Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

I would also have a Pelham Parkway route. Also, would the line be useful if it was on the Bruckner instead of on Lafayette Avenue?

 

Routes in highway medians or to the sides of highways are pretty common elsewhere. In particular, Chicago does a pretty good job of integrating bus connections at its highway stations. They're not so great for TOD, but New York has never had a problem encouraging that sort of thing anyways.

Edited February 26, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[m7zanr160s]

Routes in highway medians or to the sides of highways are pretty common elsewhere. In particular, Chicago does a pretty good job of integrating bus connections at its highway stations. They're not so great for TOD, but New York has never had a problem encouraging that sort of thing anyways.

TOD...?

[Union Tpke]

TOD...?

 

transit oriented development

[bobtehpanda]

TOD...?

 

In places that aren't New York, they make a big fuss about building mixed-used, medium/high-density developments next to stations that are easy to walk to, so that more people will take the train.

 

For obvious reasons, that's not something we really care about out here.

[Wallyhorse]

Bringing this over from the thread:

 

Just to recap what is going to happen in November:

Q will temp be cut back to 57th St - 7th Av at all times until the Second Av Subway is opened, which it will then be rerouted to it's new terminus 96th St - 2nd Av. The new stops and service pattern the Q line will serve are this:

--^Towards Coney Island - Stillwell Av: (Normal Service Pattern)^--

57th St - 7th Av N/R/W (Q trains stop on the express track in both directions.)

Lexington Av - 63rd St F ---- ( 4/5/6/N/R/W by walking to the Lex - 59th St station and using your metrocard.)
( Q trains now stop across the F platform on both levels.)

72nd St - 2nd Av (M15 SBS)

86th St - 2nd Av (M15 SBS)

96th St - 2nd Av (M15 SBS) (Terminus for all Q trains.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

N Service in Brooklyn and Queens will remain the same, but will become express in Manhattan only stopping at these stops:

Canal Street

34th St - Herald Square

Times Square - 42nd St

49th St

57th St - 7th Av

Lexington Av - 59 St

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

R service remains unchanged.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

W will be brought back to it's pre-2010 status to replace the Q in Queens and the N local in Manhattan. It's terminus in Queens will be Astoria - Ditmars and it's terminus in Manhattan will be Whitehall St.

 

This is what I think ought to be done so the can simply stay on the express track and cut down on the merge issues that create havoc with the whole line:

and are switched back to their pre-1987 routing, except:

The runs with the to 63rd/Lex and then goes with the via the 63rd Street tunnel to Queens, skipping Queens Plaza but making all other local stops on the line to 71-Continental as a 24/7 line.  Late nights, if warranted the can run local with the via 60th Street.

Because of this, the is extended one stop on weekdays to Queens Plaza (since during that time it would be the only train stopping on the local track northbound at QP, it can wait there and do the crossover when there are gaps in the and at QP).  Late nights and weekends, the goes back to running to 71st-Continental WHEN there are no G.O.'s where only one track is available in either direction (and a shuttle bus when needed to accommodate those riding between QP and other local stops in Queens) when because of that the G would need to terminate at Court Square or QP.

The returns to its pre-1987 routing of Ditmars to Astoria, however, when trains are heading to the yard, those are signed as and are basically extended runs like we saw prior to 2010 and will see again when that returns.  This runs 24/7.

The runs 6:00 AM-11:00 PM Monday-Friday, 7:30 AM-10:00 PM Saturday and 9:00 AM-8:00 PM Sundays between Whitehall and Astoria.  As noted, select trains would be signed as when such trains have to go to the yard and would essentially be trains extended to Brooklyn.

There also can be additional OOS transfers added between both Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza AND 39th Avenue (in this case) on the and and 36th Street (in this case) on the and .

This might be the way to cut down on merges outside of late nights and maybe make for a smoother ride overall on the Broadway line.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[LTA1992]

Minor tidbits.

 

 

Realistically speaking, because of right-of-way, it would probably be cheaper to route an east Bronx rail line either along the Amtrak corridor or along the Bruckner.

 

 

Why as far north as Allerton? Pelham Pkwy is currently a far busier corridor that has lots of room for a right-of-way.

