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CenSin

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Here are my thoughts on SAS:

 

  1. The line to 125 St should reduce the overcrowding on the (6). I still expect the (6) to be fairly full, mainly because the (4) and (5) will continue to be overcrowded, and thus riders will eventually gravitate to the (6) for a less crowded and more reliable ride.
  2. From a systemwide perspective, the 125 St line should be medium to high priority due to high bus ridership along that corridor. Building the link will allow for easier east-west side travel, and get rid of permanent standstill traffic on 125 St. In an ideal world, the line would be part of the Triboro RX, but it will still work as a branch of SAS.
  3. There's not many alternatives for a Bronx SAS extension since I expect (T) trains to run under 125 St. There's two prevailing ideas on where such an extension should go. The high ridership, more expensive route would go to Coop City via 3rd/Webster/Park, Fordham Road, and Pelham Parkway. The lower-impact but much cheaper alternative is to send the line via mainline ROW to E 180 St, with a transfer at Hunts Point Ave, and onto Eastchester - Dyre Ave, with a potential branch under Pelham Parkway to Coop City. (5) trains would be rerouted to Woodlawn and Nereid Ave to boost service on those lines, and (2) / (6) riders would almost certainly transfer to the (Q), finally reducing the overcrowding on Lex Ave.
  4. If SAS ever makes it south of 63 St, a new line in Queens becomes high-priority to take advantage of the spare capacity that the (Q) leaves behind. Presumably the 63 St line is extended to Forest Hills with stops at Woodhaven Blvd and Woodside, with potential for infill stations later.
Edited by Caelestor
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a (T) across 125 Street would be a better single-transfer option down the far east side for everywhere above that.

From a systemwide perspective, the 125 St line should be medium to high priority due to high bus ridership along that corridor. Building the link will allow for easier east-west side travel, and get rid of permanent standstill traffic on 125 St.

 

The two-route solution seems clear, then:

 

1) The (Q) should take advantage of the future bellmouths at 116th Street and run directly into the Bronx, skipping 125th Street. Considering the cost and disruption of construction, only the two 3rd Avenue stations should be served (@138&149), providing connections to the (2)(5)(6)<6>; this is a sufficient means of reducing the crowding on the Lexington Avenue line, as (4) riders can transfer at 125th Street to the (T) instead.

 

2) The (T) should run to 125th Street as planned, and then continue all the way to Broadway, as the line is already deep enough at 125th Street to run under the Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth avenue lines. This would allow very useful connections to the (1)(2)(3)(A)(B)(C)(D) across a relatively short span. The Broadway connection would be tricky due to the difference in elevation, but not impossible, though it should be a lower-priority goal overall.

 

Are you talking about the downtown level? The uptown one was removed a couple weeks ago.

 

I would like to see photographs or video footage of that!

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It all depends on exactly how narrow the tunnel was from the start. It doesn't sound like it was more than a couple of inches off. Of course, the old adage of "measure twice, cut once" applies here.

 

You're right in regards to testing aspect. However, it's not a matter of maximum flexibility, but the very likely scenario that at the very least, a 68 could wind up on the extension. The (Q) does use 68s from time to time, so it wouldn't be some rare occurrence to have one run up to 96 Street.

 

See my previous response above.

 

See my comment above in regards to flexibility and inevitability. Also, never say never. While out of the question now, there's always the possibility of 75-footer cars returning to the subway.

If anything, for the B Division I would go with 67-foot cars with the intention of eventually lengthening ALL stations in the B division to handle 670-foot trains (10 cars of 67 feet each).  Many of the Eastern Division stations actually can handle eight-car sets of 67-footers (meaning though a tight fit they could actually handle nine-car trains of 60-footers now) and that can be a way to add length to trains and more room.

 

Otherwise, they do need to make sure the tunnels can handle 75 footers in case re-routes necessitate lines using them to go to the SAS.

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Honestly, why not build a basic cut and cover, no-crossover station at 125 Street and 2 Avenue (in the event of a Bronx extension)? It's not as if that area's a desert island; there's apartment buildings to the southeast and a bit of a commercial zone immediately west.

