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Unplanned Subway Service Changes

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1 hour ago, Maxwell179 said:

(B) trains are running on the (C) line between 145 St and 168 St in both directions while emergency crews help someone who was struck by a train at 145 St.
Northbound (D) trains are running express from 145 St to 161 St-Yankee Stadium while emergency crews help a person who was struck by a train at 145 St.

Wouldn't Dyckman St make a better terminal?

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8 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Wouldn't Dyckman St make a better terminal?

Why? There's no reason to further increase run times for the crews, and on top of that impede (A) train movement on top of it. 

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17 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Wouldn't Dyckman St make a better terminal?

 If they're going to put that extra time on the cruise they might as well run the train of Bedford Park or 205th st.

 

If the 12-9 is on the NB local track, there is no route to the Bronx so 168 is the better option, (B) trains can easily be fit into the 10 minute (C) headway. Going to 200th would require fumigating at the station which would tank the (A) train and take the (B) that much further out of position when RCC is ready to 'go normal'. And the truth is once its announced the train is heading up the (C) line everyone will get off since they needed Concourse, so no sense in going all the way up Harlem carrying air.

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Wait a minute they can’t run the (B) express (And then local)  to Bedford Park? Why don’t they run (B) to Bedford and (D) to 205th like rush hour? I don’t see why the

(B) had to run to 168th .
There are switches at stations up ahead so they can switch back. 

Edited by Abba

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13 hours ago, Abba said:

Wait a minute they can’t run the (B) express (And then local)  to Bedford Park? Why don’t they run (B) to Bedford and (D) to 205th like rush hour? I don’t see why the

(B) had to run to 168th .
There are switches at stations up ahead so they can switch back. 

Think of the downsides:

 

Situation, 12-9 145LL local track. Possibly down 1 (B) train and crew if not, definitely a (D) crew and train.

 

Options turn at BPK or turn at 168 it is a 19 minute trip to BPK, plus a few minutes to change ends, and 19 minutes back down. So the train behind the next incident will take *40 minutes* to get back into action at 145th, which equates to 4 missed intervals. So the (D) will run local which means they slow down and interfere with the (N) at Dekalb and so on.

 

145 to 168 is 4 minutes each way, plus a 5 minute relay, which can be expedited by relay crews already in place, so we have an offline time around 10-15 minutes depending on luck. 1.5 intervals missed is a lot better than 4, and without the need to sink the (D) in the process.

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On 2/2/2020 at 12:04 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

I'd rather be at Franklin Avenue IND on my line rather than where Wallyhorse wanted to send "his" (C) train 😀

It makes sense for passengers in Manhattan from 4th Street northward looking for eastern Brooklyn and Queens to send the (C) in that scenario to Broadway Junction on the (J) via Broadway-Brooklyn (if the (C) is a 480' train) so they don't have to do the subway-to-bus-to-subway transfer if they are going past Broadway Junction southbound.  If need be you make such trains express to Broadway Junction going southbound and local northbound. 

Edited by Wallyhorse

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On 2/2/2020 at 6:24 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Exactly. My concern was about the train crew and the equipment. Looking at the time frame for the (C) that crew and train might have been scheduled to finish up at Euclid Avenue upon arrival.. It’s easy for us to be cavalier about these things but imagine sending this run back uptown , to who knows where, on a (C) train where scheduled service has ended for the night. Whether you end up at 168th, 207th, yard or station. An RTO guy like me would look at the time and ask  “now what “ ?  I’m uptown with this train from left field when I should be home or at least on my way. Depending on the supervision uptown I might have to take the consist back south to Pitkin yard.  Either way I have to make my way back to Euclid Avenue to sign out and get home. Emergency situations do happen every day but why make things worse ? I’m sure the people on Wallyhorse’s rerouted (C) train are happy tonight. Probably some of them will complain about the system the next day. Meanwhile the train crew is screwed over with no grease and the outside observers say it’s okay, they get paid, or something to that effect. I have been in this type of situation before. Turned back south at Chambers on my last trip to Lenox Avenue on a (3) . Sent back to Utica . G.O. in effect between there and New Lots. After the last scheduled (3) left Utica I made a trip in service to Lenox. I lived in Brooklyn at the other end.. To get home I had take a bus to 149th and the Concourse, the (4) to Fulton, the (A) to Broadway-East New York and a cab from there because I didn’t want to take the (L) to Rockaway Parkway for the B6 bus that ran once an hour. BTW the dispatcher that turned us was written up and transferred after we told some people what happened to us. I remember  that when I first started posting here some of my mentors would check out the postings and call me about  “ my little Lionels “ and some posts that they saw. Back then we had more active RTO people on the board and I was told that it was our job to explain the workings of our department. I’m still trying. The Surface boards have more active employees responding it seems. I was told that many people don’t realize that just because there are tracks in the system many are unused for a reason. Just my take. Carry on.

