Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[RailRunRob]

Prior to the renovation, there was an absolutely massive cavern designed to house several banks of escalators. Now that only four elevators connect the station to Third Avenue, what will become of the remainder of that cavern? That's a ton of space!

Could you tell all of that from a side view? We sure it's not being used for ancillary systems? Electric, signaling, Pumping, emergency exit? Didn't they shrink the width of 72nd? Wouldn't that affect the overall cavern? Less room for the backend? (Shurgs) Maybe 63rd is picking up some of that slack? How much approximate square footage are we talking? How many fewer shafts were built I'm curious. I'd love to see the plans send a link if you can.  

Edited January 5, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Wallyhorse]

I think what people understood then and NOW is transportation has a profound impact on how neighborhoods are shaped.  For years, housing has been cheaper in Yorkville because of a lack of subway access and the distance to get to the line.  We will see a serious transformation of Yorkville as a result of this extension of the line.  They are already predicting rents to go up as much as $500.00 a month in some cases.

This I agree with 100%.

 

Coupled with many new high rises already in place and even more in the pipeline, rents have nowhere to go but UP.

 

All the new buildings is one of the reasons I was pushing the / split with the to 96th-2nd at all times as soon as the goes back to Metropolitan in 2018.  

A part of me understands where you're coming from. If you can't afford it let's look at something more in your price bracket. Thus your EL idea. Logic solution and move forward wise id look at an EL as well the get the best of both. But then comes the human elements the all or nothing that's the part that you're missing just looking at the convo. I'm reminded of my Grandparents I remember telling them I didn't want to eat some of the dishes they prepared heck I didn't like it. They'd always reply "If you don't like it then starve." Some nights I'd cave in some night's I left hungry. Moral of the story is I think you have to look at it with the same mentality here. You might win some and you might miss out. The better plan may or  may not appear that's the risk. If the money available can't allow for subway and they don't want an EL then there just going to have to do without transit. Can't be mad at the Community they don't want to go backward it's the will of the people. As long as they understand there going to have to go hungry. They like it I love it!

I don't know about that in this case.  You are dealing with many newer generations who may not necessarily think that way.  

 

That type of mentality is one Millenials in particular have not had to deal with and I suspect they might in the end be the ones who push for Phase 2 to be done no matter how it does.

[Porter]

Could you tell all of that from a side view? We sure it's not being used for ancillary systems? Electric, signaling, Pumping, emergency exit? Didn't they shrink the width of 72nd? Wouldn't that affect the overall cavern? Less room for the backend? (Shurgs) Maybe 63rd is picking up some of that slack? How much approximate square footage are we talking? How many fewer shafts were built I'm curious. I'd love to see the plans send a link if you can.  

 

Here's what I have:

 

http://ltvsquad.com/2015/11/04/abandoned-63rd-street-platform-mezzanine-circa-2004/

 

Check out those beautiful photographs from 2004, and you can see the magnitude of the space.

[Wallyhorse]

He's apparently talking about it connecting at 125th street.  There needs to be more focus on Crosstown connections because there are a lot of people backtracking to avoid dealing with traveling crosstown in Upper Manhattan, which can be a royal pain.  Hilly and/or crappy bus service.  125th has a ton of buses that can be useless, and getting from say Lex to the is no easy task.  

Which is exactly why Phase 2 should actually be extended all the way across 125 to make transfers to all the other lines that go there (plus a connection to the 8th Avenue Line to allow for G.O.'s and say special service to Yankee Stadium for example).

[RailRunRob]

Here's what I have:

 

http://ltvsquad.com/2015/11/04/abandoned-63rd-street-platform-mezzanine-circa-2004/

 

Check out those beautiful photographs from 2004, and you can see the magnitude of the space.

I got you. I'm just wondering how we know there's extra unused space in 2017 without a site plan? Just putting on the engineer's cap for a second.

[Porter]

I got you. I'm just wondering how we know there's extra unused space in 2017 without a site plan? Just putting on the engineer's cap for a second.

 

I'm not saying for sure that the space is unused, only that it's seemingly unused based on the side-view diagram. I was hoping that someone could provide more information on it.

[RailRunRob]

I'm not saying for sure that the space is unused, only that it's seemingly unused based on the side-view diagram. I was hoping that someone could provide more information on it.

Gotcha. I may have some old diagrams. A lot of what I have are from the 1960's and 1970's. I know I have the Broadway and Nassau lines in its entirety. I'll post it if I find something.

[Eric B]

Because it's 3 blocks. None of the other OOS transfers were that far. The Court Square transfer worked because the platform is directly above the platforms. Also, the current transfer isn't too pretty as it is- no easy way to work a passageway in there. With the new 3rd Avenue exit at Lex/63, it's a 3 block walk from any of the BMT exits to the .

I once heard that there was an electrical room connecting the two lines.

Still, it would be a long passage.

[CenSin]

Because it's 3 blocks. None of the other OOS transfers were that far. The Court Square transfer worked because the platform is directly above the platforms.

