LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[checkmatechamp13]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And where is this service supposed to be coming from? I didn't even realize they adjusted the schedules to run more service, which is nuts. I give kudos to Metro-North providing more service when the ridership has only inched up a little bit. I am sure based on this change from September, that they will provide more service as soon as they can, as they are obviously closely tracking ridership.

What do you mean IF? Ridership is still down over 80% on most days. https://new.mta.info/coronavirus/ridership

And where is this service coming from? The problem is no one is clear about anything. Two trains an hour from where? You're proposing to increase the commutes of people from areas like Poughkeepsie?  Not sure what the point would be, since a lot of those express trains run just a little before the local trains to and from Croton-Harmon. You'd have to adjust all of the schedules and potentially piss off people that have long enough commutes as it is. I actually just looked at the schedules. They already added back some service when ridership hasn't even gone up 10%, so clearly they are adding back service as they can. 

I didn't say anything about adding more service? I said to add those 2 stations to the off-peak express trains (which used to be stops anyway). And you're assuming every single passenger from points north is heading to the East Side of Manhattan. When I went to CCNY, I had classmates who lived in the Hudson Valley who would take Metro-North and the  train to get to/from class. (Areas like Ossining, Cold Spring, etc). So for those passengers who transfer to/from the and need the West Side of Manhattan, this is actually saving them time. For Yonkers, being the major hub that it is, you're saving riders time who are heading to/from points north (not to mention whoever is heading towards Manhattan itself).

Yeah, you're right...it sucks to have to take the  to a local train and then have to transfer to an express train, as opposed to taking the  to the express train directly (which is "long enough")...again not every Metro-North rider is heading to the East Side.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I didn't say anything about adding more service? I said to add those 2 stations to the off-peak express trains (which used to be stops anyway). And you're assuming every single passenger from points north is heading to the East Side of Manhattan. When I went to CCNY, I had classmates who lived in the Hudson Valley who would take Metro-North and the  train to get to/from class. (Areas like Ossining, Cold Spring, etc). So for those passengers who transfer to/from the and need the West Side of Manhattan, this is actually saving them time. For Yonkers, being the major hub that it is, you're saving riders time who are heading to/from points north (not to mention whoever is heading towards Manhattan itself).

Yeah, you're right...it sucks to have to take the  to a local train and then have to transfer to an express train, as opposed to taking the  to the express train directly (which is "long enough")...again not every Metro-North rider is heading to the East Side.

I didn't say you did. I said where is the service coming from? How about you answer the question with some specific examples instead of rambling on about Yonkers and your classmates. Don't need to hear about all of that. As I said before, it is obvious that Metro-North is monitoring service, which is why they added some service back back in September. So give me a SPECIFIC train or trains from the CURRENT schedule that you would have stop at Yonkers, etc.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I didn't say you did. I said where is the service coming from? How about you answer the question with some specific examples instead of rambling on about Yonkers and your classmates. Don't need to hear about all of that. As I said before, it is obvious that Metro-North is monitoring service, which is why they added some service back back in September. So give me a SPECIFIC train or trains from the CURRENT schedule that you would have stop at Yonkers, etc.

Every single weekend express train from the current schedule should stop at Yonkers and Marble Hill. That's the only change I would make. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Every single weekend express train from the current schedule should stop at Yonkers and Marble Hill. That's the only change I would make. 

My stance is when there's enough ridership, they'll add back those semi-express trains (at least some of them anyway). The one thing Metro-North has done very well is study ridership trends. On weekends, it is mainly younger folks using the trains, especially the semi-express trains, so as soon as those can come back, they'll add them, even if ridership isn't fully back.  I am shocked they added back some of the semi-express trains during the week a few months ago, so they are watching ridership very carefully.

I'm not necessarily a fan of just making that change without any data, especially when it adds more time to the commutes of folks with longer commutes.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[NBTA]

Random thought that came to mind, I wonder why LIRR doesn't implement the City Ticket on weekdays, you'll more than likely see even more people on the RR if they were to implement such a thing.

I also think Metro North should do something like that, but it would extend a little further, for the Hudson Line-Yonkers, NHL-New Rochelle, and the Harlem line could be Fleetwood. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 1/25/2021 at 10:47 AM, NBTA said:

Random thought that came to mind, I wonder why LIRR doesn't implement the City Ticket on weekdays, you'll more than likely see even more people on the RR if they were to implement such a thing.

I also think Metro North should do something like that, but it would extend a little further, for the Hudson Line-Yonkers, NHL-New Rochelle, and the Harlem line could be Fleetwood. 

