Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Bracamonte]

That would mean that the line will finally live up to its purpose. I can imagine that will be so popular that people will demand an extension up north.

 

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[Wallyhorse]

Get it through your head there will never be a new el built.  ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON. NO ONE BUT YOU WANTS NEW ELS.

Most likely no, but if it becomes more cost efficient, you can't rule it out completely.

 

As said, if the cost is to do the last part as elevated for say $750 Million-$1 Billion as opposed to spending $6-8 Billion to do it underground, only the TRULY SELFISH would shoot down something that would be possibly one-eighth the cost.

[cl94]

There was a decent crowd on the train when I rode it this morning. The 3rd Avenue elevators are quite buggy, but overall, it was quite nice. That being said, the did seem less crowded than on a typical weekend day. The real test will be tomorrow, when we see how everything functions on a weekday.

[CenSin]

Most likely no, but if it becomes more cost efficient, you can't rule it out completely.

 

As said, if the cost is to do the last part as elevated for say $750 Million-$1 Billion as opposed to spending $6-8 Billion to do it underground, only the TRULY SELFISH would shoot down something that would be possibly one-eighth the cost.

But that’s exactly what will happen—they will build it underground for $6 billion or not build it at all. That is how pols roll now.

[Porter]

What station stood out the most to you guys? Just curious?

 

Is it okay to choose the Lexington Avenue–63rd Street Station? I've never seen a station renovated so dramatically (Cortlandt and South Ferry stations being new structures entirely). Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I'd say it was an entirely new station (mezzanine notwithstanding). It's almost completely unrecognizable, and I'd consider it an SAS station just the same as 72nd, 86th, and 96th streets.

 

I mean seriously, look at this crap:

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Skipper

[Around the Horn]

From the videos I've seen every train was full on opening day, so unlike Hudson Yards, there is already latent demand for the extension.

 

I expect the to be overcrowded in a few months' time. Maybe some more trains will have to run up to 96 St.  

 

I hate to burst your bubble, but every train to Hudson Yards on opening day was full too...

[R32 Fan]

The higher speed between the far apart new stations impresses people because the fact is that the NYC Subway is one of the slowest overall heavy rail systems there is. They say the top speed is 55, and that is the top speed specified for most of the rolling stock at least. If feels fast sometimes because of the proximity of the walls in the narrow tunnels. Some heavy rail can or does hit 70, and legend has it BART could go 80. Some straightaway commuter style metros average more than double the subway, and actually hold there top speeds more than briefly and rarely. 

 

As far as relieving crowding on the Lex line, it's not just a matter of taking away Bronx downtown commuting, it's about taking away from the mass that's added to Bronx commuters as it passes the UES. The relief for commuters to the UES from all points south is more intuitive, but it helps everyone. Come on guys! 86, 96, 77, and 68 Hunters College are all top 50 ridership stations! Including 86, which ranked 10 in 2015! So while this may be the shortest of any of the MTA  Second Avenue Line, it's the most independently crucial. Though there is a huge chunk of the LES and just the east side in general below midtown in need of N/S service, though the same could be said about the entire west side from Greenwich down to Battery Park City. 

 

I was surprised to see how low and for how long Hudson Yards ridership was, though I am looking for more recent figures, the official annual 2016 won't come out for a few months. I don't think this short SAS segment will suffer for ridership anything like 34/HY. 

 

The opening didn't seem as crazy as HY was, probably because it was so subdued by multiple factors from the soft opening to first (and unwrapped) train misinformation, to the fact that it wasn't the first station(s) in a quarter century. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

I hate to burst your bubble, but every train to Hudson Yards on opening day was full too...

With fanners or actual passengers?

 

When Cuomo and friends opened 96 St, there was a crap load of people there. And most fans were camping south of 57th St. I'd imagine the same for 86 and 72 more or less.

[Around the Horn]

With fanners or actual passengers?

 

When Cuomo and friends opened 96 St, there was a crap load of people there. And most fans were camping south of 57th St. I'd imagine the same for 86 and 72 more or less.

