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EE Broadway Local

LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

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6 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

The New Haven line will not be extended to New London. If M8 run on SLE, it will be an separate service from the NH line service. If the NH line got extended to serve SLE stops, the run time would be an whopping three hours!

 

 

Plus, who would want to sit on an M8 for three hours? 

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to say this. After all, it would make direct service to/from Grand Central and Penn Station much easier.

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On 12/16/2020 at 12:53 PM, Lawrence St said:

So since I've been seeing M8's on the SLE, will the New Haven line be extended to SLE or will it just run as a shuttle?

No plans to do any through-running that I'm aware of (beyond the peak-hour SLE trips to Stamford that already exist, anyway). It would just be regular Shore Line East service. I do think the MTA or CTDOT paid a little lip service to the idea of limited through-running in some planning document or other a long time ago, if I'm not misremembering, but I don't remember off the top of my head. There's also SLE platforms and consists being a lot shorter than typical New Haven Line trains to consider as well.

On 12/16/2020 at 1:59 PM, trainfan22 said:

The New Haven line will not be extended to New London. If M8 run on SLE, it will be an separate service from the NH line service. If the NH line got extended to serve SLE stops, the run time would be an whopping three hours!

 

 

Plus, who would want to sit on an M8 for three hours? 

Could be even longer - assuming a standard express from NYC to Stamford, then local to New Haven, you'd probably be looking at closer to 3.5 hours from NYC to New London (compared to about 2.5 hours on Amtrak). Granted, making fewer stops like those (former?) peak-hour expresses certainly could cut down the run time. 

On 12/16/2020 at 8:34 PM, Lex said:

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to say this. After all, it would make direct service to/from Grand Central and Penn Station much easier.

I get the appeal of Metro-North/SLE through service, though (and this is definitely getting out of Metro-North territory) I would much rather see Connecticut and Rhode Island complete their plans of bringing SLE and Rhode Island commuter rail service service together at Westerly, RI to help fill in one of the last commuter rail gaps along the Northeast Corridor. Not that either state has devoted much funding to this over the last decade though.

On 12/16/2020 at 9:00 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Before March, was there any weekend service north of Southeast, and if so, how much? 

Scoots between Wassaic and Southeast, typically every two hours. Prior to March 2018, there was also one through train from Wassaic to GCT each day on Saturday and Sunday, though this was discontinued due to track work.

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Someone in another thread brought something up about service on Lower Montauk between Jamaica and Long Island City; I do vaguely remember LIRR stops at Fresh Pond and Glendale, but this was the tail end of service in the late '90s when it was down to 2 peak-direction runs a day.  Does anyone remember when exactly they cut it down to 2 trips? I assume it must've happened before 1990-91.

@Trainmaster5 any recollection of the Lower Montauk local trains?

Edited by R10 2952

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6 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Someone in another thread brought something up about service on Lower Montauk between Jamaica and Long Island City; I do vaguely remember LIRR stops at Fresh Pond and Glendale, but this was the tail end of service in the late '90s when it was down to 2 peak-direction runs a day.  Does anyone remember when exactly they cut it down to 2 trips? I assume it must've happened before 1990-91.

@Trainmaster5 any recollection of the Lower Montauk local trains?

From the looks of the "stations" along Lower Montauk in 1998, I think service was down to two trips WAYYYYYY before 1990's. Fresh Pond is connected by a sketchy passageway to a metal shack. Glendale, Haberman, and Pennys Bridge, you board at the nearest grade crossing. Richmond Hill actually had a station.

 

In fact here is the sign for Fresh Pond Customers informing the stations closure still there in 2012, but is gone today according to Google Map. That passageway goes to that staircase, which is the "station"

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7126852,-73.8995345,3a,34.5y,185.17h,84.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siFVKWSRb3d9AuT6lgv_bgQ!2e0!5s20120401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

 

Heres Glendale from 2014. the sign apparently is gone today. You can imagine where the "platform" is 

Edited by Mtatransit

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11 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Someone in another thread brought something up about service on Lower Montauk between Jamaica and Long Island City; I do vaguely remember LIRR stops at Fresh Pond and Glendale, but this was the tail end of service in the late '90s when it was down to 2 peak-direction runs a day.  Does anyone remember when exactly they cut it down to 2 trips? I assume it must've happened before 1990-91.

