Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

There wouldn't be any Manhattan portion.

That's absurd IMO. I'm sure you're well aware of the demographics in University Heights. It's like Santo Domingo #2. Those people all want to go to Washington Heights...

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Not wild about buses using Dyer to be honest. Experiencing what it's like on the X17J, I'd try to have routes avoid that street where possible.

So what would cover the northern part of Sedgwick then? The Bx32? (Shoot, at that point, you might as well just have the Bx3 terminate at the VA Hospital for an easy turnaround) I mean, it might be a good shortcut to get over to the  train, compared to the Bx1/2/10 that loop around the reservoir.

Dyer's rather tame to moderate during most parts of the day, it's only ridiculous during the rush..... Quite honestly, I wouldn't even have buses utilizing that side of 10th av (north of 34th) if there wasn't a ban on left turns onto 9th at 34th.... Otherwise buses would go 9th, 33rd, 10th, 34th...

Anyway, yes, a northern split of the Bx32 would serve it instead & would run up to 242nd for a connection to the Bee-Line buses.... Good point about the Bx3.

32 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's absurd IMO. I'm sure you're well aware of the demographics in University Heights. It's like Santo Domingo #2. Those people all want to go to Washington Heights...

Sure, I'm aware of the demographical makeup up there...... Which is part of the reason why I don't side w/ a Bx3/Bx13 combination, nor am I really proposing it actually go to Yankee Stadium.... What I'm saying is, the Bx3 does have a healthy intra-Bronx usage (much more so than the Bx13), and if the route were to be structured to run within the Bronx to run down to Yankee Stadium or whatever, I would not run it over the Bx13 up in High Bridge....

One thing I notice whenever I take the Bx3 or Bx36 from GWB into the Bronx, the moderate crowd that waits at that first stop off the bridge (Featherbed) tend to gun for the Bx3 over the Bx36..... I'm of the suspicion that some of those people are walking to that stop from the south (including having gotten off Bx11's & Bx35's right before they turn off for Manhattan), moreso than those folks living in the immediate vicinity of that stop....

To sum it up, I would leave the Bx3 [running to GWB], over [keeping it w/i the Bronx & using it to address that service gap along Jerome, south of 167th] I mentioned earlier....

Edited February 25, 2018 by B35 via Church

[Gotham Bus Co.]

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Northbound from High Bridge OTOH, buses would go Plimpton > E.L. Grant > University, en route to the current Bx3 routing in the Bronx....

That reminds me of the old Bx3/13 overnight combination bus that was killed off in 2010...   

 

- Southbound from 238 & Broadway via Bx3 south to G.W. Bridge, then via Bx13 south to Yankee Stadium.

- Northbound from Yankee Stadium via Bx13 to E. L. Grant Highway and then via Bx3 to 238 & Broadway.

- Anyone who wanted to ride from Ogden Avenue to Manhattan or from Manhattan to University Avenue had a long detour. 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 2/25/2018 at 7:37 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That reminds me of the old Bx3/13 overnight combination bus that was killed off in 2010...   

- Southbound from 238 & Broadway via Bx3 south to G.W. Bridge, then via Bx13 south to Yankee Stadium.

- Northbound from Yankee Stadium via Bx13 to E. L. Grant Highway and then via Bx3 to 238 & Broadway.

- Anyone who wanted to ride from Ogden Avenue to Manhattan or from Manhattan to University Avenue had a long detour. 

 

The only Bronx route that lost overnight service in 2010 was the Bx34: http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/part3.htm

I believe Bx3/13 overnight service was eliminated in 1995. I have an old 1993 map somewhere, and I can check if they had any special notation about any combination route. I think it would be reasonable to provide those areas with overnight service again.

