LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[LIRR 154]

Y'all already know how them maintenance crews are.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

No it's not the crews at all. Haven't to deal with how winter and salt affects the train floors it's tough work. It's like mopping sand paper and it turns your mop and bucket water dirty black after two cars. Imagine having to mop and sweep and clean garbage on a 12 car train that is schedule to leave in 2 or 3 hours. It's not easy work .The crews are not lazy , harsh winters have these equipment taking a pounding both internally and mechanically. The shops have been busy.. The floors will be back to normal by the beginning of spring . It takes time to get up all the salt and grime so cut the coach cleaners a break. Unless your in car sweating your @$$ off trying to get these trains ready before the crews come to take it you don't know.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No it's not the crews at all. Haven't to deal with how winter and salt affects the train floors it's tough work. It's like mopping sand paper and it turns your mop and bucket water dirty black after two cars. Imagine having to mop and sweep and clean garbage on a 12 car train that is schedule to leave in 2 or 3 hours. It's not easy work .The crews are not lazy , harsh winters have these equipment taking a pounding both internally and mechanically. The shops have been busy.. The floors will be back to normal by the beginning of spring . It takes time to get up all the salt and grime so cut the coach cleaners a break. Unless your in car sweating your @$$ off trying to get these trains ready before the crews come to take it you don't know.....

That makes sense... Nevertheless, the cars have been quite filthy, not just the floors, but the chairs too... The New Haven Line seats are already becoming dirty and those are new cars.  Do you guys clean the seats with like soap and hot water or anything?? It may sound ridiculous to ask, but I think for the price we pay to ride Metro-North it isn't asking too much.  Of late I've been standing even when there is a seat when I use the Harlem line to go to Westchester because I'm skeeved out by the cleanliness.  I know on my express bus they must clean the chairs because they never look dirty.  The floors have been dirty due to the winter, but Yonkers does an excellent job with the buses they provide to serve us in Riverdale.

[LIRR 154]

That makes sense... Nevertheless, the cars have been quite filthy, not just the floors, but the chairs too... The New Haven Line seats are already becoming dirty and those are new cars.  Do you guys clean the seats with like soap and hot water or anything?? It may sound ridiculous to ask, but I think for the price we pay to ride Metro-North it isn't asking too much.  Of late I've been standing even when there is a seat when I use the Harlem line to go to Westchester because I'm skeeved out by the cleanliness.  I know on my express bus they must clean the chairs because they never look dirty.  The floors have been dirty due to the winter, but Yonkers does an excellent job with the buses they provide to serve us in Riverdale.

I don't know about Metro North but we usually have a EIC dock and crew that scrubs each car from top to bottom. Each car gets intense treatment. But with the chairs , people need to stop putting their feet on the chair. Each train cannot have their seats soap and water cleaned each night it takes to much time. Most trains if not a protect only spend 3 to 4 hours tops in the yard and then you have some that are all day runners never seeing a coach cleaner till the next day.

[Truckie]

Metro North does have E Cleaners that do a top to bottom cleaning.  I don't know how often this gets done.

 

People putting their feet on the seats are a huge problem.  Given rainy or snowy weather wrecks havoc on the seats.  We are powerless in preventing this from happening.  Aside from making announcements there is nothing else we can do on the trains.  At one time I asked people to remove their feet from the seats but after a fellow conductor was reprimanded for doing just this, I no longer do so.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know about Metro North but we usually have a EIC dock and crew that scrubs each car from top to bottom. Each car gets intense treatment. But with the chairs , people need to stop putting their feet on the chair. Each train cannot have their seats soap and water cleaned each night it takes to much time. Most trains if not a protect only spend 3 to 4 hours tops in the yard and then you have some that are all day runners never seeing a coach cleaner till the next day.

 

 

Metro North does have E Cleaners that do a top to bottom cleaning.  I don't know how often this gets done.

 

People putting their feet on the seats are a huge problem.  Given rainy or snowy weather wrecks havoc on the seats.  We are powerless in preventing this from happening.  Aside from making announcements there is nothing else we can do on the trains.  At one time I asked people to remove their feet from the seats but after a fellow conductor was reprimanded for doing just this, I no longer do so.

