LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[lirr42]

That's what I said: one disruption and the last train to SE falls into the 2AM hour. It's only 4 minutes so one little delay would force it to leave GC after 2 AM. Of course, that's not expected to happen but when accounting for times, you should always make sure you cover the worst case scenario. And in case of only 4 minutes I'd say it's likely something *might* delay the train thus leaving the terminal too late. Not expected, but there's a chance.

 

Yeah, but what difference does it make?  As long as the train is scheduled to run, then they don't have to make any adjustments.  The train can leave at 5am and it wouldn't make any difference, once they know this train is supposed to run, then we just wait until the x number of trains depart GCT.  It's only on the LIRR they actually have to subtract trains from the schedule in the spring and add two trains to the schedule in the fall because of the time change, on MNCR they just run the normally scheduled amount of trains then call it it a day, weather they do that at 1:56, 2:01, or 1:01 EST.

 

It's not like if that train is 4 minutes and one second late it falls into a time warp and doesn't get to run.  I think we're overthinking this just a tad.

Edited November 3, 2013 by lirr42

[PinePower]

Yeah, some people is better than no people at all.

 

 

 

I hate to break it to you, but I'm not saying that train 604 doesn't carry people, it's that train 604 had to depart UN on or close to schedule to avoid messing things up.  If they chose to hold 604 until whenever the its connection arrived, it would not be able to leave Huntington until 613 came through at 7:45 or else it would risk running into 611.  At that point, the buses probably would have gotten people to their destinations faster.  And even after waiting until 7:45 the train would be further delayed because it would have to meet 615 someplace else now (probably at DUKE).

 

And I don't have the timetable in front of me, but I think 604 turns for 617 at Port Jefferson, so now that that turn is thrown out of whack too (and subsequently 617's relatively tight turn for 608 at HN).  623 and 650 might even get screwed up too depending on how things go.

 

So you're saying that they should have held 604 for its connection at UN while in the process delaying 611, 613, 615, 617, 608, and possibly 623 and 650.  The entire student population at SUNY Stony Brook must be on that train to make it have more riders and more importance than seven other ones.

 

I don't like to see when connections get let go and the people are put on buses, however, sometimes it's the only option.

 

Hate to bump an old post but I took the 7:07am train today. Just to give you an idea of how many ppl transfer from the connecting MU, the staircases get backed up and the platform looks like this. That day they didn't hold the connection must've been a big sh*tshow. All so some suits who have jobs in the city won't get delayed 10-15 min. I doubt there would've been enough buses for everybody, and many probably had to wait for the next train 2 hours later. I wonder how many students missed class just so the suits wouldn't be 15 min late for work? 

[qjtransitmaster]

Hate to break it to you but 604 carries just as many people as one of those rush hour westbounds east of Huntington. The LIRR under-estimates the usage those things get from SUNY students. The RR culture needs to adapt. So the westbounds would get delayed, they have no problem delaying 604 or the other reverse peak trains when the other direction has a problem. Having the 604 leaving without it's connection is akin to leaving 40 people standing in Roslyn for an hour for the next n27. The LIRR used to always hold connections, but I've been seeing this more & more. You dont run an empty train leaving a 4 car seated load waiting for cheese buses. I'm really surprised no one has capitalized on the idea of starting a bus service that runs from points in Queens and stopping at Hicksville and SUNY Stony Brook. It could run more frequently than trains and give LIRR some competition. Perhaps thats something that 7 bus should think about...I hear they're not doing so well, probably due to the lack of intra-island options. 

Annd when reverse service is increased on LIRR expect that bus service to fail miserably. Once ronkonkoma gets reverse peak and 30 min off peak service SCT would be wise to upgrade service on the 3D or extend S59 to SUNY stony brook. SCT needs an overhaul to the structure of many routes.

[Vistausss]

SCT and upgraded service? Not a chance in hell. They've just added Sunday service to most of their lines. JUST.

[lirr42]

LIRR and MNCR have each wrapped a couple trainsets in New York State's new "Get Outta Town" campaign, which promotes tourism within New York City, Long Island, and the Hudson Valley.  The LIRR wrapped a couple sets of M7's (photos of which you can see here)  and MNCR wrapped a bunch of M3's (photos of which you can see here). 

 

I think the full exterior wrap on the M7's looks pretty good.  Much better than those small little banner ads they tried out not too long ago.  Those looked awful.

[lirr42]

Senator Blabbermouth Schumer has allegedly "struck a deal" between the LIRR and Amtrak in regards to maintenance in and around New York Penn Station.