@Trainmaster5 any recollection of the Lower Montauk local trains?

Here is this from a great website with posts about LIRR service:

https://derekstadler.wordpress.com/portfolio-2/collections-photography/maspeth-from-small-dutch-community-to-part-of-the-great-metropolis-final/poignant-memories-of-another-day-history-of-rail-service-to-richmond-hill-and-the-former-communities-of-clarenceville-and-morris-park/

Quote

In May 1974 a new timetable structure was established system-wide.  One of the Long Island City-bound trains was cut on the Montauk Branch leaving only a single round-trip from and to Richmond Hill.  Westbound train number 507 from Oyster Bay stopped in Richmond Hill at 8:18 a.m. and eastbound train number 562 to Oyster Bay stopped at 5:45 p.m.  The schedule persisted for over two decades with only slight changes in time.  By 1989 the morning train originated from Patchogue (first designated as train number 41 but later renumbered 2761).  The last day of service was March 13, 1998.  Train number 2761 from Patchogue stopped at 8:21 a.m. and train number 562 to Oyster Bay stopped at 5:50 p.m.  The east end entrance was now closed.  No doubt in lieu of vandalism, both staircases were removed in the early-2000s.[57]

 

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To add on, looking at my official guide of railway from June 1963 it shows two peak period trains along Lower Montauk. Back then, all trains serving HPA do not serve LIC, only Lower Montauk trains serve LIC.

The trains are as follows

Train 507-

Lv Jamaica at 7:05AM

Richmond Hill- 7:11AM

Glendale- 7:16AM

Fresh Pond- 7:20AM

Haberman- 7:23AM

Penny Br- 7:26AM

LIC- 7:33AM

Train 521-

Lv Jamaica at 8:11AM

Richmond Hill- 8:15AM

Glendale- 8:20AM

Fresh Pond- 8:24AM

Haberman- 8:26AM

Penny Br- 8:29AM

LIC- 8:35AM

Looking at my timetable from 1990, this train runs express and makes no stops between Jamaica and LIC

 

In the afternoon 

Train 552

LIC- 4:58PM

Penny Br- 5:04PM

Haberman- 5:06PM

Fresh Pond- 5:11PM

Jamaica- 5:20PM

This train skips Glendale and Richmond Hill. (This service pattern continued in the 1990)

Train 554

LIC- 5:25PM

Penny Br- 5:31PM

Haberman- 5:33PM

Fresh Pond- 5:38PM

Glendale- 5:41PM

Richmond Hill- 5:45PM

Jamaica- 5:51PM

 

 

Edited by Mtatransit
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16 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Someone in another thread brought something up about service on Lower Montauk between Jamaica and Long Island City; I do vaguely remember LIRR stops at Fresh Pond and Glendale, but this was the tail end of service in the late '90s when it was down to 2 peak-direction runs a day.  Does anyone remember when exactly they cut it down to 2 trips? I assume it must've happened before 1990-91.

@Trainmaster5 any recollection of the Lower Montauk local trains?

Being a Brooklyn guy I never had the chance to ride the Lower Montauk. The western end, LIC, was where the Rentar company operated a free driving school adjacent to the yard. I trained for and got my Class 3 and Class 1 driver's licenses in that area. Practice and road tests were given all around the area. All I can recall were grade crossings and grave yards in the area along with a poultry operation with live chickens next to the train tracks. IIRC the old B61 bus from Brooklyn used to cross the Pulaski Bridge and terminate in the area, too. It was a manufacturing industrial area back then.  The Richmond Hill station, along with the Ozone Park station were places I wish I'd explored back in the day. My memories. Carry on.

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5 hours ago, Subway fanatic said:

Why do commuter rail service run on opposite tracks like they do in England sometimes?

I am asking why do trains do reverse operation

Subway trains can do so as well (though usually it's due to track work that results in single-tracking).

It can be trackwork, or sometimes they use the opposite direction track as an express track (e.g. LIRR Main Line). As for why the commuter railroads tend to use that practice more often, it might have something to do with FRA regulations vs. FTA regulations.

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6 hours ago, Subway fanatic said:

Why do commuter rail service run on opposite tracks like they do in England sometimes?