This I agree with... I see it far too often on the Metro-North trains and it irks me deeply. 

[Fresh Pond]

So because of tourists, I ended up missing my 3:55 train to work and had to wait for the 4:25 one lol. But as I'm walking down the platform and looking at the train (M7, that's about all I'll get on weekends) I noticed that it seems like there were stickers near the door that said BBRX. Anyone knows what that means

[bobtehpanda]

http://www.lirrhistory.com/1963betterrail/1963betterrailss.pdf

So apparently this is the origin of the East Side Access we know today. It's a very interesting read on what the planners thought the LIRR of the future would be.

[BreeddekalbL]

metro north engine 225 released from the ntsb to be repaired, video by gregorygrice

[lirr42]

Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths

 

The Long Island Rail Road is a system that was built in little bits and pieces over the course of a century.  Platform lengths, how long the actual platform where trains can stop is, have never been standard on the LIRR.  From the days when a LIRR platform was often just some gravel or asphalt on the ground to the almost universally high-level platform system we see today, there have always been those stations that have shorter platforms than others.

 

The "standard" platform length on the Long Island Rail Road is 12 cars long, as that is the longest-length train that the LIRR runs in normal revenue service.  However, many branches rarely, if ever, see 12-car trains, so in certain cases, the shorter platforms are good enough for those branches.  Usually, stations in diesel territory will only see 8-car long trains at most, but there are occasions where trains of 9 or more cars are run.

 

At the stations that have uncommonly short platforms, only the maximum allowed number of cars open their doors at that station, and the others remain closed.  We have all heard those announcements over the PA: "only the first six cars will open at St. Albans;" "You must be in one of the first four cars to exit at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills;" "Only the first car will platform at Amagansett."

 

At each station that has a uncommonly short platform, the unopened cars hang off the platform in a different way.  At St. Albans the first six cars always platform, no matter what direction you're heading in, but at Valley Stream, the first eight cars platform when you are going east, and the last eight cars platform when you are going west.  Since each station is different, there has to be a different policy for each individual station, since some stations have grade crossings that the LIRR like to avoid fouling and signals or switches which the LIRR can't foul.

 

There are specific rules that indicate which cars are to be opened at which platforms in which directions for each station, so it's not made up on the fly.  It is different at every station, and it can be confusing (though regualar riders at short platform stations tend to learn the patterns at their stop and adjust accordingly.)

 

Last night, I created the following map which shows all of the different platform lengths, and if the platform is unusually short, exactly which cars will open their doors at that station.  The number indicated in the circle represents the length of the platform in number of cars (multiply that number by 85 to get the approximate length of the platform in feet).  In certain cases, a letter precedes the number, and that indicates which of the cars open their doors at each station.

 

The letters mean the following:

 

• H: The head ____ cars open.  Irregardless of direction, the first ____ cars will open at this station.
• R: The rear ____ cars open. Irregardless of direction, the last ____ will always open at this station.
• E: The easternmost ____ cars will open. This can either be the first or last ____ cars, depending on the direction.  The end of the train will always line up with the east end of the station platform.
• W: The westernmost ____ cars will open.  This again depends on direction, but the end of the train will always line up with the ____ of the platform.

Here is the map, you can click to enlarge it to get a better look.  There are a couple of exceptions and remarks, which I will make below.

 

 

Click to enlarge.  You can also grab a full-resolution .pdf version of this map by clicking this link.

