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Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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What do you mean? It spends most of its time on Houston Street, pretty much from river to river, and the only reason it takes Spring Street for a while is because Houston Street is one-way.

 

 

Yes, but the point is it is not a true crosstown route like the M14 or M23 which go straight across 14th and 23rd streets respectively. In spite of that though there is room for potential growth as more areas down there are built up.

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Yes, but the point is it is not a true crosstown route like the M14 or M23 which go straight across 14th and 23rd streets respectively. In spite of that though there is room for potential growth as more areas down there are built up.

 

 

Just because the M14s go straight down 14th doesnt make them true crosstowns at heart, you'd have to look at the route pattern as a whole. The M21 westbound goes straight along Houston and then Houston becomes a 1 way street. The M21 kinda follows a similar pattern to the M14D as they have to take a certain street at the end of the line to get back around onto the travel path. The only difference on the M21 is just one block on the east side end and 3 blocks on the west side end.

 

The M14D has to go all the way around to get back onto Avenue D and it requires a different travel path on the West Side to get back onto 14th Street. Whereas the M14A goes around Abingdon Square and has to cut through a few blocks just to get right back onto Grand Street.

 

Also, there is not much of a demand for bus service along the West Side south of 8th Street. A majority of folks that live around that area dont want buses going through the neighborhoods. People frequent the (1), (A), (C) & (E) trains mover than the buses over there.

Edited by Cait Sith

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Just because the M14s go straight down 14th doesnt make them true crosstowns at heart, you'd have to look at the route pattern as a whole. The M21 westbound goes straight along Houston and then Houston becomes a 1 way street. The M21 kinda follows a similar pattern to the M14D as they have to take a certain street at the end of the line to get back around onto the travel path. The only difference on the M21 is just one block on the east side end and 3 blocks on the west side end.

 

The M14D has to go all the way around to get back onto Avenue D and it requires a different travel path on the West Side to get back onto 14th Street. Whereas the M14A goes around Abingdon Square and has to cut through a few blocks just to get right back onto Grand Street.

 

Also, there is not much of a demand for bus service along the West Side south of 8th Street. A majority of folks that live around that area dont want buses going through the neighborhoods. People frequent the (1), (A), (C) & (E) trains mover than the buses over there.

 

Well yes of course all crosstown buses have to find a way to come back around. I didn't mention that part because I thought it was obvious. I was referring to the core of those routes. The issue of demand may change in the future though as they continue building down there. The place can be a ghost town depending on where you're at, so that's an issue too.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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interesting idea B35 that extension is quite creative. I posted the Q103 idea based on someone here suggesting an LIC or greenpoint to manhattan local so I thought that extention would bring in extra ridership. as for M20 its weekend service needs to get axed and off peak service reduced to 35 min headways or 40 night service on this HA HA it makes express buses look cheaper to operate

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interesting idea B35 that extension is quite creative. I posted the Q103 idea based on someone here suggesting an LIC or greenpoint to manhattan local so I thought that extention would bring in extra ridership. as for M20 its weekend service needs to get axed and off peak service reduced to 35 min headways or 40 night service on this HA HA it makes express buses look cheaper to operate

 

How about you stop posting and screwing up this thread? Kthx.

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as for M20 its weekend service needs to get axed and off peak service reduced to 35 min headways or 40 night service on this HA HA it makes express buses look cheaper to operate

 

No, that's a horrible idea.

 

The M20 is literally the only bus service to the massive residential neighborhood that is Battery Park City and the huge Gateway Plaza. It may be a waste of money, but you cannot cut weekend service. You also cannot make headways 35 minutes because, as I just said, it's the only bus service in that area. Not to mention, it's the only transit service. There's no subway either. And, and, on top of that, the area has huge political influence.

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I'm not gonna argue what's supposedly a true crosstown route because I'm not gonna waste time harping on semantics.... I don't see demand for the M21 increasing b/c they're building up over in the village.... As was said, since the M20 runs like crap, patrons that live around W. Houston st either make their way to the M5 (by walking), walking over to the W. 4th st station for the 6th & 8th av lines (B)(D)(F)(M)(A)(C)(E), or taking the (1).... When you live in an area where you have to put up w/ the likes of (the service levels of) the M20 & the M21, I cannot blame those residents one bit....

 

 

How about you stop posting and screwing up this thread? Kthx.

Word....

 

This is one of the better discussions in this section of the forum as of late, regarding a particular route.....

