Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And reroute the B64 in the process if Bay Ridge Ave became one way. Shouldn't this be in the Brooklyn proposals thread?

I suppose it should but somehow it landed in the Manhattan bus proposals?

[Around the Horn]

I suppose it should but somehow it landed in the Manhattan bus proposals?

It happened because we were talking about the M22 and Chambers Street. Then I mentioned that Chambers Street and Bay Ridge Avenue were two way streets that aren't very wide.Then it went from there.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I don't know if this will be feasible or not due to congestion, but essentially what I've been thinking about is not a route-specific proposal. I've been thinking about ways of putting a more effective bus lane on 5 Avenue. Now, the current lanes are rarely enforced, and are blocked by cars, taxis, and other vehicles. A very easy money maker for fines would be between 37 and 38 streets, where the Langham Place Hotel is. There are always cars blocking the lane during all types of hours when the bus lane is in effect (7 AM to 7 PM weekdays).

 

In the proposal, the two outermost lanes on the right (looking north on 5 Avenue) would be where buses pass. The bus lanes would be placed from 59 Street to 26 Street. Those lanes would be specifically created for all buses, whether NYC or private buses. All NYCT and MTABC local and express bus routes would utilize these lanes. In addition, on certain blocks, one of the lanes would be replaced with a sidewalk, which would be where all the buses stop. Some stops will change for certain bus routes, others will not. The proposed stops would be outline below:

 

 

 

 

M1 LCL/M2 LCL/M3/M4 LCL/M5 LCL/Q32

59 Street, 55 Street, 51 Street, 47 Street, 42-43 Street, 38 Street, 34 Street (except M4/Q32), 30 Street (except M4/Q32), 26 Street (except M4/Q32)

 

M1 LTD/M2 LTD/ M4 LTD/ M5 LTD 

59 Street, 50 Street, 42-43 Street, 34 Street (except M4 LTD), 

 

BM1/BM2/BM3/BM4/BM5/X63/X64/X68

54 Street, 51 Street, 47 Street, 38 Street, 34 Street (except BM5), 26 Street (except BM5)

 

X1/X7/X9/X12/X30/X42/BxM3/BxM4

58 Street (BxM3/BxM4 only), 50 Street, 42 Street, 35 Street, 27 Street

 

X14/BxM6/BxM7/BxM8/BxM9/BxM10/BxM11

57-58 Street, 51-52 Street, 41-42 Street, 34-35 Street, 

 

X10/X17C/X17J/X27/X28/X37/X38

54-55 Street, 48 Street, 41-42 Street (except X17J), 34 Street (except X17J), 30 Street (X27-X38 only)

 

Blocks with bus stops on them

59-58 Sts, 58-57 Sts, 55-54 Sts, 52-51 Sts, 51-50 Sts, 48-47 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 43-42 Sts, 42-41 Sts, 38-39 Sts, 35-34 Sts, 34-33 Sts, 30-31 Sts, 26-27 Sts

 

Blocks without bus stops on them

57-56 Sts, 56-55 Sts, 54-53 Sts, 53-52 Sts, 50-49 Sts, 49-48 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 46-45 Sts, 45-44 Sts, 44-43 Sts, 41-40 Sts, 40-39 Sts, 38-37 Sts, 37-36 Sts, 36-35 Sts, 33-32 Sts, 32-31 Sts, 30-29 Sts, 29-28 Sts, 28-27 Sts

 

 

 

There will also be traffic light changes. There will be 60 seconds given for passing 5 Avenue traffic, then 20 seconds for turns, then there will be 30 seconds given for the crossing intersection traffic to pass.

Edited May 27, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know if this will be feasible or not due to congestion, but essentially what I've been thinking about is not a route-specific proposal. I've been thinking about ways of putting a more effective bus lane on 5 Avenue. Now, the current lanes are rarely enforced, and are blocked by cars, taxis, and other vehicles. A very easy money maker for fines would be between 37 and 38 streets, where the Langham Place Hotel is. There are always cars blocking the lane during all types of hours when the bus lane is in effect (7 AM to 7 PM weekdays).

 

In the proposal, the two outermost lanes on the right (looking north on 5 Avenue) would be where buses pass. Those lanes would be specifically created for all buses, whether NYC or private buses. All NYCT and MTABC local and express bus routes would utilize these lanes. In addition, on certain blocks, one of the lanes would be replaced with a sidewalk, which would be where all the buses stop. Some stops will change for certain bus routes, others will not.

