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rfortyslant

The 12 train

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Im not sure that ANYONE has ever seen these train roll signs. you see there are number trains (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7) and the discontinued (9). but there was a 11 and 12 train before in like 1960's but i have never see any thing like this. an r62A that wasnt even made in the 1960's. THESE WERE NOT PHOTOSHOPPED

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/R62A_Showing_12_Sign.jpg

12 train

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NYC_Subway_11_Train.jpg

11 train

there was a red 13 train. same as the (1)(2)(3) trains and 8 and 20 trains were green as the (4)(5) and (6) trains.

 

Is it true these trains were used arbitrarily for new track services?

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Well, the Wikipedia article that those pics are on (B)) says they are. Supposedly they are for express service; for example the (11) would "replace" the <7>. I think (8), (10), and (12) correspond to an express (4), an express (5), and the <6>. I have heard of people with hex keys rolling the signs to these numbers and snapping photos of them, just to prove they exist.

 

And I don't think there have been double digit IRT lines, ever. There was a previous (8) line, the Third Avenue Elevated, but it was never marked on trains.

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When you see those, its usually a TA worker that wants to mess with railfans and see their reactions. B)

 

Or a railfan doing something he is not suppose to do....

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When you see those, its usually a TA worker that wants to mess with railfans and see their reactions. B)

 

I'd love to see an "(11)" pull into Queensboro Plaza and see how the people react.

 

"OMFG, what is this new (11) train?"

 

You see like no one on, except the subway buffs who know it's a <7>. Especially since the people don't listen to the conductor scream, "61 St/Woodside is the next stop!" B)

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If memory serves me correctly it goes like this

(8) = Exp (6) which would replace <6>

(11) = Exp (7) which would replace <7>

(12) = Exp (2) (Bronx) with service to Dyre Ave

(13) = (3) which would go to 137 street or Flatbush

(14) = (4) bronx exp or (4) to Flatbush/New Lots Ave

 

As you can see these routes are pretty much redundant services of exisisting service which is why they are not used

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If memory serves me correctly it goes like this

(8) = Exp (6) which would replace <6>

(11) = Exp (7) which would replace <7>

(12) = Exp (2) (Bronx) with service to Dyre Ave

(13) = (3) which would go to 137 street or Flatbush

(14) = (4) bronx exp or (4) to Flatbush/New Lots Ave

 

As you can see these routes are pretty much redundant services of exisisting service which is why they are not used

 

i thougth the 2 went up to flatbush? :confused:

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If memory serves me correctly it goes like this

(8) = Exp (6) which would replace <6>

(11) = Exp (7) which would replace <7>

(12) = Exp (2) (Bronx) with service to Dyre Ave

(13) = (3) which would go to 137 street or Flatbush

(14) = (4) bronx exp or (4) to Flatbush/New Lots Ave

 

As you can see these routes are pretty much redundant services of exisisting service which is why they are not used

 

Wait a sec... (8) (10) and (12) are green. Doesn't that mean they go down the Lex and would correspond to the (4)(5)<6>, not necessarily in that order? If they do that means the (13) (14) (15) correspond to the (1)(2)(3) and would be red.

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what color was 15?

 

I think it was a shade of blue if any color (may have been OLD pre-color), but i don't really remember, i read about it on forgotten-ny.com when the guy talks about when they got rid of the double character route designations. I will look for it right now.

 

- Andy

 

photo courtesy of http://www.thejoekorner.com

 

r1bmt15.gif

 

I found it on nycsubway.org.......

 

"The Chrystie Street connection and the service changes that occurred because of it formed the backbone of most of the lines we know today. The following IND lines were discontinued:

 

BB 6th Ave local

D 6th Ave / Houston Express via Culver to Coney Island

F 6th Ave / Houston Express terminating at Broadway -- Lafayette (or short turns at 34th St)

The following BMT routes were discontinued:

 

QT Broadway/Brighton Local via the Montague Street tunnel

QB Broadway/Brighton Local via the Manhattan Bridge

#15, Jamaica Express

Q, Broadway/Brighton Express

T, Broadway/West End Express"

 

http://nycsubway.org/articles/historyindependentsubway.html Between half way and a 3rd of the way from the bottom.

 

I knew it was either the old second ave el, or the current (E), but i couldn't remember which.

 

- Andy

Edited by metsfan
typo (was tired)

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Anyone got a hex key? :D

 

I have a rollsign key. Found it in times square on that ramp right in the middle of the station where the (B)(D)(F)(V) is one way, and the (N)(R)(W)(Q) and (S) is the other way. The ramp is near that wall that is glass block & the circular hole skylight is up to the sidewalk. No, i'm not going to give it to you, or use it to change the rollsigns. :P:D

 

- Andy

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Wait a sec... (8) (10) and (12) are green. Doesn't that mean they go down the Lex and would correspond to the (4)(5)<6>, not necessarily in that order? If they do that means the (13) (14) (15) correspond to the (1)(2)(3) and would be red.

