Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

I have a feeling that building Phase 3 first will prevent DeKalb from exploding when the goes to what, 19 TPH. However, it would be an inconvenience to those in East Harlem, especially since it shouldn't actually be that hard to get it to 116th St.

 

It's not. Still, it'll cost the same amount, since the cost of tunneling is not a particularly high component of project cost anyways.

[Bracamonte]

Won't Phase 3 take much longer to build due to the fact that it has to go under and above subway tunnels, road tunnels, and railroad tunnels?

[bobtehpanda]

Won't Phase 3 take much longer to build due to the fact that it has to go under and above subway tunnels, road tunnels, and railroad tunnels?

 

I'm not completely sure, but I'm pretty sure that tunnels and station are built concurrently, and that tunnels finish first. Unless you have to freeze the ground, building tunnels is not too difficult.

[trainfanrod]

Im trying to figure out how it will meet up with grand central its far walk from 2nd

[Fresh Pond]

Im trying to figure out how it will meet up with grand central its far walk from 2nd

Most likely via the platform...there's an entrance to 3rd Av

[R3238 RFW]

Delete

[richardye1]

Hi,

I'm new to the community, and i don't live in the city either, but i have a obsession towards trains.

I saw the 2nd avenue line as a stub. Heres my proposal for the second avenue subway:

 

<T> and the to terminate (or go into the bronx) at 125/2

Then include a free out of system transfer (like the Lex 63), or a free in system transfer with those conveyor belts (like they did to Court Square). Make the transfer stretch from the 125th street Metro North Station to 125th Street 2nd Avenue. 

 

This solution would prevent the expensive tunneling that MTA would have to in phase two under the Lex, and allow for an easy connection for bronx (if they ever get the money...). 

 

Well you might say the transfer is too long for it to take pressure off of the Lex. If you make the transfer have less walking like Court Square (and less like the 42-PABT bc that sucks) then it might prove to be a viable option. 

 

Anyone from the Bronx can reach the UES, by using this transfer instead of the LEX. It is advantageous since instead of walking a few avenues to their final destination, they can shave off a few minutes by using the fast transfer (this wouldnt do anything to people in between LEX and 2 though). Of course this not as good as having a transfer at 125/lex but the best way to relieve the Lex is to expand the SAS into Bronx... 

 

Anyone traveling from the Bronx to midtown won't use 125th street to access the Q either. It is not logical to take this route, as the Q isnt express in upper manhattan, and riders can simply use lex63 to get to broadway, or the lex53 to use the 6/8 avenue lines. This is also true for the reverse trips as well. Anyone from the Bronx wouldn't use 125th Street to go to Brooklyn either. 

As said earlier the SAS is meant to provide better access for the residents on the UES to the rest of the city. The faster such a connection is completed, the better it is. The tunneling under 125th street to LEX would prove too costly and would slow the project down. The SAS to 125/2 should be built ASAP. I believe that to fully relieve the LEX crowding, the SAS has to go into the Bronx, and thus is why i don't fully support a terminus at 125/LEX.

 

I live in southern NJ, so i don't know the NYC subway front to back, but this option just pops at me. This might be flawed and i would like to receive comments about that.

Anyways thanks for reading!

[Wallyhorse]

I live in southern NJ, so i don't know the NYC subway front to back, but this option just pops at me. This might be flawed and i would like to receive comments about that.

Anyways thanks for reading!

That tunneling is needed because it's actually supposed to continue to at least Lenox Avenue for storage.  If anything, Phase 2 should be extended ALL THE WAY across 125th Street to a terminal at Broadway-12th Avenue as by the time such is complete, Columbia University should have completed its expansion.  Such would include a connection to the 8th Avenue line at St. Nicholas that would allow 8th Avenue trains to access the SAS when needed and also allow for Yankee Stadium specials on the SAS (such trains could have the Yankees logo used to designate it is a special Yankee Stadium train if the team and/or MLB allowed that). 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[Around the Horn]

That tunneling is needed because it's actually supposed to continue to at least Lenox Avenue for storage.  If anything, Phase 2 should be extended ALL THE WAY across 125th Street to a terminal at Broadway-12th Avenue as by the time such is complete, Columbia University should have completed its expansion.  Such would include a connection to the 8th Avenue line at St. Nicholas that would allow 8th Avenue trains to access the SAS when needed and also allow for Yankee Stadium specials on the SAS (such trains could have the Yankees logo used to designate it is a special Yankee Stadium train if the team and/or MLB allowed that). 