 

Actual passengers, presumably people going to Times Square who stayed on to check it out and then took another train back.

[R32 Fan]

For the 7, it was definitely a novelty of fanboys and foamers, because ridership was very disappointing within a month. It seems like it was only a week later when reports of sad numbers starting coming in, blame has been placed on everything from HY being still UC to the highline extension being closed. I would like to see some summer 2016 weekday average numbers. 

[Around the Horn]

For the 7, it was definitely a novelty of fanboys and foamers, because ridership was very disappointing within a month. It seems like it was only a week later when reports of sad numbers starting coming in, blame has been placed on everything from HY being still UC to the highline extension being closed. I would like to see some summer 2016 weekday average numbers. 

 

It's definitely gone up from when it opened. The opening of 10 Hudson Yards and the upper portion of the High Line have only helped matters.

I expect when 30, 35 and 55 Hudson Yards open, you'll really see ridership soar...

[RailRunRob]

Is it okay to choose the Lexington Avenue–63rd Street Station? I've never seen a station renovated so dramatically (Cortlandt and South Ferry stations being new structures entirely). Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I'd say it was an entirely new station (mezzanine notwithstanding). It's almost completely unrecognizable, and I'd consider it an SAS station just the same as 72nd, 86th, and 96th streets.

 

I mean seriously, look at this crap:

 

That was cutting edge in the 1970's and 1980's right there! Haha.. 63rd looks good the 3rd Ave side looks hella clean. 86th street is the standout station to me at least so far. I didn't go to street level at 72nd yet so I'll reserve full judgment until then.

[Union Tpke]

I was in 9038 the 11:08 from Brooklyn. I believe that was the second train in. We didn't know that, though. 

9108 was in the station when we pulled in at 96th maybe that was 1st in?

I was in that car. I had a red sweater and the Second Avenue Subway hat. Maybe I saw you. I was all the way in the front.

[Lance]

But that’s exactly what will happen—they will build it underground for $6 billion or not build it at all. That is how pols roll now.

That's also how most residents in the area will roll as well. In fact, that was the reaction even a century ago. When the Crosstown line was proposed by the BMT as an elevated line back in the '20s, residents balked at the prospect of having a brand new el in their backyards and vehemently opposed any construction. As we all know, the idea was shelved until the IND came about and proposed a subway. It would a decade after the BMT proposal that the Crosstown line saw service and was more expensive than the original el proposal. People will take poor service over a decrease in quality of life. There's a reason why there have not been any elevated lines built since 1920 or so. And no, the JFK AirTrain does not count as the people mover runs over the very loud and very busy Van Wyck Expressway. There's no one to disturb there.

[Wallyhorse]

But that’s exactly what will happen—they will build it underground for $6 billion or not build it at all. That is how pols roll now.

Now, maybe, but with immense pressure to get it done in the years ahead, they likely will do what they can to get it done, ideally underground of course.

 

Pols may also look at costs, and again, if it's one-eighth the cost to do it as elevated as opposed to underground, given the pressure to get it done and the relatively short stretch that actually would be elevated (5-6 blocks on 2nd Avenue and a few blocks to Lexington and Park Avenues on 125th Street for about five-eighths of a mile total with ONE elevated station), that is something that is seriously going to have to be looked at and I'm sure people who have common sense will realize the greater good, especially if the cost differentials are what I suspect they would be.

[Mtatransit]

Now, maybe, but with immense pressure to get it done in the years ahead, they likely will do what they can to get it done, ideally underground of course.

Pols may also look at costs, and again, if it's one-eighth the cost to do it as elevated as opposed to underground, given the pressure to get it done and the relatively short stretch that actually would be elevated (5-6 blocks on 2nd Avenue and a few blocks to Lexington and Park Avenues on 125th Street for about five-eighths of a mile total with ONE elevated station), that is something that is seriously going to have to be looked at and I'm sure people who have common sense will realize the greater good, especially if the cost differentials are what I suspect they would be.