From a Newsday article:

Amtrak Monday will announce major changes in the way it maintains and repairs the problem-plagued East River tunnels.

The new initiative -- an effort aimed in part at reducing Long Island Rail Road service disruptions to and from Penn Station -- is to include:

Replacing track components on a regular schedule instead of waiting for them to deteriorate.

Conducting inspections during the day when more crews are available to make repairs.

Protecting tracks from corrosive or damaging contaminants.

"These tunnels are the weakest link in the commute of hundreds of thousands of Long Islanders, and by bringing them up to a state of good repair we'll reduce the frequency of the maddening delays, reroutes and cancellations that currently happen far too often," said Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), who for years has pushed for tunnel improvements.

"By committing to repairing and upgrading the tunnels, Amtrak is committing to improve the day-to-day life of almost anyone who rides the LIRR," he said.

Part of my response:

Since July 1, 2013, 577 LIRR trains have late, annulled, or canceled due to some sort of disruption in the East River Tunnels. Without going too much into the particular incidents, some of the notable ones included Amtrak-related third rail damage in Line 4 on August 19th which delayed 123 trains and caused 10 to be annulled and 6 to be canceled. A track condition in Line 2 on August 6th caused 65 trains to be late and 5 to be canceled, and E29DC power problems in Line 4 of the East River Tunnels on July 19th caused 102 trains to be delayed.

Amtrak has also been having it's own fair share of troubles outside the East River Tunnels. Track circuit failures and signal problems in HAROLD, F, C, and JO interlockings have been happening much more frequently in the last month or so then they have previously. Since July 1, 2013, 253 trains have been late, annulled, or canceled due to some sort of trouble in HAROLD, F, C, JO, and A interlockings. HAROLD has been the worst of the bunch with disruptions to 127 of those 253 trains being caused by problems there (note: this number excludes delays which the LIRR themselves directly caused, i.e. this)

So, all told, roughly 830 trains have been late, canceled, or annulled since July 1, 2013 due to issues caused directly or indirectly by Amtrak.

Now as bad as that sounds, considering the LIRR runs roughly that many trains in a single day, that many delayed trains over the course of a four month period "in the grand scheme of things" isn't catastrophically bad. It is far more then it should be, but it's not like we should be burning the officials of Amtrak at the stake...

Pardon my skepticism here, but I don't think this is going to go anywhere. If I'm reaching into the depths of my brain far enough, I remember there being some sort of deal like this made between the LIRR and Amtrak a couple years ago and look how far we got. Also, Schumer's alleged demands of Amtrak are broad and have no financial backing whatsoever. According to this Newsday article, Amtrak is going to work to replace track components on a regular schedule instead of waiting for them to deteriorate, conduct inspections during the day when more crews are available to make repairs, and protect tracks from corrosive or damaging contaminants.

[LIRR 154]

The only way the East River Tunnels can be maintain properly is if the LIRR takes over. Amtrak doesn't have the backing , resources or man power to cover this kind of operation. Eventually with the ESA and a Sunnyside station and yard coming there in the future I won't be surprised if Amtrak is pushed

out as sole controller in that area.

Edited November 19, 2013 by LIRR 154

[Trainmaster5]