Are you kidding me with the stops changing?  It's already a mess as it is.  Nobody knows where to board at.  The tourists NEVER know and always seem to get on any bus without having a clue as to where it is going, and dense locals aren't much better, waiting at any bus stop because they see people there.    Why move any more stops?  There are so many of them as it is that trying to move any of them would be more of a hassle than a blessing.

[pranavbhat924]

What do you all think about the M5 bus split? 

[FLX9304]

What do you all think about the M5 bus split? 

The M5 is the worst route as in OTP, so splitting the M5, turning it on 37 & the bottom half, renaming it as M55, will run to 38th St, both buses will connect at 37th & 38th Sts on 6th & 5th respectively. So I say go ahead to make the M5 better, and have the M55 operate as a Quill

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Are you kidding me with the stops changing?  It's already a mess as it is.  Nobody knows where to board at.  The tourists NEVER know and always seem to get on any bus without having a clue as to where it is going, and dense locals aren't much better, waiting at any bus stop because they see people there.    Why move any more stops?  There are so many of them as it is that trying to move any of them would be more of a hassle than a blessing.

While it currently is a mess, this will mean that there would be less stops scattered all over the place. Several blocks which have bus stops would not have bus stops anymore. This streamlines the amount of stops, and speeds up bus service. Furthermore, on the stops with right turns, the issue will be solved since the buses will no longer have to wait for cars to turn, since there won't be cars on this lanes at all. To address your concerns, the local and express will typically stop on different blocks, or at the very least, different stops on opposite corners (if they are on the same block). While I might give you the tourist part of the argument, the locals need to be able to understand any changes. In some cases the change is stopping at the opposite corner at an intersection, or stopping at a different corner on the same block. The most change is a change in stop by two blocks.

 

One thing I would like to add  (if there's also a concern in spacing) is in the AM rush, a good amount of those expresses are not running on 5th Avenue (the X1/X10/X63/X64/X68/BxM6/BxM7/BxM8/BxM9/BxM10/BxM11 & BxM4C). Of those that are running middays, they are running less frequent, with the exception of the X1. The X17/X27/X28/BM1-5 start running for a total of 8 extra buses per hour (but then the amount of buses per hour on the QV expresses negates that increase alone). Once you get to evening and overnight hours, there's definitely less express buses.

Edited May 27, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While it currently is a mess, this will mean that there would be less stops scattered all over the place. For the most part, the local and express buses stop on different blocks, or at the very least, different stops on opposite corners (if they are on the same block).

 

One thing I would like to add  (if there's also a concern in spacing) is in the AM rush, a good amount of those expresses are not running on 5th Avenue (the X1/X10/X63/X64/X68/BxM6/BxM7/BxM8/BxM9/BxM10/BxM11 & BxM4C). Of those that are running middays, they are running less frequent, with the exception of the X1. The X17/X27/X28/BM1-5 start running for a total of 8 extra buses per hour (but then the amount of buses per hour on the QV expresses negates that increase alone). Once you get to evening and overnight hours, there's definitely less express buses.

While that is true, the crowds would be insane. I think the current arrangement works best, especially now that they added bus shelters at several of those stops.  The shelters (aside from their obvious function) act as a buffer so that folks can stand in line for the bus and not be hassled as much by tourists, vagrants and the like.  Now if they could add more of them along 6th and Madison Avenues...

[checkmatechamp13]

There will also be traffic light changes. There will be 60 seconds given for passing 5 Avenue traffic, then 20 seconds for turns, then there will be 30 seconds given for the crossing intersection traffic to pass.

 

Not sure why you would need a separate phase for turns since most of the streets are one-way (and 5th Avenue itself is one-way)

 

In any case, as for the stop shifts themselves, I do agree with the general idea of consolidating stops, but definitely not with that grouping of routes. Why are the X10/17 sharing the same stop with express buses from a completely different borough? And the Hylan Blvd buses with the Mariners Harbor buses? (And the X14 with a bunch of Bronx buses?)

 

Right now, the X10/12/14/17/30/42 are grouped together, the X1/7/9 are grouped together, the X27/28/37/38 are grouped together, and the Queens, Bronx, and BM buses are grouped accordingly. I'm not sure how you can get much better than that. Granted, the X1/9/10/14 all serve Narrows Road North (except the X10 during PM rush hours obviously), but that, and the X1/7/17 to the ETC are really the only groups where the current setup prevents them from being able to access their full range of options at a single stop. 

 

I mean, maybe have all the SI buses stop on the same block, but then you run into the problem that VG8 pointed out in that the lines would be insane. Maybe have them on adjacent blocks, so that the few people who have the option of both can run to the other stop if they feel inclined.