[A Former New Yorker]

     M40 

Major Streets:West End Av,W 24th St,11th Av,10th Av,W 45th St 

Buses Run from Chelsea Piers Terminal used by the M23 to W 106 St/Broadway 

Buses run every 10 min weekdays and every 15 min Weekends 7 Min Rush Hour 

 

Bus Depot:MJQ 

 

[Future ENY OP]

4 hours ago, A Former New Yorker said:

     M40 

Major Streets:West End Av,W 24th St,11th Av,10th Av,W 45th St 

Buses Run from Chelsea Piers Terminal used by the M23 to W 106 St/Broadway 

Buses run every 10 min weekdays and every 15 min Weekends 7 Min Rush Hour 

 

Bus Depot:MJQ 

 

Too long and not enough of an market for this area. This area is already served by the M12 which is run by MJQ. It does an decent job but whatever.

With an POSSIBLE closure of Manhattanville. The whole division would be crazy meaning that MJQ may absorb most of their routes.  Honestly, hope MHV doesn't close. 

[Orion6025]

22 hours ago, A Former New Yorker said:

     M40 

Major Streets:West End Av,W 24th St,11th Av,10th Av,W 45th St 

Buses Run from Chelsea Piers Terminal used by the M23 to W 106 St/Broadway 

Buses run every 10 min weekdays and every 15 min Weekends 7 Min Rush Hour 

 

Bus Depot:MJQ 

 

Use the m11. It exists for a reason.

if easy 11 ave access means that much to you, use the m12, then m57, then m5...

[Q43LTD]

On 3/11/2018 at 12:54 PM, A Former New Yorker said:

     M40 

Major Streets:West End Av,W 24th St,11th Av,10th Av,W 45th St 

Buses Run from Chelsea Piers Terminal used by the M23 to W 106 St/Broadway 

Buses run every 10 min weekdays and every 15 min Weekends 7 Min Rush Hour 

 

Bus Depot:MJQ 

 

Not necessary. There's the M11 and the M12. Possibly the M104. I highly doubt West End Av needs a bus north of 72

[B35 via Church]

On 3/11/2018 at 12:54 PM, A Former New Yorker said:

     M40 

Major Streets:West End Av,W 24th St,11th Av,10th Av,W 45th St 

Buses Run from Chelsea Piers Terminal used by the M23 to W 106 St/Broadway 

Buses run every 10 min weekdays and every 15 min Weekends 7 Min Rush Hour

To accomplish what purpose exactly?

[BreeddekalbL]

Where do we move the m4 and the q32 since these guys are trying to strong arm the buses out of there

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/will-the-mta-make-room-for-a-pedestrian-friendly-32nd-street/

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Where do we move the m4 and the q32 since these guys are trying to strong arm the buses out of there

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/will-the-mta-make-room-for-a-pedestrian-friendly-32nd-street/

If you actually read the article, they're only moving the bus stops.

That being said, I don't understand why the loop is so large. Why not just do 37 St > 7th Av > 31 St > 8th Av > 36 St? If you put the bus stops on 31 St that ends up being even closer to Penn Station than the current bus stops, and you also avoid most of the mess of Herald Square.

[B35 via Church]

Why don't they just have the Q32 & the M4 terminate & take on the exact same turnaround scenario on that end of the route w/ the M5 already..... That's what I believe it's going to come down to anyway.... Buses will have the whole eastern side of 6th av b/w 31st & 32nd & the whole southern side of that short block (32nd), opp. Greeley Sq [since 32nd/broadway is already a stop on the NB Q32/M4]....

[Orion6025]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That being said, I don't understand why the loop is so large.

Probably because when they rerouted them off 34 Street, they didn't try adjusting the 32 street end.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Question: Is there anything that can be done to the M22? 

Service is only being reduced more and more, and service is getting closer to resembling a coverage route. The Madison Street portion still does rather decent, but the other portions tend to lack ridership except for certain hours. 

[Q43LTD]

I believe so. Before 2010, it had overnight service. I wouldn't restore the owl service, but at least expand the hours, especially on weekends.

[Orion6025]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Question: Is there anything that can be done to the M22? 

Service is only being reduced more and more, and service is getting closer to resembling a coverage route. The Madison Street portion still does rather decent, but the other portions tend to lack ridership except for certain hours. 