Yes and yes!

One of your better Ideas IMO.Takes pressure off the M60,M100 and Bx15 and includes operational flexibility (one of the reasons why I love the IND)

[Javier]

EDIT: I don't know why I keep forgetting that the and go into the Bronx.

 

Anyways, if the and were to get extended into the Bronx, they would at least have to stop near or next to 161 St - Yankee Stadium.

[Priincenene]

EDIT: I don't know why I keep forgetting that the and go into the Bronx.

Anyways, if the and " " were to get extended into the Bronx, they would at least have to stop near or next to 161 St - Yankee Stadium.

Fixed.

[CenSin]

Hi,

I'm new to the community, and i don't live in the city either, but i have a obsession towards trains.

I saw the 2nd avenue line as a stub. Heres my proposal for the second avenue subway:

 

<T> and the to terminate (or go into the bronx) at 125/2

Then include a free out of system transfer (like the Lex 63), or a free in system transfer with those conveyor belts (like they did to Court Square). Make the transfer stretch from the 125th street Metro North Station to 125th Street 2nd Avenue. 

 

This solution would prevent the expensive tunneling that MTA would have to in phase two under the Lex, and allow for an easy connection for bronx (if they ever get the money...). 

 

Well you might say the transfer is too long for it to take pressure off of the Lex. If you make the transfer have less walking like Court Square (and less like the 42-PABT bc that sucks) then it might prove to be a viable option. 

 

Anyone from the Bronx can reach the UES, by using this transfer instead of the LEX. It is advantageous since instead of walking a few avenues to their final destination, they can shave off a few minutes by using the fast transfer (this wouldnt do anything to people in between LEX and 2 though). Of course this not as good as having a transfer at 125/lex but the best way to relieve the Lex is to expand the SAS into Bronx... 

 

Anyone traveling from the Bronx to midtown won't use 125th street to access the Q either. It is not logical to take this route, as the Q isnt express in upper manhattan, and riders can simply use lex63 to get to broadway, or the lex53 to use the 6/8 avenue lines. This is also true for the reverse trips as well. Anyone from the Bronx wouldn't use 125th Street to go to Brooklyn either. 

As said earlier the SAS is meant to provide better access for the residents on the UES to the rest of the city. The faster such a connection is completed, the better it is. The tunneling under 125th street to LEX would prove too costly and would slow the project down. The SAS to 125/2 should be built ASAP. I believe that to fully relieve the LEX crowding, the SAS has to go into the Bronx, and thus is why i don't fully support a terminus at 125/LEX.

 

I live in southern NJ, so i don't know the NYC subway front to back, but this option just pops at me. This might be flawed and i would like to receive comments about that.

Anyways thanks for reading!

This takes the topic right back to the original post, which talked about the possibility of the current plan being an excuse to not extend a line to the Bronx. In my honest opinion, they should just stop the second phase at 116 Street with tail tracks extending all the way to 129 Street.

 

The way the current plan is formulated will result in poor Bronx service—the need to adequately serve Lexington Avenue line and MetroNorth’s 125 Street station will guarantee the diversion of half the Second Avenue line’s capacity away from the Bronx if the station is built. By keeping the line straight, all service is guaranteed to end up serving the Bronx when they build that far up. And I doubt the MTA has the financing to possibly build a short-turn station (like 72 Street was meant to be), so the Bronx wins.