 

Also, the X1/10 do in fact run during the AM rush southbound (as a matter of fact, all of them do except for some X68 runs).

 

BTW, having the BM and Queens express buses stop at 54th, 51st, and 47th is overkill. Just have them do 54th and 47th and call it a day.

 

As for the local stops, I think the M4 LTD should be grouped with the M4 LCL & Q32. For the small group of passengers only traveling within the 59th-34th Street range, they only save 3 stops on the limited vs. the local (and they have all the other buses to choose from anyway), and I think it's more beneficial to have the Penn Station buses grouped together.

 

The M5 is the worst route as in OTP, so splitting the M5, turning it on 37 & the bottom half, renaming it as M55, will run to 38th St, both buses will connect at 37th & 38th Sts on 6th & 5th respectively. So I say go ahead to make the M5 better, and have the M55 operate as a Quill

 

Make the M5 great again. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Not sure why you would need a separate phase for turns since most of the streets are one-way (and 5th Avenue itself is one-way)

 

In any case, as for the stop shifts themselves, I do agree with the general idea of consolidating stops, but definitely not with that grouping of routes. Why are the X10/17 sharing the same stop with express buses from a completely different borough? And the Hylan Blvd buses with the Mariners Harbor buses? (And the X14 with a bunch of Bronx buses?)

 

Right now, the X10/12/14/17/30/42 are grouped together, the X1/7/9 are grouped together, the X27/28/37/38 are grouped together, and the Queens, Bronx, and BM buses are grouped accordingly. I'm not sure how you can get much better than that. Granted, the X1/9/10/14 all serve Narrows Road North (except the X10 during PM rush hours obviously), but that, and the X1/7/17 to the ETC are really the only groups where the current setup prevents them from being able to access their full range of options at a single stop. 

 

I mean, maybe have all the SI buses stop on the same block, but then you run into the problem that VG8 pointed out in that the lines would be insane. Maybe have them on adjacent blocks, so that the few people who have the option of both can run to the other stop if they feel inclined.

 

Also, the X1/10 do in fact run during the AM rush southbound (as a matter of fact, all of them do except for some X68 runs).

 

BTW, having the BM and Queens express buses stop at 54th, 51st, and 47th is overkill. Just have them do 54th and 47th and call it a day.

 

As for the local stops, I think the M4 LTD should be grouped with the M4 LCL & Q32. For the small group of passengers only traveling within the 59th-34th Street range, they only save 3 stops on the limited vs. the local (and they have all the other buses to choose from anyway), and I think it's more beneficial to have the Penn Station buses grouped together.

 

 

Make the M5 great again. 

 

The lanes would be dedicated bus lanes (it would be bus-only), from 5 AM-12 AM. Therefore, on every other street, there will be cars turning onto side streets from the inside lanes (the bus lanes are on the outside). That is why they would need a separate light. The dedicated would be on the right (looking north on 5 Avenue). This would make it much easier for most of the buses turning off 5 Avenue (The X1, X10, X12, X14, X17C, X27, X28, X37, X38, X42, X63, X64, X68, BM1, BM2, BM3, BM4, BM5, BxM3, BxM4, BxM6, BxM7, BxM8, BxM9, BxM10, BxM11 all make a left getting off 5 Avenue, and would benefit from not dealing with vehicular traffic turning as well). The X17

 

As for the patterns, with the example of the X14 and the BxM6-11 making those stops together, the X14 would be the only one picking up, since the BxM's are on their drop-off segment by then. So the bus stop sign would say " X14 | PT RICHMOND" and right below it " MTA | DROP OFF ONLY". 

 

For the M4/M4 LTD, the buses actually do stop on the same block, but on opposite corners. So technically they are grouped together on the same block.

 

I have seen some issues which you did mention with the original setup, so I revised the setup, which is as follows:

 

 

 

 

 

I have the block in which the bus will stop, and on what street is the stop closest to (in parenthesis). For the ones in the middle, there will be no number in parenthesis.

