Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Riddle me this. What's the main purpose of this M12? From what I read it serves no real purpose. Extending it further Downtown won't help. The M12 sounds like the M55, in reality needs to be the M6 again and why 30 min headways tho?

The thinking is with the re-development of the Hudson Yards, you'll have A LOT more people working and living over there, which is true. We have clients that have already set up in the area. The problem is with such pathetic headways, you won't attract casual riders or anyone else for that matter except for those who actually need the service and have no other options. The folks moving in there will have money so they'll be hopping in Ubers and other car services. If the service is going to have any real impact and help make connections, it definitely needs to run more frequently.

[IAlam]

The thinking is with the re-development of the Hudson Yards, you'll have A LOT more people working and living over there, which is true. We have clients that have already set up in the area. The problem is with such pathetic headways, you won't attract casual riders or anyone else for that matter except for those who actually need the service and have no other options. The folks moving in there will have money so they'll be hopping in Ubers and other car services. If the service is going to have any real impact and help make connections, it definitely needs to run more frequently.

The only time I consider the M12 is if there is one near by, other than that I'll usually consider other options. I'm pretty sure a lot of other riders have this mindset too. 

[Around the Horn]

The thinking is with the re-development of the Hudson Yards, you'll have A LOT more people working and living over there, which is true. We have clients that have already set up in the area. The problem is with such pathetic headways, you won't attract casual riders or anyone else for that matter except for those who actually need the service and have no other options. The folks moving in there will have money so they'll be hopping in Ubers and other car services. If the service is going to have any real impact and help make connections, it definitely needs to run more frequently.

 

^THIS. 

[B35 via Church]

I think the West Side south of 14 St is fine for now. If anything, extend the M14 M12 from Abingdon Sq with the M12 following it's normal path to Horatio St, then go down Greenwich Av until 6 Av, where the downtown route would continue to Prince St via MacDougall St. And of course, uptown buses use 6 Av between Prince and 8 Sts then via Greenwich until 14 St.

Fat chance having buses maneuver its way down MacDougal.... I remember those small trucks constantly getting jammed up along MacDougal when I used to walk from B'way-Lafayette subway (along Houston)..... I would just smh & say to myself why are you even running down this narrow ass street anyway.... Then you'd see the yellow cabs & other motorists behind making hand gestures & cursing & what not.... That's where the laughs from me would commence....

 

I used to see buses DH-ing down Greenwich av (don't know if they still do) when I would walk to/from the dominos along 8th for lunch.... I'm guessing they were either M8's or M21's set to start their in-service trips back west..... So physically they can use Greenwich av, but I'm not too certain if residents would go for having buses make stops (plural) along it.....

 

An M12 running in that immediate area (east of where it currently terminates) would share much of the problems that plague the M8....

 

Riddle me this. What's the main purpose of this M12? From what I read it serves no real purpose. Extending it further Downtown won't help. The M12 sounds like the M55, in reality needs to be the M6 again and why 30 min headways tho?

What it's supposed to be, is exactly what VG8 mentioned..... What it actually is, is not much more than M31/57 backup (both directions), a Chelsea-Greenwich Village shuttle (NB direction), and stragglers that use it along 11th for some connecting bus (SB direction)..... All the tourists (and other folks) that frequent the various piers have no real use for the M12 - which explains the severe lack of activity at any of those bus stops really, along West st....

 

Well it's definitely not taking riders off the M11 that's for sure. Or even the M20. According to the , to provide service on the far West Side of Manhattan.

Yeah, much of nobody is using M12's over M11's or M20's... Matter fact, just frequenting Abingdon sq. would have you feel that the two routes are worlds apart from each other - to the point where the M12 almost resembles some non-MTA service or something..... I'm not even referring to the fact that they don't share the same terminal down there either..... At least there's somewhat of a relationship or w/e you wanna call it, b/w the M11 & the M20.....

 

The only time I consider the M12 is if there is one near by, other than that I'll usually consider other options. I'm pretty sure a lot of other riders have this mindset too. 

I'll use the SB M12 from Columbus Circle (if I'm coming from points north off some other bus) if I want to circumnavigate the Midtown madness (lol)..... Outside of fanning, I don't have a use for the NB M12.....

[Q43LTD]

I think if the M12 were extended further north or south and not run on 30 minute headways, maybe it would be like the B32 siphoning riders off the B62 to a degree

[B35 via Church]

I think if the M12 were extended further north or south and not run on 30 minute headways, maybe it would be like the B32 siphoning riders off the B62 to a degree

At minimum, not as long as it runs on West st.