[Mysterious2train]

 “Today I met with federal, state and city elected officials to discuss ways to advance and accelerate bringing the Second Avenue Subway to 125th Street. This is a prime goal for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority , for the state of New York and for the hundreds of thousands of people who will benefit from its construction. The MTA is fully committed to beginning work on the East Harlem extension even before the first segment to the Upper East Side opens by the end of next year.

“The MTA is committed to find every possible way to accelerate this project. We will employ alternative procurement methods to speed the planning, design, environmental review, property acquisition, utility relocation and construction preparation in our proposed 2015-19 Capital Program. Representative Charles Rangel, dean of the Congressional delegation, has offered to work with the delegation to explore ways to accelerate the project’s environmental review and assure the maximum federal funding possible, and we welcome their assistance.

“If these efforts to speed up the project timetable are successful, the MTA will amend our Capital Program and seek additional funds to begin heavy construction sooner. We appreciate the attention and commitment from our elected officials, and we share the goal of bringing the Second Avenue Subway to East Harlem as quickly as possible.”

Other officials participating in or represented at the meeting were:

U.S. Congress

Rep. Carolyn Maloney

Assembly Members

Keith Wright

James Brennan

Robert Rodriguez

Rebecca Seawright

Dan Quart

Brian Kavanagh

Senators

Liz Krueger

Adriano Espaillat

Jose Serrano

Brad Hoylman

Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer

Public Advocate Letitia James

City Council Members

Ben Kallos

Rosie Mendez

Daniel Garodnick

 

Statement from Prendergast yesterday in response to all the criticisms of the Phase 2 funding. Basically the same as the one made last week. I know Maloney has been around since the beginning, but why are many of these politicians only coming out of the woodwork in these past few weeks? It's great to see something, but these projects need constant political support and oversight, not just in stints. 

 

Also, on the topic of omitting the curve onto 125 St, I agree with the need for service to the Bronx, but a stop at 125 St is important because of the transfer opportunities. Take the numbers with a grain of salt, but between 106, 116, and 125/Lex, the MTA projects that the lion's share of ridership will come from 125 St. As in, by making 116 St the last stop you're throwing away a lot of potential ridership. Even a stop at 125 St and 2 Av with a walking tunnel would see less ridership.

 

If you're on Metro-North the is really not a bad option for heading to West Midtown since it goes straight to the W 57 St area and Herald Square. Not to mention that the fact that MNR riders and Bronx riders get the easier access to east of 2 Av. Much easier than a long walking transfer. If you're a rider who catches the at 125 to head to the far east side, it might be easier to just cut out the entirely. And I can't imagine transfer at Lex/125 would be any worse than the transfer at 53 St; probably faster if you're coming off the . It's another option people have. 

 

While building tracks under 125 St is an expense, that one stop brings in a big chunk of riders. And how far would an initial segment of a Bronx line go? Even if it only goes to say, 149 St, or all the way to Fordham, there's the expense of going cross-borough. Also, the stop at 125 St and Lex Av doesn't preclude building an extension to the Bronx in the future. When Phase 2 is under construction, the MTA plans to either build tail tracks up to 2 Av and 129 St or leave bellmouths around 121 St. Either way, a Bronx route can be built down the road without disrupting Manhattan service. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by Mysterious2train

[Trainmaster5]

