Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Bay Ridge Express]

Hopefully, with the help of COVID aid/additional funding under this new federal administration the projects can actually be completed this time.

6 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/n-y-governor-outlines-306b-infrastructure-plan/

 

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Hopefully, with the help of COVID aid/additional funding under this new federal administration the projects can actually be completed this time.

 

Assuming the MTA doesn't come out of the woodwork and tell us SAS Phase II now costs $10B.

[NewFlyer 230]

51 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Assuming the MTA doesn't come out of the woodwork and tell us SAS Phase II now costs $10B.

Lol, they better not. Most people don’t care if the station is all big and fancy as long as it can get them to point A to B. They already have parts of the tunnel constructed they just need to work with that if possible.

[Mtatransit]

Second Avenue subway Phase II is already PROJECTED to cost 6.9 Billion. Knowing MTA's projection it'll probably cost 15 Billion by the time its completed.

We already broke world record for the most expensive tunneling in the world. Won't hurt to try for the record again.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Mtatransit

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

Second Avenue subway Phase II is already PROJECTED to cost 6.9 Billion. Knowing MTA's projection it'll probably cost 15 Billion by the time its completed.

We already broke world record for the most expensive tunneling in the world. Won't hurt to try for the record again.

Exactly.  Sad, but definitely true.

[Storm]

When phase 2 of the second avenue subway commences, the  better have its R211's or R160's. Phase 2 almost costs more than the base order of the R211 itself. 

[darkstar8983]

11 minutes ago, Stormxx said:

When phase 2 of the second avenue subway commences, the  better have its R211's or R160's. Phase 2 almost costs more than the base order of the R211 itself. 

Oh it will. Any leftover R68s/R68A cars that remain will likely run on whatever line services Astoria, since all Central Park West trains have to have CBTC compatible cars for 8 Av CBTC and potential reroutes, unless an R68/R68A replacement order is put in by then. The 125 St extension would not be able to be handled by just the  at its current headways and at a pre-pandemic ridership.
 

in terms of reroutes it’s a good thing that the second Avenue phase 1 was completed before Queens Blvd CBTC, since 96 St-2 Av can be used as a funneling terminal for any rerouted trains, since it would be too much of a hassle to run a non CBTC train thru CBTC territory at a moments notice. (Can someone please check this last statement for accuracy please)

Edited January 20, 2021 by darkstar8983

[Storm]

Which brings me to the . The r68's on the  and  are a complete disaster. They deserve r211's or r160's as well. The BMT broadway line should be completely NTT.

[Storm]

When the  comes out, Ive heard it will serve a lot more riders.

The  should be r211 while the  should get some of the r160's back from Jamaica

(and yes the  are my favorite lines and they dont deserve the r68's.

[Storm]

cause the  also have r46's so they are going to get a part of the NTT's

[Mysterious2train]

2 hours ago, Stormxx said:

When phase 2 of the second avenue subway commences, the  better have its R211's or R160's. Phase 2 almost costs more than the base order of the R211 itself. 

Don't worry, even if Uncle Joe and Congress actually do provide some Fedbux soon to fund phase 2, it wouldn't open until the end of this decade at the absolute earliest - more likely into the next decade. If the R46s are still around by then, the MTA will have much bigger problems to deal with.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Mysterious2train

[Storm]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious2train said:

Don't worry, even if Uncle Joe and Congress actually do provide some Fedbux soon to fund phase 2, it wouldn't open until the end of this decade at the absolute earliest - more likely into the next decade. If the R46s are still around by then, the MTA will have much bigger problems to deal with.

The R211's will be on the  line. When the  comes out, It'll be in the 2030s.

I dont know why the  are being so lazy, while there are only 3 stops: 106th st, 116th st, and 125th st.

GET A MOVE ON!!!

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Stormxx said:

The R211's will be on the  line. When the  comes out, It'll be in the 2030s.

I dont know why the  are being so lazy, while there are only 3 stops: 106th st, 116th st, and 125th st.

GET A MOVE ON!!!

You see the thing is, there are a handful of factors that you need to take into consideration 

1. Politics - there are a handful of political factors behind this. Also, given there there are regulations (such as the Environmental Studies and whatnot) that dictate how the line can be constructed, which also inflates the cost of the project. To add insult to the injury, Governor Cuomo would like for the stations to be fancy and have full mezzanines. 

2. Given that you seem to be new here, allow me to surprise you with the fact that the  is more of a business and real estate corporation who just so happen to manage and operate the Subway, Bus and Commuter Rail network. I’m pretty sure that others here on the forums can elaborate on this point that I just made, so let that sink in.