If anything, for the B Division I would go with 67-foot cars with the intention of eventually lengthening ALL stations in the B division to handle 670-foot trains (10 cars of 67 feet each). Many of the Eastern Division stations actually can handle eight-car sets of 67-footers (meaning though a tight fit they could actually handle nine-car trains of 60-footers now) and that can be a way to add length to trains and more room.

 

Otherwise, they do need to make sure the tunnels can handle 75 footers in case re-routes necessitate lines using them to go to the SAS.

It would be interesting to see the (MTA) revisit 67 foot cars like they did with the R110Bs.
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Honestly, why not build a basic cut and cover, no-crossover station at 125 Street and 2 Avenue (in the event of a Bronx extension)?

There is an interesting discussion on SAS: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/03/06/16153/. See the comments.

 

 

Mike from Whitestone says:

March 7, 2016 at 3:23 pm

 

By having stations at 3rd Ave-138th St and 3 Ave-149th St, the SAS would certainly provide relief and would certainly accomplish at least some of its purpose at the northern end. How would it not do that? Transfers would be available to the 2 and 5 trains at 3rd/149 and to the 6 at 3rd/138. And because both of those stations have both uptown and downtown trains stopping on the same level (unlike 125/Lex), the transfers would be much easier to make and would more likely be better-used than a long, deep-level transfer at 125. The 125th & Lex transfer station is a “penny-wise, pound-foolish” solution.

The only way the SAS will fully accomplish its purpose is to go south of 63rd St. But that’s going to be much further into the future (if at all).

 

 

Ryan says:

March 8, 2016 at 9:02 am

 

Building this thing in such a way that it guarantees any proposal for a Bronx extension either fails CBA to a hilarious degree or requires essentially an entire new line (ie express tracks) to service it is a very curious way to “help” Bronx riders.

You mention the great unlikelihood that 2 Av trains will ever reach the Bronx as you sit here arguing for one of the largest reasons why that will be so! In contrast, here’s an incontrovertible fact: if all the money wasted on the 125 St turnout is instead diverted to extending Phase 2 to 3 Av – 148 St instead of Park/Lex Avs – 125 St, then the line will already be in the Bronx.

An out-of-system transfer is all that is necessary while we look for funding to make that tunnel happen, because the elephant in the room is that the transfer could be a timed and guided walk across the platform and the overwhelming majority of riders who would take advantage of this transfer are those who are trying to get to locations east of Third Avenue, who currently face at least a 1/4 mile walk anyway, who are going to make the out-of-system transfer because the ride down Second Avenue is both less congested and far more importantly gets them closer to where they want to go.

The Lexington Avenue line’s biggest issue is that it’s stuck serving way too many markets, trying to accomodate too many different people. The Second Avenue line doesn’t need to (in fact, it can’t) service every market that the Lexington Avenue lines do. An out of system transfer, combined with everyone living on or east of 2 Av who now take the the train that goes under their street instead of the one 1/4 mile over, is enough to provide relief to the Lex.

If you disagree, I welcome your opinion. If you believe that serving 125 is more valuable than serving the Bronx, that’s just fine. But you need to acknowledge the realities of Phase 2 as designed:

1) It neither serves the Bronx nor helps Bronx ridership,

2) It all but guarantees that Second Avenue services never will.

 

 

Dexter says:

March 7, 2016 at 11:29 am

 

Or just make Phase II end at 3rd Avenue-149th Street. Not only would you guarantee The Bronx the two branches it deserves, but you’d also get the under river tunnel out of the way now while it’s cheaper to do so. A terminal at The Hub would do a lot more to relieve Lexington Avenue congestion than a terminal at Lex and 125th.

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When it comes to priorities, it might be best (cost-wise) to shelve phases 3 and 4 altogether, and instead bring the (Q) up to 3rd Avenue – 149th Street as soon as possible. Perhaps in the more distant future, the (T) can run from Broadway – 125th Street over and down to Hanover Square. Economically, and considering the demographics most in need, this makes the most sense.

