Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Porter]

Agree. Something should link the lines along 125th. I don't see a need for it to reach the  , but definitely the other lines. 

 

I'd forgotten to add the new lines. Such a crosstown link (perhaps an ) should actually address the in total, and perhaps the could be an out-of-system transfer at worst.

 

Actually, the stop is the most important for access to Columbia. The station doesn't need to be connected to the elevated stop, as an out-of-system transfer should suffice.

 

I agree, although if you look at Google Maps, there is plenty of space for a connection here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8160238,-73.9585473,3a,64.4y,190.02h,96.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh-OAZqwdaCVoRCRlyjDOWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Or an underground light rail. Heavy rail service should go straight to The Bronx. While the 125 Street corridor is quite congested, I don't think entire swaths of The Bronx should be robbed of a subway. The goal here is maximum relief of the Lex. You can't do that if The Bronx doesn't get that second branch. Secondly, aside from the 1, 2, and 3 services, all other lines start running express past that point. There would be no need to transfer to an indirect route downtown. If you need the east side, you'd transfer to the Lex services in The Bronx. Ergo, that would make the most sense. With the Q utilizing one if those branches, you've provided some kind of relief to Seventh Avenue as well by providing a reliable alternative to reaching Times Square and the surrounding districts.

 

A light rail under 125 would provide the needed distribution.

 

A 125th Street Shuttle would mostly be intended to benefit residents living above Central Park, specifically Harlem. Any benefit to the Lexington line or the Bronx would be incidental yet welcome.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that the succeeds in securing funding for Phase 2 and constructs it as planned, with phases 3 and 4 temporarily shelved. The only viable option to bring the SAS to the Bronx would then be to use the spurs north of the 116th Street Station to feed one of the two branches into the Bronx. What else could reasonably be done?

Edited October 26, 2016 by Skipper

[Porter]

Oops. According to Wikipedia, 125th Street itself is a giant fault line, causing earthquakes as recently as 1981 and 2001.

[Wallyhorse]

The big elephant in the room with that one is East Side Access. Currently, the need for SAS Phases III and IV is not that pressing, but the moment you have Long Islanders filtering into GCT trying to head downtown, everyone will be SOL.

Which is one of the reasons (along with all the new skyscrapers planned) you may eventually need a FULL SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue Line (either as an EL or Subway).  That said, a Bronx portion of the SAS would be mainly to recapture what was lost when the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue EL was torn down after 1973 as I would do it while having the SAS go all the way across 125th Street to Broadway (with transfers to ALL of the other lines that run on 125) makes sense.  

[Wallyhorse]

Agree. Something should link the lines along 125th. I don't see a need for it to reach the  , but definitely the other lines. 

The is important because that's also Columbia University, which by the time this would happen will have completed its expansion.  That station (especially if there is also a new Metro-North station on 125th and 12th Avenue) is going to be very important in the future. 

[LTA1992]

What could be do e Skipper-san?

 

Evict hose who allowed that mistake to happen and replace them with people who have the needs of this city at the priority, and not just what's easier.

 

 

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[Porter]

Evict hose who allowed that mistake to happen and replace them with people who have the needs of this city at the priority, and not just what's easier.

 

How will these new ideal candidates send two branches into the Bronx once Phase 2 is complete?

[LTA1992]

How will these new ideal candidates send two branches into the Bronx once Phase 2 is complete?

I answered your question.

 

Read people. Never said anything about having a second branch in The Bronx if Phase II were to be completed as is. At that point, the damage has been done. It's now in the past. All that can be done from then on out is to make sure shoddy planning such as that never happens again.

 

You asked me what else could be done at that point. I gave an answer. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by LTA1992

[Porter]

Well, that's a defeatist way to look at it. Personally, I would advocate sending one of the two branches into the Bronx as a next-best solution after that point.

[Caelestor]

Just interested, what are the two branches of SAS that should be built? The busiest corridors are 3rd/Webster and Fordham/Pelham, which in theory could be accommodated by extensions of the and/or .

[rbrome]

Here are the slides from today's MTA CC committee meeting:

 

https://goo.gl/photos/VYQU9YDe13TRM56n7

[LTA1992]

Just interested, what are the two branches of SAS that should be built? The busiest corridors are 3rd/Webster and Fordham/Pelham, which in theory could be accommodated by extensions of the and/or .