A route using Pelham Parkway would completely miss Fordham Plaza if one takes the route via Third Avenue. That would reduce its usefulness in reducing any crowding on the Bx12. Taking the route up past Fordham Plaza up Webster, then cutting east across Bronx Park and sending it to Co-Op City via Allerton provides a direct route that takes passengers away from the Bx12. With a lot of the Bx12s passengers being those that transfer from the WPR and other north-south lines as well as Co-Op City, running the line through an area where a good chunk of the passengers originate would provide the most benefit. Not to mention that Allerton Avenue is wide enough to where a two track subway can be build at a shallow depth and buildings wouldn't need to be shored up. Traffic could easily be transferred to the surrounding streets as congestion isn't a problem until you hit Pelham Parkway.

 

Regarding using Amtrak ROW:

 

The areas that that route flows through have the WPR and Pelham Lines in walk-able distance on either side for the entirety of it's length.  Realistically, that would not provide the most in return for the investment. If the goal is to take the maximum amount of passengers away from the Lexington Avenue Line, then a line along Lafayette Avenue would do that by taking at least a third of the Pelham Line passengers away.

 

Lastly, on the topic of comparing 125th Street Crosstown buses to the buses that only sometimes traverse the same route as the , let me remind you, the is only paralleled by a bus on part of it's route. And by that, I mean they are different routes on some sections. 125th Street has the M60 SBS, M101, M100, and Bx15 running the entirety of the street. Not because it's a busy corridor, but because it's the most viable route for all of those buses to take. The M60 needs access to the Triboro Bridge. The Bx15 needs to access the 3rd Avenue and Willis Avenue Bridges which end near the eastern end of the street. The north-south streets that the M100 and M101 travel are disrupted and thus, they need to reach the west side. 125th Street just happens to be a major commercial district as a side effect and that commercial strip is only a mile long and is not the entirety of the Street. A subway NOT travelling along that street and instead, serving new areas will only bring more revenue to that street because there will be a new option to getting there. And I think it's the best option. Depriving miles of neighborhoods a new subway because one mile of commercial strip is popular would be criminal.

Edited February 27, 2016 by LTA1992

[NewFlyer 230]

 

Bringing this over from the thread:

 

 

This is what I think ought to be done so the can simply stay on the express track and cut down on the merge issues that create havoc with the whole line:

 

and are switched back to their pre-1987 routing, except:

 

The runs with the to 63rd/Lex and then goes with the via the 63rd Street tunnel to Queens, skipping Queens Plaza but making all other local stops on the line to 71-Continental as a 24/7 line. Late nights, if warranted the can run local with the via 60th Street.

 

Because of this, the is extended one stop on weekdays to Queens Plaza (since during that time it would be the only train stopping on the local track northbound at QP, it can wait there and do the crossover when there are gaps in the and at QP). Late nights and weekends, the goes back to running to 71st-Continental WHEN there are no G.O.'s where only one track is available in either direction (and a shuttle bus when needed to accommodate those riding between QP and other local stops in Queens) when because of that the G would need to terminate at Court Square or QP.

 

The returns to its pre-1987 routing of Ditmars to Astoria, however, when trains are heading to the yard, those are signed as and are basically extended runs like we saw prior to 2010 and will see again when that returns. This runs 24/7.

 

The runs 6:00 AM-11:00 PM Monday-Friday, 7:30 AM-10:00 PM Saturday and 9:00 AM-8:00 PM Sundays between Whitehall and Astoria. As noted, select trains would be signed as when such trains have to go to the yard and would essentially be trains extended to Brooklyn.

 

There also can be additional OOS transfers added between both Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza AND 39th Avenue (in this case) on the and and 36th Street (in this case) on the and .

 

This might be the way to cut down on merges outside of late nights and maybe make for a smoother ride overall on the Broadway line.

Here we go again with all of these different service patterns. While this may make sense to you, your average rider will get confused. There is a reason the MTA got rid of the double letters and all those special service patterns in the early 80's.