 

M1 LCL/M2 LCL/M3/M5 LCL

59-58 Sts (59), 55-54 Sts (55), 51-50 Sts (51), 47-46 Sts (47), 43-42 Sts (43), 39-38 Sts (39), 34-33 Sts (34), 31-30 Sts (30), 27-26 Sts (26)

 

M4 LCL/Q32

59-58 Sts (59), 55-54 Sts (54), 51-50 Sts (51), 47-46 Sts (46), 43-42 Sts (42), 39-38 Sts (38)

 

M4 LTD

59-58 Sts (59), 51-50 Sts (51), 43-42 Sts (42), 39-38 Sts (38)

 

M1 LTD/M2 LTD/ M5 LTD 

59-58 Sts (59), 51-50 Sts (51), 43-42 Sts (43), 34-33 Sts (34), 27-26 Sts (26)

 

BM1/BM2/BM3/BM4

54-53 Sts (54), 48-47 Sts (48), 38-37 Sts (38), 35-34 Sts (34), 27-26 Sts (27)

 

BM5

54-53 Sts (54), 48-47 Sts (48), 38-37 Sts (38)

 

X63/X64/X68/BxM3/BxM4/BxM11 (Discharge Only)

54-53 Sts (53), 48-47 Sts (47), 38-37 Sts (37), 35-34 Sts (35), 27-26 Sts (27)

 

X1/X7/X9 (5 Ave/48 St stop MOVED to 50 Street/5 Ave)

42-41 Sts (41), 36-35 Sts (35), 28-27 Sts (27) 

 

X10/X10B/X17C

54-53 Street, 47-46 St (47) 42-41 Sts, 36-35 Sts

 

X12/X14/X42 

54-53 Sts (53), 46-45 St (45), 42-41 Sts (41), 36-35 Sts (35), 28-27 Sts (28) 

 

X17J/X30

54-53 Sts, 47-46 St (47)

 

BxM6/BxM7/BxM8/BxM9/BxM10 (Discharge Only)

58-59 Street (58), 51-52 Street (52), 42-43 Street (42), 36-35 Sts (36),

 

X27/X28/X37/X38

52-51 Sts (51), 48-47 Street, 41-42 Street (42), 35-34 Sts, 31-30 Sts (31) 

 

Blocks with bus stops on them

59-58 Sts, 55-54 Sts, 54-53 Sts, 52-51 Sts, 51-50 Sts, 48-47 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 43-42 Sts, 42-41 Sts, 38-39 Sts, 36-35 Sts, 35-34 Sts, 34-33 Sts, 31-30 Sts, 28-27 Sts, 27-26 Sts

 

Blocks without bus stops on them

58-57 Sts, 57-56 Sts, 56-55 Sts,  53-52 Sts, 50-49 Sts, 49-48 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 46-45 Sts, 45-44 Sts, 44-43 Sts, 41-40 Sts, 40-39 Sts, 38-37 Sts, 37-36 Sts, 33-32 Sts, 32-31 Sts, 30-29 Sts, 29-28 Sts

 

Buses with a bus stop and "pockets"

47-46 St, 46-45 St

 

"Pockets" -On this layout, the bus stop will be at 46 St and 45 St, respectively. There will be two lanes once at the beginning of the block, but then the lanes will merge into one at half-block, and the stop is located on the other end of the block. To avoid delaying the flow, buses slated to stop at those stops will allow other buses to pass through (unless there's a few seconds left for the light). After buses have passed, then it will proceed into the stop, or if the light is slated to turn red in a few seconds.

 

If bus lanes are on the right (looking north) instead of left, potentially every block could have a stop if the latter layout is implemented. It allows for a better flow of service.

 

 

[B35 via Church]

I don't know if this will be feasible or not due to congestion, but essentially what I've been thinking about is not a route-specific proposal. I've been thinking about ways of putting a more effective bus lane on 5 Avenue. Now, the current lanes are rarely enforced, and are blocked by cars, taxis, and other vehicles. A very easy money maker for fines would be between 37 and 38 streets, where the Langham Place Hotel is. There are always cars blocking the lane during all types of hours when the bus lane is in effect (7 AM to 7 PM weekdays).

 

In the proposal, the two outermost lanes on the right (looking north on 5 Avenue) would be where buses pass. The bus lanes would be placed from 59 Street to 26 Street. Those lanes would be specifically created for all buses, whether NYC or private buses. All NYCT and MTABC local and express bus routes would utilize these lanes. In addition, on certain blocks, one of the lanes would be replaced with a sidewalk, which would be where all the buses stop. Some stops will change for certain bus routes, others will not. The proposed stops would be outline below:

 

 

 

 

M1 LCL/M2 LCL/M3/M4 LCL/M5 LCL/Q32

59 Street, 55 Street, 51 Street, 47 Street, 42-43 Street, 38 Street, 34 Street (except M4/Q32), 30 Street (except M4/Q32), 26 Street (except M4/Q32)

 

M1 LTD/M2 LTD/ M4 LTD/ M5 LTD 

59 Street, 50 Street, 42-43 Street, 34 Street (except M4 LTD), 

 