3. Contractors - The  has a history of (how do I put this?) ...hiring contractors who aren’t the most reliable. Can’t name any off the top. Of my head but if you need any examples of what I mean, look at 23rd Street on the  and . The amount of time it took (or is taking) to build SAS, the  extension and East Side Access.

Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should’ve given us all 4 Phases of SAS with a 4 track section between 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations, potential branches from 23rd Street (for alphabet City) and to the Bronx and a cross platform transfer from Grand Street. But alas, I’m only describing a fantasy here.

And one last note, I notice that you seem to be repeating a bias that you have as to which equipment should go where. That bias in question being that the  and  should get the 160’s back from Jamaica once the 211’s arrive. On behalf of everyone here, we understood you the first time, no need to repeat your statement 7-10 times. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by LaGuardia Link N Tra
Typo

[Storm]

oh and... the  and  should get some r211's. They should get at least a part of the order. Also, to elaborate on YOUR point, the  and  are my favorite lines, (if you havent noticed that by now I dont know what to say), and the lines (in my opinion) should get at least some NTT's. They shouldve waited until the r211 order came to put CBTC on the . 

Lets not get into an argument here.

And you are right, ill stop talking about the  and . Ill start talking about the  more.

and one last note, you spelled new wrong : D.

[Storm]

9 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

You see the thing is, there are a handful of factors that you need to take into consideration 

1. Politics - there are a handful of political factors behind this. Also, given there there are regulations (such as the Environmental Studies and whatnot) that dictate how the line can be constructed, which also inflates the cost of the project. To add insult to the injury, Governor Cuomo would like for the stations to be fancy and have full mezzanines. 

2. Given that you seem to be knew here, allow me to surprise you with the fact that the  is more of a business and real estate corporation who just so happen to manage and operate the Subway, Bus and Commuter Rail network. I’m pretty sure that others here on the forums can elaborate on this point that I just made, so let that sink in.

3. Contractors - The  has a history of (how do I put this?) ...hiring contractors who aren’t the most reliable. Can’t name any off the top. Of my head but if you need any examples of what I mean, look at 23rd Street on the  and . The amount of time it took (or is taking) to build SAS, the  extension and East Side Access.

Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should’ve given us all 4 Phases of SAS with a 4 track section between 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations, potential branches from 23rd Street (for alphabet City) and to the Bronx and a cross platform transfer from Grand Street. But alas, I’m only describing a fantasy here.

And one last note, I notice that you seem to be repeating a bias that you have as to which equipment should go where. That bias in question being that the  and  should get the 160’s back from Jamaica once the 211’s arrive. On behalf of everyone here, we understood you the first time, no need to repeat your statement 7-10 times. 

I take that into account

[Storm]

I have an additional reason why the  is taking so long.

Covid.

The  is going through a huge catastrophe. They have lost a lot of daily ridership, and Kawasaki, and a lot of other businesses that helped the  shut down temporarily. 

I understand why the  could take so long, lets not rush them.

If you're wondering this is where I got the idea that the  is lazy,

 

[Storm]

23 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

You see the thing is, there are a handful of factors that you need to take into consideration 

1. Politics - there are a handful of political factors behind this. Also, given there there are regulations (such as the Environmental Studies and whatnot) that dictate how the line can be constructed, which also inflates the cost of the project. To add insult to the injury, Governor Cuomo would like for the stations to be fancy and have full mezzanines. 

2. Given that you seem to be new here, allow me to surprise you with the fact that the  is more of a business and real estate corporation who just so happen to manage and operate the Subway, Bus and Commuter Rail network. I’m pretty sure that others here on the forums can elaborate on this point that I just made, so let that sink in.

3. Contractors - The  has a history of (how do I put this?) ...hiring contractors who aren’t the most reliable. Can’t name any off the top. Of my head but if you need any examples of what I mean, look at 23rd Street on the  and . The amount of time it took (or is taking) to build SAS, the  extension and East Side Access.

Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should’ve given us all 4 Phases of SAS with a 4 track section between 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations, potential branches from 23rd Street (for alphabet City) and to the Bronx and a cross platform transfer from Grand Street. But alas, I’m only describing a fantasy here.

And one last note, I notice that you seem to be repeating a bias that you have as to which equipment should go where. That bias in question being that the  and  should get the 160’s back from Jamaica once the 211’s arrive. On behalf of everyone here, we understood you the first time, no need to repeat your statement 7-10 times. 

i reacted

[Storm]

@LaGuardia Link N Tra thanks for making me realize in the real world not everything takes 2 seconds

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, Stormxx said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra thanks for making me realize in the real world not everything takes 2 seconds

No problem

[Storm]

 

32 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

You see the thing is, there are a handful of factors that you need to take into consideration 

1. Politics - there are a handful of political factors behind this. Also, given there there are regulations (such as the Environmental Studies and whatnot) that dictate how the line can be constructed, which also inflates the cost of the project. To add insult to the injury, Governor Cuomo would like for the stations to be fancy and have full mezzanines. 

