Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Excellent. That’s the alternative I prefer too, especially if Phase 2 is indeed going to come close to the $6 billion figure that’s been mentioned on here multiple times. Though there would be multiple steps and studies required just to get to the day ground is broken on Phase 2 if they decided to send it into The Bronx.

[Porter]

1 hour ago, Porter said:

I modified Jake Berman's map to show my preferred Phase 2:

The link broke...

[Wallyhorse]

Excellent:

And from 149th/3rd I would recapture the old Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue EL (either as EL or subway), consolidating many of the old stops between there and Gun Hill Road as not as many stops would be needed with the stations much longer than their original counterparts.

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, Porter said:

The link broke...

 

Nice map skills!

[Cabanamaner]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Excellent:

And from 149th/3rd I would recapture the old Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue EL (either as EL or subway), consolidating many of the old stops between there and Gun Hill Road as not as many stops would be needed with the stations much longer than their original counterparts.

My thoughts exactly. I've detested Phase 2 ever since discovering that it wouldn't send the SAS to The Bronx. If the goal is to alleviate crowding on the , then having the SAS go to at least 3rd Ave-149th Street is a must. The actually Phase 2 plan seems to needless complicated, with a sharp curve onto 125th and having to be incredible deep underground in order to avoid disturbing both the IRT Station and the Metro-North Station. Granted, building a new tunnel in between Manhattan and The Bronx ain't cheap. 

[LGA Link N Train]

5 hours ago, Porter said:

The link broke...

I proposed this a few pages back in this thread. Still a better use of $6B. Nice map by the way.

[Wallyhorse]

The one flaw I see on the map is the lack of a 125th Street station, which even on 2nd Avenue to me would be necessary for going to the Bronx to work.  

[Porter]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

The one flaw I see on the map is the lack of a 125th Street station, which even on 2nd Avenue to me would be necessary for going to the Bronx to work.  

Another line would curve over to 125th & Lexington anyway; the Bronx line needs to deep-dive early to get under the water, and the fewer stations the cheaper.

For those of you interested in a PDF version of the whole map: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pk2y2wi8npd737k/MTA_map_20XX.pdf?dl=0

[R68OnBroadway]

For 6 billion in another US city we could get to Claremont, and in a normal country we could get to Fordham Plaza. Unfortunately I don't see any reduction in costs unless Molinaro is elected, which has a rather low chance of happening, and even with that I wouldn't expect more than a 5-10% decrease in costs at best because of politics.

 

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:17 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

For 6 billion in another US city we could get to Claremont, and in a normal country we could get to Fordham Plaza. Unfortunately I don't see any reduction in costs unless Molinaro is elected, which has a rather low chance of happening, and even with that I wouldn't expect more than a 5-10% decrease in costs at best because of politics.

Yup, sadly I don't see this project staying within or meeting budget under Cuomo's godforsaken reign; I feel that other factors like potential economic struggles (say for instance) will play a larger role than politics since it seems to have been rather unaffecting during phase 1 IIRC, compared to other projects like Fulton St.. About the 6 billion dollar point  you brought up however, it is extreme, but expected since you have to realize this city is one of the most expensive to build in, costs will always be higher than perceived since New York isn't cheap. A far bigger concern for me is the amount of benefits we'll receive by the time the it opens (a long time away). With the growth of our system already steadily rising, it might barely make a difference in the issue of crowds and what not by then.  

[LTA1992]

On 9/27/2018 at 7:32 PM, Porter said:

Another line would curve over to 125th & Lexington anyway; the Bronx line needs to deep-dive early to get under the water, and the fewer stations the cheaper.

For those of you interested in a PDF version of the whole map: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pk2y2wi8npd737k/MTA_map_20XX.pdf?dl=0

Not if you use the immersed tunnel method. The Harlem River isn't THAT deep. Just seep enough for barges. 

[Porter]

9 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Not if you use the immersed tunnel method. The Harlem River isn't THAT deep. Just seep enough for barges. 

I've never actually been to the Harlem River, but now that I see photographs, I realize just how incredibly narrow it is. A tunnel under it really shouldn't be that big of a deal indeed. In fact, I'd say it would be easier and cheaper than curving from 116th to 125th under all those buildings.