One up Third to Fordham Plaza, and then east to Co-Op City. The second splitting of at 163rd Street, pretty much following the original IND Second Phase South Bronx Line path to Throgs Neck. With the split happening in Manhattan, you're essentially taking one of those (SBL most likely) away. 

 

Well, that's a defeatist way to look at it. Personally, I would advocate sending one of the two branches into the Bronx as a next-best solution after that point.

No it isn't. If this was a four track line, then it would be completely possible to have all three branches. A two track line would reduce service too much on the outer extremities. Not to mention the which needs all the service it can get at it's most congested periods which includes weekends. There is then no room for growth in service on any of those routes at that point should any one of them require it. Because to add service to one, means cutting service to one or both of the remaining services.

 

This pretty much means than in another 50 years or so, we'll be right back here as the plans yet another East Side Line. This city, unless another flight to the suburbs occurs, will not get any less populated.

[bobtehpanda]

Just interested, what are the two branches of SAS that should be built? The busiest corridors are 3rd/Webster and Fordham/Pelham, which in theory could be accommodated by extensions of the and/or .

 

To put this very broadly, the East Bronx (roughly parallel to the ) and the general area around 3rd.

[P3F]

Just for my personal reference, I'd like to ask,

 

Are there any Bronx corridors that need service other than 3rd Avenue and the Southeastern Bronx?

 

I'm asking because, in the plan I'm making, both of those are served by lines other than the 2nd Avenue Line, yet the 2nd Avenue Line logically should still go somewhere in the Bronx.

Edited October 26, 2016 by P3F

[bobtehpanda]

Just for my personal reference, I'd like to ask,

 

Are there any Bronx corridors that need service other than 3rd Avenue and the Southeastern Bronx?

 

I'm asking because, in the plan I'm making, both of those are served by lines other than the 2nd Avenue Line, yet the 2nd Avenue Line logically should still go somewhere in the Bronx.

 

Not particularly. In general, this is a pretty good guideline of where transit demand is highest (pages 13-21)

[CenSin]

Not particularly. In general, this is a pretty good guideline of where transit demand is highest (pages 13-21)

Looking at some of the graphics, it would appear that 2 Avenue needs to be split into 3 lines: one serving the far west side of the Bronx, another serving the 3 Avenue corridor, and one more to Soundview and Coop City. They could obviously extend the to Coop City and simply create 2 branches for the Bronx instead giving 10 T.P.H. each to Harlem (125 Street), University Heights (Sedgwick Avenue), and Belmont (3 Avenue).

[Caelestor]

Not particularly. In general, this is a pretty good guideline of where transit demand is highest (pages 13-21)

 

Just based on the infographic on Page 19, SAS Phase 3 and a potential V train via SAS, 63 St, and Woodside look like high priority to me.

 

Looking at some of the graphics, it would appear that 2 Avenue needs to be split into 3 lines: one serving the far west side of the Bronx, another serving the 3 Avenue corridor, and one more to Soundview and Coop City. They could obviously extend the to Coop City and simply create 2 branches for the Bronx instead giving 10 T.P.H. each to Harlem (125 Street), University Heights (Sedgwick Avenue), and Belmont (3 Avenue).

 

I don't advocate SAS having 3 branches, since each branch would be a bit too underserved during the peak. In any case, I think it'd be easier to build a University Ave line as an extension of the from 155 St, with a UES connection via a 125 St line, rather than a branch of SAS.

[Trainmaster5]

Looking at some of the graphics, it would appear that 2 Avenue needs to be split into 3 lines: one serving the far west side of the Bronx, another serving the 3 Avenue corridor, and one more to Soundview and Coop City. They could obviously extend the to Coop City and simply create 2 branches for the Bronx instead giving 10 T.P.H. each to Harlem (125 Street), University Heights (Sedgwick Avenue), and Belmont (3 Avenue).