 

Quite frankly, whenever Hudson Yards becomes fully functional, I think it'd make more sense to route buses along 10th/11th instead of 11th & West.... So heading SB, the M12 would cut down the center of Hudson Yards by itself, and heading NB, it'd run w/ the M11 - with the difference of course being that the M12 would turn off to serve Columbus Circle.... Nothing should be running along a long enough stretch of West st the way the current route does.....

[Around the Horn]

At minimum, not as long as it runs on West st.

 

Quite frankly, whenever Hudson Yards becomes fully functional, I think it'd make more sense to route buses along 10th/11th instead of 11th & West.... So heading SB, the M12 would cut down the center of Hudson Yards by itself, and heading NB, it'd run w/ the M11 - with the difference of course being that the M12 would turn off to serve Columbus Circle.... Nothing should be running along a long enough stretch of West st the way the current route does.....

 

That works... The northbound M12 would be hitting the Manhattan West development too by that time.

[Q43LTD]

At minimum, not as long as it runs on West st.

 

Quite frankly, whenever Hudson Yards becomes fully functional, I think it'd make more sense to route buses along 10th/11th instead of 11th & West.... So heading SB, the M12 would cut down the center of Hudson Yards by itself, and heading NB, it'd run w/ the M11 - with the difference of course being that the M12 would turn off to serve Columbus Circle.... Nothing should be running along a long enough stretch of West st the way the current route does.....

I agree, West St should be served at most a few blocks. The M8 and 14 come to mind

[checkmatechamp13]

I agree, West St should be served at most a few blocks. The M8 and 14 come to mind

 

Nah, both of those routes are fine as crosstown routes and don't need any extensions north or south.

 

Rather than have the northbound M12 basically be a Columbus Circle short-turn/branch of the M11, I would rather see the bus use 12th Avenue as far north as 44th Street, then take 44th Street across to 11th Avenue so it has a better catchment area within the Hell's Kitchen area.

 

What is the configuration of 11th Avenue nowadays? I know NYCDOT was planning to make more sections two-way.

[Q43LTD]

Nah, both of those routes are fine as crosstown routes and don't need any extensions north or south.

 

Rather than have the northbound M12 basically be a Columbus Circle short-turn/branch of the M11, I would rather see the bus use 12th Avenue as far north as 44th Street, then take 44th Street across to 11th Avenue so it has a better catchment area within the Hell's Kitchen area.

 

What is the configuration of 11th Avenue nowadays? I know NYCDOT was planning to make more sections two-way.

That's not what I meant. I was speaking of them using West St as a turnaround, not extending them. As far as I know, 11 is a one-way southbound until 57 I believe

[B35 via Church]

I agree, West St should be served at most a few blocks. The M8 and 14 come to mind

I don't mind the M9's stint on west either....

 

Nah, both of those routes are fine as crosstown routes and don't need any extensions north or south.

 

Rather than have the northbound M12 basically be a Columbus Circle short-turn/branch of the M11, I would rather see the bus use 12th Avenue as far north as 44th Street, then take 44th Street across to 11th Avenue so it has a better catchment area within the Hell's Kitchen area.

 

What is the configuration of 11th Avenue nowadays? I know NYCDOT was planning to make more sections two-way.

He's not saying the M8 & M14 should be extended, he's saying if routes have to serve West st., they should be for short stretches - like the M8 & the M14....

 

The logic behind cutting across 44th I can understand, but I don't see the rationale behind serving much of nobody for a solid mile along West st (24th to 44th).... Even with the completion of Hudson Yards, West st. would still be underdeveloped... West st. itself is a dead draw -  outside of serving the piers (and the M12 certainly wasn't created for that purpose).....

 

I mean, if there's going to be a juxtaposition b/w the M12 & M11 (Lol), then they may was well get rid of the route (which is actually my stance - it should have never been created).... All I'm saying is, if they're gonna run the thing up to Columbus Circle, they're better off having the thing run up 10th than up West.....

 

11th is still one way SB from 24th to somewhere in the 40's... It just might be 44th, IDK....

Edited July 4, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't mind the M9's stint on west either....

 

 

He's not saying the M8 & M14 should be extended, he's saying if routes have to serve West st., they should be for short stretches - like the M8 & the M14....

 

The logic behind cutting across 44th I can understand, but I don't see the rationale behind serving much of nobody for a solid mile along West st (24th to 44th).... Even with the completion of Hudson Yards, West st. would still be underdeveloped... West st. itself is a dead draw - outside of serving the piers (and the M12 certainly wasn't created for that purpose).....