Disagree. Ridership pre-COVID during the week is high enough (Metro-North saw record ridership) with some trains being standing room only off-peak. They would have to add more service for that, and capacity is stretched thin at times already. You need more fleet and track capacity. It comes down to costs and infrastructure constraints.

There are plenty of people that wait for the off-peak fares to ride the railroads during the week, so those trains are getting enough ridership. That's precisely why they haven't been so crazy about extending Atlantic Ticket to Penn Station because the trains would be packed. It's a railroad, not a subway, and the capacity is not there.  The railroads have always said they are a railroad. They are not trying to compete with the subway and acknowledge that they cannot compete with the subway. Their focus is on growing in areas where they are the main game in town, which they are doing, slowly, while making sure they have enough capacity to meet demand.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/25/2021 at 7:47 AM, NBTA said:

Random thought that came to mind, I wonder why LIRR doesn't implement the City Ticket on weekdays, you'll more than likely see even more people on the RR if they were to implement such a thing.

I also think Metro North should do something like that, but it would extend a little further, for the Hudson Line-Yonkers, NHL-New Rochelle, and the Harlem line could be Fleetwood. 

 

On 1/26/2021 at 9:25 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Disagree. Ridership pre-COVID during the week is high enough (Metro-North saw record ridership) with some trains being standing room only off-peak. They would have to add more service for that, and capacity is stretched thin at times already. You need more fleet and track capacity. It comes down to costs and infrastructure constraints.

There are plenty of people that wait for the off-peak fares to ride the railroads during the week, so those trains are getting enough ridership. That's precisely why they haven't been so crazy about extending Atlantic Ticket to Penn Station because the trains would be packed. It's a railroad, not a subway, and the capacity is not there.  The railroads have always said they are a railroad. They are not trying to compete with the subway and acknowledge that they cannot compete with the subway. Their focus is on growing in areas where they are the main game in town, which they are doing, slowly, while making sure they have enough capacity to meet demand.

Atlantic Ticket is basically this, just for Atlantic Terminal. 

A good point brought up at the LIRR Today is that because of poor advertisement and the general crappiness of ticket machines, it is still entirely possible to buy a normal off-peak or peak fare when your trip is eligible for City or Atlantic Ticket; either has to be specifically requested. So there are still a significant amount of people buying Zone 1/3 fares that really, really should be getting fare savings.

I don't necessarily think a reduced city fare ticket would have to be 100% inclusive 100% of the time. It could be rolled out as applicable across the network.

Edited January 27, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

 

Atlantic Ticket is basically this, just for Atlantic Terminal. 

A good point brought up at the LIRR Today is that because of poor advertisement and the general crappiness of ticket machines, it is still entirely possible to buy a normal off-peak or peak fare when your trip is eligible for City or Atlantic Ticket; either has to be specifically requested. So there are still a significant amount of people buying Zone 1/3 fares that really, really should be getting fare savings.

I don't necessarily think a reduced city fare ticket would have to be 100% inclusive 100% of the time. It could be rolled out as applicable across the network.

Yeah because there is capacity for trains going to Atlantic Terminal, so it's easy to have a discount if you're going there. The demand is much higher going to Penn Station, and that's where you have capacity issues.

[QM1to6Ave]

On 1/27/2021 at 4:51 PM, bobtehpanda said:

 

Atlantic Ticket is basically this, just for Atlantic Terminal. 

A good point brought up at the LIRR Today is that because of poor advertisement and the general crappiness of ticket machines, it is still entirely possible to buy a normal off-peak or peak fare when your trip is eligible for City or Atlantic Ticket; either has to be specifically requested. So there are still a significant amount of people buying Zone 1/3 fares that really, really should be getting fare savings.

I don't necessarily think a reduced city fare ticket would have to be 100% inclusive 100% of the time. It could be rolled out as applicable across the network.

I think I remember a proposal that the machines should be reprogrammed to automatically offer the lowest cost option, but obviously the MTA has no motivation to do that. Maybe a nice conductor would point it out to a customer or something 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I think I remember a proposal that the machines should be reprogrammed to automatically offer the lowest cost option, but obviously the MTA has no motivation to do that. Maybe a nice conductor would point it out to a customer or something 

Most of them won't bother because if you already bought the ticket, they'll just check it and keep it moving. 

[N6 Limited]

16 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I think I remember a proposal that the machines should be reprogrammed to automatically offer the lowest cost option, but obviously the MTA has no motivation to do that. Maybe a nice conductor would point it out to a customer or something 

Because of the available fare options, they can't necessarily enable that. City ticket and Atlantic Ticket must be used on the date of purchase, there's no guarantee that the rider is going to use the ticket that same day.  Unless you're saying when you first enter in the origin and destination stations, the purchase options should show up from lowest to highest cost order with an explanation? 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Most of them won't bother because if you already bought the ticket, they'll just check it and keep it moving. 