Thank you. Many posters are not old enough to realize that this edition of the SAS was conceived to replace both Second and Third Avenue EL services. Ideally the northern end of the line would never turn westward along 125th St at all. That turn and the proposed improvements to the Lex , , station and the Metro-North transfer were a result of a compromise to get the upstate board members on board with the financial plan. IMO the whole idea of a crosstown 125th St line is the height of idiocy and should never see the light of day before the SAS has 2 branches constructed in the Bronx. This 125th St plan was never on any "priority to do list" by the Board of Transportation or New York City Transit Authority wish list. It's been stated by long time residents of the city and many within NYCT that historically Central Harlem and Central Brooklyn ( Bed-Stuy ) had/have the most comprehensive bus/subway networks in the city. By what metric would anyone consider a crosstown line on a par with the Bronx' or South Queens' transit needs? Luckily for railfans I'm not in a position to vote yes or no on these respective proposals but , IMO , the Bronx extension(s), South Queens, and the Utica Avenue lines should be the only things on the agenda these days. There's something called the Surface Dept and a thing called the Metrocard to take a person across 125th St if necessary. It's cheaper than the alternative. If someone on my staff would push such an idea he/she would be out of a job. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[bobtehpanda]

Looking at some of the graphics, it would appear that 2 Avenue needs to be split into 3 lines: one serving the far west side of the Bronx, another serving the 3 Avenue corridor, and one more to Soundview and Coop City. They could obviously extend the to Coop City and simply create 2 branches for the Bronx instead giving 10 T.P.H. each to Harlem (125 Street), University Heights (Sedgwick Avenue), and Belmont (3 Avenue).

 

The West Side line is a bit misleading since that's advocating for an express bus lane on the Major Deegan. The original plan for that area was to tie the into the Jerome Avenue Line.

 

Pelham is too overcrowded; the kind of Second Avenue line that would be beneficial would follow the Amtrak ROW is more important than Sedgwick.

[Porter]

IMO the whole idea of a crosstown 125th St line is the height of idiocy

 

Pros:

- connecting twelve MTA lines and Metro North

- reducing street traffic on 125th Street

- alleviating crowding on the M60 buses

- only subterranean crosstown service north of Central Park

Cons:

- construction

- money

[Wallyhorse]

What would be the feasibility of doing one of the Bronx extensions via the ?  You can have the continue past Ditmars Boulevard to have one more stop in Queens (probably 20th Avenue) before going over a rail bridge to The Bronx (possibly broken into two with a stop on Rikers Island) with the first Bronx stop at Food Service drive and then taking the line perhaps to where it can meet up with the and in The Bronx.

[bobtehpanda]

What would be the feasibility of doing one of the Bronx extensions via the ?  You can have the continue past Ditmars Boulevard to have one more stop in Queens (probably 20th Avenue) before going over a rail bridge to The Bronx (possibly broken into two with a stop on Rikers Island) with the first Bronx stop at Food Service drive and then taking the line perhaps to where it can meet up with the and in The Bronx.

 

I would like to point out that this is not germane to the discussion at hand, but no, no one would take it, and there are logistical safety issues from running a train to Rikers via the city's power plants.

[CenSin]

Cons:

- construction

- money

You have just about described the cons of every project there is. What are the unique cons pertinent to this particular plan?

[LTA1992]

Thank you. Many posters are not old enough to realize that this edition of the SAS was conceived to replace both Second and Third Avenue EL services. Ideally the northern end of the line would never turn westward along 125th St at all. That turn and the proposed improvements to the Lex , , station and the Metro-North transfer were a result of a compromise to get the upstate board members on board with the financial plan. IMO the whole idea of a crosstown 125th St line is the height of idiocy and should never see the light of day before the SAS has 2 branches constructed in the Bronx. This 125th St plan was never on any "priority to do list" by the Board of Transportation or New York City Transit Authority wish list. It's been stated by long time residents of the city and many within NYCT that historically Central Harlem and Central Brooklyn ( Bed-Stuy ) had/have the most comprehensive bus/subway networks in the city. By what metric would anyone consider a crosstown line on a par with the Bronx' or South Queens' transit needs? Luckily for railfans I'm not in a position to vote yes or no on these respective proposals but , IMO , the Bronx extension(s), South Queens, and the Utica Avenue lines should be the only things on the agenda these days. There's something called the Surface Dept and a thing called the Metrocard to take a person across 125th St if necessary. It's cheaper than the alternative. If someone on my staff would push such an idea he/she would be out of a job. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

I like the way you think, sir. That 125th Street terminal has been my biggest gripe with the current version of the Second Avenue plan. And I find it despicable that the people in charge of creating this plan decided to go this way instead of getting the under river tunnel out of the way now and terminate the second phase at the more useful 149th Street terminal. Thus not only assuring The Bronx a second branch, but ensure maximum relief to the Easy Side with the lack of extra tracks on this link e.

