Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[trainfanrod]

Im reading that the Grand Concourse 149 st was suppost to have a metro north station with it maybe the can go there and then into 3rd ave EL

[CenSin]

There will be provisions built in case of a Bronx extension

And I reiterate (the same point since 2012 and last month) that while the Bronx extension will be provisioned for, it denies the Bronx the full service offered by 2 Avenue since half the traffic will be siphoned off by the dead-end station at 125 Street. Because of the diversion of half the traffic, the Bronx will never get two subway branches as originally envisioned since there would not be enough capacity to split the line further. Of course, the MTA could build the branches anyway, but then it would have to shutter the 125 Street station or slash service to it. The former would be unlikely given the amount of money the MTA is going to sink into the station. The latter would subvert the station’s secondary purpose as a transfer point because with low frequency, very few would find the transfer worthwhile. The result is obvious: the 125 Street station at Lexington Avenue will effectively deny the Bronx a second branch.

 

And to reiterate, we’re not saying the Bronx is not getting a branch. We're saying it will most likely not get a second branch—ever. This has always been the complaint, and this is one point that too many misunderstand due to hasty reading.

Edited December 8, 2015 by CenSin

[Lance]

I think we should concentrate on getting one Bronx extension before we concern ourselves with a second. While it would be ideal to build a line for east Bronx (Throgs Neck for instance), I'd like to see something that fixes the transit deficiency that was caused by tearing down the 3rd Avenue elevated first.

[Wallyhorse]

I think we should concentrate on getting one Bronx extension before we concern ourselves with a second. While it would be ideal to build a line for east Bronx (Throgs Neck for instance), I'd like to see something that fixes the transit deficiency that was caused by tearing down the 3rd Avenue elevated first.

Right!

 

And my original idea there was to rebuild the old Bronx 3rd Avenue El as BMT/IND (with consolidated stations from the old El) with provisions that would allow later on for a new 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan to be built if it is needed (and I still think it could very well be needed in the future if the kind of building proposed for midtown comes to fruition).  

Edited December 8, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[T to Dyre Avenue]

And I reiterate (the same point since 2012 and last month) that while the Bronx extension will be provisioned for, it denies the Bronx the full service offered by 2 Avenue since half the traffic will be siphoned off by the dead-end station at 125 Street. Because of the diversion of half the traffic, the Bronx will never get two subway branches as originally envisioned since there would not be enough capacity to split the line further. Of course, the MTA could build the branches anyway, but then it would have to shutter the 125 Street station or slash service to it. The former would be unlikely given the amount of money the MTA is going to sink into the station. The latter would subvert the station’s secondary purpose as a transfer point because with low frequency, very few would find the transfer worthwhile. The result is obvious: the 125 Street station at Lexington Avenue will effectively deny the Bronx a second branch.

 

And to reiterate, we’re not saying the Bronx is not getting a branch. We're saying it will most likely not get a second branch—ever. This has always been the complaint, and this is one point that too many misunderstand due to hasty reading.

  

CenSin, you bring up a very valid point about the Lex/125 transfer. It may see less than projected. And it's going to be very expensive to build because it will have to be built deep to clear the existing triple-deck 125th St station. Let's be honest here, if you take the or into Manhattan and currently transfer to the or to get to Midtown or Lower Manhattan faster, would you really give that up for a train that won't run as frequently as the and combined and that's located two levels down? Phase 2 is supposed to be the easiest and least expensive part of the entire SAS project, but it sounds like the connection at 125th and Lex is going to make it much more expensive and complex than it needs to be.

 

I wonder if it might actually be just as cost-effective to just continue the north on 2nd Ave after 125, cross under the Harlem River, under Lincoln Ave and terminate at 3rd Ave/138 St with a transfer to the there. Think about it for a moment. Yes, it will be expensive with a tunnel under the river. But they can sink a pre-fabricated tunnel like the 63rd St tunnel (but shorter). But I think a 138th St transfer would be better for enticing line riders off of the and because the transfer would be one stop earlier and it would be much faster and easier with all service on the same level (as opposed to 125 with separate levels for uptown and downtown trains). And with tail tracks pointing north, it would make any further extension into the Bronx that much easier to start. Furthermore, it would relieve crowding at 125th.