[bobtehpanda]

A route using Pelham Parkway would completely miss Fordham Plaza if one takes the route via Third Avenue. That would reduce its usefulness in reducing any crowding on the Bx12. Taking the route up past Fordham Plaza up Webster, then cutting east across Bronx Park and sending it to Co-Op City via Allerton provides a direct route that takes passengers away from the Bx12. With a lot of the Bx12s passengers being those that transfer from the WPR and other north-south lines as well as Co-Op City, running the line through an area where a good chunk of the passengers originate would provide the most benefit. Not to mention that Allerton Avenue is wide enough to where a two track subway can be build at a shallow depth and buildings wouldn't need to be shored up. Traffic could easily be transferred to the surrounding streets as congestion isn't a problem until you hit Pelham Parkway.

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but how exactly would using Pelham preclude a station at Fordham Plaza? Fordham Rd/Pelham Pkwy intersect with Webster and Third to create Fordham Plaza, and the Bx15 currently uses Third to get to Fordham Plaza. It might be a little bit out of the way to then loop the line east, but the time savings over current bus trips would probably still be significant.

 

Pelham currently has significantly better bus ridership than Allerton, better train connections, and better destinations; a route serving Pelham would not necessarily exclude Co-op CIty either, since the Bx12 currently serves both Pelham and Co-op City.

Edited February 28, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[LTA1992]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but how exactly would using Pelham preclude a station at Fordham Plaza? Fordham Rd/Pelham Pkwy intersect with Webster and Third to create Fordham Plaza, and the Bx15 currently uses Third to get to Fordham Plaza. It might be a little bit out of the way to then loop the line east, but the time savings over current bus trips would probably still be significant.

 

Pelham currently has significantly better bus ridership than Allerton, better train connections, and better destinations; a route serving Pelham would not necessarily exclude Co-op CIty either, since the Bx12 currently serves both Pelham and Co-op City.

A Fordham Plaza station would need to sit on a large C-shaped curve as The block that Fordham Plaza sits is only about a half trains length.

 

A route along Pelham Parkway would, admittedly, have some benefits. But more than the destination than for those who need to get to work. The Bronx Zoo already has direct access at two ends from the White Plains Road Line. Then there's Yeshiva University, Jacobi Medical Center, and the Institute for Special Education.

 

A route Along Allerton Avenue would eliminate the need for a curve within the station at Fordham Plaza. The only differences in connection would be a lack of transfers to the Bx19 and the Dyre Avenue Line. Both, I believe, would have negligible impact on Bx12 crowding whether or not passengers were taken away. Direct access to Bronx Park and the Botanical Gardens would be provided and give people an option over the Bx26 which not only gets highly congested during Rush hours, it's subject to the massive traffic that comes on and off the Bronx River Parkway much like the Bx12. The difference being that Allerton Avenue traffic runs much slower due to a lack of additional lanes.

 

Allerton Avenue not only provides more access to more residents, but access to more public schools as well. Seven via Allerton Avenue as opposed to four. In terms of public housing, the Alletron Avenue route would serve more. In the case of Pelham Gardens, it's equal distance between the two alignments.

 

I'm strictly going off who would most benefit with a new line. As the needs of the people are paramount to me. Yeah, you could duplicate the Bx12 and take passengers off that way, but then you'd need to get rid of SBS which would hurt riders heading past Fordham Plaza.

With the use of Allerton Avenue, you can keep SBS and still reduce passenger congestion on the Bx12 since a lot of those passengers are those transferring anyway.

Edited February 28, 2016 by LTA1992

[Wallyhorse]

Here we go again with all of these different service patterns. While this may make sense to you, your average rider will get confused. There is a reason the MTA got rid of the double letters and all those special service patterns in the early 80's.

The alternative would be to have the and in this case all go to 179th Street, which might not be the worst thing since you can always in that scenario move a local to the express after Parsons Boulevard in the event of a conga line plus the would be express on its full route. 

[bobtehpanda]

A Fordham Plaza station would need to sit on a large C-shaped curve as The block that Fordham Plaza sits is only about a half trains length.

 

A route along Pelham Parkway would, admittedly, have some benefits. But more than the destination than for those who need to get to work. The Bronx Zoo already has direct access at two ends from the White Plains Road Line. Then there's Yeshiva University, Jacobi Medical Center, and the Institute for Special Education.