 

I mean, if there's going to be a juxtaposition b/w the M12 & M11 (Lol), then they may was well get rid of the route (which is actually my stance - it should have never been created).... All I'm saying is, if they're gonna run the thing up to Columbus Circle, they're better off having the thing run up 10th than up West.....

 

11th is still one way SB....

When in the hell did 44th Street become a good route for buses? It's a side street that is rather narrow, with cars double-parked all over the place. It's bad enough seeing the occasional M55 bus going down 44th. Edited July 4, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

When in the hell did 44th Street become a good route for buses? It's a side street that is rather narrow, with cars double-parked all over the place. It's bad enough seeing the occasional M55 bus going down 44th.

Not saying it's a good route, I'm saying I get the logic..... Not the same thing.

 

You would have to ask Checkmate as to why he thinks its a good route.

 

 

....As far as I know, 11 is a one-way southbound until 57 I believe

Nah, west end av (which is 2 way) turns into 11th at 59th.... It continues being 2-way until it hits somewhere in the 40's.

Edited July 4, 2017 by B35 via Church

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Since there was a discussion of amount of service on 5th & Madison Avenues, perhaps there could be something worked out either based on coverage or demand in order to maintain a similar amount of BPH while not having so many route down the corridor.

 

If it was based on coverage:

 

 

 

 

M1: Retains current routing. During the rush hour in both directions, buses will run as LIMITED.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Midday: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 6 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes WKNDS; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 15 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

 

M2: Service will terminate at 106 Street during the daytimes. Late night service is extended to the East Village.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 9 minutes WKDYS; Every 20 minutes WKNDS

Middays: Every 12 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

PM: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 20 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

 

M3: The route will operate as a LIMITED south of 110 Street during the daytime. Service would be enhanced during the daytime. LIMITED service span is similar to the current M2 span.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 10 minutes daily 

PM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 10 minutes WKNDS

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS^; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

^: Headway south of 106 Street. North of 106 Street, headways are every 15 minutes

 

 

M13: New Route, originating from FDR Drive & 105 Street, via 106 Street, Madison Avenues, towards the East Village

Headways:

AM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

If it was based on demand, the M1 and whatever route has the most through-riders past 110 Street would run along 5th Avenue, along with a new East Harlem route going down 5th Avenue. Whatever that route is would operate with the M3 headways (and if it is the M2, the late night headways would apply too). 

 

I anticipate that since the East Harlem route would essentially be more frequent than the current M106 (and serves a longer span than the M106), the M106 would be eliminated. In that case, some of the resources of the M106 would go towards adding service to the M96 if needed, in order to make transferring between said route and the M96 easier. 

========================================================================================================

 

I didn't talk about the M4 above, but it would get cut from Penn Station. Now, I want to extend the M104 from the West Harlem terminal (Which IMO is a rather random terminal. I know it's close to MHV, but it doesn't benefit much of anyone), in order to cover the M4 route. However, I feel that some M4 service should be retained for two reasons:

 

1. East-West Coverage along 110 Street, as it is the only route which covers a considerable portion of the street without turning and whatnot until you get to 125 Street (which allows for easier connections). 

 

2. In order to not make the M104 extremely unreliable (Fort Tyron Park and even Cabrini Blvd to Times Square is pretty long of a route. It's not as long as the current M4, but it is still prone to traffic delays and unreliability).

 

Unlike the other 5th/Madison route that would be shortened to 106 Street, the M4 would operate to 98 Street (between 5th and Madison Avenues).

 

Anyways, the proposal I had was as follows:

M4: 98 Street & 5th Avenue to Cabrini Boulevard or Fort Tyron Park (when open). LIMITED service would be retained in the peak direction.

M104: Service extended along Broadway north of 125 Street to 168 Street (all rush, some midday trips on weekdays, every other trip during Saturday daytime periods). 

 

 

The M4 would see a reduction in headway. On weekdays, only the LIMITED trips would operate during the rush (meaning service runs every 10 minutes during the AM rush). The route would operate every 20 minutes during midday periods, and every 15 minutes as is during the evening periods.

 

On weekends, the M4 would operate every 20 minutes in the morning and evening, every 15 minutes during midday and afternoon periods.

==========================================================================================

I would propose adding M98 service during midday periods, starting from 10:04 AM, and then at 10:30 AM. Then, service would pass every half-hour on the :00 and :30, until 9:30 PM. Between 4:00 PM and 6:00 PM, the headway would be every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes towards the Upper East Side, as an alternative to the subway, the M3, the M100, and the M101.