So basically you would have been better off (even with the turn) if you could have signed out at Utica and they had another crew take the train back to Lenox?

Are crew splits allowed in cases like this? For example, if your crew member lived closer to Lenox. Could you have dropped out at Utica, and had another member go with your Crew member back uptown? For operations and crew convenience?

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6 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

It makes sense for passengers in Manhattan from 4th Street northward looking for eastern Brooklyn and Queens to send the (C) in that scenario to Broadway Junction on the (J) via Broadway-Brooklyn (if the (C) is a 480' train) so they don't have to do the subway-to-bus-to-subway transfer if they are going past Broadway Junction southbound.  If need be you make such trains express to Broadway Junction going southbound and local northbound. 

Go back and read Abba's and Lex' take on the situation. Question remains, IMO, what happens to your rerouted (C)  train and crew after the passengers leave the train ?

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7 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

So basically you would have been better off (even with the turn) if you could have signed out at Utica and they had another crew take the train back to Lenox?

Are crew splits allowed in cases like this? For example, if your crew member lived closer to Lenox. Could you have dropped out at Utica, and had another member go with your Crew member back uptown? For operations and crew convenience?

 

7 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

So basically you would have been better off (even with the turn) if you could have signed out at Utica and they had another crew take the train back to Lenox?

Are crew splits allowed in cases like this? For example, if your crew member lived closer to Lenox. Could you have dropped out at Utica, and had another member go with your Crew member back uptown? For operations and crew convenience?

Because we got turned back to Utica Avenue we became an extra train. The supplement that was in effect for the evening meant that there were sufficient (3) trains to layup to the yard and enough (3) trains and crews at Utica to provide the n/b service to Lenox. The (4) trains were also in place to follow the last (3) northbound. What I was trying to get across to Wallyhorse and the other folks was exactly what happened. We weren’t supposed to be there at Utica, period, at that time. We got to Utica and we waited and waited some more.The last (3) and the first (4) left. We can’t go south to the yard because of the G.O. and the correct number of (3) trains were already in the yard for the morning service. There’s no (3) crews at Utica soooo.. we left after the first (4) in service to Lenox. My conductor lived in Harlem so when we arrived there and signed out he was home. I would normally have been home in Brooklyn by the time got to Lenox. To answer your question about split crews if things were somewhat normal, no G.O.,  many dispatchers would help me out. When I was a rookie M/M on the (3) many days we would be an hour or more behind. Supposed to sign out at 10:30 pm at Lenox and we’re still at Flatbush Avenue, or later New Lots, at that time. The Flatbush dispatchers would ask you where you lived and usually put an uptown person on the train instead of me operating and the other person deadheading with me. Back then most of my coworkers looked out for each other. The New Lots dispatcher was the opposite. He was afraid of his own shadow 😁. We were at New Lots one night and running over an hour late. He puts me on a train but before I could start arguing with him another oldtimer told me to be quiet kid and charge up the train with his tools and he and the motor instructor told me “ good night “  when we reached Pennsylvania Avenue. They knew that I lived out there and they knew that the dispatcher lived one block away from me. I remember some years later that the same dispatcher wanted me to walk with him a few days after someone mugged him. I just looked at him. Back then split crews, sharing operations, and things like that were done by supervisors and individuals because we looked out for each other. As long as nothing went wrong it was okay 👌🏾. Just my observation. Carry on.