I keep seeing these proposals that want to take the SAS westward on 125th St and I always ask myself why? The "original" SAS proposal and all subsequent ones envisioned a replacement for the old Second Avenue EL The environmental impact  studies all were conducted with an eye on a Bronx extension. Even the MNRR connection on 125th St is wasteful IMO because I doubt than many railroad riders would use that stop for any reason. Does anyone really think that upstate or Connecticut riders are going to exit a railroad train where the next stop is Grand Central Terminal for a subway train? Many MNRR trains don't even stop at 125th St today because the demand is not there.  To those of you who propose extending the line even further westward toward 12th Avenue or whatever I'll assume you folks are into Lionel or some sort of train simulator game. With the at Broadway, the , , and at St. Nick, the and at Lenox, the MNRR at Park, and the , , and at Lexington north and southbound service is fully covered. No one except a train buff is going to ride a crosstown 125th St train to head downtown. That would be a total waste of time for a commuter and a waste of money for the and the taxpayers. That's why they have buses on 125th St in the first place. The SAS is a quasi- replacement for the Second Avenue El and a congestion reliever for the Lexington Avenue subway. If any new money becomes available it should be directed toward the Bronx IMO because Central and West Harlem have adequate subway coverage for today and any forseeable population increases. Following that train of thought I'd think SE Queens, Southern Brooklyn, and NE Queens have better claims on any new NYC transportation monies. I don't think that any segment of the service area would support any 125th St line because the board wouldn't even consider it. For those Columbia University apologists out there I'll leave this with you. Private school= Private transport. Buy some buses or ride the existing transport options. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[Wallyhorse]

I keep seeing these proposals that want to take the SAS westward on 125th St and I always ask myself why? The "original" SAS proposal and all subsequent ones envisioned a replacement for the old Second Avenue EL The environmental impact  studies all were conducted with an eye on a Bronx extension. Even the MNRR connection on 125th St is wasteful IMO because I doubt than many railroad riders would use that stop for any reason. Does anyone really think that upstate or Connecticut riders are going to exit a railroad train where the next stop is Grand Central Terminal for a subway train? Many MNRR trains don't even stop at 125th St today because the demand is not there.  To those of you who propose extending the line even further westward toward 12th Avenue or whatever I'll assume you folks are into Lionel or some sort of train simulator game. With the at Broadway, the , , and at St. Nick, the and at Lenox, the MNRR at Park, and the , , and at Lexington north and southbound service is fully covered. No one except a train buff is going to ride a crosstown 125th St train to head downtown. That would be a total waste of time for a commuter and a waste of money for the and the taxpayers. That's why they have buses on 125th St in the first place. The SAS is a quasi- replacement for the Second Avenue El and a congestion reliever for the Lexington Avenue subway. If any new money becomes available it should be directed toward the Bronx IMO because Central and West Harlem have adequate subway coverage for today and any forseeable population increases. Following that train of thought I'd think SE Queens, Southern Brooklyn, and NE Queens have better claims on any new NYC transportation monies. I don't think that any segment of the service area would support any 125th St line because the board wouldn't even consider it. For those Columbia University apologists out there I'll leave this with you. Private school= Private transport. Buy some buses or ride the existing transport options. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

Fact is, Columbia University is undergoing a massive expansion over the next 10-20 years that is a big reason why extending Phase 2 to go all the way across 125th Street is important. not to mention the fact you also can have transfers between the other subway lines that stop at 125th that are well noted.  It also as I would do it have a direct connection to the 8th Avenue line, so a Bronx SAS could be done that way via the Concourse, but the real purpose of such a connection would allow for flexibility in allowing 8th Avenue trains to use the SAS if the CPW portion is not available for any reason.  By the time Columbia's expansion is complete, this will be needed because of all the new facilities there.  

 

I do agree on a Bronx portion being needed, which in fact until recently my ideas for rebuilding the 3rd Avenue EL were always BMT/IND specifically because a Bronx portion of such a revived line I would have had be for BOTH a Bronx branch of the SAS and 3rd Avenue EL.  That said, what I would do now is make a Bronx branch of the SAS a replacement for the old 3rd Avenue EL there, with if possible done where the platforms could have a small cutout portion so it could be done where normally, the line would be for BMT cars, but if an IRT car is using the line, the special cutout portion can come up to eliminate the gaps and allow BOTH types of cars to be ADA compliant with such platforms (the IRT parts would be because as part of doing the Bronx branch of the SAS, there would also be provisions for a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL to IRT standards in the future).   