 

Towards Washington Heights, service would be depart at :00 and :30 starting at 11:00 AM (a 10:35 bus to Washington Heights would be added). A bus at 7:38 PM would be added in the evening, and would operate every half hour afterward on the :00 and :30, until 10:30 PM. Additionally, all midday buses, and some rush hour buses can be extended to Fort Tyron Park in order to "compensate" for the loss of the M4 along 5th & Madison (up to 68 Street though). 

 

 

Midday and evening service on weekdays may suffice for now, and perhaps weekend service could also be added at a later time. In that case, service would run every 30 minutes from 7 AM to 9 PM (SB), and from 8 AM to 10 PM (NB).

Edited August 20, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

Since there was a discussion of amount of service on 5th & Madison Avenues, perhaps there could be something worked out either based on coverage or demand in order to maintain a similar amount of BPH while not having so many route down the corridor.

 

If it was based on coverage:

 

 

 

 

M1: Retains current routing. During the rush hour in both directions, buses will run as LIMITED.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Midday: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 6 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes WKNDS; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 15 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

 

M2: Service will terminate at 106 Street during the daytimes. Late night service is extended to the East Village.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 9 minutes WKDYS; Every 20 minutes WKNDS

Middays: Every 12 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

PM: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 20 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

 

M3: The route will operate as a LIMITED south of 110 Street during the daytime. Service would be enhanced during the daytime. LIMITED service span is similar to the current M2 span.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 10 minutes daily 

PM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 10 minutes WKNDS

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS^; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

^: Headway south of 106 Street. North of 106 Street, headways are every 15 minutes

 

 

M13: New Route, originating from FDR Drive & 105 Street, via 106 Street, Madison Avenues, towards the East Village

Headways:

AM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

If it was based on demand, the M1 and whatever route has the most through-riders past 110 Street would run along 5th Avenue, along with a new East Harlem route going down 5th Avenue. Whatever that route is would operate with the M3 headways (and if it is the M2, the late night headways would apply too). 

 

I anticipate that since the East Harlem route would essentially be more frequent than the current M106 (and serves a longer span than the M106), the M106 would be eliminated. In that case, some of the resources of the M106 would go towards adding service to the M96 if needed, in order to make transferring between said route and the M96 easier. 

========================================================================================================

 

I didn't talk about the M4 above, but it would get cut from Penn Station. Now, I want to extend the M104 from the West Harlem terminal (Which IMO is a rather random terminal. I know it's close to MHV, but it doesn't benefit much of anyone), in order to cover the M4 route. However, I feel that some M4 service should be retained for two reasons:

 

1. East-West Coverage along 110 Street, as it is the only route which covers a considerable portion of the street without turning and whatnot until you get to 125 Street (which allows for easier connections). 

 

2. In order to not make the M104 extremely unreliable (Fort Tyron Park and even Cabrini Blvd to Times Square is pretty long of a route. It's not as long as the current M4, but it is still prone to traffic delays and unreliability).

 

Unlike the other 5th/Madison route that would be shortened to 106 Street, the M4 would operate to 98 Street (between 5th and Madison Avenues).

 

Anyways, the proposal I had was as follows:

M4: 98 Street & 5th Avenue to Cabrini Boulevard or Fort Tyron Park (when open). LIMITED service would be retained in the peak direction.

M104: Service extended along Broadway north of 125 Street to 168 Street (all rush, some midday trips on weekdays, every other trip during Saturday daytime periods). 

 

 

The M4 would see a reduction in headway. On weekdays, only the LIMITED trips would operate during the rush (meaning service runs every 10 minutes during the AM rush). The route would operate every 20 minutes during midday periods, and every 15 minutes as is during the evening periods.

 

On weekends, the M4 would operate every 20 minutes in the morning and evening, every 15 minutes during midday and afternoon periods.

==========================================================================================

I would propose adding M98 service during midday periods, starting from 10:04 AM, and then at 10:30 AM. Then, service would pass every half-hour on the :00 and :30, until 9:30 PM. Between 4:00 PM and 6:00 PM, the headway would be every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes towards the Upper East Side, as an alternative to the subway, the M3, the M100, and the M101.

 

Towards Washington Heights, service would be depart at :00 and :30 starting at 11:00 AM (a 10:35 bus to Washington Heights would be added). A bus at 7:38 PM would be added in the evening, and would operate every half hour afterward on the :00 and :30, until 10:30 PM. Additionally, all midday buses, and some rush hour buses can be extended to Fort Tyron Park in order to "compensate" for the loss of the M4 along 5th & Madison (up to 68 Street though). 

 

 

Midday and evening service on weekdays may suffice for now, and perhaps weekend service could also be added at a later time. In that case, service would run every 30 minutes from 7 AM to 9 PM (SB), and from 8 AM to 10 PM (NB).