I've seen conductors inform riders about using higher priced tickets than necessary. (Like passengers using a peak ticket on the weekend, etc), but yes most of them won't bother.

[QM1to6Ave]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Because of the available fare options, they can't necessarily enable that. City ticket and Atlantic Ticket must be used on the date of purchase, there's no guarantee that the rider is going to use the ticket that same day.  Unless you're saying when you first enter in the origin and destination stations, the purchase options should show up from lowest to highest cost order with an explanation? 

I've seen conductors inform riders about using higher priced tickets than necessary. (Like passengers using a peak ticket on the weekend, etc), but yes most of them won't bother.

I think a politician proposed it some point without necessarily thinking through those details LOL. But yes, some sort of pop up saying "If you are riding the train today, try this cheaper option instead" would be nice. Maybe that's too difficult on those TVMs that still run on like Windows 2000 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Because of the available fare options, they can't necessarily enable that. City ticket and Atlantic Ticket must be used on the date of purchase, there's no guarantee that the rider is going to use the ticket that same day.  Unless you're saying when you first enter in the origin and destination stations, the purchase options should show up from lowest to highest cost order with an explanation? 

I've seen conductors inform riders about using higher priced tickets than necessary. (Like passengers using a peak ticket on the weekend, etc), but yes most of them won't bother.

There are some riders that won't care because they just want to get rid of the ticket, while some legitimately don't know.  Even on the e-ticket option, if you are riding within the City on weekends, it won't automatically select City Ticket. You have to go and select it yourself. It's mindboggling how behind the  is compared to other transit agencies.

[paulrivera]

12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Most of them won't bother because if you already bought the ticket, they'll just check it and keep it moving.

The most I've ever got from a conductor is if I took a local train instead of an express train whenever there's an express stopping at both my boarding station and final destination. 🤷‍♂️

[N6 Limited]

19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There are some riders that won't care because they just want to get rid of the ticket, while some legitimately don't know.  Even on the e-ticket option, if you are riding within the City on weekends, it won't automatically select City Ticket. You have to go and select it yourself. It's mindboggling how behind the  is compared to other transit agencies.

I think they rely on passenger ignorance to milk as much money out of them as possible. On the Atlantic Ticket study, they saw that passengers bought:

• Off peak and/or peak tickets for travel between Brooklyn and Queens
• Atlantic ticket Single ride use on the weekend when City Ticket was cheaper

And they were basically like "oh well ".

You also have crazy like intermediate travel within zone 3 Atlantic Ticket Station rates:

• Peak: $5.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00
• Off Peak: $4.00

If the machine gives you the $4 ticket and its not off peak hours you might harassed for $1.50 because Atlantic Ticket can only be purchased from the Machine. And even then, they may not let you buy an Atlantic Ticket for travel fully within Queens (I don't remember, it's been a while since I've bought one).

Intermediate Brooklyn travel , Zone 1:

• Peak: $9.50
• Off Peak $6.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00

Here, you can see why they hope you don't know your fare options.

You have to know the conditions of travel before intentionally buying those tickets, which they implemented to prevent abuse (And to track daily sales/use). Though, I think they also wanted to limit customer service complaints of people getting the wrong tickets from the machines, like not being able to use a City Ticket on Monday, or a Conductor giving them a hard time for having the "wrong" ticket.

I'm not sure how OMNY is going to work but they may be able to automatically charge the lowest fare depending on the time of tap in/ tap out (if they go with that system).

[R10 2952]

4 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I think they rely on passenger ignorance to milk as much money out of them as possible. On the Atlantic Ticket study, they saw that passengers bought:

• Off peak and/or peak tickets for travel between Brooklyn and Queens
• Atlantic ticket Single ride use on the weekend when City Ticket was cheaper

And they were basically like "oh well ".

You also have crazy like intermediate travel within zone 3 Atlantic Ticket Station rates:

• Peak: $5.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00
• Off Peak: $4.00

If the machine gives you the $4 ticket and its not off peak hours you might harassed for $1.50 because Atlantic Ticket can only be purchased from the Machine. And even then, they may not let you buy an Atlantic Ticket for travel fully within Queens (I don't remember, it's been a while since I've bought one).

Intermediate Brooklyn travel , Zone 1:

• Peak: $9.50
• Off Peak $6.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00

Here, you can see why they hope you don't know your fare options.