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true BUT what if another bus was added to battery park city via west side hwy as a ltd line?? ohh cait can you ever just act like well not a rude angry guy everytime you post about or to me you sound like DBZ vegeta when his rage breaks see vegeta's reaction yo DB EVO that is what u sound like

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Hey, how about someone who rides the M21 everyday twice a day give their opinion?

Hey, that's me!!!!

Now, to set the record straight, the route's 20-30 minute headway, although sick, work! The bus gets most of its seats filled during most of its peak trips. Which is THE point when scheduling service. It's an average 20-30 min ride crosstown even with construction. I ride it between 6th and it's eastern terminal morning and night. This route won't be cut. If it were to, it would happened on doomsday. It didn't. It's current route is actually an improvement! Buses run until around 11. It's last trip is a westbound leaving at around 1130pm. On time performance has slightly improved in the last 6 months or so. Holland tunnel traffic doesn't impact pm eastbound like they use to. I work weekends as well so having no crosstown south of 14th does hurt. I use the 14A and the 8 as a back up incase I miss a 21.

It IS a "true crosstown" just for the record. Now... Could it be improved? Maybe.

Half hourly wekend service may work as long as the word is put out there about it. There are quiteafew of us who commute from soho/west village and the lower. As far as more frequency during the week, I don't think it's needed. And this is a daily rider saying this. I say this because most people who frequent houston, are either shoppers, tourists or sometimes, like me, it's too nice out to not walk. Us regular riders of the 21 knows when they come. It's not really a convenience route but more of a commuters route.

Cut the 21? You smoking that stuff!

Improve it, a little, but it's honestly not really needed. (for now)

The people who complain about its headway are usually those who are rarely on it at all.

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interesting idea B35 that extension is quite creative. I posted the Q103 idea based on someone here suggesting an LIC or greenpoint to manhattan local so I thought that extention would bring in extra ridership. as for M20 its weekend service needs to get axed and off peak service reduced to 35 min headways or 40 night service on this HA HA it makes express buses look cheaper to operate

 

Okay:

 

1.Try to convince the people at Battery Park about losing M20 service. Like I said, you'll be history if you do that to those residents. The Manhattan Connections starts later in the day.Extend the M9 to there if you're gonna make that move. DO NOT ELIMINATE THE M20 UNLESS YOU HAVE ANOTHER BUS GOING THERE!! The M9 would be more cost effective.

2. LIC and Greenpoint are in Queens and Brooklyn, respectively

3. Q103 and M21 are two different routes serving totally different purposes.

4. Astoria to SoHo is too long. Not a good Idea.

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Proposal # 1:

 

Have the M31 absorb the M57. Implement morning peak-period limited-stop service from Yorkville to Midtown only. All Midtown-bound local trips would operate via Sutton Place South and E 55 St.

 

Proposal # 2:

 

M9 - Restore service via Ave B and E 14 St to Union Square.

M22 - After Madison St, operate via Jackson St, Grand St, Pitt St (which would become a two-way street), Avenue C, and the current M9 to Peter Cooper Village.

 

Proposal # 3:

 

M2 - Operate southbound via the current M5 to South Ferry all times except late nights. Return via State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, Worth St, Centre St, and Lafayette St, then current routing.

M5 - Operate to Houston St. Restore pre-June 2010 routing and stop assignments.

M6 - Restore route. Operates between South Ferry and Central Park South all times except late nights. Northbound would operate via the pre-June 2010 routing of State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, and 6 Ave. But would operate southbound via Central Pk S, 7 Ave, 7 Ave S, Varick St, Park Pl, Broadway, and State St.

M7 - Cut back to Penn Station when the M6 operates.

M20 - Operate southbound via 9 Ave, Bethune St, and Greenwich St (7 Ave service replaced with restored M6).

M11 - Reduce service where possible in order to satisfy the Bus Loading Guidelines.

 

 

So, what do you think? I think that Proposals 1 and 3 could easily be implemented, because they would, at the very least, pay for themselves. Proposal # 2 may be a long shot, but could hopefully be implemented when the economy gets healthier.

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I like how everyone that's posted in this thread thus far that knows about the route, all came to the same conclusion.....

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Replies in Red.

 

Proposal # 1:

 

Have the M31 absorb the M57. Implement morning peak-period limited-stop service from Yorkville to Midtown only. All Midtown-bound local trips would operate via Sutton Place South and E 55 St.

 

Proposal # 2:

 

M9 - Restore service via Ave B and E 14 St to Union Square. I don't know the M9 that well so i leave for the others to comment.