I would never use that connection for a transfer between the and the . Try it yourself and see. That passageway is 3.5 Manhattan street blocks. The entire complex is like a bent paper clip. The extreme ends of the complex are not connected to anything. That platform only has exits at the south end which is connected to the . What really needs to be done to complete the complex is to connect the northern end of the platforms to the platforms.

 

Also, the current transfer isn't too pretty as it is- no easy way to work a passageway in there. With the new 3rd Avenue exit at Lex/63, it's a 3 block walk from any of the BMT exits to the .

The transfer from the at 42 Street–Port Authority Bus Terminal is at least as long (if not longer) as a transfer from the at Lexington Avenue/63 Street.

 

 

Off-topic: Another connection that should probably be made is between 57 Street–7 Avenue and 7 Avenue. They’re less than 2 Manhattan street blocks apart and provide a better transfer between the Broadway and 8 Avenue lines. It’s also nice for those days when I’m getting on a random Queens Boulevard express to Manhattan and I need to transfer to the or . There would be a cross-platform transfer at Lexington Avenue/63 Street, an up-the-stairs transfer at 34 Street–Herald Square, and a down-the-short-passageway transfer at 7 Avenue. That doubles the number of options I can utilize along Queens Boulevard.

[CenSin]

(plus a connection to the 8th Avenue Line to allow for G.O.'s and say special service to Yankee Stadium for example).

And this special service would be fill what need? It’s 3 stops on the from 125 Street to 161 Street–Yankee Stadium. Under your plan, that service would take passengers through 6 stops going all the way across town and then back. What makes this so appealing and marketable to the hordes of people needing to get to/from the stadium?

[Lance]

Shh. You're bringing logic into a proposal that's completely illogical.

[Wallyhorse]

Shh. You're bringing logic into a proposal that's completely illogical.

LOL!!

 

I was just using the Yankee Stadium special as an example.  The real purpose of such a connection would be if work on the CPW portion of the 8th Avenue line necessitated the and to run via the SAS between 125/St. Nicholas and 47-50 on the and West 4 on the for example, plus for example allow for special rush hour service to either 207 in Manhattan or the Concourse.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This I agree with 100%.

 

Coupled with many new high rises already in place and even more in the pipeline, rents have nowhere to go but UP.

 

All the new buildings is one of the reasons I was pushing the / split with the to 96th-2nd at all times as soon as the goes back to Metropolitan in 2018.  

I don't know about that in this case.  You are dealing with many newer generations who may not necessarily think that way.  

 

That type of mentality is one Millenials in particular have not had to deal with and I suspect they might in the end be the ones who push for Phase 2 to be done no matter how it does.

Speaking of which, I think with all of these high rises going online in Yorkville/Upper East Side, that line may be more overburdened then I thought it would. 

The Bus lanes help a lot, I use the M60 on 125th st frequently.

Yeah and there's times when walking is much faster.  I think I've only used the bus a few times to and from Metro-North, otherwise it's faster to walk.

[rockdove]

 

Off-topic: Another connection that should probably be made is between 57 Street–7 Avenue and 7 Avenue. They’re less than 2 Manhattan street blocks apart and provide a better transfer between the Broadway and 8 Avenue lines.

 

I used to do that transfer by getting in/out at 55th st end of the 57th St station. Also for a time I used to exit 57-7 in decent weather to change to the 1 train at Columbus circle rather than transfer at Times Square.

 

Like others noted, coming from Astoria we have to change at 57th st 7th avenue to get to the second avenue. Slow, but physically easy. I wonder if it would be worth it walking between 3rd and 60th and 3rd and 63rd. Or maybe just take the . It's still the quickest if you walk briskly from the station.

[Juelz4309]

Made my way up 2 avenue las nite after work around 5 PM...Got on at 63/Lex and I cant beilve how diffrent it looks with that bright ass orange wall gone lol...the cross platform transfer makes it almost a new station in itself!. I ended catching a rush hour "N" and it was a somewhat slow ride but It was rush hour and I found out there was a investigation at Lex/59 sending ALL "N"s to 96...Nice additional reroute option for dispatch lol..I will say this though...All 3 of the stations look EXACTLY the same minus artwork here and there but those Mezzanines Were VERY Unnesecary...People already kno he drill...Either all the up front or all the way in the back to actually exit...There are no Mid station exits and it just seems that they couldve shaved easily 2 Billion and 3 years off the project if it wasnt for those mezzanines...Isnt Half the system full of closed off mezzanines anyway??? So minus the nit needed mezz it looks great...and the tail tracks North run Deep! To at least 106 it looks like...Not sure why the 2 phase costs more when u already have tunnels built as to just deadending at 96.

 

 

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[rockdove]

Maybe the Emergency rescue thing at the end of the stations requires the large mezzanines for staging area or faster egress. I hate to think there could be an attack here, but its right to be prepared.

 

At least they didn't decorate the stations with Advertising TV screens like Hudson Yards .

[Wallyhorse]

Speaking of which, I think with all of these high rises going online in Yorkville/Upper East Side, that line may be more overburdened then I thought it would. 

Yeah and there's times when walking is much faster.  I think I've only used the bus a few times to and from Metro-North, otherwise it's faster to walk.