You have to know the conditions of travel before intentionally buying those tickets, which they implemented to prevent abuse (And to track daily sales/use). Though, I think they also wanted to limit customer service complaints of people getting the wrong tickets from the machines, like not being able to use a City Ticket on Monday, or a Conductor giving them a hard time for having the "wrong" ticket.

I'm not sure how OMNY is going to work but they may be able to automatically charge the lowest fare depending on the time of tap in/ tap out (if they go with that system).

 

I agree, but I would go on to say that the fare-zoning shenanigans are indicative of a larger problem with how LIRR is managed in general.  The railroad bigwigs have blinders on not just when it come to fares, but basically anything that doesn't involve their "grand vision" of the third-track project, ESA, and trying to maximize Main Line service to Penn while simultaneously de-emphasizing any other line or destination within the so-called City Terminal Zone.

Ideally, public transit is supposed to be maximizing people's access to numerous options, but instead you have a buch of honchos at 93-02 Sutphin Boulevard who refuse to see anything beyond the 10 feet directly in front of them...  it's no way to run a railroad, in the literal sense of the old saying.

[B35 via Church]

It shouldn't be a secret that the LIRR blatantly punishes intra-city commuters with the fare structure... Atlantic Ticket & City Ticket these nuts - especially when those shits were/are halfheartedly advertised system-wide & aren't being made conducive to using for the masses of intra-city commuters that could stand to benefit from cheaper fares.... The LIRR is not disparate like the suits like to believe that it is.... There is & will always exist a certain cohesion b/w it & NYC's subways.

Novel concept to have the LIRR running through NYC, but not have it benefiting NYC's patrons in the process.

[Mtatransit]

If I were to guess what the RR's thinks of their customers and their operation based on their service patterns it would be as the follows

 

"We are designed to serve Suffolk and Nassau residents from their home station to New York Penn Station". 

"We are passing Queens, so lets just let our super local stop there to see if we can pick up a few passengers. They are just cream on the top, not our priority passengers"

"City riders could either pay our price or take the wonderful local bus system to Jamaica for the  "

"Nobody would ever travel from Central Nassau to Southern Nassau or Suffolk. If they do, we still provide them a routing via Jamaica so its not a biggie"

"People prefer express stations, so we should have every other local skip this station just because"

"We wish we would only have one terminal and that is NYP. HPA,LIC and AT gives us scheduling headaches, because they are there, we have to run trains on them"

"These politicians are complaining again, we have to do something, lets just shut them up by introducing Atlantic Ticket"

"We really hope people do not use Atlantic Ticket, we are the Railroad, we don't have the capacity because again we are the RAILROAD"

"How can we confuse passengers with multiple variety of ticket options so they would just select the simplest one OUR PEAK FARE"

"We hate those little branches in Nassau, lets just run it all local and serve those lowly Queens riders so our premium main line and Babylon folks don't have to"

"How can we replace the Greenport Scoot with buses"

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mtatransit

[NewFlyer 230]

On 1/30/2021 at 2:06 PM, N6 Limited said:

I think they rely on passenger ignorance to milk as much money out of them as possible. On the Atlantic Ticket study, they saw that passengers bought:

• Off peak and/or peak tickets for travel between Brooklyn and Queens
• Atlantic ticket Single ride use on the weekend when City Ticket was cheaper

And they were basically like "oh well ".

You also have crazy like intermediate travel within zone 3 Atlantic Ticket Station rates:

• Peak: $5.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00
• Off Peak: $4.00

If the machine gives you the $4 ticket and its not off peak hours you might harassed for $1.50 because Atlantic Ticket can only be purchased from the Machine. And even then, they may not let you buy an Atlantic Ticket for travel fully within Queens (I don't remember, it's been a while since I've bought one).

Intermediate Brooklyn travel , Zone 1:

• Peak: $9.50
• Off Peak $6.50
• Atlantic Ticket: $5.00

Here, you can see why they hope you don't know your fare options.

You have to know the conditions of travel before intentionally buying those tickets, which they implemented to prevent abuse (And to track daily sales/use). Though, I think they also wanted to limit customer service complaints of people getting the wrong tickets from the machines, like not being able to use a City Ticket on Monday, or a Conductor giving them a hard time for having the "wrong" ticket.

I'm not sure how OMNY is going to work but they may be able to automatically charge the lowest fare depending on the time of tap in/ tap out (if they go with that system).