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When it comes to priorities, it might be best (cost-wise) to shelve phases 3 and 4 altogether, and instead bring the (Q) up to 3rd Avenue – 149th Street as soon as possible. Perhaps in the more distant future, the (T) can run from Broadway – 125th Street over and down to Hanover Square. Economically, and considering the demographics most in need, this makes the most sense.

 

The big elephant in the room with that one is East Side Access. Currently, the need for SAS Phases III and IV is not that pressing, but the moment you have Long Islanders filtering into GCT trying to head downtown, everyone will be SOL.

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The big elephant in the room with that one is East Side Access. Currently, the need for SAS Phases III and IV is not that pressing, but the moment you have Long Islanders filtering into GCT trying to head downtown, everyone will be SOL.

 

At the earliest, that will be in 2022, right? Besides, if the (Q) were to be extended two stations into the Bronx by that time, the Lexington line will have been sufficiently unloaded to accommodate the new Long Island crowds.

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At the earliest, that will be in 2022, right? Besides, if the (Q) were to be extended two stations into the Bronx by that time, the Lexington line will have been sufficiently unloaded to accommodate the new Long Island crowds.

 

From my experiences, the most overcrowded section of the Lex is 14 St - 125 St, with 125 St having lots of (6) riders transferring and Union Sq being the transfer point for  (N)(Q)(L) riders and (B)(D)(F) (M) via Bleecker St. While the (Q) will take a circuitous but one-seat ride up to the UES, I consider SAS Phase 3 absolutely needed to divert (F)(L) riders from Lex Ave. Ideally, Phase 3 should end at Grand St for the (B)(D) transfer as well.

 

On the other hand, one could argue that the LIRR riders are better off going to Atlantic Ave for Lower Manhattan, so I actually don't see considerably worse crowds south of 14 St. It might take some time for Phase 4 to ever come off the planing table.

Edited by Caelestor
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From my experiences, the most overcrowded section of the Lex is 14 St - 125 St, with 125 St having lots of (6) riders transferring and Union Sq being the transfer point for  (N)(Q)(L) riders and (B)(D)(F) via Bleecker St. While the (Q) will take a circuitous but one-seat ride up to the UES, I consider SAS Phase 3 absolutely needed to divert (F)(L) riders from Lex Ave. Ideally, Phase 3 should end at Grand St for the (B)(D) transfer as well.

 

Of course this section should still be built; I'm just considering the priorities due to budget constraints. It would cost far less to dig straight north to reach the two 3rd Avenue stations in the Bronx. Phase 3 seems to be the most expensive in the entire project.

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Of course this section should still be built; I'm just considering the priorities due to budget constraints. It would cost far less to dig straight north to reach the two 3rd Avenue stations in the Bronx. Phase 3 seems to be the most expensive in the entire project.

 

A Bronx-bound (Q) would serve a very different ridership than the (4)(5). The (Q) is for Midtown West riders, but I think the (4)(5) are still the go-to for Downtown passengers. Don't get me wrong, it will be extremely useful, but I just don't think it will relieve crowding on the Lex Express trains significantly.

 

As for ESA, no one knows how it will impact the Lex Ave line exactly. I actually think the number of LIRR riders heading downtown on the (4)(5) are overrated, especially compared to the volume of transfers from the (N)(Q)(L)(B)(D)(F)(M), which I expect to severely worsen due to current gentrification trends.

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From my experiences, the most overcrowded section of the Lex is 14 St - 125 St, with 125 St having lots of (6) riders transferring and Union Sq being the transfer point for  (N)(Q)(L) riders and (B)(D)(F)  (M) via Bleecker St. While the (Q) will take a circuitous but one-seat ride up to the UES, I consider SAS Phase 3 absolutely needed to divert (F)(L) riders from Lex Ave. Ideally, Phase 3 should end at Grand St for the (B)(D) transfer as well.

 

On the other hand, one could argue that the LIRR riders are better off going to Atlantic Ave for Lower Manhattan, so I actually don't see considerably worse crowds south of 14 St. It might take some time for Phase 4 to ever come off the planing table.