[Around the Horn]

Fact is, Columbia University is undergoing a massive expansion over the next 10-20 years that is a big reason why extending Phase 2 to go all the way across 125th Street is important. not to mention the fact you also can have transfers between the other subway lines that stop at 125th that are well noted.  It also as I would do it have a direct connection to the 8th Avenue line, so a Bronx SAS could be done that way via the Concourse, but the real purpose of such a connection would allow for flexibility in allowing 8th Avenue trains to use the SAS if the CPW portion is not available for any reason.  By the time Columbia's expansion is complete, this will be needed because of all the new facilities there. 

This part makes sense and I would fully support it...

 

I do agree on a Bronx portion being needed, which in fact until recently my ideas for rebuilding the 3rd Avenue EL were always BMT/IND specifically because a Bronx portion of such a revived line I would have had be for BOTH a Bronx branch of the SAS and 3rd Avenue EL.  That said, what I would do now is make a Bronx branch of the SAS a replacement for the old 3rd Avenue EL there, with if possible done where the platforms could have a small cutout portion so it could be done where normally, the line would be for BMT cars, but if an IRT car is using the line, the special cutout portion can come up to eliminate the gaps and allow BOTH types of cars to be ADA compliant with such platforms (the IRT parts would be because as part of doing the Bronx branch of the SAS, there would also be provisions for a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL to IRT standards in the future).   

This is just a mess that never should happen...

[CenSin]

Also, on the topic of omitting the curve onto 125 St, I agree with the need for service to the Bronx, but a stop at 125 St is important because of the transfer opportunities. Take the numbers with a grain of salt, but between 106, 116, and 125/Lex, the MTA projects that the lion's share of ridership will come from 125 St. As in, by making 116 St the last stop you're throwing away a lot of potential ridership. Even a stop at 125 St and 2 Av with a walking tunnel would see less ridership.

 

If you're on Metro-North the is really not a bad option for heading to West Midtown since it goes straight to the W 57 St area and Herald Square. Not to mention that the fact that MNR riders and Bronx riders get the easier access to east of 2 Av. Much easier than a long walking transfer. If you're a rider who catches the at 125 to head to the far east side, it might be easier to just cut out the entirely. And I can't imagine transfer at Lex/125 would be any worse than the transfer at 53 St; probably faster if you're coming off the . It's another option people have. 

 

While building tracks under 125 St is an expense, that one stop brings in a big chunk of riders. And how far would an initial segment of a Bronx line go? Even if it only goes to say, 149 St, or all the way to Fordham, there's the expense of going cross-borough.

The above is the exact reason why the station at 125 Street and Lexington Avenue should not be built.

 

Also, the stop at 125 St and Lex Av doesn't preclude building an extension to the Bronx in the future. When Phase 2 is under construction, the MTA plans to either build tail tracks up to 2 Av and 129 St or leave bellmouths around 121 St. Either way, a Bronx route can be built down the road without disrupting Manhattan service.

I did not say it could not be extended to the Bronx, but that if it were extended to the Bronx, the investment sunken into the 125 Street station and the transfer opportunities would siphon off a significant amount of traffic from the Bronx extension. (All my previous posts on the topic corroborates.)

 

Let's say the Second Avenue line has capacity for 30 trains per hour in each direction. That's in line with other parts of the system where each pair of tracks supports 30 trains per hour per direction.

 

If the subway were extended straight up without any diversion to 125 Street and Lexington Avenue, all 30 trains per hour would be guaranteed to go to the Bronx. (And this assumes the feds are unwilling to pay for extras like short-turn stations and tracks.) Furthermore, if the subway were to branch into two in the Bronx, you could conceivably have 15 trains per hour on each branch.

 

The current plans call for a split within Manhattan with one branch dead-ending at 125 Street and Lexington Avenue, and the other branch hypothetically going to the Bronx one day. If you really believe in the importance of the 125 Street–Lexington Avenue station, you'd also understand that 15-or-so trains per hour will be taken away from the Bronx, leaving another 15 for the Bronx. If the line branches in the Bronx, the remaining 15 trains per hour will have to be divvied up again—perhaps 7 trains per hour for each branch. Or perhaps this 15-trains-per-hour limit will be the factor that prevents another branch from being built. This apparently hasn't stopped the Washington Metro from doing just that, however, and it's now facing the consequences.