I am asking why do trains do reverse operation

To be honest, the only reason why is I believe they can. It may be the signals. I think back in the 80s they had a study to convert QBL Express so the express track directions could be switched, so theoricqally they could run more express trains.

But there really isn't any opportunity to run the subways in reverse operations under normal conditions anyways. The headways are too small, with way too many train movements and stops. Its probably why you rarely see it along the Babylon Line

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50 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Subway trains can do so as well (though usually it's due to track work that results in single-tracking).

It can be trackwork, or sometimes they use the opposite direction track as an express track (e.g. LIRR Main Line). As for why the commuter railroads tend to use that practice more often, it might have something to do with FRA regulations vs. FTA regulations.

I doubt it's down to mere FRA regulations. Service in the peak direction typically results in what would ordinarily be wrong-railing (for trains skipping stations), and in cases like Central Islip (back when there was only one main track east of Farmingdale instead of east of Ronkonkoma), it's likely to happen if the station house is attached to the track opposite of the expected one.

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16 hours ago, Lex said:

I doubt it's down to mere FRA regulations. Service in the peak direction typically results in what would ordinarily be wrong-railing (for trains skipping stations), and in cases like Central Islip (back when there was only one main track east of Farmingdale instead of east of Ronkonkoma), it's likely to happen if the station house is attached to the track opposite of the expected one.

The main issue with 3+1 on QBL is that once all those extra trains from the third track get to their destinations, how are they supposed to turn around on the single track?

The reason the LIRR can do this is because West Side Yard is conveniently right next to Penn Station.

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1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The main issue with 3+1 on QBL is that once all those extra trains from the third track get to their destinations, how are they supposed to turn around on the single track?

The reason the LIRR can do this is because West Side Yard is conveniently right next to Penn Station.

Not sure I follow...

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11 hours ago, Lex said:

Not sure I follow...

What goes in must come out, eventually, somehow.

West Side Yard is a conveniently large outlet right next to Penn Station that the extra trains from the third tunnel can go to, instead of turning right back around and trying to squeeze into the lone eastbound tunnel during AM peak. During the PM they just go back to their yards in the outer reaches of the system.

The subway is not unidirectional. Actually doing 3+1 on QBL (or any other line) would require the extra trains to go somewhere after arriving in Midtown, but there is no path for extra trains to a yard that they can just sit in during the rush hours, and there isn't really a low-use reverse-peak pathway out of Manhattan either.

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41 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

What goes in must come out, eventually, somehow.

West Side Yard is a conveniently large outlet right next to Penn Station that the extra trains from the third tunnel can go to, instead of turning right back around and trying to squeeze into the lone eastbound tunnel during AM peak. During the PM they just go back to their yards in the outer reaches of the system.

The subway is not unidirectional. Actually doing 3+1 on QBL (or any other line) would require the extra trains to go somewhere after arriving in Midtown, but there is no path for extra trains to a yard that they can just sit in during the rush hours, and there isn't really a low-use reverse-peak pathway out of Manhattan either.

That's all well and good, but I think we're (mostly) talking about two different things, especially since someone else brought up any part of the subway.

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On 1/1/2021 at 3:58 AM, Subway fanatic said:

Why do commuter rail service run on opposite tracks like they do in England sometimes?

I am asking why do trains do reverse operation

Your question to me is ambiguous & your attempt at a clarification makes matters worse...

Just what do you mean by "reverse operation" exactly?

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1 hour ago, Lex said:

That's all well and good, but I think we're (mostly) talking about two different things, especially since someone else brought up any part of the subway.

Are we? Several people, including yourself, have brought up the wrong-railing on the Main Line.

On 1/1/2021 at 6:58 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

or sometimes they use the opposite direction track as an express track (e.g. LIRR Main Line)

 

On 1/1/2021 at 8:01 AM, Mtatransit said:

I think back in the 80s they had a study to convert QBL Express so the express track directions could be switched, so theoricqally they could run more express trains.

 

On 1/1/2021 at 8:33 AM, Lex said:

Service in the peak direction typically results in what would ordinarily be wrong-railing (for trains skipping stations)

As an addendum, it's worth noting that to support all the extra trains they run during peak hours, the current eastbound schedule to Ronkonkoma looks like

  • 4:37 arrival
  • 6:29 arrival
  • 7:26 arrival
  • 8:59 arrival

Huntington's schedule looks like:

  • 4:11 arrival
  • 6:01 arrival (transfer from Penn train)
  • 6:58 arrival
  • 9:13 arrival

You couldn't operate a subway with >90 minute headways in the reverse peak.