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6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Go back and read Abba's and Lex' take on the situation. Question remains, IMO, what happens to your rerouted (C)  train and crew after the passengers leave the train ?

I get your point but the problem is the passengers don't care.  They care about getting home above all else (see the massive Twitter posts over the NJ Transit situation at Penn Station Monday night and how NJ Transit higher-ups got SLAMMED).  If for passengers going to Broadway Junction and points east means they avoid having to go from subway-to-bus and back-to subway and only have to make one transfer instead of two, it DOES make a difference,  

As for the rerouted (C), obviously it would depend on the G.O. situation.  If it's the end of service for the night AND the GO has NOT resolved, it would likely go to Broadway-Lafayette (if possible come in on the Southbound track) and from there reverse and head to Jay Street and run normal to Euclid.  If that is NOT possible, since at that point the (A) is local, such would go to 59th, get to the express track there and run in service as an extra running from there to Euclid via whatever route was available. 

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11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I get your point but the problem is the passengers don't care.  They care about getting home above all else (see the massive Twitter posts over the NJ Transit situation at Penn Station Monday night and how NJ Transit higher-ups got SLAMMED).  If for passengers going to Broadway Junction and points east means they avoid having to go from subway-to-bus and back-to subway and only have to make one transfer instead of two, it DOES make a difference,  

As for the rerouted (C), obviously it would depend on the G.O. situation.  If it's the end of service for the night AND the GO has NOT resolved, it would likely go to Broadway-Lafayette (if possible come in on the Southbound track) and from there reverse and head to Jay Street and run normal to Euclid.  If that is NOT possible, since at that point the (A) is local, such would go to 59th, get to the express track there and run in service as an extra running from there to Euclid via whatever route was available. 

@Wallyhorse, you may actually have a point here, but not totally. Passengers should come first unless there is some physical/safety reason why it cannot work:

  • Division B train on a Division A line;
  • or longer train entering a shorter station;
  • or consequences to the operations of other routes and/or service after recovery

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15 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

 

Back then split crews, sharing operations, and things like that were done by supervisors and individuals because we looked out for each other. As long as nothing went wrong it was okay 👌🏾. Just my observation. Carry on.

Yeah, now you sign in and out, the (MTA) will have its pound of flesh. Oh well, just cogs now.

 

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

@Wallyhorse, you may actually have a point here, but not totally. Passengers should come first unless there is some physical/safety reason why it cannot work:

  • Division B train on a Division A line;
  • or longer train entering a shorter station;
  • or consequences to the operations of other routes and/or service after recovery

The question is *which* passengers should come first. To the passengers who already boarded north of W4th, you may very well be a hero. But the Major draws on the line are Hoyt, Utica, B'way Jct. A double shuttle can't be run since the switches at Lafayette are locked out, so no trains are circulating at all between B'way Jct and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Utica is the most popular stop on the entire line because of bus connections, mainly going south. Franklin is people looking for the shuttle for the same reason. Bway Jct and East are people for ENY. If you send trains to Bway Jct on the (J) you'll very quickly have half the (C) trains available on an adventure on the Jamaica EL, which is royally screwing everyone in Brooklyn hoping for service to resume. Better for every one to run the trains into Brooklyn so people can get the (F) at Jay St or the (2)(3)(4)(5) so they can still catch the B46, etc etc at Fulton which will give most people the flexibility they need to get around the problem.  It's unrealistic to expect the B25 to be able to cope with trainloads of people, and I think a  lot of customers instinctively know not to try to grab the B25 in this case...at least not at Jay St

Dispatchers also have an implicit responsibility to save the company money, so littering the railroad with trains and sending crews to out of the way locations only for them to have to run lite or deadhead around the system is going to cost money, and cause headlines such as 'MTA pays train crew to just ride subway, look how much overtime they're making' etc etc. There's really no justification to sending the (C) to Bway Junction, the options been there for 50 years and it hasn't been done for a reason. As for Passengers coming first, sure.

It still needs to be borne in mind employee morale and fatigue are still real things, Aviation learned this the hard way and made a lot of corpses doing it where everything was go-go-go and you as a crew member don't have any recourse if you're physically unfit/unwell from spending 6-8 straight hours in the cab. Fatigue is a rather insidious thing, it generally doesn't get you right away few days of being stranded will get to you.