To be honest I really didn’t know much about the Atlantic ticket myself until you mentioned it and I looked on the MTA’s website for more details and I would be considered a transit enthusiast so one would think I’d know. So if I barely knew what it was the average person definitely would not know. As far as the city ticket, I take advantage of it all the time especially if I’m going to Brooklyn, because traveling especially from eastern Queens to Downtown Brooklyn and or South Brooklyn can take forever depending on where you are coming from. I understand that the LIRR primarily caters to those who live in Nassau & Suffolk counties, but the MTA could potentially make some more bucks if they advertised the city ticket and Atlantic tickets, because I think a lot of people want to use the service, but avoid it due to how expensive it is in comparison to the bus to bus or bus to subway alternative. Of course many of them don’t know that they could save money. The MTA thinks they are slick by not informing people about the additional fare options that can help the rider save money but they themselves end up being the losers, because people will stick with paying $2.75 instead of potentially having folks paying $4.50 or $5 with the Atlantic/City tickets.

What benefit would OMNY have for LIRR riders especially if you can get tickets using the mobile app and or use your card/ tap your device at a ticket machine to get a ticket? The only benefit I can see is if they allow you to transfer between bus/subway and LIRR. It would be cool to pay $2.75 on the bus and they pay the remaining amount to match the price of a LIRR ticket. 

[trainfan22]

ALL of the stores on the LIRR concourse is now closed, all of them. I'm bummed about this cause I liked to eat at the Charley's there, get popcorn from the popcorn stands and wanted to try Rose Pizza.  All of that is gone now. Probably will be replaced with snobby high end stores like at GCT, I preferred Penn over GCT for the store selection alone. LIRR riders are going to miss grabbing a bear before hopping on the train home, I wonder if LIRR riders will utilize the high end stores that replaced the old stores...

 

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

ALL of the stores on the LIRR concourse is now closed, all of them. I'm bummed about this cause I liked to eat at the Charley's there, get popcorn from the popcorn stands and wanted to try Rose Pizza.  All of that is gone now. Probably will be replaced with snobby high end stores like at GCT, I preferred Penn over GCT for the store selection alone. LIRR riders are going to miss grabbing a bear before hopping on the train home, I wonder if LIRR riders will utilize the high end stores that replaced the old stores...

 

The plan is that they are doubling the width of the concourse to ease crowding. So it will be replaced by less retail.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

ALL of the stores on the LIRR concourse is now closed, all of them. I'm bummed about this cause I liked to eat at the Charley's there, get popcorn from the popcorn stands and wanted to try Rose Pizza.  All of that is gone now. Probably will be replaced with snobby high end stores like at GCT, I preferred Penn over GCT for the store selection alone. LIRR riders are going to miss grabbing a bear before hopping on the train home, I wonder if LIRR riders will utilize the high end stores that replaced the old stores...

 

Grabbing a bear... That they won't miss... lol What snobby high-end stores are you thinking of in GCT? The food has to be overpriced there because the rents are insane. A lot of the stores in the Concourse that I used to frequent are now closed (some closed even before COVID). Rents were too high, and not enough volume.

It's the  that sets the rents and they are high, and they know they can command the high rents because of it's area that draws a lot of people. Once One Vanderbilt opens and we get back to normal, you'll likely see all sorts of new things. They are currently renovating parts of GCT and it definitely needs it too.

 

I enjoyed the gelato shop and they have the donuts from Planet Donut that I love. There are a lot of places that closed though. That Scandinavian place is blah. Not great and overpriced. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Grabbing a bear... That they won't miss... lol What snobby high-end stores are you thinking of in GCT? The food has to be overpriced there because the rents are insane. A lot of the stores in the Concourse that I used to frequent are now closed (some closed even before COVID). Rents were too high, and not enough volume.

I feel like Exhibit A would probably be the Apple Store.

To be honest, if any transit area has this problem the worst, it's probably the mall with a transit station attached that is WTC.

Edited February 4, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I feel like Exhibit A would probably be the Apple Store.

To be honest, if any transit area has this problem the worst, it's probably the mall with a transit station attached that is WTC.

Well yes, the rent for the Apple location there is insane, but the  knows that Apple will pay it. Hell, even I have picked up things there for my iPad coming into Grand Central. Very convenient.

[QM1to6Ave]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:39 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well yes, the rent for the Apple location there is insane, but the  knows that Apple will pay it. Hell, even I have picked up things there for my iPad coming into Grand Central. Very convenient.

I’ve used that Apple store a few times as well...it’s better than the other ones I used in the city 

Funny thing is, a few years back I bought an IPad there, and they were trying to transfer my stuff onto it from iCloud, but the store internet was soooo slow. The workers told me that because of GCT rules, they couldn’t install a high speed internet connection because there were issues with drilling into the walls for cables, etc. I think it’s been fixed since then with newer technology, but it made me shake my head in disbelief 

even funnier, it turned out that the Genius who helped me had been in some of my classes in college, and we recognized each other years afterwards.