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4 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Are we? Several people, including yourself, have brought up the wrong-railing on the Main Line.

I was getting at the actual peak express patterns (Hicksville to Jamaica and Jamaica to Penn) and the logistics for individual stations. The one who alluded to the logistics of running the peak express service was @Mtatransit.

To be honest, it feels more like we're talking past each other on this one...

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Checked out the new LIRR/Amtrak concourse at Penn today, its awesome. Only complaint is when I wish they had regular fast food restaurants rather than high end eateries... they had a list of all the restaurants that will be in the food hall when it opens later on.

 

 

TBH, I wish they tore down MSG, tear down the post office and build a new MSG there, and build a modern looking Penn Station above ground, also in this case NJT would have an nice new station too.

 

Also checked out one Vanderbilt plaza concourse, only a see through fence its blocking the LIRR ESA station from the newly opened concourse. You can't see the platform level, just a hallway.

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48 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Your question to me is ambiguous & your attempt at a clarification makes matters worse...

Just what do you mean by "reverse operation" exactly?

Meaning trains running eastbound on the westbound track or vice versa. He's asking why is it more common to see it on commuter rail lines than subway lines.

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56 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Checked out the new LIRR/Amtrak concourse at Penn today, its awesome. Only complaint is when I wish they had regular fast food restaurants rather than high end eateries... they had a list of all the restaurants that will be in the food hall when it opens later on.

TBH, I wish they tore down MSG, tear down the post office and build a new MSG there, and build a modern looking Penn Station above ground, also in this case NJT would have an nice new station too.

That would probably be great, if our governor hadn't sat idly by while Bloomberg and Quinn couldn't figure out where to relocate MSG to.

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49 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Meaning trains running eastbound on the westbound track or vice versa. He's asking why is it more common to see it on commuter rail lines than subway lines.

Of course you're going to see/read this, but I'm aiming this message at him through you.

----------------------------------------

Reverse operation of a train means to operate the train backwards (i.e., having the train travel in the opposite direction of which the t/o's facing).... Running trains in service on the wrong track would've been more accurate.....

Why is it more common on commuter rails over subway lines? Quite frankly because subways typically run on higher frequencies over shorter stop distances (regardless of direction of travel) & the commuter rail lines (that it's occurring on) suffers from severe line capacity issues.... It's why the LIRR Main Line is being brought up as the prime example here.....

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Posted (edited)
On 12/30/2020 at 1:41 PM, Union Tpke said:

 

On 12/30/2020 at 4:36 PM, Mtatransit said:

To add on, looking at my official guide of railway from June 1963 it shows two peak period trains along Lower Montauk. Back then, all trains serving HPA do not serve LIC, only Lower Montauk trains serve LIC.

The trains are as follows

Train 507-

Lv Jamaica at 7:05AM

Richmond Hill- 7:11AM

Glendale- 7:16AM

Fresh Pond- 7:20AM

Haberman- 7:23AM

Penny Br- 7:26AM

LIC- 7:33AM

Train 521-

Lv Jamaica at 8:11AM

Richmond Hill- 8:15AM

Glendale- 8:20AM

Fresh Pond- 8:24AM

Haberman- 8:26AM

Penny Br- 8:29AM

LIC- 8:35AM

Looking at my timetable from 1990, this train runs express and makes no stops between Jamaica and LIC

 

In the afternoon 

Train 552

LIC- 4:58PM

Penny Br- 5:04PM

Haberman- 5:06PM

Fresh Pond- 5:11PM

Jamaica- 5:20PM

This train skips Glendale and Richmond Hill. (This service pattern continued in the 1990)

Train 554

LIC- 5:25PM

Penny Br- 5:31PM

Haberman- 5:33PM

Fresh Pond- 5:38PM

Glendale- 5:41PM

Richmond Hill- 5:45PM

Jamaica- 5:51PM

 

 

 

Wow, so the service had been hanging by a thread already since the PRR era.  Whatever folks did ride that once-daily round trip must've either been real dedicated or real close to the stations.

Edited by R10 2952

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