(The LIRR Today map)

The terminal stations all have different track layouts, depending on what track you are on and what direction you are going from.  Instead of attempting to clutter up the map with them, I will indicate them below:

 

Jamaica

Universal 12-car platforms for Jamaica is on the LIRR's wishlist, but due to the very close proximity of switches on different sides of the platforms, extending the platforms would be impossible without either very large gaps or substantial interlocking reconfiguration.  The LIRR will be doing the latter as part of the Jamaica Capacity Improvement Project, so we're likely to see full 12-car platforms put in for all tracks at that point:

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Jamaica]

 

 

New York

To the LIRR, all platforms at New York Penn are 12 cars long, and every train that goes there can platform all 12 cars.  However, there are a number of platforms longer than 12 cars at Penn Station, but there are no platforms shorter than 12 cars, so it doesn't make much of a difference.  (You can find out more about the different platforms at NYP in the New York Penn Track-by-Track posts)

 

 

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at New York Penn]

 

 

Brooklyn

Several of the platforms at Atlantic Terminal are on significant curves, so only a certain number of cars open on certain tracks, despite the longer platforms:

 

 

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Atlantic Terminal]

 

 

There are also a number of different smaller exceptions and notes that further add to the complexity of all of these platforms:

• At Long Island City, only the Mainline platform is used in regular service (westernmost 1 car opens).  However, there is an additional two car platform in-between yard tracks 6 and 7, as well as a smaller wooden platform adjacent to yard track 9.
• At Hillside, passengers needing to use the elevator must be discharged from either the two easternmost cars, or a double stop must be arranged.
• Due to the large gap at Glen Street station, train crew members must be positioned at doorways to assist passengers boarding and alighting.
• At Massapequa, only the easternmost 6 cars will open, as the western half of the platform is closed for the Massapequa Station Platform Rehabilitation project.
• Train 2798 makes double-stops at Westhampton, Bridgehampton, Southampton, East  Hampton and Montauk (when on station track 2) so all cars platform.

And that's just about it, hopefully I haven't forgotten anything.  All this would be a lot easier if there were full-length, 12-car platforms at every last station, but, for the most part, platform lengths don't really have all that much effect on operations or load distribution.  The very busy stations tend to all have full-length platforms already, and large swarms of riders is not much of an issue at the smaller stations that often have smaller platforms as well.  There's more to discuss on the topic on the subject of platform lengths, but we'll leave it here for now.

 

Posted on 4/06/2014 06:00:00 AM No Comments

See more posts about: Atlantic Terminal, Equipment, Jamaica, LIRR 101, Penn Station, Stations

[Union Tpke]

Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths

 

The Long Island Rail Road is a system that was built in little bits and pieces over the course of a century.  Platform lengths, how long the actual platform where trains can stop is, have never been standard on the LIRR.  From the days when a LIRR platform was often just some gravel or asphalt on the ground to the almost universally high-level platform system we see today, there have always been those stations that have shorter platforms than others.

 

The "standard" platform length on the Long Island Rail Road is 12 cars long, as that is the longest-length train that the LIRR runs in normal revenue service.  However, many branches rarely, if ever, see 12-car trains, so in certain cases, the shorter platforms are good enough for those branches.  Usually, stations in diesel territory will only see 8-car long trains at most, but there are occasions where trains of 9 or more cars are run.

 

At the stations that have uncommonly short platforms, only the maximum allowed number of cars open their doors at that station, and the others remain closed.  We have all heard those announcements over the PA: "only the first six cars will open at St. Albans;" "You must be in one of the first four cars to exit at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills;" "Only the first car will platform at Amagansett."

 

At each station that has a uncommonly short platform, the unopened cars hang off the platform in a different way.  At St. Albans the first six cars always platform, no matter what direction you're heading in, but at Valley Stream, the first eight cars platform when you are going east, and the last eight cars platform when you are going west.  Since each station is different, there has to be a different policy for each individual station, since some stations have grade crossings that the LIRR like to avoid fouling and signals or switches which the LIRR can't foul.

 

There are specific rules that indicate which cars are to be opened at which platforms in which directions for each station, so it's not made up on the fly.  It is different at every station, and it can be confusing (though regualar riders at short platform stations tend to learn the patterns at their stop and adjust accordingly.)

 

Last night, I created the following map which shows all of the different platform lengths, and if the platform is unusually short, exactly which cars will open their doors at that station.  The number indicated in the circle represents the length of the platform in number of cars (multiply that number by 85 to get the approximate length of the platform in feet).  In certain cases, a letter precedes the number, and that indicates which of the cars open their doors at each station.