 

One conceivable benefit of screwing the Second Avenue line by dead-ending in Manhattan is the 125 Street crosstown extension, which itself would be pretty useful for those whose business is entirely out of midtown Manhattan. Another is the possibility that surging Bronx ridership will force the MTA to consider building a second trunk line down Manhattan similar to how the White Plains Road line splits up to serve both 7 Avenue and Lexington Avenue. This is similar to a possible Washington Metro plan to create capacity by creating a new trunk line to ease the currently overburdened trunk.

 

But for the long term, cutting out 125 Street and Lexington Avenue from the Second Avenue line will serve it better in the future. 125 Street and Lexington Avenue is simply a temporary measure to give Second Avenue the ridership that it can't get because it doesn't go to the Bronx right now.

[Trainmaster5]

My opposition to a cross 125th St segment, simply put, is who benefits from this expenditure of the public's money? Are businesses along the street going to close up shop if this line isn't built? NO. Will crosstown traffic dry up on the commercial strip? NO Will Columbia University halt it's long planned expansion if the line isn't built? NO. This line has nothing to do with the expansion and hasn't ever been mentioned as part of the university's plan. Does this westward diversion screw over a substantial base of potential riders ( the Bronx)? YES. If this idea of a cross 125th St line is so important build a trolley line instead. It's cheaper by far, not as disruptive, and I'd guess the ridership would probably equal the present day bus service on the street. Wallyhorse, I have a question especially for you. How come you love to propose spending the public's money for the benefit of private projects? I remember our discussions about the racino at Aqueduct, Belmont Park, and Hudson Yards in particular. I still say these projects are private endeavors that benefit their sponsors way more than any potential benefit or need of the general public. You want it, you pay for it. With limited funding available I'd always side with the greater public good. Carry on.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Trainmaster5

[Fresh Pond]

^^^This

 

...I mean, Columbia University already had a stop on the outside of the main campus, and with the M60 SBS both sound there and acting as the de facto crosstown line stopping at ALL of the north/south subway lines, a SAS extension across town just to benefit Columbia seems wasteful.

[Wallyhorse]

^^^This

 

...I mean, Columbia University already had a stop on the outside of the main campus, and with the M60 SBS both sound there and acting as the de facto crosstown line stopping at ALL of the north/south subway lines, a SAS extension across town just to benefit Columbia seems wasteful.

It's not just to benefit Columbia (though they would benefit obviously).

 

The other parts of it would be direct transfers to the at Broadway-12th Avenue (the terminal, from which those looking for City College can make a simple transfer at 125), the and at St. Nicholas (PLUS a direct connection to the 8th Avenue line that the other trains can use if and when needed to access the SAS AND such can also be used for Yankee Stadium specials on the SAS as well as if warranted a Concourse connection to the SAS) and the at Lenox Avenue.  Anyone from extreme upper Manhattan looking for the east side would benefit by this extension in addition to those at Columbia because of the transfer points involved.

 

This is a lot more than just Columbia.

[CenSin]

It's not just to benefit Columbia (though they would benefit obviously).

 

The other parts of it would be direct transfers to the at Broadway-12th Avenue (the terminal, from which those looking for City College can make a simple transfer at 125), the and at St. Nicholas (PLUS a direct connection to the 8th Avenue line that the other trains can use if and when needed to access the SAS AND such can also be used for Yankee Stadium specials on the SAS as well as if warranted a Concourse connection to the SAS) and the at Lenox Avenue.  Anyone from extreme upper Manhattan looking for the east side would benefit by this extension in addition to those at Columbia because of the transfer points involved.

This is exactly how a real estate developer and politician would frame it. They always mention how much it'll benefit the public, but neglect to mention that a lion's share of the benefits actually goes to themselves.