 

There will be no more direct trains from Atlantic to Long Island once ESA is completed; you will have to go up a level, cross all of Jamaica Station, and then go down a level to change trains. I highly doubt that anyone is going to do that over taking the (4)(5)(6).

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The big elephant in the room with that one is East Side Access. Currently, the need for SAS Phases III and IV is not that pressing, but the moment you have Long Islanders filtering into GCT trying to head downtown, everyone will be SOL.

 

Phase 3 should also be built, so we can add service on Queens Blvd, or build the Queens bypass (call it the (V) ) to another Manhattan trunk, this time on the East Side (as opposed to Midtown via the (F)(M) or the West side via the (E)) hopefully reducing the number of people on the (6) transferring to the (E)(M) at 51st Street or (R) at 59th Street and vice versa. Somehow get the RBB back running and you could tie it in there, too.

 

Plus, if you build an Avenue A spur south of 23rd Street with a connection to the (F) tracks, you now have a local service to Manhattan (as opposed to the (F) express)

 

I hope they somehow manage to build Phases 2 and 3 at the same time.

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They're not mutually exclusive. The (Q) would terminate at Broadway (how fitting), while the (T) would continue north in a straight line from 116, skipping 125, straight into the Bronx. I recall reading that north-facing bellmouths would be appended after 116 before the main line dives deep to pass under the Lexington line.

As I will explain below, a second branch in The Bronx would do 10x more to relieve the Lex, than a 125th Street crosstown ever would.

 

I still think the line should go to 3rd Avenue-149 Street before it goes across 125 Street...

I agree. Instead of sending a branch down a corridor that can be walked, I think that the split should be in The Bronx. The one of the primary goals of the SAS is to relieve crowding on the Lexington Avenue Line. Phase 2 terminating at 3rd Avenue-149th Street would be a better first step to relieving connection on the Lex than terminating at Lexington-125. Providing quicker transfers to the (2) and (5) at the terminal, and the (6) at 138th Street. Being that it's The Bronx, the need for deep bore tunnels wouldn't be as important. In my view anyway, because there are less obstructions and vocal rich people to anger. The transfers to these lines could then be achieved quicker as you wont need to go down a good distance to meet your transfer.

 

The next northbound step to relief is to split the line around 163rd Street. The first branch heading straight up Third Avenue to at least Fordham Plaza as its first step. Further extensions north and then east to Co-Op City (providing more transfers to the Metro-North, Bx12 and 41 SBS as well as the (2) and (5) services along the way) would further that relief and maybe even take some passengers away from the (4) and (D). The second branch, after turning east onto 163rd, would pretty much follow the path of the original IND Second Phase plans for the South Bronx Line. How can you get even more relief from the Lex if you don't address the areas served by the local in it's northern extremities? A line along Lafayette Avenue to Throgs Neck, or at least even Castle Hill Ave (worrying about a future eastern extension later) could suffice to do the job. There is almost all residential and project housing along that path. At least from what I can see, the combination of these two branches would do more to relieve not only congestion on the Lex, but some from the Concourse-CPW-6th Avenue services as well. Way more than a crosstown subway along 125th Street ever would. I could go further, but I don't have the time right now.

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Phase 2 terminating at 3rd Avenue-149th Street would be a better first step to relieving connection on the Lex than terminating at Lexington-125. Providing quicker transfers to the (2) and (5) at the terminal, and the (6) at 138th Street. Being that it's The Bronx, the need for deep bore tunnels wouldn't be as important. In my view anyway, because there are less obstructions and vocal rich people to anger. The transfers to these lines could then be achieved quicker as you wont need to go down a good distance to meet your transfer.

 

I completely agree with that; I've since updated my opinion on the matter.

 

I don't think that this would preclude a crosstown line along 125th Street, but perhaps there could be a separate (S) line called the 125th Street Shuttle, connecting the (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(A)(B)(C)(D) lines, if the Bronx absolutely needs two branches (I don't think it does, but that's my Manhattan bias). Certainly, Harlem needs better crosstown connections.