 

The letters mean the following:

 

• H: The head ____ cars open.  Irregardless of direction, the first ____ cars will open at this station.
• R: The rear ____ cars open. Irregardless of direction, the last ____ will always open at this station.
• E: The easternmost ____ cars will open. This can either be the first or last ____ cars, depending on the direction.  The end of the train will always line up with the east end of the station platform.
• W: The westernmost ____ cars will open.  This again depends on direction, but the end of the train will always line up with the ____ of the platform.

Here is the map, you can click to enlarge it to get a better look.  There are a couple of exceptions and remarks, which I will make below.

 

 

Click to enlarge.  You can also grab a full-resolution .pdf version of this map by clicking this link.

(The LIRR Today map)

The terminal stations all have different track layouts, depending on what track you are on and what direction you are going from.  Instead of attempting to clutter up the map with them, I will indicate them below:

 

Jamaica

Universal 12-car platforms for Jamaica is on the LIRR's wishlist, but due to the very close proximity of switches on different sides of the platforms, extending the platforms would be impossible without either very large gaps or substantial interlocking reconfiguration.  The LIRR will be doing the latter as part of the Jamaica Capacity Improvement Project, so we're likely to see full 12-car platforms put in for all tracks at that point:

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Jamaica]

 

 

New York

To the LIRR, all platforms at New York Penn are 12 cars long, and every train that goes there can platform all 12 cars.  However, there are a number of platforms longer than 12 cars at Penn Station, but there are no platforms shorter than 12 cars, so it doesn't make much of a difference.  (You can find out more about the different platforms at NYP in the New York Penn Track-by-Track posts)

 

 

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at New York Penn]

 

 

Brooklyn

Several of the platforms at Atlantic Terminal are on significant curves, so only a certain number of cars open on certain tracks, despite the longer platforms:

 

 

[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Atlantic Terminal]

 

 

There are also a number of different smaller exceptions and notes that further add to the complexity of all of these platforms:

• At Long Island City, only the Mainline platform is used in regular service (westernmost 1 car opens).  However, there is an additional two car platform in-between yard tracks 6 and 7, as well as a smaller wooden platform adjacent to yard track 9.
• At Hillside, passengers needing to use the elevator must be discharged from either the two easternmost cars, or a double stop must be arranged.
• Due to the large gap at Glen Street station, train crew members must be positioned at doorways to assist passengers boarding and alighting.
• At Massapequa, only the easternmost 6 cars will open, as the western half of the platform is closed for the Massapequa Station Platform Rehabilitation project.
• Train 2798 makes double-stops at Westhampton, Bridgehampton, Southampton, East  Hampton and Montauk (when on station track 2) so all cars platform.

And that's just about it, hopefully I haven't forgotten anything.  All this would be a lot easier if there were full-length, 12-car platforms at every last station, but, for the most part, platform lengths don't really have all that much effect on operations or load distribution.  The very busy stations tend to all have full-length platforms already, and large swarms of riders is not much of an issue at the smaller stations that often have smaller platforms as well.  There's more to discuss on the topic on the subject of platform lengths, but we'll leave it here for now.

 

Posted on 4/06/2014 06:00:00 AM No Comments

See more posts about: Atlantic Terminal, Equipment, Jamaica, LIRR 101, Penn Station, Stations

 

Great job LIRR42, i saw this on subchat and on your website.

I really love your website, keep up the great work.

[Marctalky1]

Very very random but, does anyone know where I can find photos or even a video of the LIRR concourse at Penn station before the 1993-1994 renovations? I would to see what it look like back in the day!

Edited April 12, 2014 by Marctalky1

[BxM4Woodlawn]

Okay, I will say this once. There are too many M7's. We need to see more M3's!!!!!! LIRR and Metro-North, send out less M7's and more M3's from now on. Thank you!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay, I will say this once. There are too many M7's. We need to see more M3's!!!!!! LIRR and Metro-North, send out less M7's and more M3's from now on. Thank you!