 

There is no 15 for the IRT at all....the only 15 ever used was on the early days of the BMT Jamaica Line

 

the rollsign contains

 

 

(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)<6>(7)<7>(9) (10) (11) (12) (13)

(13) is the only double letter route in 7th Ave on the roll sign

(8)(10)(12) are green for Lexington Ave....which obviously makes me wrong about what I stated earlier in regards to (12),(14) supplementing the (2) & (4)...my apologies(im more of a commuter rail guy...lol)

there is no (14) on the rollsign at all

however there are unused signs thru-out the MTA which aren't on rollsigns and maps, but are available to be added at any time, which include

5-7av.png

12-7av.png

2-lex.png

14.png

 

alot of interesting info about signage can be found here

http://blake.prohosting.com/~tptsm/~bullets/1979/index.html

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They HAVE to put the 11 line into place, so people wont get confused with the express and local.

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They HAVE to put the 11 line into place, so people wont get confused with the express and local.

 

I don't know. It could just be me, but I don't like the idea of 2 characters to represent a train. I thought that policy was done after the double letters were eliminated. I like it one character, and I hope it stays that way

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If they put the 11 into place for <7>, then they would have to put the 8 into place for the <6>

 

actually, i think that's what those additional numbers are for...im assuming...its so they have the option to not have to use the same number for extended rush hour routes, like the (5) to brooklyn from dyre would be the (10) or something, or the 5 to Nereid Ave from Bowling Green would be the (12)...??? also keep in mind these double-digit numbers have never been in service on the IRT...ever!!!...I guess those extra numbers are there just incase any radical route changes ever take place, which I doubt will happen since the IRT design & routing is pretty simple...then again, with the MTA, you never know

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If they put the 11 into place for <7>, then they would have to put the 8 into place for the <6>

 

actually, i think that's what those additional numbers are for...im assuming...its so they have the option to not have to use the same number for extended rush hour routes, like the (5) to brooklyn from dyre would be the (10) or something, or the 5 to Nereid Ave from Bowling Green would be the (12)...??? also keep in mind these double-digit numbers have never been in service on the IRT...ever!!!...I guess those extra numbers are there just incase any radical route changes ever take place, which I doubt will happen since the IRT design & routing is pretty simple...then again, with the MTA, you never know

 

Well couple problems with that...first the NTT's that run on the (6) and <6> don't have an (8) program, so that's issue #1, a minor one though that could be overcome if they wanted to. Also on the (7)<7>, using the <11> would require crews to change signs at the terminals, plus there'd be confusion when trains were running local in the other direction during peak because the maps would show the <11> as express.

 

It could be done if they really wanted to, but there's no reason to. There's the whole "double letters/numbers" thing they want to avoid, and it goes back to the age old saying of "just because something's there doesn't mean it's got to be used" :P

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Well couple problems with that...first the NTT's that run on the (6) and <6> don't have an (8) program, so that's issue #1, a minor one though that could be overcome if they wanted to. Also on the (7)<7>, using the <11> would require crews to change signs at the terminals, plus there'd be confusion when trains were running local in the other direction during peak because the maps would show the <11> as express.

 

That would be kinda wierd... seeing (7) at one end of the train and (11) at the other... assuming the front end signs are not changed and the (11) runs peak direction only.

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That would be kinda wierd... seeing (7) at one end of the train and (11) at the other... assuming the front end signs are not changed and the (11) runs peak direction only.

 

I wouldn't mind riding a 7-11 train (as long as i got hot cocoa or a slurpee)! :P

 

- Andy

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There would still be confusion over if the train is a (7) or (11) for the EXACT SAME reason there is confusion over the (7) and <7>. Anyone care to guess why?

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There would still be confusion over if the train is a (7) or (11) for the EXACT SAME reason there is confusion over the (7) and <7>. Anyone care to guess why?

 

Because the flushing IRT line is purple, and the lex is green. People would be worried they were going to end up on the lex.

 

Stuff like this could totally go in the subway mysteries thread in the future! :(

 

- Andy

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well I personally think a different number would be better than a different shape...when people are in a rush all they see is (7) there not paying attention to weather its a diamond or not....at least with a different number they will know for a fact its an express train

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well I personally think a different number would be better than a different shape...when people are in a rush all they see is (7) there not paying attention to weather its a diamond or not....at least with a different number they will know for a fact its an express train

 

There are some people who never pay attention to anything. They won't know whether the (11) is express or local.

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There are some people who never pay attention to anything. They won't know whether the (11) is express or local.

 

yup thats the truth friend...

 

Had a lady ask me "WHAT TRAIN IS THIS?" one time while I was standing next to a BIG BRIGHT FRONT ROLLSIGN WITH A V ON IT, heh

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