Edited by Skipper
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I don't think that this would preclude a crosstown line along 125th Street, but perhaps there could be a separate (S) line called the 125th Street Shuttle, connecting the (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(A)(B)(C)(D) lines, if the Bronx absolutely needs two branches (I don't think it does, but that's my Manhattan bias). Certainly, Harlem needs better crosstown connections.

 

Agree. Something should link the lines along 125th. I don't see a need for it to reach the  (1), but definitely the other lines. 

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I completely agree with that; I've since updated my opinion on the matter.

 

I don't think that this would preclude a crosstown line along 125th Street, but perhaps there could be a separate (S) line called the 125th Street Shuttle, connecting the (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(A)(B)(C)(D) lines, if the Bronx absolutely needs two branches (I don't think it does, but that's my Manhattan bias). Certainly, Harlem needs better crosstown connections.

 

I mentioned that the best option for the 125 St line is to be part of the circumferential Triboro RX. This allows for 30 tph to spread all over the Bronx. The question is if the MTA will consider doing so - I lean towards no.

 

Agree. Something should link the lines along 125th. I don't see a need for it to reach the  (1), but definitely the other lines. 

 

Actually, the (1) stop is the most important for access to Columbia. The station doesn't need to be connected to the elevated stop, as an out-of-system transfer should suffice.

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I mentioned that the best option for the 125 St line is to be part of the circumferential Triboro RX. This allows for 30 tph to spread all over the Bronx. The question is if the MTA will consider doing so - I lean towards no.

 

Well, step number 1 is to get them to even consider RX for funding.

 

RX's least compelling section is anything north of Queens Boulevard; Hell Gate could very plausibly run out of capacity once Penn Station Access starts, and that entire segment is also probably the most expensive part.

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I completely agree with that; I've since updated my opinion on the matter.

 

I don't think that this would preclude a crosstown line along 125th Street, but perhaps there could be a separate (S) line called the 125th Street Shuttle, connecting the (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(A)(B)(C)(D) lines, if the Bronx absolutely needs two branches (I don't think it does, but that's my Manhattan bias). Certainly, Harlem needs better crosstown connections.

Or an underground light rail. Heavy rail service should go straight to The Bronx. While the 125 Street corridor is quite congested, I don't think entire swaths of The Bronx should be robbed of a subway. The goal here is maximum relief of the Lex. You can't do that if The Bronx doesn't get that second branch. Secondly, aside from the 1, 2, and 3 services, all other lines start running express past that point. There would be no need to transfer to an indirect route downtown. If you need the east side, you'd transfer to the Lex services in The Bronx. Ergo, that would make the most sense. With the Q utilizing one if those branches, you've provided some kind of relief to Seventh Avenue as well by providing a reliable alternative to reaching Times Square and the surrounding districts.

 

A light rail under 125 would provide the needed distribution.

 

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Or an underground light rail. Heavy rail service should go straight to The Bronx. While the 125 Street corridor is quite congested, I don't think entire swaths of The Bronx should be robbed of a subway. The goal here is maximum relief of the Lex. You can't do that if The Bronx doesn't get that second branch. Secondly, aside from the 1, 2, and 3 services, all other lines start running express past that point. There would be no need to transfer to an indirect route downtown. If you need the east side, you'd transfer to the Lex services in The Bronx. Ergo, that would make the most sense. With the Q utilizing one if those branches, you've provided some kind of relief to Seventh Avenue as well by providing a reliable alternative to reaching Times Square and the surrounding districts.

 

A light rail under 125 would provide the needed distribution.

 

Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk

 

Past a certain point, there is no real cost distinction between building a light rail tunnel or building a subway tunnel if it's going to be fully grade separated; I'm sure that even if we were to build light rail tunnels, they would be built to B Division standards.

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Past a certain point, there is no real cost distinction between building a light rail tunnel or building a subway tunnel if it's going to be fully grade separated; I'm sure that even if we were to build light rail tunnels, they would be built to B Division standards.

Unless they would build B Div sized LRVs, I doubt it. You could use a single TBM (Double-O) for a two track LRV tunnel. I mean, unless we are shutting the corridor down to regular traffic, which ain't gonna happen, then underground has to be the choice.

 

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