I think we should concentrate on getting one Bronx extension before we concern ourselves with a second. While it would be ideal to build a line for east Bronx (Throgs Neck for instance), I'd like to see something that fixes the transit deficiency that was caused by tearing down the 3rd Avenue elevated first.

Right. And it would be easier to do that by giving the SAS a foothold in the Bronx with a transfer station at 138th and 3rd vs 125th and Lex.

[CenSin]

I think we should concentrate on getting one Bronx extension before we concern ourselves with a second. While it would be ideal to build a line for east Bronx (Throgs Neck for instance), I'd like to see something that fixes the transit deficiency that was caused by tearing down the 3rd Avenue elevated first.

You're merely dismissing it as "not urgent," but that doesn't really deny my point. It's still true. What can the MTA do about it when it does need to build a second branch? I believe the Bronx is the next Williamsburg/Bushwick in the coming decades.

 

Let's not kill the discussion by merely waving it away as a miniscule concern. It will need to be discussed eventually.

Edited December 9, 2015 by CenSin

[CenSin]

I wonder if it might actually be just as cost-effective to just continue the north on 2nd Ave after 125, cross under the Harlem River, under Lincoln Ave and terminate at 3rd Ave/138 St with a transfer to the there. Think about it for a moment. Yes, it will be expensive with a tunnel under the river. But they can sink a pre-fabricated tunnel like the 63rd St tunnel (but shorter). But I think a 138th St transfer would be better for enticing line riders off of the and because the transfer would be one stop earlier and it would be much faster and easier with all service on the same level (as opposed to 125 with separate levels for uptown and downtown trains). And with tail tracks pointing north, it would make any further extension into the Bronx that much easier to start. Furthermore, it would relieve crowding at 125th.

Right. And it would be easier to do that by giving the SAS a foothold in the Bronx with a transfer station at 138th and 3rd vs 125th and Lex.

That would actually make sense. and passengers aren’t just going to make a jump off a train that’s already express unless the is simply their only option. But if you move the connection over to 3 Avenue–138 Street, the connection would be more appealing. People could dodge the crowds at 125 Street, and once phase 3 comes online, service levels would be competitive enough with the Lexington Avenue expresses that the transter becomes well-used (because—of course—the MTA would have no choice but to send all train traffic to the Bronx instead of half). Add another station up north and you also serve the and crowds benefiting everyone on the between East 180 Street and 3 Avenue–149 Street. Of course, you miss the crowds, but they are on an express and they have numerous transfer options from 59 Street down. Edited December 9, 2015 by CenSin

[RollOver]

I remember a couple of months ago (in this thread), I actually said they should avoid sending SAS to make a transfer with the Lex at 125th. Keep SAS on 2nd Ave and send it straight up to the Bronx via 3rd Ave, with a transfer to the at 3rd Ave-138th St and a transfer with the and at 3rd Ave-149th St.

 

Much better.

[Javier]

Actually, I think they were planning to have 1 service (probably the ) terminate at 125 St while another service ( maybe the ) goes into Bronx via the tail tracks. It seems to me like that's what they were trying to do.

[CenSin]

Actually, I think they were planning to have 1 service (probably the ) terminate at 125 St while another service ( maybe the ) goes into Bronx via the tail tracks. It seems to me like that's what they were trying to do.

So you’ve finally caught on to the fact.

 

Recently mentioned on:

• October 24, 2015: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/34507-second-avenue-subway-construction-discussion/?p=853485
• February 8, 2012: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/34507-second-avenue-subway-construction-discussion/?p=505984

Edited December 9, 2015 by CenSin

[LTA1992]

I think we should concentrate on getting one Bronx extension before we concern ourselves with a second. While it would be ideal to build a line for east Bronx (Throgs Neck for instance), I'd like to see something that fixes the transit deficiency that was caused by tearing down the 3rd Avenue elevated first.

All the more reason that Phase II should terminate at The Hub. Not only would you provide a more convenient transfer that would do more to relieve Lexington Avenue congestion, you'll also get the river tunnel out of the way sooner at a time when it will be cheaper. We all know that as time goes on, that tunnel will get progressively more expensive.

 

Naturally, the first Branch could go up Third Avenue, after Fordham Plaza, the natural decision would be to send it eastward. Via which thoroughfare, is another thing. For maximum relief of the East Side Local, you could have the second branch follow the South Bronx Line routing proposed for the Second Phase IND.