2. Given that you seem to be new here, allow me to surprise you with the fact that the  is more of a business and real estate corporation who just so happen to manage and operate the Subway, Bus and Commuter Rail network. I’m pretty sure that others here on the forums can elaborate on this point that I just made, so let that sink in.

3. Contractors - The  has a history of (how do I put this?) ...hiring contractors who aren’t the most reliable. Can’t name any off the top. Of my head but if you need any examples of what I mean, look at 23rd Street on the  and . The amount of time it took (or is taking) to build SAS, the  extension and East Side Access.

Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should’ve given us all 4 Phases of SAS with a 4 track section between 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations, potential branches from 23rd Street (for alphabet City) and to the Bronx and a cross platform transfer from Grand Street. But alas, I’m only describing a fantasy here.

And one last note, I notice that you seem to be repeating a bias that you have as to which equipment should go where. That bias in question being that the  and  should get the 160’s back from Jamaica once the 211’s arrive. On behalf of everyone here, we understood you the first time, no need to repeat your statement 7-10 times. 

If phase 2 costs $4.5 bill for just 3 stations, who knows how much it'll cost for a brand new  train??

[Brighton Express]

2 hours ago, Stormxx said:

 

If phase 2 costs $4.5 bill for just 3 stations, who knows how much it'll cost for a brand new  train??

 

That's why you want to do something like this in phases. Use the money you have to at least alleviate some of the overcrowding while you work on obtaining more of it. Someone above said the 2030s is when we'd start seeing the , and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the late 2030s.

With that being said, I'd anticipate a small rise in the fares to help shorten this timeline, and as more and more systems are being built, this makes the research / development and construction costs a little cheaper (not that much, but anything helps). Definitely helps to have the people on your side as well, if you can prove to them the additional line has a greater overall benefit to the system as a whole, this could help tremendously with funding. Wouldn't really bet on that option though.

[R10 2952]

11 minutes ago, Brighton Express said:

That's why you want to do something like this in phases. Use the money you have to at least alleviate some of the overcrowding while you work on obtaining more of it. Someone above said the 2030s is when we'd start seeing the , and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the late 2030s.

With that being said, I'd anticipate a small rise in the fares to help shorten this timeline, and as more and more systems are being built, this makes the research / development and construction costs a little cheaper (not that much, but anything helps). Definitely helps to have the people on your side as well, if you can prove to them the additional line has a greater overall benefit to the system as a whole, this could help tremendously with funding. Wouldn't really bet on that option though.

Welcome back, man- it's been a minute.

[Brighton Express]

5 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Welcome back, man- it's been a minute.

Thanks man, great to be back!

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, Brighton Express said:

 

That's why you want to do something like this in phases. Use the money you have to at least alleviate some of the overcrowding while you work on obtaining more of it. Someone above said the 2030s is when we'd start seeing the , and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the late 2030s.

With that being said, I'd anticipate a small rise in the fares to help shorten this timeline, and as more and more systems are being built, this makes the research / development and construction costs a little cheaper (not that much, but anything helps). Definitely helps to have the people on your side as well, if you can prove to them the additional line has a greater overall benefit to the system as a whole, this could help tremendously with funding. Wouldn't really bet on that option though.

Phase 2 plus a short extension into The Bronx stopping at 138th-3rd Ave and 149th-3rd could make a serious dent in the overcrowding that the  and  lines regularly experienced pre-Covid, and will likely experience again once ridership returns to pre-Covid levels (which eventually it will).

Edited January 21, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R10 2952]

I wonder if the funding delays, especially those brought on by the whole coronavirus situation, will cause the MTA to rethink their approach to Phase 2.  The 125th spur to Lexington for the MNRR connection is an unnecessary sideshow in my opinion.  Priority number one for them should be 96th-116th and the tunnel under the Harlem River to the Bronx. 

That and looking at ways to bring the costs down for the stations along the existing cut-and-cover sections.  Logic would dictate the easiest solution would be to build those with pocket entrances/exits instead of Horodniceanu's cavernous full-length mezzanines, but I'm sure Capital Construction will find a way to make it more complicated and expensive than it needs to be. 

The realist in me also says that the suburban members of the Board will fight tooth-and-nail for the MNRR thing, unless a truly successful argument could be made against them that limited resources necessitate dropping the 125th tunnel in favor of the Bronx tunnel.

Edited January 25, 2021 by R10 2952