 

A route Along Allerton Avenue would eliminate the need for a curve within the station at Fordham Plaza. The only differences in connection would be a lack of transfers to the Bx19 and the Dyre Avenue Line. Both, I believe, would have negligible impact on Bx12 crowding whether or not passengers were taken away. Direct access to Bronx Park and the Botanical Gardens would be provided and give people an option over the Bx26 which not only gets highly congested during Rush hours, it's subject to the massive traffic that comes on and off the Bronx River Parkway much like the Bx12. The difference being that Allerton Avenue traffic runs much slower due to a lack of additional lanes.

 

Allerton Avenue not only provides more access to more residents, but access to more public schools as well. Seven via Allerton Avenue as opposed to four. In terms of public housing, the Alletron Avenue route would serve more. In the case of Pelham Gardens, it's equal distance between the two alignments. 

I'm strictly going off who would most benefit with a new line. As the needs of the people are paramount to me. Yeah, you could duplicate the Bx12 and take passengers off that way, but then you'd need to get rid of SBS which would hurt riders heading past Fordham Plaza.

With the use of Allerton Avenue, you can keep SBS and still reduce passenger congestion on the Bx12 since a lot of those passengers are those transferring anyway.

 

Subway and SBS are not necessarily exclusive. The M15 is not about to lose SBS status in December 2016. The B44 has a subway running along the middle third of its length.

 

As far as curves go, that depends on how the tunnels are aligned and how you site the station. A station either at the southern end of Fordham Plaza, or on Pelham Pkwy, would not need to be on a curve. If you were to use Washington Av to connect Third and Pelham, you would not need a curve within the station.

Edited February 28, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[LTA1992]

Subway and SBS are not necessarily exclusive. The M15 is not about to lose SBS status in December 2016. The B44 has a subway running along the middle third of its length.

 

As far as curves go, that depends on how the tunnels are aligned and how you site the station. A station either at the southern end of Fordham Plaza, or on Pelham Pkwy, would not need to be on a curve. If you were to use Washington Av to connect Third and Pelham, you would not need a curve within the station.

True true. I guess both can be considered. You know, I think I may have unknowingly adopted a similar system to Brussels where Metro Lines and Tram Lines can't overlap too much or the tram gets axed.

 

Based on SAS being extended northward, then yeah, I would accept a Pelham Parkway Alignment on the grounds that you could build the line tunnels right under the pedestrian malls, therefore beautifying the boulevard further.

 

I forget that the Allerton Avenue alignment is based on my personal First Avenue Subway proposal.

Edited February 28, 2016 by LTA1992

[Union Tpke]

 

 

Important message.... All posting on new subway projects by East New York suspeded immediately.

 

See thread http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/29211-mta-bus-operations-fleet-depots/

 

 

[Mysterious2train]

MTA is looking to award contracts for preliminary work on Phase 2:

 

Press Release: MTA Begins Procurements to Extend Second Avenue Subway to East Harlem

 

Contracts Advertised for Design, Environmental and Community Outreach Work  

 

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has begun procuring key services necessary for Phase 2 of the Second Avenue Subway, which will extend the subway project to East Harlem in Manhattan. MTA Capital Construction is placing advertisements for Requests for Proposals (RFPs) for the first three contracts, which include design, environmental and community outreach services. Phase 2 will stretch north and west from Second Avenue and E. 96th Street to Lexington Avenue and E. 125th St., and includes three new stations at 106th Street, 116th Street and 125th and Lexington Avenue.

“Our goal is to fast-track Phase 2 to every extent possible, and if these efforts to speed up the project timetable are successful, the MTA will amend our Capital Program and seek additional funds to begin heavy construction sooner,” said MTA Chairman and CEO Thomas F. Prendergast. “With the opening of first phase of the Second Avenue Subway planned for the end of this year, we are taking steps to ensure a seamless transition to the next phase of work ahead.”

Phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway project is expected to open this December with three new stations at 72nd, 86th and 96th Streets and an expanded station at 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue, currently used by the F train. Once service begins, the Q Train will operate on the Second Avenue line.

