for them. ALP46's would be Sunnyside or the South Bronx they run on both phases. So check for the NJT.

To your point on the Stations are you Saying they can't be Reconfigured to terminate trains? If so why not?

Terminals and train Compatibility below. 

 

6YAgv4u.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d like to make a quick point and ask an obvious question. AFAIC any extension of NJT eastward to Jamaica station is a no-go. With ESA on the horizon the LIRR has already planned to evict the Atlantic Branch Brooklyn trains from the existing plant at Jamaica citing “ no room “ as the reason. The existing trackage will be for Penn Station, HPA, LIC, and ESA LIRR trains. My question is what gives anyone the idea that there’s an actual, profitable, market for a Babylon- Trenton service. That’s even if the equipment, signals, and power issues could be overcome. Anyone familiar with the existing plant at Jamaica knows that there is no easy way to turn Eastbound trains there. A NJT-MNRR combo appears to be an easier nut to crack IMO.  Qualifying on the signal systems alone is no easy task as it is. That’s why you had crew swaps at Penn Station for the Meadowlands service. Feel free to critique my post and I won’t be offended. Carry on.

Edited by Trainmaster5
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

You're overthinking here. I need you to put your planner's cap on just for a second. You could make this happen with a few adjustments with current equipment and technology. Before we get into that understand this would be a long-term plan 20-25 years this is a regional undertaking it affects everything most importantly GDP and growth. If you start with showing someone how they'll make money you'll get different outcomes this is where a lot of projects and smart folks go wrong love and logic. You have to start with the doe. To this point, this type of streamlining could benefit the region greatly I don't think it's to crazy to fold NJT into a seamless regional network with the MTA. It's not going to happen overnight these Agencies will find money for what they feel is Priority trust and believe Federal level as well the New York Metro area is the crowning jewel for the country how long do you think they'll let this go on? Until it starts hitting some pockets.  Now on to equipment do we need new cars?  Extend 750 DCV 3 Miles from the Bergen Portal to Secaucus.  MU now you have free range from Secaucus to Jamaica and points east and north to the Hell Gate.  M7/M8 check.

LIRR's EMD are covered there good to Newark.

NJT's ALP 45's are Dual powered much like the EMD's so Sunnyside, South Bronx or Jamaica for them. ALP46's would be Sunnyside or the South Bronx they run on both phases. So check for the NJT.

To your point on the Stations are you Saying they can't be Reconfigured to terminate trains? If so why not?

Terminals and train Compatibility below. 

Planning and engineering don't exist in a vacuum. NJT is broke, continues to be broke, and will forever be broke short of the money fairy showing up and taking a huge dump on the state.

Interstate planning and operation doesn't work. Exhibit A is the Port Authority, the agency that runs everything it touches in the most expensive ways possible, topping the 'most expensive' lists in the nation. No one wants to pay for someone else's crap even if they get something out of it. Look at WMATA and see how that's working out for them.

Even if they did, New Jersey wants no part in that. They cancelled ARC over the slightest hint of taxes because of cost overruns. More importantly, NJT runs transit for the entire state. South Jersey is faring less well economically than North Jersey, so they get some cross-subsidy over there. Central and South Jersey are not about to give up money going to their services, and they sure as hell aren't about to fork over control to Albany. Trenton may be crap, but it's the devil they know versus the devil they don't. What the hell are they supposed to fund their services off of? The carcasses of Atlantic City and Camden?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Planning and engineering don't exist in a vacuum. NJT is broke, continues to be broke, and will forever be broke short of the money fairy showing up and taking a huge dump on the state.

Interstate planning and operation doesn't work. Exhibit A is the Port Authority, the agency that runs everything it touches in the most expensive ways possible, topping the 'most expensive' lists in the nation. No one wants to pay for someone else's crap even if they get something out of it. Look at WMATA and see how that's working out for them.

Even if they did, New Jersey wants no part in that. They cancelled ARC over the slightest hint of taxes because of cost overruns. More importantly, NJT runs transit for the entire state. South Jersey is faring less well economically than North Jersey, so they get some cross-subsidy over there. Central and South Jersey are not about to give up money going to their services, and they sure as hell aren't about to fork over control to Albany. Trenton may be crap, but it's the devil they know versus the devil they don't. What the hell are they supposed to fund their services off of? The carcasses of Atlantic City and Camden?