 

Trainmaster5's position is just this: since the public:private benefit for a Bronx extension is greater than the public:private benefit for a 125 Street extension, the Bronx extension takes priority. If 50% of project A benefits the public and 90% of project B benefits the public, project B should get priority.

 

It would do your arguments a lot of good to not mention any private interests in your proposals. Expansion of a public system should only consider public benefits. And it would also behoove someone with your knowledge to consider the downsides and weigh accordingly.

[B46 via Utica]

^^^This

 

...I mean, Columbia University already had a stop on the outside of the main campus, and with the M60 SBS both sound there and acting as the de facto crosstown line stopping at ALL of the north/south subway lines, a SAS extension across town just to benefit Columbia seems wasteful.

I definitely agree a SAS extension across towns just to benefit the people at Columbia University is pointless especially if they already have a bunch of transit options there even if those options don't take them where they want to go exactly they are a bunch of connections that they can make the whole extension would just be a waste of money

[richardye1]

It's not just to benefit Columbia (though they would benefit obviously).

 

The other parts of it would be direct transfers to the at Broadway-12th Avenue (the terminal, from which those looking for City College can make a simple transfer at 125), the and at St. Nicholas (PLUS a direct connection to the 8th Avenue line that the other trains can use if and when needed to access the SAS AND such can also be used for Yankee Stadium specials on the SAS as well as if warranted a Concourse connection to the SAS) and the at Lenox Avenue.  Anyone from extreme upper Manhattan looking for the east side would benefit by this extension in addition to those at Columbia because of the transfer points involved.

 

This is a lot more than just Columbia.

Unless you work at columbia and live on the UES, i see no benefit in having a crosstown line. 

[Mysterious2train]

I keep seeing these proposals that want to take the SAS westward on 125th St and I always ask myself why? The "original" SAS proposal and all subsequent ones envisioned a replacement for the old Second Avenue EL The environmental impact  studies all were conducted with an eye on a Bronx extension. Even the MNRR connection on 125th St is wasteful IMO because I doubt than many railroad riders would use that stop for any reason. Does anyone really think that upstate or Connecticut riders are going to exit a railroad train where the next stop is Grand Central Terminal for a subway train? Many MNRR trains don't even stop at 125th St today because the demand is not there.  To those of you who propose extending the line even further westward toward 12th Avenue or whatever I'll assume you folks are into Lionel or some sort of train simulator game. With the at Broadway, the , , and at St. Nick, the and at Lenox, the MNRR at Park, and the , , and at Lexington north and southbound service is fully covered. No one except a train buff is going to ride a crosstown 125th St train to head downtown. That would be a total waste of time for a commuter and a waste of money for the and the taxpayers. That's why they have buses on 125th St in the first place. The SAS is a quasi- replacement for the Second Avenue El and a congestion reliever for the Lexington Avenue subway. If any new money becomes available it should be directed toward the Bronx IMO because Central and West Harlem have adequate subway coverage for today and any forseeable population increases. Following that train of thought I'd think SE Queens, Southern Brooklyn, and NE Queens have better claims on any new NYC transportation monies. I don't think that any segment of the service area would support any 125th St line because the board wouldn't even consider it. For those Columbia University apologists out there I'll leave this with you. Private school= Private transport. Buy some buses or ride the existing transport options. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

 

 

Unless you work at columbia and live on the UES, i see no benefit in having a crosstown line. 

 

 

The at Lex/125 would give Metro-North riders an easier trip to West Midtown. Right now if you’re a MNR rider going to somewhere like Herald Square or Columbus Circle you have to make 2 transfers after getting off at Grand Central.  The will shorten those trips. This is a perfectly legitimate riderbase that’s being overlooked. Why? It’s no different from how LIRR riders transfer to the at Woodside or Hunterspoint to get to the East Side. There are many LIRR trains that don't stop at Woodside and Hunterspoint Av is rush hours only, but that doesn't mean that there's a lack of demand. 