Made a round trip from Brentwood to Brooklyn last Friday and for the first time in many years I had no time constraints. I just sat back and thought about the many rides I've made on the railroad over the last half century or more. On the westbound trip my train was delayed, "held", according to the station monitors for 8 minutes at Ronkonkoma. Years ago there wouldn't have been any notification at the pre-electricification old Brentwood station. Unless the station agent came out and notified us that is. Finally an M7 appeared. The next station, Deer Park, isn't even located where the old Deer Park Station was. Heading w/b toward Hicksville I looked out the window to where the old Grumman stop was. There isn't any trace of it as far as I could see. After Hicksville I was noticing how many unused sidings there were heading toward Mineola. I know freight isn't a big thing with LIRR/ New York & Atlantic any more but it's sad to see so much potential being wasted. When we finally got to Jamaica my connection was long gone so I walked around the platform. Noticed the smokers weren't there any more but the pigeons were still there.There was a wrapped M7 laid up adjacent to 1 track. When the Brooklyn train came I noticed we slowed down before East New York, almost stopping. Once we hit the viaduct I got to see my familiar view of Bed-Stuy. Looking down while leaving Nostrand Ave I saw some street construction btw Atlantic Ave and Fulton St. If that was for the B44SBS service the DOT was cutting it real close. On my return trip toward Jamaica some things became apparent. There was a single track operation in effect between Atlantic Terminal and east of the East New York station. That's why the w/b train slowed down at ENY. Got to Jamaica and walked over to track 8. I noticed a train crew on the tracks and saw that they were waiting for an equipment move ( loco #404) that popped up when my Ronkonkoma (M3) train arrived. On the trip east I did my usual observation and got back to Brentwood on time. Some things I noticed. At the east end of Mineola there used to be remains of trackage heading s/b, not n/b toward Oyster Bay, that are now gone. That M3 was flying btw Mineola and Hicksville. The connection with the Central Branch at Bethpage has always fascinated me for some reason. I've yet to ride a train across it after riding the Ronkonkoma Branch off and on for over 30 years. I had a discussion with a forum member a while back who discounted my interaction with the workers of the NY&A freight workers. For some reason he couldn't fathom an subway M/M dealing with railroad workers. Put it this way. When I came out of schoolcar my first assignment was work trains. Diesels and electric locomotives. That stuff has always interested me and the LIRR workers, and now the NY&A folks, have been helpful to me for the last 30 years or so. BTW I'd also like to point out a few things about the stations I've used on the LIRR. Heading e/b I've used the Woodhaven station on the Atlantic Branch, Union Hall St on the mainline, and Pine Aire on the Ronkonkoma line. They're all history now. There's one more I've left out. Quick quiz. Name the three LIRR stations that Brentwood had.I've used them all in my lifetime. Carry on.

[lirr42]

Interesting observations, Mr. Trainmaster.

 

Some remarks:

1. There is still some freight traffic along the mainline.  There's a couple near New Hyde Park and a couple near Hicksville.  This map has most of them.
2. I think they've been single tracking between Jamaica and ENY for the last little while as they're replacing the half-ties in the tunnel there.  The single tracking was probably why your original connection departed without delay, since they usually hold connections at Jamaica if trains aren't too late.
3. The right of way you saw going south used to connect down to Country Life Press and the West Hempstead Branch.  It would be nice to have such a connection today!
4. Both of my usual trains used the Central Branch every day.  Even though going via the Babylon Branch is shorter and faster, it is still pretty neat to go rocking down the mainline past all those stations!

Let's see, to name the three stations, I'm going to say the old Brentwood before electrification hit the Ronkonkoma Branch, the current Brentwood and either Pineaire or Pilgrim Hospital (since those are technically located in West Brentwood, IIRC).  I think Thompson, Modern Times, and Suffok were all long gone before you came around!

Edited November 19, 2013 by lirr42

[Trainmaster5]

Interesting observations, Mr. Trainmaster.

 

Some remarks:

1. There is still some freight traffic along the mainline.  There's a couple near New Hyde Park and a couple near Hicksville.  This map has most of them.
2. I think they've been single tracking between Jamaica and ENY for the last little while as they're replacing the half-ties in the tunnel there.  The single tracking was probably why your original connection departed without delay, since they usually hold connections at Jamaica if trains aren't too late.
3. The right of way you saw going south used to connect down to Country Life Press and the West Hempstead Branch.  It would be nice to have such a connection today!
4. Both of my usual trains used the Central Branch every day.  Even though going via the Babylon Branch is shorter and faster, it is still pretty neat to go rocking down the mainline past all those stations!

Let's see, to name the three stations, I'm going to say the old Brentwood before electrification hit the Ronkonkoma Branch, the current Brentwood and either Pineaire or Pilgrim Hospital (since those are technically located in West Brentwood, IIRC).  I think Thompson, Modern Times, and Suffok were all long gone before you came around!

The Brentwood stations I was thinking of were Brentwood (old or new), Pine Aire, and Pilgrim State. You got it. I actually went to the Pilgrim station back in the sixties to visit someone. I happened to see the old station shelter on another site so I've been exploring the area of the old ROW including the shed and the remaining part of the ROW at the southern end. I haven't walked the whole ROW because it's about a mile of underbrush and the south end still is active on the Pilgrim Spur. There were a few cars laid up behind the switch Friday and just east of that location NY&A uses the old Pine Aire station location. Private property means private in my world. Funny thing is is that the NY&A "yard" has the right address number but calls the town Bay Shore on the sign in front. Bay Shore it ain't. The present Deer Park station might be located in Brentwood. LOL

[Vistausss]

@Trainmaster5: You were one of the handful of people that actually used Woodhaven LIRR? Awesome!