Are you serious? I can barely stand the seats on the M7's, let alone the M3's.  They need to swap out those nasty seats and give us something similar to the seats on the New Haven Line.  Those are much more comfortable and I don't feel as if my Italian dress shirts are being ruined by those annoying rubber armrests.   The AC also sucks on those trains, especially on hot days.  

 

Interesting note:

 

 

 

In late 2006 the MTA began a replacement of all M7 armrests after paying out over $100,000 to customers who filed complaints. The factory installed armrests were notorious for slipping into trouser pockets and then destroying them when sitting. The new design is of a different profile and is coated in a more fabric-friendly rubber. Some passengers complained about having fewer seats per B car, a consequence of the larger ADA-compliant restrooms, and about the width of the seats. Metro-North's management received feedback about the M7, which influenced the development of the M8 railcars for New Haven Line service.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M7_(railcar)

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/nyregion/13seats.html

 

I don't find this "fabric-friendly rubber"  any better quite frankly.  I also agree about the leg room being very cramped.  Interesting to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BxM4Woodlawn]

Are you serious? I can barely stand the seats on the M7's, let alone the M3's.  They need to swap out those nasty seats and give us something similar to the seats on the New Haven Line.  Those are much more comfortable and I don't feel as if my Italian dress shirts are being ruined by those annoying rubber armrests.   The AC also sucks on those trains, especially on hot days.  

 

Interesting note:

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M7_(railcar)

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/nyregion/13seats.html

 

I don't find this "fabric-friendly rubber"  any better quite frankly.  I also agree about the leg room being very cramped.  Interesting to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

M3's are the classic better performing trains that move much faster. The M3's dont have problems as much

[bobtehpanda]

M3's are the classic better performing trains that move much faster. The M3's dont have problems as much

 

Really? The M3 interiors are ratty and, quite frankly, less comfortable than the M7s.

[lirr42]

M3's are the classic better performing trains that move much faster. The M3's dont have problems as much

 

Nooooooooo.  The M3's brakedown much more regularly, especially recently.  Their age is showing.  As awful as the M7's ride (and the LIRR's M7's have been riding awfully these days), I'll take them over M3's any day.

 

I also agree about the leg room being very cramped.  Interesting to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

 

More legroom = more standees.  Then you'd have something else to complain about!

[bobtehpanda]

I'm curious: which would be more palatable to you guys, 3+2 seating, or 2+2 seating?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm curious: which would be more palatable to you guys, 3+2 seating, or 2+2 seating?

I prefer the layout on the New Haven trains... Leg room is ample enough regardless of where I sit, and the seats are actually comfortable.  Those M7's the "leather" or whatever that is supposed to be feels cheap and plasticky and often times like others in the article I posted stated, my back and rear hurt after sitting in those damn chairs.

 

 

More legroom = more standees.  Then you'd have something else to complain about!

That isn't an excuse to cut back on legroom.. I'm 6'4" and I need room to sit. They should add some more trains anyway... Definitely needed on some morning trains.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[railroad rider]

That isn't an excuse to cut back on legroom.. I'm 6'4" and I need room to sit. They should add some more trains anyway... Definitely needed on some morning trains.

 

That's easy to say when you don't know what's involved in adding more service.  Yeah, on your toy train set at home you can add more cars or add more trains, but out in the real world often times it is impossible.

[LIRR 154]

M3's are the classic better performing trains that move much faster. The M3's dont have problems as much

I highly disagree. I mean M7 aren't exactly Cadillacs either. But M3's do get shopped a lot more often.

[Truckie]

The biggest problem with adding more trains (or cars to trains) is there is no more to add.

 

If you go to any given yard during rush hour the most you will usually see is one train. That's the one that just came off the road and is getting ready to go back onto the road.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's easy to say when you don't know what's involved in adding more service.  Yeah, on your toy train set at home you can add more cars or add more trains, but out in the real world often times it is impossible.

I don't need to know and don't care quite frankly because that isn't my job to care. It's the 's job to provide adequate service.

 

The biggest problem with adding more trains (or cars to trains) is there is no more to add.