 

And this was what I was trying to explain to Skipper before I got bored with the incoming circle of repetition. I would fire whoever was responsible and make sure those who replaced them never made such a mistake again. It's not only stunting further growth of The Bronx, but a crime to the people of this city.

 

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[LTA1992]

Pros:

- connecting twelve MTA lines and Metro North

- reducing street traffic on 125th Street

- alleviating crowding on the M60 buses

- only subterranean crosstown service north of Central Park

Cons:

- construction

- money

Why would anyone need to get from between the north-south lines along 125th Street? Do you actually use the system up there? If you needed to reach a certain line, you'd do it by bus before even getting that far.

 

When it comes to hose who need the MNRR, subway or not, it would probably be more lucrative to walk. One can reach Park Avenue from the ABCD 125 street station in 10 minutes at the right walking speed. Why risk missing my train when I could walk and be there by the time the Q or T comes?

 

Secondly, you're not gonna reduce street traffic in 125th. About two thirds of this city's population do not own cars. Mass transit is usually the way to get around. Whoever is in their cars on 125th will continue to be in their cars. Especially since that corridor leads straight to not only the Triboro, but the Willis and Third Avenue bridges and the FDR.

 

You're not gonna reduce much crowding on any of the buses serving 125th since most people on those buses are either going to/from The Bronx and Queens, or are shopping in the area. It's a waste of public funds to send the subway that way. Hi honestly. These subways in the Bronx have been needed for as long as there have been proposals for a second East Side line. Why deprive areas of transit when they have already been deprived of most other proper services outside of transit?

 

Sorry for the double post. I keep forgetting how to multi-quote on this app.

 

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Edited October 27, 2016 by LTA1992

[Porter]

You have just about described the cons of every project there is. What are the unique cons pertinent to this particular plan?

 

Whatever LTA1992 says, probably. I can't think of any on my own.

 

That 125th Street terminal has been my biggest gripe with the current version of the Second Avenue plan. And I find it despicable that the people in charge of creating this plan decided to go this way instead of getting the under river tunnel out of the way now and terminate the second phase at the more useful 149th Street terminal. Thus not only assuring The Bronx a second branch, but ensure maximum relief to the Easy Side with the lack of extra tracks on this link e.

 

Who on this forum disagrees with that? That wasn't a rhetorical question, by the way, I actually want to which member thinks that sending the to Lexington Avenue & 125th Street in Manhattan is a better idea than sending it to 3rd Avenue & 149th Street in the Bronx. It seems that only the feels this way because of (purportedly) Metro North appeasement.

 

Why would anyone need to get from between the north-south lines along 125th Street? Do you actually use the system up there? If you needed to reach a certain line, you'd do it by bus before even getting that far.

 

When it comes to hose who need the MNRR, subway or not, it would probably be more lucrative to walk. One can reach Park Avenue from the ABCD 125 street station in 10 minutes at the right walking speed. Why risk missing my train when I could walk and be there by the time the Q or T comes?

 

Secondly, you're not gonna reduce street traffic in 125th. About two thirds of this city's population do not own cars. Mass transit is usually the way to get around. Whoever is in their cars on 125th will continue to be in their cars. Especially since that corridor leads straight to not only the Triboro, but the Willis and Third Avenue bridges and the FDR.

 

You're not gonna reduce much crowding on any of the buses serving 125th since most people on those buses are either going to/from The Bronx and Queens, or are shopping in the area. It's a waste of public funds to send the subway that way. Hi honestly. These subways in the Bronx have been needed for as long as there have been proposals for a second East Side line. Why deprive areas of transit when they have already been deprived of most other proper services outside of transit?

 

If the acts against my wishes and terminates the at Lexington Avenue & 125th Street in Manhattan, where else is it supposed to go from there? Will we just call it a day and leave it that way indefinitely? I'm with you on the Bronx priority, but what if they don't bend on the plans?