[Trainmaster5]

@Trainmaster5: You were one of the handful of people that actually used Woodhaven LIRR? Awesome!

I only used it twice although I always passed it on my way to Union Hall and the 165th St bus station in Queens. I had an older friend who used to hang out around the Woodhaven station area and he would call me when he got drunk. I'd take the train out there and drive him back to Brooklyn in his car. The bad part was that many trains didn't stop there at all times. The good part was that I got to drive a Pontiac GTO back to Brooklyn. A real muscle car. I was a designated driver before the term came into use.

[lirr42]

While you're distracted from doing the things you're supposed to be doing and poking around NYCTransit forums, try your hand at answering 10 quick LIRR Trivia questions:

 

So far nobody has gotten a perfect score, but you can give it a shot for yourself right here: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/11/think-you-know-your-lirr-stuff-1120.html

 

I'll post the results sometime after 4:00pm tomorrow.

[Vistausss]

@lirr42: Cool! I filled it in, I'll check back tomorrow evening what my score is (although I know that I won't have a perfect score since I didn't know the answer to one question).

[lirr42]

@lirr42: Cool! I filled it in, I'll check back tomorrow evening what my score is (although I know that I won't have a perfect score since I didn't know the answer to one question).

 

If you haven't seen them yet, you can view your scores here: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/11/late-friday-links-1122.html

[Vistausss]

Hmm, does LIRR really have 3 electric trains terminating at HPA in the AM rush? Because I know there's only one PM electric train which is headed for Ronkonkoma so that must mean three in AM...  weird.

[bobtehpanda]

Is there a resource available that posts all the stops a train may make? For example, the Babylon Branch schedule doesn't show which trains stop at St. Albans.

 

I was hoping there would be a printed or PDF resource available so I wouldn't have to dig through the GTFS feeds

[lirr42]

Hmm, does LIRR really have 3 electric trains terminating at HPA in the AM rush? Because I know there's only one PM electric train which is headed for Ronkonkoma so that must mean three in AM...  weird.

 

There is only one train from Huntington that terminates at HPA during the morning rush.  That, along with the train to Ronkonkoma during the PM rush leaves 2 electric trains serving HPA, which is the correct answer.

Is there a resource available that posts all the stops a train may make? For example, the Babylon Branch schedule doesn't show which trains stop at St. Albans.

 

I was hoping there would be a printed or PDF resource available so I wouldn't have to dig through the GTFS feeds

 

There's no place that has everything, unfortunately.  However, there are train numbers printed at the bottom of every column in the timetables that can be used to compare to other branch's schedules (note the patterns that come out as certain branches always have certain numbered trains).  That can be used to line up stops.

[Amtrak7]

There exists a GTFS schedule viewer which makes it much easier to interpret the feed.

 

https://googletransitdatafeed.googlecode.com/files/transitfeed-windows-binary-1.2.12.zip

 

Download, extract, drag and drop the GTFS zip on schedule_viewer.exe, ignore the warnings, go to localhost:8765 in your browser when it says so. Note: the calendar doesn't work, enter a date in yyyymmdd form.

 

Comparing train numbers is tricky when it comes to certain situations, especially Huntington/Port Jeff connections since only the number of the easternmost leg is listed.

[Vistausss]

@lirr42: But the correct answer according to the sheet is 4. One morning train+one afternoon train = 2 trains. Or am I reading your post wrong?

[lirr42]

@lirr42: But the correct answer according to the sheet is 4. One morning train+one afternoon train = 2 trains. Or am I reading your post wrong?

 

I am seeing on my end of the portal that 2 is the answer that is accepted, and if you put 2 it would be marked right.  Do you see something different?

[drumz0rz]

 That M3 was flying btw Mineola and Hicksville.

An express will cruise pretty much the whole way from Hollis to Hicksville doing 80mph.

[B35 via Church]

Every morning b/w 5:50 & 6am, there's 3 OOS trains that go flying EB past Mineola.... Where those trains are going, I do not know

It's usually 1 M3 & 2 M7's....

[lirr42]

Every morning b/w 5:50 & 6am, there's 3 OOS trains that go flying EB past Mineola.... Where those trains are going, I do not know

It's usually 1 M3 & 2 M7's....

 

They're making their way to points east as equipment runs to make up trains later on in the rush hours.  They are either going to Huntington or Ronkonkoma, judging by what you said.

[DaTransitMan4608]

Hey just a thought but.....

 

Do you guys see MNRR getting Multilevels? You think they'd be able to use them during rush hour?

 

 

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