Exactly.  As those new buildings come online over the next few years (those already under construction and those in the pipeline), you are going to see what is already the most densely populated area in possibly the entire country become even more dense.  The addition of 6th Avenue service in this case from an "Orange " starting in 2018 (supplementing the on weekdays and the main Broadway-Brooklyn via 6th Avenue line on weekends) to 96th/2nd to me would help a lot as the main purpose would be to provide additional service to Midtown West, but via 6th Avenue.

 

The real benefit of such an "Orange " to me would be weekends and late nights when it would double the service along the SAS with a combined 6TPH late nights and 12-15 TPH weekends.

[Caelestor]

I'm pretty certain the easier solution to any SAS crowding is to send more trains to 96 St and add more trains to and from Astoria. From what I've seen, the Broadway Line is more popular than the 6 Ave Line simply because of the stops it serves. 

[YankeesPwnMets]

Speaking of which, I think with all of these high rises going online in Yorkville/Upper East Side, that line may be more overburdened then I thought it would. 

I bet your ideal world solution is to bring the X90 back

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I bet your ideal world solution is to bring the X90 back

That actually isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't run it as frequently.  I mean there are obviously people there that can afford the service and can use it in Yorkville, and its destination has yet to be duplicated by any subway or bus line.  Nothing goes from Yorkville to WTC.

 

These days I split my time between Riverdale and Manhattan, and I would certainly use it to get to my office when I stay in the city as I hate riding the subway.  What I do now is take a cab so far or take Metro-North or sometimes opt for an express bus.  If timed right, either set up is still faster than the subway once you factor in walking, etc.  The has been just okay since the start of SAS.  Yesterday was atrocious.  I took it from the apartment to the office and trains were clearly delayed and packed.  It was so crowded that I got off earlier than planned and just walked the rest of the way.  Going to the Upper West Side, it took me an hour to get there between the subway and the M86 bus.  Trains were again delayed heading Uptown while numerous trains came on the opposite side.  The was running every 2 - 5 minutes but was packed because of all of the riders waiting, so I waited a bit before I could actually get on a train.  This morning the was fine.  I must've caught one that started at 138th street in the Bronx because it was basically empty when I got on.  There were still seats when we reached 77th street.

 

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What's been the story with the SAS anyway?  A colleague of mine lives in Yorkville and says that the trains have been packed, but I have yet to use it. I considered using it the other day to get to the office but decided against it.  

Edited January 5, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[RailRunRob]

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What's been the story with the SAS anyway? A colleague of mine lives in Yorkville and says that the trains have been packed, but I have yet to use it. I considered using it the other day to get to the office but decided against it.

 

I've passed through two days this week one for a meeting on 86th and the other to meet my wife after work on 66th and 2nd. 72nd street Station seems like it's getting way more traffic then 96 th or 86th. Both days the trains where packed S/B around 5-6 pm is there a hospital, institution or something in the area?

 

 

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[Union Tpke]

What do you guys predict that the ranks of the stations will be for 2017? This is just something to look back at in April 2018.

It is out of 425 since transfer stations are counted together.

[cl94]

They built elevators instead of escalators at the 3rd Avenue end because it ended up being cheaper while allowing that side to be ADA. 

 

As for Court Square, Citicorp built the IND transfer as part of Citicorp Center construction.The IRT portion wasn't much more than building an escalator/elevator.

 

 

I've passed through two days this week one for a meeting on 86th and the other to meet my wife after work on 66th and 2nd. 72nd street Station seems like it's getting way more traffic then 96 th or 86th. Both days the trains where packed S/B around 5-6 pm is there a hospital, institution or something in the area?


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Yes. New York-Presbyterian has a complex at York and 69th. Also a couple colleges in the area.

[Trainmaster5]

And this special service would be fill what need? It’s 3 stops on the from 125 Street to 161 Street–Yankee Stadium. Under your plan, that service would take passengers through 6 stops going all the way across town and then back. What makes this so appealing and marketable to the hordes of people needing to get to/from the stadium?

C'mon CenSin you're trying to use logic here and that's unfair. There's also the fact that 125th Street is a known earthquake fault line which is why the Metropolitan Railway/IRT only went east-west at the north end of Central Park and way up at 155th St. Private enterprise wasn't stupid when it came to risking their own money. Of course with all the technological advances we've acquired over the years why not tempt Mother Nature ? What's there to lose ? We really showed them at New South Ferry didn't we ? Seriously though I still hold that the SAS should be built as a North-South line from the Bronx down to Lower Manhattan with a connection eastward to Queens.  BTW for those traveling from west to east or vice versa what are all those lines on the bus map representing in that section from Broadway eastward from 116th St north to 145th St.? Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[IAlam]

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What's been the story with the SAS anyway?  A colleague of mine lives in Yorkville and says that the trains have been packed, but I have yet to use it. I considered using it the other day to get to the office but decided against it.  

Compared to when it went to Queens during the morning and evening rush its not as packed as the that came from Queens. However during the other times of the day they pull up more passengers than the did when it went to Queens.