The problem is pols don't care about transit. They care about their image. If the line is done while they are in office let's celebrate, but to start a line and cause a disruption to business, that is something very few pols are willing to take. Cuomo didn't start the project, the project finished while he is in office, hence the celebration.

[RailRunRob]

The higher speed between the far apart new stations impresses people because the fact is that the NYC Subway is one of the slowest overall heavy rail systems there is. They say the top speed is 55, and that is the top speed specified for most of the rolling stock at least. If feels fast sometimes because of the proximity of the walls in the narrow tunnels. Some heavy rail can or does hit 70, and legend has it BART could go 80. Some straightaway commuter style metros average more than double the subway, and actually hold there top speeds more than briefly and rarely. 

 

As far as relieving crowding on the Lex line, it's not just a matter of taking away Bronx downtown commuting, it's about taking away from the mass that's added to Bronx commuters as it passes the UES. The relief for commuters to the UES from all points south is more intuitive, but it helps everyone. Come on guys! 86, 96, 77, and 68 Hunters College are all top 50 ridership stations! Including 86, which ranked 10 in 2015! So while this may be the shortest of any of the MTA  Second Avenue Line, it's the most independently crucial. Though there is a huge chunk of the LES and just the east side in general below midtown in need of N/S service, though the same could be said about the entire west side from Greenwich down to Battery Park City. 

 

I was surprised to see how low and for how long Hudson Yards ridership was, though I am looking for more recent figures, the official annual 2016 won't come out for a few months. I don't think this short SAS segment will suffer for ridership anything like 34/HY. 

 

The opening didn't seem as crazy as HY was, probably because it was so subdued by multiple factors from the soft opening to first (and unwrapped) train misinformation, to the fact that it wasn't the first station(s) in a quarter century. 

I rode BART daily for 5 years. Different animals some for the reasons you spoke of there are a few spots with some space Dublin and BayPoint routes come to mind. BART is also higher voltage and wide gauge that also plays a factor higher performance hardware on the traction side. So the MTA might be among the slowest but where it lacks in speed it makes up in density and capacity. Also, the shortest line on the BART is about 35 Miles longer the by a few miles. Our Subway lines are short the CTA,SEPTA, and THE T are the only comparable systems. The BayPoint line on the BART is longer than an average Harlem Line train to Southeast at over 55 Miles in length. BART is more commuter than subway Crossrail, RER or the RTD here in the US is more the category. You could get a bit more speed out of our rolling stock. There limited and speed balanced by the CPU (SubwayGuy chime in ). There were trains that were optimized to pull 60MPH here in New York at onetime. Safety and .maintenance come to mind. Hudson Yards isn't, for now, it's what's coming 10,15,20 years down the road. We covered this it'll pull some people off the . I spoke to two people yesterday from the area one person worked on Park and 28th the other on Wall street. The guy on Park was open to using the to the the other was still getting on the Lex now just at 14th he was east of Broadway and didn't want to walk from Cortlandt. The and aren't going to see much relief this phase but I'm sure  where all happy to have it.   

The problem is pols don't care about transit. They care about their image. If the line is done while they are in office let's celebrate, but to start a line and cause a disruption to business, that is something very few pols are willing to take. Cuomo didn't start the project, the project finished while he is in office, hence the celebration.

Truer words have never been spoken!

I was in that car. I had a red sweater and the Second Avenue Subway hat. Maybe I saw you. I was all the way in the front.

I was at the end of the car where Charlie was standing Patagonia jacket. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by RailRunRob

[cl94]

BART in particular is glorified commuter rail. If you want to get around San Francisco, you take streetcars/light rail. The Washington Metro in the suburbs (where it gets any decent speed) also functions as commuter rail. Metro speeds in DC itself aren't much better than New York's, and a lot of that is simply because it's much newer and technology was better when constructed, so they could do deep bore tunnels with gentle curves. Remember that most of the New York system is significantly older than most other lines in the world excluding London and Paris.