 

So my question at this point is how does the New York Metro continue to grow and stay competitive? Especially if you have next two generations trapped in boondoggle after boondoggle? As an American, you have to feel some kinda of way to know we're the old beauty queen that still thinks she has it. How long until we lose our edge and it all go's to crap? Your probably under 30 and already limited from potential problems you could solve.  The world needs more Champions, another Moses isn't that the goal? Again 25-50 years out we don't know the possibilities drop the State limitations and create Regional Jurisdictions.  Planning is finding solutions and path's for future growth and prosperity aim for the stars and touch the clouds. If you dont have that Mentality then what's the point?  Everything I stated before is technically possible only thing in its way is short-sightedness and greed. 

Edited by RailRunRob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I’d like to make a quick point and ask an obvious question. AFAIC any extension of NJT eastward to Jamaica station is a no-go. With ESA on the horizon the LIRR has already planned to evict the Atlantic Branch Brooklyn trains from the existing plant at Jamaica citing “ no room “ as the reason. The existing trackage will be for Penn Station, HPA, LIC, and ESA LIRR trains. My question is what gives anyone the idea that there’s an actual, profitable, market for a Babylon- Trenton service. That’s even if the equipment, signals, and power issues could be overcome. Anyone familiar with the existing plant at Jamaica knows that there is no easy way to turn Eastbound trains there. A NJT-MNRR combo appears to be an easier nut to crack IMO.  Qualifying on the signal systems alone is no easy task as it is. That’s why you had crew swaps at Penn Station for the Meadowlands service. Feel free to critique my post and I won’t be offended. Carry on.

My view was more flexibility with options to route to Jamaica. If you had a ALP45 and you wanted to get it in and out of Penn Quickly and Sunnyside isn't an option would be nice to have the option to route it to Jamaica and turn it there.  Maybe it's 3-4 trains a hour at peak.? Service Feasibility for a Babylon to Trenton I'd have to look at the data off hand I'll say it's low. Equipment shouldn't be an issue with Dual Mode trains and Signaling I believe is Pulse code or a close variation with ASC most locomotives should have ASC and ACSES so signaling should be achievable but work nontheless. Moving forward why couldn't you standardize everything for certifications? Boston to Washington what does Amtrak put their engineers thru? LIRR is Pretty detached from the main line rail so that might be the Special case to Jamaica. As for Jamaica station and space, Maybe the reconfiguration just east of the station create pockets to turn trains? Im not 100% on the operations, checks and time it takes fully to back a train. But im going to say with 2 tracks turning 5 trains an hour is possible. Fill me in if im off. These options of thru running IMO is an option to get more trains in and out of the CBD and meet more demand.  

 

HMKofSd.png

Edited by RailRunRob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's bus direction mistake at Hicksville Station because new sign still says N48 to Jericho Quad which doesn't run anymore. They should have fixed to n48/49 to Broadway Mall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this is weird. I'm on a peak train to Grand Central. Plenty of seats open and this lady is standing blocking the aisle. I got on and took my seat in the Quiet Car area thinking she was getting off, but nope. She's been standing since I got on in Riverdale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2017 at 5:01 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

I’d like to make a quick point and ask an obvious question. AFAIC any extension of NJT eastward to Jamaica station is a no-go. With ESA on the horizon the LIRR has already planned to evict the Atlantic Branch Brooklyn trains from the existing plant at Jamaica citing “ no room “ as the reason. The existing trackage will be for Penn Station, HPA, LIC, and ESA LIRR trains. My question is what gives anyone the idea that there’s an actual, profitable, market for a Babylon- Trenton service. That’s even if the equipment, signals, and power issues could be overcome. Anyone familiar with the existing plant at Jamaica knows that there is no easy way to turn Eastbound trains there. A NJT-MNRR combo appears to be an easier nut to crack IMO.  Qualifying on the signal systems alone is no easy task as it is. That’s why you had crew swaps at Penn Station for the Meadowlands service. Feel free to critique my post and I won’t be offended. Carry on.

The Brooklyn trains are being nixed ostensibly so that the LIRR can streamline the interlocking (in reality, they're too stingy to spend on a couple flyovers that would allow seamless integration of BK and PS/GCT flows).

Once that is done, capacity is said to increase by about 40%. 

The only way thru-running would work would be to do actual thru running. Babylon-Trenton, Huntington-Morristown, Ronkonkoma-Long Branch etc. Even then, the commute markets will still be hub/spoke -- the gains will be in equipment utilization and capacity. 

Edited by RR503

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.