Edited December 9, 2015 by LTA1992

[Javier]

CenSin, I've been known this fact. I was saying In general.

[beelinefan]

Lets just get phase 1 up and running before we talk about extensions to the Bronx and elsewhere.

Edited December 9, 2015 by beelinefan

[Union Tpke]

Lets just get phase 1 up and running before we talk about extensions to the Bronx and elsewhere.

it is almost done, so I think it is very appropriate.

[Priincenene]

Is an extension to the Bronx even necessary? You already got 2 IND lines ( ) running in another side of the BX. CBTC is not going to be installed once this project is completely done because, like someone just mentioned, this has been planned/constructed before CBTC ever came alive around the early 2000's its not happening because then the whole Broadway line(s) will need all its fleets CBTC-compatible.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Priincenene

[LTA1992]

Is an extension to the Bronx even necessary? You already got 2 IND lines ( ) running in another side of the BX. CBTC is not going to be installed once this project is completely done because, like someone just mentioned, this has been planned/constructed before CBTC ever came alive around the early 2000's its not happening because then the whole Broadway line(s) will need all its fleets CBTC-compatible.

It's completely necessary! Third Avenue is the first natural corridor for new service. Why? It lost it's rail service over 40 years ago and it was not adequate replaced. That area is a dead zone and is at least a mile to a mile and a half away from subway service on either end. Secondly, the East Side needs better transit options and unlike Brooklyn, the Bronx is limited in it's routing into Manhattan. This route has been asked for since 1929 (actually as early as 1920 with people on the East Side advocating for a First Avenue Subway) and it would be a complete and utter disservice to The Bronx for it to not get an extension. It NEEDS two. But this stupidly planned stub terminal at 125th Street and Lexington negates that completely. I had a lot more to say, but they tend to drift away due to my habit of thinking about ten things and typing at the same time.

 

CBTC is not the solution to this city's transit problem. It is literally a stop-gap that, by the time it's fully installed, will no longer be considered such. Expansion will need to be talked about once again in earnest.

Edited December 9, 2015 by LTA1992

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That would actually make sense. and passengers aren’t just going to make a jump off a train that’s already express unless the is simply their only option. But if you move the connection over to 3 Avenue–138 Street, the connection would be more appealing. People could dodge the crowds at 125 Street, and once phase 3 comes online, service levels would be competitive enough with the Lexington Avenue expresses that the transter becomes well-used (because—of course—the MTA would have no choice but to send all train traffic to the Bronx instead of half). Add another station up north and you also serve the and crowds benefiting everyone on the between East 180 Street and 3 Avenue–149 Street. Of course, you miss the crowds, but they are on an express and they have numerous transfer options from 59 Street down.

It would be even better if they could go up to 149 & 3rd as part of Phase 2 (especially for the crowd), though I'd really like to get over to 149/Grand Concourse to capture some of the crowd.

 

For those of you who just joined this topic, bear in mind that I (like everyone else) already know that Phase 2 calls for taking the line to 125 & Lex. But like CenSin, I am questioning whether that is the best option for Phase 2, or if it might actually be more effective to take the just a short distance into the South Bronx to connect with one or two of the existing lines there.

[Javier]

Is an extension to the Bronx even necessary? You already got 2 IND lines ( ) running in another side of the BX. CBTC is not going to be installed once this project is completely done because, like someone just mentioned, this has been planned/constructed before CBTC ever came alive around the early 2000's its not happening because then the whole Broadway line(s) will need all its fleets CBTC-compatible.

Bronx is at least one of the boroughs (other being Queens) that needs a another subway line. And who said that the SAS was going to have CBTC? It might be built with provisions FOR CBTC, but it's not going to have CBTC. And your acting like Broadway is going to get CBTC by tomorrow morning, when it actually will get it when the R46's retire (correct me if I'm wrong). Right now is the time more then anything to talk about SAS in the Bronx, heck it's been a discussion for nearly half a century!

[Priincenene]

Bronx is at least one of the boroughs (other being Queens) that needs a another subway line. And who said that the SAS was going to have CBTC? It might be built with provisions FOR CBTC, but it's not going to have CBTC. And your acting like Broadway is going to get CBTC by tomorrow morning, when it actually will get it when the R46's retire (correct me if I'm wrong). Right now is the time more then anything to talk about SAS in the Bronx, heck it's been a discussion for nearly half a century!