 

If you go to any given yard during rush hour the most you will usually see is one train. That's the one that just came off the road and is getting ready to go back onto the road.

And why are they so short?  If they barely have enough cars to make service, then something is terribly wrong.  They're keeping stats of record ridership and even advertising it, so what are they doing to address the situation?? Sounds like terrible mismanagement to me.  Now if the issue is that they don't have enough money in their capital budget for new cars, then clearly they should've kept some of the older cars around instead of retiring them.  It seems rather egregious to me to advertise Metro-North and encourage people to use it when you barely have enough cars to maintain the service that they currently have.  They market Metro-North heavily here in Riverdale (at least they did for about two years or so)... Very odd to say the least.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[bobtehpanda]

I don't need to know and don't care quite frankly because that isn't my job to care. It's the 's job to provide adequate service.

 

And why are they so short?  If they barely have enough cars to make service, then something is terribly wrong.  They're keeping stats of record ridership and even advertising it, so what are they doing to address the situation?? Sounds like terrible mismanagement to me.  Now if the issue is that they don't have enough money in their capital budget for new cars, then clearly they should've kept some of the older cars around instead of retiring them.  It seems rather egregious to me to advertise Metro-North and encourage people to use it when you barely have enough cars to maintain the service that they currently have.  They market Metro-North heavily here in Riverdale (at least they did for about two years or so)... Very odd to say the least.

 

They've added cars and service over the past couple years, so it's been cutting into their spare factor. Things will presumably get better once the M9s are ordered, but keep in mind that buying new train cars is not just like going to a car dealership and picking out a Toyota. It takes time and a lot of money, and the capital plans are only decided on every five years, which is more than enough time for ridership to skyrocket above projections.

 

I mean sure, it would be nice to have ten spare trains lying around at any given time, but what are you supposed to do if services just keep getting more and more overcrowded?

Edited April 16, 2014 by bobtehpanda

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They've added cars and service over the past couple years, so it's been cutting into their spare factor. Things will presumably get better once the M9s are ordered, but keep in mind that buying new train cars is not just like going to a car dealership and picking out a Toyota. It takes time and a lot of money, and the capital plans are only decided on every five years, which is more than enough time for ridership to skyrocket above projections.

 

I mean sure, it would be nice to have ten spare trains lying around at any given time, but what are you supposed to do if services just keep getting more and more overcrowded?

That still has nothing to do with them retiring the old cars though... The point still is that if you know that ridership continues to grow and you know the situation with the capital budget, then you don't retire those cars unless it's absolutely necessary.  That's poor planning.  Simple as that. It doesn't take rocket science to know that it will be years before monies are approved and new cars can actually be built.  You can down vote me all you want but it's just common sense. Did the old cars have structural issues? If they didn't then you keep them in storage.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[LIRR 154]

That still has nothing to do with them retiring the old cars though... The point still is that if you know that ridership continues to grow and you know the situation with the capital budget, then you don't retire those cars unless it's absolutely necessary. That's poor planning. Simple as that. It doesn't take rocket science to know that it will be years before monies are approved and new cars can actually be built. You can down vote me all you want but it's just common sense. Did the old cars have structural issues? If they didn't then you keep them in storage.

That still has nothing to do with them retiring the old cars though... The point still is that if you know that ridership continues to grow and you know the situation with the capital budget, then you don't retire those cars unless it's absolutely necessary. That's poor planning. Simple as that. It doesn't take rocket science to know that it will be years before monies are approved and new cars can actually be built. You can down vote me all you want but it's just common sense. Did the old cars have structural issues? If they didn't then you keep them in storage.

I agree with you here. For instance with the RR scrapping and retiring alot of the old diesel fleet here at the LIRR in which you can clearly see NYAR crusing with the old engines up and down the island hauling freight. This was the decision of managment liking the brand new and crappy dual modes and getting rid of the work horses. Now there is a equipment shortage especially when it comes to the diesels when they had good working ones just pushed to the side and sold. You don't think those Geeps would of been good for scoot service? That was a coperate decision and not a RR one. Edited April 16, 2014 by LIRR 154