Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Around the Horn]

Umm interesting never saw this that's at least 75-80 feet. I was wondering if that area could support a deep station answered!!. At that depth you could clear the Riverbed without any grade on the Manhattan side. 

Same thing with Hudson Yards...

[RailRunRob]

Same thing with Hudson Yards...

You really have to understand what that station clears to appreciate it. Besides multiple tunnels both Rail and vehicle. It clears the basement of the 800 foot skyscraper. It's an awesome station.

[Around the Horn]

Based on current plans for the 2nd Avenue line, from the Houston St station, the tunnels will curve slightly east while diving down to avoid the 6th Avenue-Jamaica connection tracks and dip down to a deeper level to hit Grand St. Mind you, immediately after the 6th Avenue tracks leave Grand St, they turn east for the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. Also keep in mind that Chrystie St is not that long. While it's probably not impossible to build a connection between 2nd Avenue and the bridge, it would be an engineering headache to make such a connection, not to mention the hairpin turns required for said connection

So what are the levels down there? I assume its on top of and then on top of ?

[RailRunRob]

So what are the levels down there? I assume its on top of and then on top of ?

From what @Bob posted the line is slated to cross below every crossing besides   and Amtrak. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by RailRunRob

[Eric B]

Lex-63 was built as an island station from the jump, with plans for extensions already in mind. Grand St wasn't.

What I always heard was that Grand was planned for four tracks, and there's hollow space behind the walls.

(so the cut and cover disruptions would likely be in the areas leading to the station).

[Around the Horn]

What I always heard was that Grand was planned for four tracks, and there's hollow space behind the walls.

(so the cut and cover disruptions would likely be in the areas leading to the station).

Raskin's book supports that theory however the hollow space is only for the rest of the platform. There is no evidence of room for trackways.

[bobtehpanda]

What I always heard was that Grand was planned for four tracks, and there's hollow space behind the walls.

(so the cut and cover disruptions would likely be in the areas leading to the station).

 

According to the FEIS, even if that was true, the station would have to be significantly enlarged anyways to accommodate the expected volume of people.

 

[Javier]

Actually, why not extend the Nassau Street line in Manhattan up from Bowery to 72 St - 2nd Avenue and have the and terminate at Broad? It could work if Broad St is demolished and rebuilt with a 4 platform 6 track configuration or a 2 platform 3 track configuration,

[Javier]

And then it could be extended down into Brooklyn via the new Nassau tunnel that has 3 tracks, while the services for the and end at South 4 Street. South 4 St goes under rehab and becomes a functional terminus, with Jamiaca bound trains leaving on tracks 2 & 3 while 125 St bound trains leave on track 1 & 4.

[bobtehpanda]

Actually, why not extend the Nassau Street line in Manhattan up from Bowery to 72 St - 2nd Avenue and have the and terminate at Broad? It could work if Broad St is demolished and rebuilt with a 4 platform 6 track configuration or a 2 platform 3 track configuration,

 

 

And then it could be extended down into Brooklyn via the new Nassau tunnel that has 3 tracks, while the services for the and end at South 4 Street. South 4 St goes under rehab and becomes a functional terminus, with Jamiaca bound trains leaving on tracks 2 & 3 while 125 St bound trains leave on track 1 & 4.

 

The MTA's FEIS explores that as well:

 

[Javier]

What about my second idea about going into Brooklyn just without the and ?

[Wallyhorse]

Also as previously said, assuming the Water Street option is done, you can extend the to Brooklyn with a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would connect to what currently is the Transit Museum at Court Street (turned back into a regular subway station) and then join the Fulton Street line at Hoyt-Schermerhorn before becoming the Fulton Local to Euclid Avenue (extended late nights to Lefferts Boulevard).  As previously noted, this would allow:

The and to BOTH run express on Fulton (with the at all times to the Rockaways on likely a 4/3 split between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park with a few short turns at Howard Beach-JFK and the at all times it's running to Lefferts).