Isn't Second Av suppose to be built with CBTC or will it use modern signalling?

Mmhm, I'm listening, go on...

 

You're right tho about the need of extra subway lines.

[Wallyhorse]

It would be even better if they could go up to 149 & 3rd as part of Phase 2 (especially for the crowd), though I'd really like to get over to 149/Grand Concourse to capture some of the crowd.

 

For those of you who just joined this topic, bear in mind that I (like everyone else) already know that Phase 2 calls for taking the line to 125 & Lex. But like CenSin, I am questioning whether that is the best option for Phase 2, or if it might actually be more effective to take the just a short distance into the South Bronx to connect with one or two of the existing lines there.

Right, and I agree about going via 3rd Avenue in The Bronx.

 

Perhaps for The Bronx if it means getting it done is to have it built underground to where it stops at 138th Street-3rd Avenue for the and then have it go above ground to a temporary terminal at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue for the / transfer.  From there, perhaps as a Phase 2A, such could continue on 3rd Avenue in The Bronx as a two-track elevated line running the old 3rd Avenue El route in The Bronx, including stopping on a new upper level of Gun Hill Road (above the existing station) where it would terminate.  As noted, such as I would do it would be done with provisions to later on build a new 3rd Avenue El if as I think may very well happen it's eventually needed in addition to a full SAS.

[CenSin]

Right, and I agree about going via 3rd Avenue in The Bronx.

 

Perhaps for The Bronx if it means getting it done is to have it built underground to where it stops at 138th Street-3rd Avenue for the and then have it go above ground to a temporary terminal at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue for the / transfer.  From there, perhaps as a Phase 2A, such could continue on 3rd Avenue in The Bronx as a two-track elevated line running the old 3rd Avenue El route in The Bronx, including stopping on a new upper level of Gun Hill Road (above the existing station) where it would terminate.  As noted, such as I would do it would be done with provisions to later on build a new 3rd Avenue El if as I think may very well happen it's eventually needed in addition to a full SAS.

If you’re talking about a 3 Avenue Line in Manhattan…

1. The Lexington Avenue Line is half a block west of 3 Avenue.
2. The 2 Avenue Line is one block east of 3 Avenue.

After the 2 Avenue Line is built, the only other space that could reasonably be outfitted with subway service is 5 Avenue. 5 Avenue is about the same distance from Lexington Avenue as 2 Avenue. But we all know that the NIMBYs over there will send the construction workers flying back over to 2 Avenue to build a pair of express tracks instead. And as a consolation prize to the Bronx for building a boondoggle of a terminal in Manhattan, a pair of express tracks would serve them pretty well.

[Lance]

You're merely dismissing it as "not urgent," but that doesn't really deny my point. It's still true. What can the MTA do about it when it does need to build a second branch? I believe the Bronx is the next Williamsburg/Bushwick in the coming decades.Let's not kill the discussion by merely waving it away as a miniscule concern. It will need to be discussed eventually.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I also favor a 2 Av-125 St station over one on Lexington Ave. Unless we're building a crosstown line to the west side via 125th St, such a turn is kind of pointless. I was simply remarking on your insistance that the Bronx is already doomed because of a planned branch service for a line whose plans will likely have to redrawn before construction even starts. I wouldn't be surprised if some new study comes out in a few years and favors a station on 2nd Ave over one on Lexington Ave.

 

 

CenSin, you bring up a very valid point about the Lex/125 transfer. It may see less than projected. And it's going to be very expensive to build because it will have to be built deep to clear the existing triple-deck 125th St station. Let's be honest here, if you take the or into Manhattan and currently transfer to the or to get to Midtown or Lower Manhattan faster, would you really give that up for a train that won't run as frequently as the and combined and that's located two levels down? Phase 2 is supposed to be the easiest and least expensive part of the entire SAS project, but it sounds like the connection at 125th and Lex is going to make it much more expensive and complex than it needs to be.

I wonder if it might actually be just as cost-effective to just continue the north on 2nd Ave after 125, cross under the Harlem River, under Lincoln Ave and terminate at 3rd Ave/138 St with a transfer to the there. Think about it for a moment. Yes, it will be expensive with a tunnel under the river. But they can sink a pre-fabricated tunnel like the 63rd St tunnel (but shorter). But I think a 138th St transfer would be better for enticing line riders off of the and because the transfer would be one stop earlier and it would be much faster and easier with all service on the same level (as opposed to 125 with separate levels for uptown and downtown trains). And with tail tracks pointing north, it would make any further extension into the Bronx that much easier to start. Furthermore, it would relieve crowding at 125th.