Not much frankly. The Chambers Street segment leaves much to be desired and that's one of the biggest places where it's getting killed IMO. In theory it could serve as a short shuttle for businesspeople coming out of the subways to get them quickly to the WFC (and in a way it does; I've seen M22s with a mainly full seated loads with standees in the morning rush), but it just doesn't fulfill the role well. Chambers Street is quite a mess in terms of cars blicking the box, double parked trucks, and just its narrowness in general making it difficult for buses to navigate around all the blockages. And in general, traffic on Chmabers just flows poorly. Furthermore, the sheer lack of frequency makes it unappealing. I feel like for patrons coming from subways, it's one of those I'll-ride-it-if-it's-here kind of routes since it would only save them energy/a walk, not timr (since frankly the bus is not much faster than walking)...

Given how the M9 (appears to) have higher frequencies, as well as the fact that it serves more areas on the LES and WFC areas, perhaps it's cannabilizing from the M22 ridership overall (but particularly in the chambers street segment).

Frankly I would use it every day, but the bus is so infrequent that I feel it is useless to ride if I have to wait 10-15 minutes...

At best, an experiment with better frequencies coupled with better traffic control on Chambers from Centre Street to Greenwich Street, and possibly at the North End Avenue segment (tight turns) could help but in general the M22 just seems like a low-ridership route to begin with. All it has going or it is the eastern end and the WFC terminal (to an extent).

[B35 via Church]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 4:02 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Question: Is there anything that can be done to the M22? 

Service is only being reduced more and more, and service is getting closer to resembling a coverage route. The Madison Street portion still does rather decent, but the other portions tend to lack ridership except for certain hours. 

Yeah, combine it with the B39.... smh.... I remember several people agreeing with the idea when I used to lurk on RD (before I became a member on there).... Ideas like that is what eventually led me to doing so; you had as many people there basing ideas strictly off the map alone; talking about as soon as it comes off the bridge, turn left onto the FDR to run over the M22 route & how much ridership a route like that would bring in & what not..... This was before the advent of google maps, and being that I was someone that actually rode these routes, it came off as nothing short of ignorant (as, as you know, the Willy B is above the FDR).....

Anyway, sans anyone coming from BPC, too many people on the western end of M22 walk the route, instead of waiting for the bus..... Done it many times myself....

I don't see it as a coverage route, but I can see it being reduced to coverage headways, unfortunately.... You really only need the M22 for the eastern portion nowadays (meaning, at & east of Park Row); they may as well have the M9 head to/from BPC via Chambers instead of via Warren/Murray.... As was said, the M9 is the prevalent route between the 2 routes in question & I don't see anything really changing that (short of bastardizing the M9 somehow)......

While the M15 to Park Row was popular enough when it existed, I would have liked to have seen how it would have fared if it ran to Grand/FDR.....

Edited April 4, 2018 by B35 via Church

[checkmatechamp13]

On 4/4/2018 at 2:45 PM, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, combine it with the B39.... smh.... I remember several people agreeing with the idea when I used to lurk on RD (before I became a member on there).... Ideas like that is what eventually led me to doing so; you had as many people there basing ideas strictly off the map alone; talking about as soon as it comes off the bridge, turn left onto the FDR to run over the M22 route & how much ridership a route like that would bring in & what not..... This was before the advent of google maps, and being that I was someone that actually rode these routes, it came off as nothing short of ignorant (as, as you know, the Willy B is above the FDR).....

Anyway, sans anyone coming from BPC, too many people on the western end of M22 walk the route, instead of waiting for the bus..... Done it many times myself....

I don't see it as a coverage route, but I can see it being reduced to coverage headways, unfortunately.... You really only need the M22 for the eastern portion nowadays (meaning, at & east of Park Row); they may as well have the M9 head to/from BPC via Chambers instead of via Warren/Murray.... As was said, the M9 is the prevalent route between the 2 routes in question & I don't see anything really changing that (short of bastardizing the M9 somehow)......

While the M15 to Park Row was popular enough when it existed, I would have liked to have seen how it would have fared if it ran to Grand/FDR.....