BM1/BM2/BM3/BM4/BM5/X63/X64/X68

54 Street, 51 Street, 47 Street, 38 Street, 34 Street (except BM5), 26 Street (except BM5)

 

X1/X7/X9/X12/X30/X42/BxM3/BxM4

58 Street (BxM3/BxM4 only), 50 Street, 42 Street, 35 Street, 27 Street

 

X14/BxM6/BxM7/BxM8/BxM9/BxM10/BxM11

57-58 Street, 51-52 Street, 41-42 Street, 34-35 Street, 

 

X10/X17C/X17J/X27/X28/X37/X38

54-55 Street, 48 Street, 41-42 Street (except X17J), 34 Street (except X17J), 30 Street (X27-X38 only)

 

Blocks with bus stops on them

59-58 Sts, 58-57 Sts, 55-54 Sts, 52-51 Sts, 51-50 Sts, 48-47 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 43-42 Sts, 42-41 Sts, 38-39 Sts, 35-34 Sts, 34-33 Sts, 30-31 Sts, 26-27 Sts

 

Blocks without bus stops on them

57-56 Sts, 56-55 Sts, 54-53 Sts, 53-52 Sts, 50-49 Sts, 49-48 Sts, 47-46 Sts, 46-45 Sts, 45-44 Sts, 44-43 Sts, 41-40 Sts, 40-39 Sts, 38-37 Sts, 37-36 Sts, 36-35 Sts, 33-32 Sts, 32-31 Sts, 30-29 Sts, 29-28 Sts, 28-27 Sts

 

 

 

There will also be traffic light changes. There will be 60 seconds given for passing 5 Avenue traffic, then 20 seconds for turns, then there will be 30 seconds given for the crossing intersection traffic to pass.

So you want to have LONGER lines of waiting passengers condensed to doing so on fewer streets?

 

Strongly disagree with this.... Sounds dangerous; I seriously doubt you're considering the safety of the waiting passengers....

Express bus ridership might be declining system-wide, but on a per-stop basis, you wouldn't know it - There's still a lot of people waiting for these buses during the height of the peak direction.... Not to mention you can barely walk along 5th as it is.... I look at that idea of having the x10, x17, and the Brooklyn NYCT expresses all stop at one stop/pole, and my immediate reaction upon reading that, is cringing....

 

Please tell me I'm missing something with this, because on the surface, this reeks of hastiness.....

[checkmatechamp13]

The lanes would be dedicated bus lanes (it would be bus-only), from 5 AM-12 AM. Therefore, on every other street, there will be cars turning onto side streets from the inside lanes (the bus lanes are on the outside). That is why they would need a separate light. The dedicated would be on the right (looking north on 5 Avenue). This would make it much easier for most of the buses turning off 5 Avenue (The X1, X10, X12, X14, X17C, X27, X28, X37, X38, X42, X63, X64, X68, BM1, BM2, BM3, BM4, BM5, BxM3, BxM4, BxM6, BxM7, BxM8, BxM9, BxM10, BxM11 all make a left getting off 5 Avenue, and would benefit from not dealing with vehicular traffic turning as well). The X17

 

As for the patterns, with the example of the X14 and the BxM6-11 making those stops together, the X14 would be the only one picking up, since the BxM's are on their drop-off segment by then. So the bus stop sign would say " X14 | PT RICHMOND" and right below it " MTA | DROP OFF ONLY". 

 

For the M4/M4 LTD, the buses actually do stop on the same block, but on opposite corners. So technically they are grouped together on the same block.

 

What's the current setup on Madison? Are cars allowed to use those bus lanes for right turns? (It's been a long time since I've headed to that part of Midtown. 90% of the time, I either get off Downtown for the subway, or at Penn Station)

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the X17.

 

In any case, I know the X14 is running outbound while the Bronx express buses run inbound. But you're still separating a random bus for no reason. Like I said, the X14 can easily be used as an alternative for the X1/9, and it covers a similar area as the X12 (and for the few going to Port Richmond, it serves as an alternative to the X10). I guess it's a moot point since you have it grouped with the X12/42 (I guess since they serve Westerleigh and run all the way down to 23rd)

 