 If the system were in the habit of just lobbing trains at random terminals constantly there'd be a lot of problems relating to fatigue. 

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4 hours ago, CenSin said:

@Wallyhorse, you may actually have a point here, but not totally. Passengers should come first unless there is some physical/safety reason why it cannot work:

  • Division B train on a Division A line;
  • or longer train entering a shorter station;
  • or consequences to the operations of other routes and/or service after recovery

As I said, that ASSUMES the (C) is still a 480' train.  If it isn't, obviously that can't be done. 

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2 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Yeah, now you sign in and out, the (MTA) will have its pound of flesh. Oh well, just cogs now.

 

The question is *which* passengers should come first. To the passengers who already boarded north of W4th, you may very well be a hero. But the Major draws on the line are Hoyt, Utica, B'way Jct. A double shuttle can't be run since the switches at Lafayette are locked out, so no trains are circulating at all between B'way Jct and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Utica is the most popular stop on the entire line because of bus connections, mainly going south. Franklin is people looking for the shuttle for the same reason. Bway Jct and East are people for ENY. If you send trains to Bway Jct on the (J) you'll very quickly have half the (C) trains available on an adventure on the Jamaica EL, which is royally screwing everyone in Brooklyn hoping for service to resume. Better for every one to run the trains into Brooklyn so people can get the (F) at Jay St or the (2)(3)(4)(5) so they can still catch the B46, etc etc at Fulton which will give most people the flexibility they need to get around the problem.  It's unrealistic to expect the B25 to be able to cope with trainloads of people, and I think a  lot of customers instinctively know not to try to grab the B25 in this case...at least not at Jay St

Dispatchers also have an implicit responsibility to save the company money, so littering the railroad with trains and sending crews to out of the way locations only for them to have to run lite or deadhead around the system is going to cost money, and cause headlines such as 'MTA pays train crew to just ride subway, look how much overtime they're making' etc etc. There's really no justification to sending the (C) to Bway Junction, the options been there for 50 years and it hasn't been done for a reason. As for Passengers coming first, sure.

It still needs to be borne in mind employee morale and fatigue are still real things, Aviation learned this the hard way and made a lot of corpses doing it where everything was go-go-go and you as a crew member don't have any recourse if you're physically unfit/unwell from spending 6-8 straight hours in the cab. Fatigue is a rather insidious thing, it generally doesn't get you right away few days of being stranded will get to you.

 If the system were in the habit of just lobbing trains at random terminals constantly there'd be a lot of problems relating to fatigue. 

I get all that.  The idea here, though is to have people as much as possible who have the longest trips have the least amount of headaches possible.

In this particular case, as quickly as possible I also would have had the (A) running from Utica Avenue with the switches there.  People who would have to take the (C) to the Broadway Junction (J) station could then have taken the (A) back towards Utica if they station was between there and Bway Junction.  I also would have had (A) service to Jay, so people in lower Manhattan could have at Fulton switched the (J) and used THAT to get to Broadway Junction and do the same thing.  

Obviously there are limits to everything and one thing I would always have is provisions in place to allow for if x portion of y line is unavailable do this for example.  It would not be perfect but there would be guidelines for having to make changes on the fly in emergency situations. 

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14 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I get all that.  The idea here, though is to have people as much as possible who have the longest trips have the least amount of headaches possible.

 

The goal should be to do the maximum amount of good for the maximum amount of people; also the Tower at Utica is closed outside of GOs, so until you can scramble someone out there, that isn't viable. This is why service is was cut at Broadway Junction.