So would you have the M9 cover the M22 portion in BPC and continue down to Albany Street, or just terminate at Vesey Street? And would you have the M22 cut back to City Hall in that case?

I remember waiting with a woman at Murray & West Broadway (coming from the for either the M9 or Downtown Connect shuttle, and she brought up the point that the M20/M22/Downtown Connect shuttle all loop through Vesey Street whereas the M9 runs straight down West Street, and having been on a decent amount of X7/9/10B trips through that area, I would be inclined to agree with having at least one route skip that section and run straight to the southern part of BPC)

On a side note, should anything be done about the M22 routing via Frankfort Street/Worth Street (like having it run via the M9/103 route through City Hall Park or maybe run down Centre Street->Worth Street heading eastbound so it serves that side of the park consistently without having to backtrack down Park Row like it does now). 

Edited April 6, 2018 by checkmatechamp13

[B35 via Church]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:25 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

So would you have the M9 cover the M22 portion in BPC and continue down to Albany Street, or just terminate at Vesey Street? And would you have the M22 cut back to City Hall in that case?

I remember waiting with a woman at Murray & West Broadway (coming from the for either the M9 or Downtown Connect shuttle, and she brought up the point that the M20/M22/Downtown Connect shuttle all loop through Vesey Street whereas the M9 runs straight down West Street, and having been on a decent amount of X7/9/10B trips through that area, I would be inclined to agree with having at least one route skip that section and run straight to the southern part of BPC)

On a side note, should anything be done about the M22 routing via Frankfort Street/Worth Street (like having it run via the M9/103 route through City Hall Park or maybe run down Centre Street->Worth Street heading eastbound so it serves that side of the park consistently without having to backtrack down Park Row like it does now). 

Yeah, I would have the M9 cover the north & the south ends of BPC; don't like the idea of having the M20 being the sole route covering any/either end of BPC.... In turn, the M22 would end at City Hall w/ the M103... I would also expand its footprint in the LES a little bit by having it end w/ the M14D @ the Baruch Houses (Delancey/Columbia)....

[Another option altogether would be to cut the M9 back to Park Row & have the M22 extended to serve both ends of BPC, ending where the current M9 does along S. End av..... In either plan though, nothing would end at Vesey/N. End....]

As for having M22's run via Frankfort & via Worth, I would leave EB buses utilizing Frankfort to get to Madison via St. James.... The WB buses utilizing Worth OTOH I would do away with; just have 'em parallel the M9/M103 via E. Broadway to Park Row & call it a day.... The guards opening/closing the barricades won't like the extra work, but it is what it is..... The Worth > Lafayette routing is only good for getting west of City Hall.... 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 4/1/2018 at 4:02 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Question: Is there anything that can be done to the M22? 

Service is only being reduced more and more, and service is getting closer to resembling a coverage route. The Madison Street portion still does rather decent, but the other portions tend to lack ridership except for certain hours. 

 

On 4/1/2018 at 5:52 PM, Orion6025 said:

Given how the M9 (appears to) have higher frequencies, as well as the fact that it serves more areas on the LES and WFC areas, perhaps it's cannabilizing from the M22 ridership overall (but particularly in the chambers street segment).

 

Instead of shifting segments from one route to the other, maybe the focus should be on finding a way to way to combine them into one route.

[Orion6025]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

 

Instead of shifting segments from one route to the other, maybe the focus should be on finding a way to way to combine them into one route.

Yeah I suppose you could try. Just as well, losing Madison Street service only means people have to walk an extra block. That said, east of Essex some sort of m22-esque service is necessary; i don't think people would take transferring from a 14A to a 9 too well. Anyway, 2 ideas:

1. Leave the existing M9 alone, create some M9A to basically duplicate the m22 east of Essex but instead of routing it on to madison, send it down grand to east bway and then it can follow the rest of the m9 to BPC.