Which reminds me: I can't stand that whole thing with the pedestrian plaza by Broadway & 23rd, and making 17th Street one-way westbound near Union Square. From a time perspective, it takes an extra few minutes to turn left onto 23rd Street and then right onto Park Avenue, compared to turning left onto 17th Street and then right onto Union Square East (and with this whole emphasis on pedestrian safety, more turning buses at busy intersections increases the number of conflicting movements). From a convenience perspective, it split up the X1/7/9/12 from the X10/17 and while I personally wasn't negatively affected (since I can take either the X10 or X17), it is an inconvenience for people who can use either route. The only advantage is that it's a little closer to Baruch College and the hospitals on the East Side, but in the grand scheme of things, those are relatively negligible sources of ridership (and in exchange, you make it harder for people coming from points west of Madison)

 

"Pockets" -On this layout, the bus stop will be at 46 St and 45 St, respectively. There will be two lanes once at the beginning of the block, but then the lanes will merge into one at half-block, and the stop is located on the other end of the block. To avoid delaying the flow, buses slated to stop at those stops will allow other buses to pass through (unless there's a few seconds left for the light). After buses have passed, then it will proceed into the stop, or if the light is slated to turn red in a few seconds.

 

If bus lanes are on the right (looking north) instead of left, potentially every block could have a stop if the latter layout is implemented. It allows for a better flow of service.

 

I think you're overestimating how well this will work in practice, with buses letting each other pass (which BTW, also takes time for the bus pulling over). Aside from that, I don't see what is wrong with having the right-hand bus lane be for stopped buses and the left-hand one being for passing buses. 

 

As for the bus lanes on the left side, I don't think it's a great idea to have all those pedestrians waiting in (basically) the middle of the street like that. I mean, you could put a fence and maybe some Jersey barriers or something, but you're forcing all those people to wait on a strip around what, 6--10 feet wide once you take away space for the separation from the general traffic lanes? 

Edited May 28, 2016 by checkmatechamp13

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So you want to have LONGER lines of waiting passengers condensed to doing so on fewer streets?

 

Strongly disagree with this.... Sounds dangerous; I seriously doubt you're considering the safety of the waiting passengers....

Express bus ridership might be declining system-wide, but on a per-stop basis, you wouldn't know it - There's still a lot of people waiting for these buses during the height of the peak direction.... Not to mention you can barely walk along 5th as it is.... I look at that idea of having the x10, x17, and the Brooklyn NYCT expresses all stop at one stop/pole, and my immediate reaction upon reading that, is cringing....

 

Please tell me I'm missing something with this, because on the surface, this reeks of hastiness.....

 

Yes, I did go into more specifics after noting checkmate's comment about the M4/M4 LTD. In certain cases, the buses stopped at the same intersection, but on different sides, or on the same block, but at different corners of the same block. I clarified and moved some things around, either to maintain a similar stop as before or just to streamline stops. My most recent modification above has the edited stop selection

 

 

What's the current setup on Madison? Are cars allowed to use those bus lanes for right turns? (It's been a long time since I've headed to that part of Midtown. 90% of the time, I either get off Downtown for the subway, or at Penn Station)

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the X17.

 

In any case, I know the X14 is running outbound while the Bronx express buses run inbound. But you're still separating a random bus for no reason. Like I said, the X14 can easily be used as an alternative for the X1/9, and it covers a similar area as the X12 (and for the few going to Port Richmond, it serves as an alternative to the X10). I guess it's a moot point since you have it grouped with the X12/42 (I guess since they serve Westerleigh and run all the way down to 23rd)

 

Which reminds me: I can't stand that whole thing with the pedestrian plaza by Broadway & 23rd, and making 17th Street one-way westbound near Union Square. From a time perspective, it takes an extra few minutes to turn left onto 23rd Street and then right onto Park Avenue, compared to turning left onto 17th Street and then right onto Union Square East (and with this whole emphasis on pedestrian safety, more turning buses at busy intersections increases the number of conflicting movements). From a convenience perspective, it split up the X1/7/9/12 from the X10/17 and while I personally wasn't negatively affected (since I can take either the X10 or X17), it is an inconvenience for people who can use either route. The only advantage is that it's a little closer to Baruch College and the hospitals on the East Side, but in the grand scheme of things, those are relatively negligible sources of ridership (and in exchange, you make it harder for people coming from points west of Madison)

 

 

I think you're overestimating how well this will work in practice, with buses letting each other pass (which BTW, also takes time for the bus pulling over). Aside from that, I don't see what is wrong with having the right-hand bus lane be for stopped buses and the left-hand one being for passing buses. 

 

As for the bus lanes on the left side, I don't think it's a great idea to have all those pedestrians waiting in (basically) the middle of the street like that. I mean, you could put a fence and maybe some Jersey barriers or something, but you're forcing all those people to wait on a strip around what, 6--10 feet wide once you take away space for the separation from the general traffic lanes? 