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3 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

The question is *which* passengers should come first. To the passengers who already boarded north of W4th, you may very well be a hero. But the Major draws on the line are Hoyt, Utica, B'way Jct. A double shuttle can't be run since the switches at Lafayette are locked out, so no trains are circulating at all between B'way Jct and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Utica is the most popular stop on the entire line because of bus connections, mainly going south. Franklin is people looking for the shuttle for the same reason. Bway Jct and East are people for ENY. If you send trains to Bway Jct on the (J) you'll very quickly have half the (C) trains available on an adventure on the Jamaica EL, which is royally screwing everyone in Brooklyn hoping for service to resume. Better for every one to run the trains into Brooklyn so people can get the (F) at Jay St or the (2)(3)(4)(5) so they can still catch the B46, etc etc at Fulton which will give most people the flexibility they need to get around the problem.  It's unrealistic to expect the B25 to be able to cope with trainloads of people, and I think a  lot of customers instinctively know not to try to grab the B25 in this case...at least not at Jay St

Dispatchers also have an implicit responsibility to save the company money, so littering the railroad with trains and sending crews to out of the way locations only for them to have to run lite or deadhead around the system is going to cost money, and cause headlines such as 'MTA pays train crew to just ride subway, look how much overtime they're making' etc etc. There's really no justification to sending the (C) to Bway Junction, the options been there for 50 years and it hasn't been done for a reason. As for Passengers coming first, sure.

It still needs to be borne in mind employee morale and fatigue are still real things, Aviation learned this the hard way and made a lot of corpses doing it where everything was go-go-go and you as a crew member don't have any recourse if you're physically unfit/unwell from spending 6-8 straight hours in the cab. Fatigue is a rather insidious thing, it generally doesn't get you right away few days of being stranded will get to you.

 If the system were in the habit of just lobbing trains at random terminals constantly there'd be a lot of problems relating to fatigue. 

Your blurb is succinctly summarized by the third point:

6 hours ago, CenSin said:
  • or consequences to the operations of other routes and/or service after recovery

 

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On 2/3/2020 at 10:23 PM, Abba said:

Wait a minute they can’t run the (B) express (And then local)  to Bedford Park? Why don’t they run (B) to Bedford and (D) to 205th like rush hour?

They did just that once when the crew facilities at 145th Street were out of service several years ago. They had to run the (B) on 15 minute headways during the midday and run the northbound trains express in the Bronx to keep the same number of crews and equipment on the line.

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2 hours ago, paulrivera said:

They did just that once when the crew facilities at 145th Street were out of service several years ago. They had to run the (B) on 15 minute headways during the midday and run the northbound trains express in the Bronx to keep the same number of crews and equipment on the line.

And that explains why we don't have midday (B)ronx service...

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Just spotted an (R) southbound at 9 Avenue leaving the station with passengers—and going express down the middle track.

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On 2/6/2020 at 1:09 AM, paulrivera said:

They did just that once when the crew facilities at 145th Street were out of service several years ago. They had to run the (B) on 15 minute headways during the midday and run the northbound trains express in the Bronx to keep the same number of crews and equipment on the line.

Cheap ass (MTA) as always.

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On 2/6/2020 at 1:09 AM, paulrivera said:

They did just that once when the crew facilities at 145th Street were out of service several years ago. They had to run the (B) on 15 minute headways during the midday and run the northbound trains express in the Bronx to keep the same number of crews and equipment on the line.

 

1 hour ago, Jemorie said:

Cheap ass (MTA) as always

Speaking of which, they're too cheap to extend the (R) to 179th st when the (E) and (F) run local, but are fine with the (R) blocking thru-traffic and causing delays at 71st Ave? 😕

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Local to Express  Posted: 02/11/2020 12:58AM

Jamaica-bound (E) trains are running on the express track from Queens Plaza to Forest Hills-71 Av because of signal maintenance near Court Sq-23 St.

For service to/from the bypassed stations, take a Manhattan-bound train.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven

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(R) local southbound at 20 Avenue on the West End Line a few minutes ago—in passenger service

Is this a regular thing? I’be been seeing them more often than I expected to.

Edited by CenSin
then → than

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4 hours ago, CenSin said:

(R) local southbound at 20 Avenue on the West End Line a few minutes ago—in passenger service

Is this a regular thing? I’be been seeing them more often than I expected to.

It was likely because of the signal problem at 14th Street. (D) trains were running southbound via Culver.

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Don’t tell me a northbound (N) or (W) train  struck someone north of 59th st  and everyone on that train had to suffer during the investigation. 

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