[Far rockaway]

Are the second avenue subway wrapped r160's going to stay on the train permanently or was it just for opening day?

[cl94]

Are the second avenue subway wrapped r160's going to stay on the train permanently or was it just for opening day?

 

They'll probably be like the other ad wraps: temporary. I got a wrapped train on my ride up today (granted, it was full of foamers who wouldn't shut the hell up about how awesome the new line is...  ), but most of the sets on the aren't wrapped.

[R32 Fan]

Yes, seeing Cuomo so tall and proud of the new line was awkward, including in a news interview when he said how old all our infrastructure is, how we're standing on the shoulders of yesterday's labor, etc. with rhetoric about "the last time we built an airport", when it seems the state is usually being pointed at for funding and capital plan issues. Albany has it tough, being in between a huge glorious world city, and a stagnant but not completely insignificant rest of the state, with small and medium cities that are mostly mediocre at best, and have a laundry list of their own different problems than NYC. It is a bit sad how exorbitantly expensive these new stations are, the $4 bn oculus station, which is great but still, HY, SAS, apparently costing more per unit length or station than even Paris and London projects? It's one thing to compare to China, who is building subways 100 miles at a time, and lapping others on HSR, but when it costs even more than the other two giant, just as westernized cities of Paris and London, there may be a point. And when you have groups that are staunchly opposed to technology such as CBTC or automation of any kind regardless of proven effectiveness, it takes a little bit of credibility away. 

[Porter]

When you're unwilling to make sacrifices, things get done at a snail's pace, if at all. It's one of the shortcomings of democratically elected politicians; it's always about the constituents' diverse array of needs and wants (if they can even tell the difference).

[IAlam]

The higher speed between the far apart new stations impresses people because the fact is that the NYC Subway is one of the slowest overall heavy rail systems there is. They say the top speed is 55, and that is the top speed specified for most of the rolling stock at least. If feels fast sometimes because of the proximity of the walls in the narrow tunnels. Some heavy rail can or does hit 70, and legend has it BART could go 80. Some straightaway commuter style metros average more than double the subway, and actually hold there top speeds more than briefly and rarely. 

 

As far as relieving crowding on the Lex line, it's not just a matter of taking away Bronx downtown commuting, it's about taking away from the mass that's added to Bronx commuters as it passes the UES. The relief for commuters to the UES from all points south is more intuitive, but it helps everyone. Come on guys! 86, 96, 77, and 68 Hunters College are all top 50 ridership stations! Including 86, which ranked 10 in 2015! So while this may be the shortest of any of the MTA  Second Avenue Line, it's the most independently crucial. Though there is a huge chunk of the LES and just the east side in general below midtown in need of N/S service, though the same could be said about the entire west side from Greenwich down to Battery Park City. 

 

I was surprised to see how low and for how long Hudson Yards ridership was, though I am looking for more recent figures, the official annual 2016 won't come out for a few months. I don't think this short SAS segment will suffer for ridership anything like 34/HY. 

 

The opening didn't seem as crazy as HY was, probably because it was so subdued by multiple factors from the soft opening to first (and unwrapped) train misinformation, to the fact that it wasn't the first station(s) in a quarter century. 

Considering how backed up train get on lexington it's no surprise how people we're impressed. However the has it's own delay spots where the train can get delayed up to 10 minutes just not near Second Av

[cl94]

Considering how backed up train get on lexington it's no surprise how people we're impressed. However the has it's own delay spots where the train can get delayed up to 10 minutes just not near Second Av

 

Eh, delays on the are nothing compared to those experienced by its Atlantic Flatbush Avenue IRT companions in Brooklyn. I've waited at Rogers Junction for over 20 minutes at times.

 

Edit: oops, wrong street

Edited January 3, 2017 by cl94

[RailRunRob]

Eh, delays on the are nothing compared to those experienced by its Atlantic Avenue IRT companions in Brooklyn. I've waited at Rogers Junction for over 20 minutes at times.

I second that !