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, Porter said:

I've never actually been to the Harlem River, but now that I see photographs, I realize just how incredibly narrow it is. A tunnel under it really shouldn't be that big of a deal indeed. In fact, I'd say it would be easier and cheaper than curving from 116th to 125th under all those buildings.

That definitely could work.  Politically might be the biggest hurdle to moving the line there,

Also ask this because I had previously suggested having a branch of the line head towards Randalls Island, LGA and potentially Willets Point and later JFK from the SAS with a stop at 124th from 2nd to 1st Avenue before heading that way.

[Porter]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Politically might be the biggest hurdle to moving the line there,

I never understood what politicians had against the Bronx.

[shiznit1987]

I agree with the consensus that the SAS needs to be extended to the Bronx, but instead of running down 3rd Ave I'd just shoot it straight up Webster. Run both the N/Q up there with the W taking over the Astoria Line. N/Q can even form a skip-stop pattern peak direction:

-Gun Hill Rd

-Mosholu Pkwy

-Fordham Road

-E 183st

-Tremont Ave

-Claremont Pkwy

-E 168/167sts

-E 161st

-3rd Ave/149st

-3rd Ave/138st

-125st

-116st

-106st

-96st

-86st

-72st

Both trains make all stops from there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R68OnBroadway]

46 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

I agree with the consensus that the SAS needs to be extended to the Bronx, but instead of running down 3rd Ave I'd just shoot it straight up Webster. Run both the N/Q up there with the W taking over the Astoria Line. N/Q can even form a skip-stop pattern peak direction:

-Gun Hill Rd

-Mosholu Pkwy

-Fordham Road

-E 183st

-Tremont Ave

-Claremont Pkwy

-E 168/167sts

-E 161st

-3rd Ave/149st

-3rd Ave/138st

-125st

-116st

-106st

-96st

-86st

-72st

Both trains make all stops from there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

86th should serve all lines, but I don't think skip-stop is a good thing to pursue... I'd rather have service on SAS this way:

 Fordham Plaza-CI via 3rd, 2nd, Broadway, Bridge, 4th and Sea Beach

 125th St-Broadway- CI via 125th, 2nd, Broadway, Bridge and Brighton

 Little Neck Pkwy-Glen Oaks-Chambers St via Union Turnpike Express (  would go to Astoria and the  could take the local), bypass, 63rd or a new tunnel at 68th, 2nd local (23rd, 34th and a new stop at 9th would be local) and Nassau (however only past Bowery).

 72nd lower (a new lower level would be built so all services can be de-interlined)-Tottenville via 2nd express, a new tunnel to Tompkinsville, and SIR.

[RailRunRob]

On 10/3/2018 at 1:27 AM, Porter said:

I never understood what politicians had against the Bronx.

It's crazy the Bronx is the next money maker why the  isnt going this way is just beyond me. Can't believe they allow these developers to exploit the system the way they do.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/the-south-bronx-is-in-the-midst-of-a-development-boom/

 

[RR503]

11 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

It's crazy the Bronx is the next money maker why the  isnt going this way is just beyond me. Can't believe they allow these developers to exploit the system the way they do.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/the-south-bronx-is-in-the-midst-of-a-development-boom/

Preach.

Though there are some at least palliative ways to increase Manhattan-Bronx capacity with today's infrastructure.

- unf**king the crowding/dwell time/cautious operation vicious cycle on the Lex (+4-6tph on the )

- doing something about Rogers (+8-12 tph on the )

If you're willing to change service patterns, you could deinterline 149 and increase capacity about 12tph on top of the above by doing so, but that'll fly as well as a cinder block...

Point being, in the >5 year timespan, SAS needs to go north. 

[RailRunRob]

18 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Preach.

Though there are some at least palliative ways to increase Manhattan-Bronx capacity with today's infrastructure.

- unf**king the crowding/dwell time/cautious operation vicious cycle on the Lex (+4-6tph on the )

- doing something about Rogers (+8-12 tph on the )

If you're willing to change service patterns, you could deinterline 149 and increase capacity about 12tph on top of the above by doing so, but that'll fly as well as a cinder block...