Right. And it would be easier to do that by giving the SAS a foothold in the Bronx with a transfer station at 138th and 3rd vs 125th and Lex.

It would exponentially cheaper for a 2/125 station over a Lex/125 one. I'm not sure how deep the nortern section built in the '70s is, but it will have to go deep down to clear the Lexington Ave station. Then there is the cost of shoring up and strengthening said station.

 

  

Right, and I agree about going via 3rd Avenue in The Bronx.

Perhaps for The Bronx if it means getting it done is to have it built underground to where it stops at 138th Street-3rd Avenue for the and then have it go above ground to a temporary terminal at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue for the / transfer.  From there, perhaps as a Phase 2A, such could continue on 3rd Avenue in The Bronx as a two-track elevated line running the old 3rd Avenue El route in The Bronx, including stopping on a new upper level of Gun Hill Road (above the existing station) where it would terminate.  As noted, such as I would do it would be done with provisions to later on build a new 3rd Avenue El if as I think may very well happen it's eventually needed in addition to a full SAS.

You love pitching that idea, don't you? There are very few places where people will accept a new elevated line. 3rd Ave in Manhattan is nowhere on that list. It would have to be a subway, no ifs ands or buts about it. Also, where the hell would you build a portal for a 3rd Ave elevated in the Bronx anyway?

[bobtehpanda]

125-2nd Av is a crap location because the Triboro ramps are right there, it's at a pretty high-risk flood location on the flood maps, and the plans for the area around it (like the new 129 St Yard that they have been considering) don't leave a lot of room for development.

 

3 Av-149 with an intermediate stop at 3 Av-148, underground, would be a great way to spearhead a 3rd Av or Park Av Line in the Bronx, but the extra stations and tunneling is $$$.

 

125-Park is a good location transfer wise, but cuts off the possibility of 2 branches to the Bronx. However, if the tail tracks are built as far as Lenox like in the 2004 FEIS, then building a crosstown line to Broadway is pretty trivial.

 

Ultimately these are the tradeoffs (and I believe that 125-2nd's drawbacks are so big it's not a great place for a station at all; I'd have it bypassing 125th completely and just heading to the Bronx.)

[Wallyhorse]

125-2nd Av is a crap location because the Triboro ramps are right there, it's at a pretty high-risk flood location on the flood maps, and the plans for the area around it (like the new 129 St Yard that they have been considering) don't leave a lot of room for development.

 

3 Av-149 with an intermediate stop at 3 Av-148, underground, would be a great way to spearhead a 3rd Av or Park Av Line in the Bronx, but the extra stations and tunneling is $$$.

 

125-Park is a good location transfer wise, but cuts off the possibility of 2 branches to the Bronx. However, if the tail tracks are built as far as Lenox like in the 2004 FEIS, then building a crosstown line to Broadway is pretty trivial.

 

Ultimately these are the tradeoffs (and I believe that 125-2nd's drawbacks are so big it's not a great place for a station at all; I'd have it bypassing 125th completely and just heading to the Bronx.)

Or the other option would be to have the line go elevated after the portion already built (with a portal at the end of that) and go to an elevated station at 125/2nd and then over a bridge to get to The Bronx, where the line would remain elevated over the former 3rd Avenue El route.

 

    You love pitching that idea, don't you? There are very few places where people will accept a new elevated line. 3rd Ave in Manhattan is nowhere on that list. It would have to be a subway, no ifs ands or buts about it. Also, where the hell would you build a portal for a 3rd Ave elevated in the Bronx anyway?

It may be where younger generations who are not as car-centric as earlier generations and want to ride trains will look at that as a trade-off for being able to get around faster.   If it means getting it done or not at all, newer generations may not frown on els the way older generations have.

[Sparen of Iria]

Or the other option would be to have the line go elevated after the portion already built (with a portal at the end of that) and go to an elevated station at 125/2nd and then over a bridge to get to The Bronx, where the line would remain elevated over the former 3rd Avenue El route.

Please let's not remove three lanes of a major New York City avenue right before two bridge approaches.