No merge/unmerge of the to/from the east (railroad south) of Hoyt-Schermerhorn since the would come in on the as-present unused wall track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (the and would open on both sides at Hoyt-Schermerhorn in this example to allow for transfers to both the and across the platform). 

In fact, if possible I'd even consider building the Schermerhorn Tunnel/first part of Phase 4 ahead of the rest so when Phase 4 is being worked on, you possibly already have Hanover Square and Seaport (that can be a temporary terminal if the Schermerhorn tunnel is built first) in place in Phase 4.  

[Lance]

The MTA's FEIS explores that as well:

 

<pic removed>

That's probably for the best anyhow. We don't need another high frequency line running through DeKalb Junction.

 

@Wallyhorse: We get it; you like this idea. You don't need to post it every time the subject comes up.

[bobtehpanda]

What about my second idea about going into Brooklyn just without the and ?

 

Well, first of all extending it to Brooklyn changes nothing that was in the original FEIS. As an addendum though, South 4th St is actually north of the Nassau St line, so I don't even know how that would work.

[Caelestor]

Actually, why not extend the Nassau Street line in Manhattan up from Bowery to 72 St - 2nd Avenue and have the and terminate at Broad? It could work if Broad St is demolished and rebuilt with a 4 platform 6 track configuration or a 2 platform 3 track configuration,

 

There's 3 options for potentially connecting Nassau St to SAS:

• via Delancey St: It's unlikely that SAS would stop at Bowery station itself. More importantly, there'd be no transfer at Grand St, which is needed to divert  riders away from the at Bleecker St. 
• via Canal St: The former Nassau St Loop / Manhattan Bridge tracks would be connected to SAS, preserving a transfer at Grand St. Unfortunately, either the or would have to be cut short at Chambers St, unless the current track configuration is significantly altered.
• via Park Row: My favorite of the 3 options would redirect the SAS below Chatham Sq to Fulton St, which is the best transfer point for Brooklyn trains in Lower Manhattan. The issue is that there's no provision for a connection to the Nassau St line, so construction would probably force the to terminate at Broad St for a while. There's also the problem of inevitably reducing service to Lower Manhattan, but I'd imagine most riders in Brooklyn want the / anyway.

In any case, it's unlikely that the Nassau St option will be considered, but the Water St option is still several decades off, so it's probably best to shelve the discussion since it's not going anywhere. I'm more interested in a new service to Queens via Roosevelt Island myself.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Caelestor

[Jcb]

Personally I think that phase 3 should have 4 tracks and phase 4 should be split. Have upper Manhattan service run express, with stops at 55, 42, 14 and then splitting off at Grand, making stops at Chambers and Fulton Streets, and then heading into Brooklyn via a new tunnel that connects to the Fulton St Line outside of Hoyt-Schermerhorn, service would then run local to Euclid.

The Manhattan branch (locals from Queens) should terminate at Hanover square with provisions for extensions through Montague or to SI.

[Around the Horn]

The state will pay $1.5 billion of the cost of Phase 2.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ave-subway-additional-1b-state-funding-article-1.2584129?utm_content=buffer1f0df&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw\

 

ALBANY — The new state budget will include an additional $1 billion for the ongoing Second Ave. subway project in New York City, the Daily News has learned.

A source said Gov. Cuomo successfully pushed for the additional funding during the state budget negotiations.

The extra money for the Second Ave. subway would bring the total funding in the budget for the project to $1.535 billion.

The first phase of the project, which added three new stations and expanded another, is set to go online in December.

The funding from the still-emerging state budget would be earmarked for the coming second phase of the project that will extend the subway north from Second Ave. and 96th Street to 125th St. and Lexington Ave., with the creation of three new stations.

It was unclear as of Thursday whether the $1.5 billion for the project in the new budget will be cash, borrowed, or a combination of both. A source said the funding will be spread out over several years.