M22 - After Madison St, operate via Jackson St, Grand St, Pitt St (which would become a two-way street), Avenue C, and the current M9 to Peter Cooper Village.

Too long IMO. Primary purpose for M22 is to connect BPC with the City Hall area and ditto for the Lower East Side-City Hall. The argument could be made to restore late evening weekend service to at least 12 Midnight.

 

 

 

Proposal # 3:

 

M2 - Operate southbound via the current M5 to South Ferry all times except late nights. Return via State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, Worth St, Centre St, and Lafayette St, then current routing.

Disagree. It would get caught in traffic along Broadway/Church St(including Holland Tunnel)and lose any savings it has as a 5th/Madison Ave limited. A better argument is for the "M1"to restore South Ferry service.

 

M5 - Operate to Houston St. Restore pre-June 2010 routing and stop assignments.- I agree but I don't think the M6 is coming back. A compromise could be to end the M5 at 168th/Broadway. At very least all M5's (except late evenings 10pm-last bus)should run as limited between 14th Street and 72nd/Broadway.

M6 - Restore route. Operates between South Ferry and Central Park South all times except late nights. Northbound would operate via the pre-June 2010 routing of State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, and 6 Ave. But would operate southbound via Central Pk S, 7 Ave, 7 Ave S, Varick St, Park Pl, Broadway, and State St.-Read above on my M5 comments.

M7 - Cut back to Penn Station when the M6 operates.-For alternative or short trips, i agree.

M20 - Operate southbound via 9 Ave, Bethune St, and Greenwich St (7 Ave service replaced with restored M6).

Buddy I don't think the M6 is coming back. With that said to help the M20, restore full time M10 service to Penn Station.

 

M11 - Reduce service where possible in order to satisfy the Bus Loading Guidelines.-Why? Several other posters have complainedof SRO conditions on this line. Maybe artics along with more short trips between 14th St and 135th/Broadway is needed.

 

 

So, what do you think? I think that Proposals 1 and 3 could easily be implemented, because they would, at the very least, pay for themselves. Proposal # 2 may be a long shot, but could hopefully be implemented when the economy gets healthier.

 

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Replies in red as well

 

Proposal # 1:

 

Have the M31 absorb the M57. Implement morning peak-period limited-stop service from Yorkville to Midtown only. All Midtown-bound local trips would operate via Sutton Place South and E 55 St.

 

NO. The M31 and M57 get tied up in traffic along 57th Street and combining them would make those two lines even more unreliable. I live on the Upper East Side and if I'm traveling along York Avenue I prefer to take a cab rather than wait for the horrid M31 bus. Also, routing buses to go to 55th Street and then come back to 57th is at least a 5 minute delay because of the huge left turn demand from 1st to 57th and then onto the bridge. And no, we do not need limited service at all. All M31 bus stops during rush hour (at least north of 72nd) are too well used to justify skipping them, plus traffic and no timed lights on York would only make a limited a few minutes faster.

 

Proposal # 2:

 

M9 - Restore service via Ave B and E 14 St to Union Square.

M22 - After Madison St, operate via Jackson St, Grand St, Pitt St (which would become a two-way street), Avenue C, and the current M9 to Peter Cooper Village.

 

Not familiar with this area, no opinion.

 

Proposal # 3:

 

M2 - Operate southbound via the current M5 to South Ferry all times except late nights. Return via State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, Worth St, Centre St, and Lafayette St, then current routing.

M5 - Operate to Houston St. Restore pre-June 2010 routing and stop assignments.

M6 - Restore route. Operates between South Ferry and Central Park South all times except late nights. Northbound would operate via the pre-June 2010 routing of State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, and 6 Ave. But would operate southbound via Central Pk S, 7 Ave, 7 Ave S, Varick St, Park Pl, Broadway, and State St.

M7 - Cut back to Penn Station when the M6 operates.

M20 - Operate southbound via 9 Ave, Bethune St, and Greenwich St (7 Ave service replaced with restored M6).

M11 - Reduce service where possible in order to satisfy the Bus Loading Guidelines.

 

I don't care whether it's the M1 or M2, but one of those definitely needs to go back down to South Ferry at least rush hour only. If it were extended back I might use it to go home certain days when I'm just dead tired. The only east side bus route that goes downtown is the M15 SBS and Water Street is right at the edge. (M103 isn't limited and it's extremely slow; well over an hour to the Upper East Side from City Hall)

 

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I also agree. Combining M31 and M57 buses will be worst.

 

If these bus routes combine, who'll serve M57 portions?

 

M31 was my home line when I was living in Yorkville and heading to HSES.