 

Also, while I don’t think a westward extension down 125 St is an upmost priority, people here are really underestimating its usefulness. It would help riders in the Bronx by connecting all the north-south routes. I mean, right now traveling between the east and west sides of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan is a complete pain (and a few Select Bus Service routes does not negate that point). Being able to easily get from the to the via the would make a lot of Bronx trips shorter. Trainmaster, you say that Harlem has adequate subway coverage now but you seem to be ignoring the fact that these new connections would benefit people beyond those who live/work in Harlem. That's like me saying the MTA shouldn't have spent money to build the transfer at Jay St-Metrotech because Downtown Brooklyn already has adequate subway service. The Jay St transfer obviously benefits people whose destinations are not Downtown Brooklyn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I obviously think a Bronx segment should be built, but it and a 125/Lex stop are not mutually exclusive. One isn't preventing the other. If the MTA suddenly decided tomorrow to scrap the 125/Lex stop and just build a terminal station at 125 St and 2 Av instead that wouldn't make a Bronx extension come along any faster.  

 

Censin does have a point on the reduction in capacity but most of the Bronx's local stations have 15 TPH or less so express stations aside the most major loss is a possible 2nd branch which is even further down the line than a 1st one. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mysterious2train

[CenSin]

The at Lex/125 would give Metro-North riders an easier trip to West Midtown. Right now if you’re a MNR rider going to somewhere like Herald Square or Columbus Circle you have to make 2 transfers after getting off at Grand Central.  The will shorten those trips. This is a perfectly legitimate riderbase that’s being overlooked. Why? It’s no different from how LIRR riders transfer to the at Woodside or Hunterspoint to get to the East Side. There are many LIRR trains that don't stop at Woodside and Hunterspoint Av is rush hours only, but that doesn't mean that there's a lack of demand. 

 

Also, while I don’t think a westward extension down 125 St is an upmost priority, people here are really underestimating its usefulness. It would help riders in the Bronx by connecting all the north-south routes. I mean, right now traveling between the east and west sides of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan is a complete pain (and a few Select Bus Service routes does not negate that point). Being able to easily get from the to the via the would make a lot of Bronx trips shorter. Trainmaster, you say that Harlem has adequate subway coverage now but you seem to be ignoring the fact that these new connections would benefit people beyond those who live/work in Harlem. That's like me saying the MTA shouldn't have spent money to build the transfer at Jay St-Metrotech because Downtown Brooklyn already has adequate subway service. The Jay St transfer obviously benefits people whose destinations are not Downtown Brooklyn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I obviously think a Bronx segment should be built, but it and a 125/Lex stop are not mutually exclusive. One isn't preventing the other. If the MTA suddenly decided tomorrow to scrap the 125/Lex stop and just build a terminal station at 125 St and 2 Av instead that wouldn't make a Bronx extension come along any faster.  

 

Censin does have a point on the reduction in capacity but most of the Bronx's local stations have 15 TPH or less so express stations aside the most major loss is a possible 2nd branch which is even further down the line than a 1st one. 

Overall, my opinion of a 125 Street station at Lexington Avenue is neutral. The potential future benefits are tempting, especially since the city is growing. The Bronx extension is definitely coming if the city doesn't want to stunt its own growth. And with the Bronx extension will come explosive growth. The MTA will be left with the choice of:

1. Build another trunk line to make up for the loss of Bronx capacity due to the 125 Street station.
2. Add a second set of tunnels to the Second Avenue line (possibly express) from the Bronx to as far as 72 Street if not farther.
3. Connect the Bronx branch to the Grand Concourse line for Central Park West access.

I like all three ideas.

 

But if the modern signalling system proves capable, Second Avenue may be the first double-track trunk line to regularly feature 3 simultaneous routes running along its length without much trouble. France has lines that carry 40 train per hour after all—and that works out to about 13 trains per hour.

Edited November 16, 2015 by CenSin