Point being, in the >5 year timespan, SAS needs to go north. 

3

They're going to deinterline there no Choice in the matter Andy spoke on this in Brooklyn verbatim  even in comparison to London of the lines are for most self-contained. He directly said there looking into Optimizing routes.  

SAS to 149th just makes more sense considering the boom that's coming that way in the next 10 -15 years. The only thing they'd be missing is the Metro-North connection your hit all the other lines and Spreading the load over a few stations.. I guess the connection to the  would-be missing as well umm.

Edited October 22, 2018 by RailRunRob

[RR503]

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

They're going to deinterline there no Choice in the matter Andy spoke on this in Brooklyn verbatim  even in comparison to London of the lines are for most self-contained. He directly said there looking into Optimizing routes.  

Do elaborate. There's endless scuttlebutt going around HQ about this, but there is a good amount of confusion about just how radical the changes they're considering could be. I'd be very interested to hear exactly what he said. 

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Do elaborate. There's endless scuttlebutt going around HQ about this, but there is a good amount of confusion about just how radical the changes they're considering could be. I'd be very interested to hear exactly what he said. 

So basically a few questions came up about delays and Rogers came up as well. There were afew MTA workers in attendance. He broke down interconnectivity of the lines in NYC merging and the issues there ect. Then briefly talked about London and how most lines are fully self contained and that issues rarely spill over to other lines. Then he talked about optimizing and possibly adjusting routes to maximize efficiency. And with that added that some riders may have too Add a cross platform switch to there trip. But stated it’d be worth it for the added efficiency in service. I took it as direct 7th and Lex optimizations with Brooklyn in mind being the question was directed service here.

Edited October 22, 2018 by RailRunRob

[RailRunRob]

@RR503  1:24 in he speaks briefly on it this is was the 1st time it came up. Then we spoke about it on the way out again in as well in a little more detail with Rogers added but the same message.

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Wallyhorse]

13 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

It's crazy the Bronx is the next money maker why the  isnt going this way is just beyond me. Can't believe they allow these developers to exploit the system the way they do.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/the-south-bronx-is-in-the-midst-of-a-development-boom/

And why I agree with changing Phase 2 to the Bronx with plans for an extenstion that replaces the long-gone Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue EL (Either as EL or Subway, if an EL with provisions to also go to a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL as I do think eventually with all the building in midtown you will need BOTH a full SAS AND fully-rebuilt a 3rd Avenue EL or subway to handle that).

If you do 125th, in my view you do it to Broadway so there are transfers to every other line on 125 and also with provisions at St. Nicholas Avenue to have it eventually have a connection to the Concourse Line. 

[RailRunRob]

4 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

And why I agree with changing Phase 2 to the Bronx with plans for an extenstion that replaces the long-gone Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue EL (Either as EL or Subway, if an EL with provisions to also go to a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL as I do think eventually with all the building in midtown you will need BOTH a full SAS AND fully-rebuilt a 3rd Avenue EL or subway to handle that).

This is doable now. A reroute to149th shouldn't be that much extra in cost tunnel wise..  The MTA needs to start taking private investment. The Developers of Mott Haven should at least be pitching in for Stations. It would be in their best interest for access and value for the land and properties there developing. 

 

10 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

If you do 125th, in my view you do it to Broadway so there are transfers to every other line on 125 and also with provisions at St. Nicholas Avenue to have it eventually have a connection to the Concourse Line. 

That side of town has transit bandwidth already why would you add extra weight to an area without creating extra arteries to alleviate pressure. 

[Wallyhorse]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

This is doable now. A reroute to149th shouldn't be that much extra in cost tunnel wise..  The MTA needs to start taking private investment. The Developers of Mott Haven should at least be pitching in for Stations. It would be in their best interest for access and value for the land and properties there developing. 

That side of town has transit bandwidth already why would you add extra weight to an area without creating extra arteries to alleviate pressure. 

One reason I do the 125 extension: Columbia University, which already has done some serious expansion.