“These design and environmental consulting contracts will enable us to take the next steps toward construction of the next phase of the Second Avenue Subway,” said MTA Capital Construction President Michael Horodniceanu. “The community outreach contract will help ensure that community members are kept informed and their feedback is taken into account every step of the way.”

The largest of the contracts is for an engineering and design consultant. It includes the update of the preliminary engineering design to reflect current design and operational criteria of MTA New York City Transit. The winning bidder also will provide technical information to support the supplemental environmental review process, prepare the final design of the construction contracts and provide technical services to support construction.

The winning bidder for the environmental consulting contract will provide environmental engineering, scientific, technical and analytical services to complete the necessary environmental documentation required for this phase of the project from extended preliminary engineering through construction.

The final RFP includes community outreach services for Phase 2. The consultant for this contract will assist in the development, implementation and management of a community relations and outreach program and provide staff for a Community Information Center. Additionally, the consultant will be responsible for providing graphics support, developing content and delivering flyers, newsletters and other notices, and assist in addressing community concerns raised by community members and businesses and soliciting their input.

The review process for all three RFPs will be accelerated with contracts expected to be awarded this summer.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[Wallyhorse]

Looks like Phase 2 may actually get built, contrary to what some think.

[Lance]

I don't doubt we'll see Phase II. After all, a large chunk of the tunneling has already been completed. It's just a matter of connecting the sections and extending the line to 125th Street. What I'm waiting for is the rest of the line to materialize.

[Around the Horn]

MTA is looking to award contracts for preliminary work on Phase 2:

 

Press Release: MTA Begins Procurements to Extend Second Avenue Subway to East Harlem

The MTA still never learns...

 

Take a year off and study extending the line into the Bronx to 3 Av-149 Street or even just build to 116 Street for now and then take a look at it.

 

The Bronx elected officials should be going bonkers like how the East Harlem ones went nuts...

 

They should also start work on Phase 3 at the same time...

Edited March 4, 2016 by Around the Horn

[jon2305]

Who's to say SAS Phase III would happen in any of our lifetimes.

[bobtehpanda]

The MTA still never learns...

 

Take a year off and study extending the line into the Bronx to 3 Av-149 Street or even just build to 116 Street for now and then take a look at it.

 

The Bronx elected officials should be going bonkers like how the East Harlem ones went nuts...

 

They should also start work on Phase 3 at the same time...

It would take more than a year; the DEIS and FEIS were separated by five years. I don't think anyone wants five additional years of planning time.

[LTA1992]

Who's to say SAS Phase III would happen in any of our lifetimes.

That's no reason to start the work. This is the most progress any version of the Second Avenue Line has ever had. Even if it's only one part open, that's one section closer to full line completion.

 

 

...No matter how limited that line is.

[NewFlyer 230]

I don't doubt we'll see Phase II. After all, a large chunk of the tunneling has already been completed. It's just a matter of connecting the sections and extending the line to 125th Street. What I'm waiting for is the rest of the line to materialize.

How much of this tunnel is complete? I heard that it started past 96th street.

[Around the Horn]

How much of this tunnel is complete? I heard that it started past 96th street.

Last I heard it was 99th to 105th and somewhere around 116th.

[MysteriousBtrain]

The MTA is trying to prepare the bid for phrase II now:

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/mta-ready-start-avenue-subway-phase-2-article-1.2553445

[Mysterious2train]

How much of this tunnel is complete? I heard that it started past 96th street.

 

Two sections of tunnel in East Harlem built in the 1970s:

 

First segment is from 99 St to 105 St; this section is already connected to the Phase 1 tunnels and has track, signals and other infrastructure and will be used to store trainsets during Phase 1.

 

Second segment is from 110 St to 120 St. It will have to be partially demolished and rebuilt to make room for a station at 116 St, since the 1970s plans (and the tunnel segment) did not include a station at 116 St.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[Lance]

Second segment is from 110 St to 120 St. It will have to be partially demolished and rebuilt to make room for a station at 116 St, since the 1970s plans (and the tunnel segment) did not include a station at 116 St.

Yeah, after the proposed 106 Street station, it was nonstop to 125 Street on the '68 version of 2nd Avenue.