 

On Madison, yes they are. However, the difference would have been that these are strictly bus-only lanes. As for the last one (which for whatever reason I did not finish the sentence), I was going to say the X17J and the X30 both turn right, so they would have to merge into regular traffic. 

 

As for bus lane on the left side, it would help facilitate turning off of 5 Avenue, since most buses turn left on 5th Avenue. It would also be outrageous to take out 3 lanes on 5 Avenue for buses (if they ran on the left side). If they ran on the right hand side, they would still have to navigate through regular traffic to turn, which takes more time, as 5 Avenue is more congested than Madison (and that's why the bus lanes & bus lane policies are stricter for 5 Avenue).

 

 

As for moving the X10/X17 because of the Broadway Pedestrian plaza, I agree with you. At least with having it on 5 Avenue, it is easier for West Side folks to catch the bus on 5th Avenue. You can't route the X10/17 on 14 Street though, because they would be more delayed than they currently are. The bus could be rerouted to 23 Street instead towards Park Avenue though, at the very least (and then the 32 Street stop could be moved somewhere on 5th Avenue). However it seems like there's too much on 23 Street as it is to have both lines stop there.

Edited May 28, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[checkmatechamp13]

On Madison, yes they are. However, the difference would have been that these are strictly bus-only lanes. As for the last one (which for whatever reason I did not finish the sentence), I was going to say the X17J and the X30 both turn right, so they would have to merge into regular traffic. 

 

As for bus lane on the left side, it would help facilitate turning off of 5 Avenue, since most buses turn left on 5th Avenue. It would also be outrageous to take out 3 lanes on 5 Avenue for buses (if they ran on the left side). If they ran on the right hand side, they would still have to navigate through regular traffic to turn, which takes more time, as 5 Avenue is more congested than Madison (and that's why the bus lanes & bus lane policies are stricter for 5 Avenue).

 

Which means that the overall flow of traffic (including buses) would likely move slower because you have to account for the extra phase. Either you take the signal time away from 5th Avenue, or from the side streets (which also affects the traffic flow at other nearby intersections). I mean, think about it, when the signal is red for through-running traffic, those buses can't move. (Heck, for that matter, the X17J/30 would also be affected by this)

 

I know what your reasoning is, but I don't agree with it. Honestly, you could solve a whole bunch of left-turning problems by reconverting East 17th to one-way so that the X1/7/9/10/12/17 can avoid turning left off 5th Avenue (a turning movement which blocks traffic for a longer period of time compared to running straight BTW, especially when you take pedestrians into account). I looked at Google Streetview and it looks like they're using the old eastbound portion for some kind of loading zone or something. SMH.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Which means that the overall flow of traffic (including buses) would likely move slower because you have to account for the extra phase. Either you take the signal time away from 5th Avenue, or from the side streets (which also affects the traffic flow at other nearby intersections). I mean, think about it, when the signal is red for through-running traffic, those buses can't move. (Heck, for that matter, the X17J/30 would also be affected by this)

 

I know what your reasoning is, but I don't agree with it. Honestly, you could solve a whole bunch of left-turning problems by reconverting East 17th to one-way so that the X1/7/9/10/12/17 can avoid turning left off 5th Avenue (a turning movement which blocks traffic for a longer period of time compared to running straight BTW, especially when you take pedestrians into account). I looked at Google Streetview and it looks like they're using the old eastbound portion for some kind of loading zone or something. SMH.

You mean make E.17 St an eastbound one-way (since it was two-way before, now one-way westbound).

 

Now, with making the buses turn left on E 17 Street instead of at 23 Street or 32 Street, what about the stop at 23 Street/Broadway. Are parking spaces going to be reduced in order to add a stop on Broadway itself (I'm just curious)? 

 

Now, the BM1-4, X37/X38,  and the other SI expresses (X14, 42) would still have to turn here, and might cause delays on 23 Street, but they have to turn there, in order to get to the FDR. I don't know how well bus lanes on 23 Street will mitigate some reliability issues, but that's anyone's guess.

 

Now, if the left side bus lanes won't work, you could have two rightside bus lanes, since it would be much cheaper anyway, but still have those cycle periods (and at every other light, when cars are to turn left, the buses would be able to proceed, since no cars will be turning towards the right simultaneously). Or you could also have the cars and taxis turn on the bus lanes, but I feel that this might get abused, especially in the scenario I mentioned in my original post. Therefore, there needs to be strict enforcement of the rules, and one place where I would place police is on 36-37 Sts, in addition to the area around Rockerfeller center.