[bobtehpanda]

So are we just going to have one announcement for every piece of the Capital Plan Cuomo thinks is worth funding? This is gonna be fun.

[Lance]

You know it.   Every good thing that happens with the MTA comes directly from the office of Andrew M. Cuomo. The reactivation of the line this fall will undoubtedly be preceded by such a statement.

[Union Tpke]

You know it.   Every good thing that happens with the MTA comes directly from the office of Andrew M. Cuomo. The reactivation of the line this fall will undoubtedly be preceded by such a statement.

 

Thanks to extra funding added to the MTA's Capital Program with the help of Governor Andrew Cuomo, the will be able to be reactivated....

[GojiMet86]

The new South Ferry is brought to you by the governor Cuomo.

[Wallyhorse]

You know it.   Every good thing that happens with the MTA comes directly from the office of Andrew M. Cuomo. The reactivation of the line this fall will undoubtedly be preceded by such a statement.

Well, Cuomo may still be thinking ahead to a Presidential run in 2020 or '24, so......

[Trainmaster5]

Well, Cuomo may still be thinking ahead to a Presidential run in 2020 or '24, so......

How many politicians from either party have ever made a run for President by pointing out their connections to the Board of Transportation, the New York City Transit Authority, or the ? It may be a + or - to a downstate resident of New York but it's not something to tout to the national Democratic or Republican parties. Most voters across the US have no use for the , PATH, SEPTA,BART, or the DC Metro experience. I'd bet money that experience running any state DOT counts for more nationwide. I read the NY papers  daily but I also check out papers from NC, VA, SC, and DC on a regular basis and I'd recommend  keeping the rail fan/bus enthusiasm tempered when dealing with national politics. Sit in a Denny's,Golden Corral, Hardees, Waffle House or Bob Evans south of NJ or west of the Mississippi and talk transit with a group of your fellow fans. The people around you will look at you and the others as if you had HIV, TB, or leprosy. I've done it with family and friends a few times. Change the subject to highways and watch/feel the change in the atmosphere. Transit is a local matter mainly confined to urban areas and is not a national concern in my experience. Carry on.

[Wallyhorse]

How many politicians from either party have ever made a run for President by pointing out their connections to the Board of Transportation, the New York City Transit Authority, or the ? It may be a + or - to a downstate resident of New York but it's not something to tout to the national Democratic or Republican parties. Most voters across the US have no use for the , PATH, SEPTA,BART, or the DC Metro experience. I'd bet money that experience running any state DOT counts for more nationwide. I read the NY papers  daily but I also check out papers from NC, VA, SC, and DC on a regular basis and I'd recommend  keeping the rail fan/bus enthusiasm tempered when dealing with national politics. Sit in a Denny's,Golden Corral, Hardees, Waffle House or Bob Evans south of NJ or west of the Mississippi and talk transit with a group of your fellow fans. The people around you will look at you and the others as if you had HIV, TB, or leprosy. I've done it with family and friends a few times. Change the subject to highways and watch/feel the change in the atmosphere. Transit is a local matter mainly confined to urban areas and is not a national concern in my experience. Carry on.

That is all true (especially under normal circumstances), however, as we are also seeing this year, if you have tight races or where you are potentially looking at a brokered convention, the big urban areas like New York and LA may actually (for once) play a big factor and that is where transit issues could play a factor.  

[Around the Horn]

 The people around you will look at you and the others as if you had HIV, TB, or leprosy. I've done it with family and friends a few times. Change the subject to highways and watch/feel the change in the atmosphere.

Oh, yes. This one is with out a doubt true. I was talking to my cousin's friend's mother about the MOM (Middlesex-Ocean-Monmouth) route (they live near Matawan). Once I told her that they wanted to take back the rail trail (which they own and are leasing) she was appalled. Meanwhile, not even five minutes earlier, she was complaining how the Garden State was packed and how the only train out there is the NJCL.