 

57th Street also bus messes, which beside traffic causes delays.

 

I think they need to enforce bus lane on 57th Street to speed up bus service.

 

QJT, please stay in Manhattan bus routes topics. We're only discussing Manhattan Bus Routes.

 

M20 is only West Side Bus that serves Battery Park City.

 

When you're in both side of Battery Park City, M20 and Battery Park City Shuttle are helpful, so people could choose which ever bus comes first.

M20 is needed.

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I also agree. Combining M31 and M57 buses will be worst.

 

If these bus routes combine, who'll serve M57 portions?

 

M31 was my home line when I was living in Yorkville and heading to HSES.

 

57th Street also bus messes, which beside traffic causes delays.

 

I think they need to enforce bus lane on 57th Street to speed up bus service.

 

QJT, please stay in Manhattan bus routes topics. We're only discussing Manhattan Bus Routes.

 

M20 is only West Side Bus that serves Battery Park City.

 

When you're in both side of Battery Park City, M20 and Battery Park City Shuttle are helpful, so people could choose which ever bus comes first.

M20 is needed.

 

you clearly were not paying attention so I will say it so you can understand this time I NEVER SUGGESTED MERGING M57 WITH M31!!!!!!!!! M20 HA ridership says otherwise or the complete LACK of ridership.

 

That is what the west side hwy M37 would be created for it will serve battery park city and the piers along the west side hwy the development may bring ridership to it. Ohh it will replace M57's west end ave segment guess how many ppl use that segment NUFF SAID at the end of the day if ridership is not there IT IS NOT NEEDED END OF discussion. The M31 will get more service though.

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Okay:

 

1.Try to convince the people at Battery Park about losing M20 service. Like I said, you'll be history if you do that to those residents. The Manhattan Connections starts later in the day.Extend the M9 to there if you're gonna make that move. DO NOT ELIMINATE THE M20 UNLESS YOU HAVE ANOTHER BUS GOING THERE!! The M9 would be more cost effective.

2. LIC and Greenpoint are in Queens and Brooklyn, respectively

3. Q103 and M21 are two different routes serving totally different purposes.

4. Astoria to SoHo is too long. Not a good Idea.

 

It is actually vernon blvd LIC to houston street corridor via FDR. Allowing less resources to be used on the merged route without further reductions.

Not refuting ANOTHER BUS THERE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM THINKING

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Okay, since M21 service is kept being discussed here, can a M21A service between Williamsburg Bridge Bus Terminal to Manhattan [Goes via Bridge, Delancy, Essex, Houston] work?

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Okay, since M21 service is kept being discussed here, can a M21A service between Williamsburg Bridge Bus Terminal to Manhattan [Goes via Bridge, Delancy, Essex, Houston] work?

 

That was asked already.... See exchange below.....

 

 

People at BPC also would flip out (literately) if the M20 was cut at all.

Maybe the M9 can go through its 1997 routing and pick up passengers in BPC, and Extend the M10 to 14 street and Maybe a supplement below 14 street if it's demanded.

 

The M21 could be extended to WBP for ADA riders that can't use the (J)(M)(Z).

 

 

Physically, you can't extend it to Brooklyn, you'd have to cut off the East Side portion of the line.

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M9 and M22? What about M9 service along Essex st which is used by M9 riders and M22 rvice service around the vladecks projects and the surrounding co-ops which also uses m22 service heavily? Now the idea about sending 22s over the WillieB, well marcy Ave station has elevators. Not many require access at delancy/Essex, and if they did, I'm sure there would have been more of a fight to keep B39 service. There are some of us here who live and/or frequent the lower East side yet none of us have stated or suggested the need for all these ideas. That's the problem with threads like these: too many backseat route creators. If you don't frequent the route, don't make suggestions. That's just my opinion. But a logical one I assume.

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far rockaway you have a point to a degree for ideas to work the people with them need to talk to riders themselved. mostly I talk to transit users and non users based on travel patterns

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Returning the M9 to pre-2010 routing will kill ridership. The new route is more popular.

 

I do agree with QJT's M37... (yes, I said I agree with him.)

 

My only stipulation is that it will run into traffic on West Street.

 

And, people need to give QJT a bit more respect. You all sound like bullies.

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And, people need to give QJT a bit more respect. You all sound like bullies.

 

 

A 12 year old child who's lived in this country for less than a year could speak better English than him. If he actually took the time to construct a well thought out post that didn't sound like he was screaming with his random caps and thousands of exclamation marks I'd respect him, even if his ideas are crazy.

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