Edited May 29, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[checkmatechamp13]

You mean make E.17 St an eastbound one-way (since it was two-way before, now one-way westbound).

 

I meant to say revert it to being two-way.

 

 

Now, with making the buses turn left on E 17 Street instead of at 23 Street or 32 Street, what about the stop at 23 Street/Broadway. Are parking spaces going to be reduced in order to add a stop on Broadway itself (I'm just curious)? 

 

I mean, there was a stop there before the buses were rerouted to run down Park Avenue. I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a stop there afterward.

 

Now, if the left side bus lanes won't work, you could have two rightside bus lanes, since it would be much cheaper anyway, but still have those cycle periods (and at every other light, when cars are to turn left, the buses would be able to proceed, since no cars will be turning towards the right simultaneously). Or you could also have the cars and taxis turn on the bus lanes, but I feel that this might get abused, especially in the scenario I mentioned in my original post. Therefore, there needs to be strict enforcement of the rules, and one place where I would place police is on 36-37 Sts, in addition to the area around Rockerfeller center.

 

Alright, then enforce the rules, but don't screw up the traffic flow even more by cutting into the amount of time through-traffic has to go straight. If you have 60 seconds for straight traffic, 20 seconds for turns, and 30 seconds for cross-traffic, that's 18% of the cycle time being dedicated to the turning movement (and aside from that, what are the cars supposed to do while they wait for the light to change? Sit there and block the through-traffic?)

[Gotham Bus Co.]

I suppose it should but somehow it landed in the Manhattan bus proposals?

 

Correction: it landed in the Manhattan Division proposals.

[Around the Horn]

Sorry to bump this thread but it seemed like the best place to put this idea:

 

Do you think there is a market for an extended M12 to either Spring Street or Tribeca via Washington and Greenwich Streets or would it parallel the M20 too much to get decent ridership?

 

A bus on West Street seems like a nonstarter.

[B35 via Church]

Sorry to bump this thread but it seemed like the best place to put this idea:

 

Do you think there is a market for an extended M12 to either Spring Street or Tribeca via Washington and Greenwich Streets or would it parallel the M20 too much to get decent ridership?

 

A bus on West Street seems like a nonstarter.

Not past (referring to, north of) 14th st, no....

 

Basically, it wouldn't accomplish much of anything else that the sorry ass M20 doesn't 1/2 ass do for those folks

(referring to its piss poor service & propensity for buses coming up "missing")....

 

The M12 on west is a non-starter; nobody takes it between 24th & 57th (not inclusive)...

[MysteriousBtrain]

Sorry to bump this thread but it seemed like the best place to put this idea:

 

Do you think there is a market for an extended M12 to either Spring Street or Tribeca via Washington and Greenwich Streets or would it parallel the M20 too much to get decent ridership?

 

A bus on West Street seems like a nonstarter.

I think the West Side south of 14 St is fine for now. If anything, extend the M14 from Abingdon Sq with the M12 following it's normal path to Horatio St, then go down Greenwich Av until 6 Av, where the downtown route would continue to Prince St via MacDougall St. And of course, uptown buses use 6 Av between Prince and 8 Sts then via Greenwich until 14 St.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think the West Side south of 14 St is fine for now. If anything, extend the M14 from Abingdon Sq with the M12 following it's normal path to Horatio St, then go down Greenwich Av until 6 Av, where the downtown route would continue to Prince St via MacDougall St. And of course, uptown buses use 6 Av between Prince and 8 Sts then via Greenwich until 14 St.

No more M14 extensions. The branches already run like crap as it is, especially during rush hour. If anything they could short turn some M14s to alleviate the ridiculous long waits.

[MysteriousBtrain]

No more M14 extensions. The branches already run like crap as it is, especially during rush hour. If anything they could short turn some M14s to alleviate the ridiculous long waits.

I mean M12. Don't know how I wrote M14 in there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I mean M12. Don't know how I wrote M14 in there.

Not much better. The M12 has 30 minute headways, so the only thing you're guaranteeing is the line traveling longer carrying air. I have yet to see anyone on it when I've seen it.

[Future ENY OP]

Riddle me this. What's the main purpose of this M12? From what I read it serves no real purpose. Extending it further Downtown won't help. The M12 sounds like the M55, in reality needs to be the M6 again and why 30 min headways tho?

[Q43LTD]

Well it's definitely not taking riders off the M11 that's for sure. Or even the M20. According to the , to provide service on the far West Side of Manhattan.