2. The cheaper/lazier option: to simply add a handful of short turn M9s from either Delancey  or East Bway

The trickiest part IMO is which routing to choose heading to the Hudson... Chambers is straighter/more direct and attracts more traffic, whereas the Warren/Murray combo is twisty but generally more free flowing (Except Murray down by West...). Additionally, the M9 wouldn't be able to handle pickups from North End and Chambers which sees decent usage during the rush. I suppose one could throw all those passengers on a Downtown Connection or something to the subway or some other bus to compensate for that stop... Meanwhile on the M9 segment, i only noticed one stop that sees rather heavy usage, the Warren/Greenwich stop (But that's closed right now due to construction anyway...). Between the far west side and Park row, ridership seems to be rather lukewarm with around 5-10 people per stop at the absolute best.

Weighing all options, the current M22 routing is what I'd choose with an extension duplicating the current M20 routing into BPC. That said, this would only be "good" if the DOT and MTA work together to make Chambers flow better from Greenwich to Centre...

Anyway I laid out a few pros/cons of both routings above for anyone who wants to chime in/form some opinions, and I'd be interested in hearing any other pros and cons not stated above also.

[R68OnBroadway]

Since longer routes mean more unreliability, are there any routes that should be split to increase reliability?

[Gotham Bus Co.]

39 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

Yeah I suppose you could try. Just as well, losing Madison Street service only means people have to walk an extra block. That said, east of Essex some sort of m22-esque service is necessary; i don't think people would take transferring from a 14A to a 9 too well. Anyway, 2 ideas:

1. Leave the existing M9 alone, create some M9A to basically duplicate the m22 east of Essex but instead of routing it on to madison, send it down grand to east bway and then it can follow the rest of the m9 to BPC.

2. The cheaper/lazier option: to simply add a handful of short turn M9s from either Delancey  or East Bway

The trickiest part IMO is which routing to choose heading to the Hudson... Chambers is straighter/more direct and attracts more traffic, whereas the Warren/Murray combo is twisty but generally more free flowing (Except Murray down by West...). Additionally, the M9 wouldn't be able to handle pickups from North End and Chambers which sees decent usage during the rush. I suppose one could throw all those passengers on a Downtown Connection or something to the subway or some other bus to compensate for that stop... Meanwhile on the M9 segment, i only noticed one stop that sees rather heavy usage, the Warren/Greenwich stop (But that's closed right now due to construction anyway...). Between the far west side and Park row, ridership seems to be rather lukewarm with around 5-10 people per stop at the absolute best.

Weighing all options, the current M22 routing is what I'd choose with an extension duplicating the current M20 routing into BPC. That said, this would only be "good" if the DOT and MTA work together to make Chambers flow better from Greenwich to Centre...

Anyway I laid out a few pros/cons of both routings above for anyone who wants to chime in/form some opinions, and I'd be interested in hearing any other pros and cons not stated above also.

 

My thought is a variation on your M9A. Basically, I'm rerouting all M9 trips to absorb the M22...

 

• Southbound from Bellevue via regular route into Avenue C, then left Houston St, right FDR Drive, right Grand Street, left East Broadway, into M9 route to BPC.

 

• Northbound from BPC via regular route into East Broadway, then stay on East Broadway into Grand Street, left Lewis Street, left Delancey Street, right Columbia Street, left Houston Street, right Avenue C, into current route to Bellevue. 

[B35 via Church]

The difference b/w E. Broadway & Madison is 2 blocks... Anyway, I'd want no part in trying to combine the two routes; Madison double-feeds Two Bridges better than E. Broadway does..... That, and I sincerely believe that having the combined service run on E. Broadway wont make the M9 anymore attractive to those folks....

Furthermore, taking that route (M9) off Essex, to me, is lunacy..... It isn't worth having the M9 serve the Baruch & Vladeck houses just to do away w/ the M22 & the Av. C folks won't take too kindly to that either - as it'd mean a longer ride to the // (for starters)..... 

The two routes both have their separate places in the network (esp. on their respective eastern end portions) - the problem is (as BM5 pointed out) that the MTA's chipping away at the M22.....

[R68OnBroadway]

Would it make sense to split the M3 or M4?