 

I don't care for most of these changes. The issue isn't the routes themselves. The issue is CONGESTION. Don't punish riders who don't want to use the subway and use these buses. Retain the service and find ways to create more bus only lanes along 5th and Madison... You also forget that there is no subway along these corridors and people need these lines, not to mention large amounts of elderly etc.

[B35 via Church]

 

Since there was a discussion of amount of service on 5th & Madison Avenues, perhaps there could be something worked out either based on coverage or demand in order to maintain a similar amount of BPH while not having so many route down the corridor.

 

If it was based on coverage:

 

 

 

 

M1: Retains current routing. During the rush hour in both directions, buses will run as LIMITED.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Midday: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 6 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes WKNDS; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 15 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

 

M2: Service will terminate at 106 Street during the daytimes. Late night service is extended to the East Village.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 9 minutes WKDYS; Every 20 minutes WKNDS

Middays: Every 12 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

PM: Every 10 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 20 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

 

M3: The route will operate as a LIMITED south of 110 Street during the daytime. Service would be enhanced during the daytime. LIMITED service span is similar to the current M2 span.

 

Headways:

AM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 10 minutes daily 

PM: Every 8 minutes WKDYS; Every 10 minutes WKNDS

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS^; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

 

^: Headway south of 106 Street. North of 106 Street, headways are every 15 minutes

 

 

M13: New Route, originating from FDR Drive & 105 Street, via 106 Street, Madison Avenues, towards the East Village

Headways:

AM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 12 minutes SAT; Every 15 minutes SUN

Middays: Every 5 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

PM: Every 4 minutes WKDYS; Every 8 minutes SAT; Every 10 minutes SUN

Evenings: Every 30 minutes WKDYS; Every 15 minutes SAT; Every 20 minutes SUN

Late Night: Every 60 minutes daily

 

If it was based on demand, the M1 and whatever route has the most through-riders past 110 Street would run along 5th Avenue, along with a new East Harlem route going down 5th Avenue. Whatever that route is would operate with the M3 headways (and if it is the M2, the late night headways would apply too). 

 

I anticipate that since the East Harlem route would essentially be more frequent than the current M106 (and serves a longer span than the M106), the M106 would be eliminated. In that case, some of the resources of the M106 would go towards adding service to the M96 if needed, in order to make transferring between said route and the M96 easier. 

========================================================================================================

 

I didn't talk about the M4 above, but it would get cut from Penn Station. Now, I want to extend the M104 from the West Harlem terminal (Which IMO is a rather random terminal. I know it's close to MHV, but it doesn't benefit much of anyone), in order to cover the M4 route. However, I feel that some M4 service should be retained for two reasons:

 

1. East-West Coverage along 110 Street, as it is the only route which covers a considerable portion of the street without turning and whatnot until you get to 125 Street (which allows for easier connections). 

 

2. In order to not make the M104 extremely unreliable (Fort Tyron Park and even Cabrini Blvd to Times Square is pretty long of a route. It's not as long as the current M4, but it is still prone to traffic delays and unreliability).

 

Unlike the other 5th/Madison route that would be shortened to 106 Street, the M4 would operate to 98 Street (between 5th and Madison Avenues).

 

Anyways, the proposal I had was as follows:

M4: 98 Street & 5th Avenue to Cabrini Boulevard or Fort Tyron Park (when open). LIMITED service would be retained in the peak direction.

M104: Service extended along Broadway north of 125 Street to 168 Street (all rush, some midday trips on weekdays, every other trip during Saturday daytime periods). 

 

 

The M4 would see a reduction in headway. On weekdays, only the LIMITED trips would operate during the rush (meaning service runs every 10 minutes during the AM rush). The route would operate every 20 minutes during midday periods, and every 15 minutes as is during the evening periods.

 

On weekends, the M4 would operate every 20 minutes in the morning and evening, every 15 minutes during midday and afternoon periods.

==========================================================================================

I would propose adding M98 service during midday periods, starting from 10:04 AM, and then at 10:30 AM. Then, service would pass every half-hour on the :00 and :30, until 9:30 PM. Between 4:00 PM and 6:00 PM, the headway would be every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes towards the Upper East Side, as an alternative to the subway, the M3, the M100, and the M101.

 

Towards Washington Heights, service would be depart at :00 and :30 starting at 11:00 AM (a 10:35 bus to Washington Heights would be added). A bus at 7:38 PM would be added in the evening, and would operate every half hour afterward on the :00 and :30, until 10:30 PM. Additionally, all midday buses, and some rush hour buses can be extended to Fort Tyron Park in order to "compensate" for the loss of the M4 along 5th & Madison (up to 68 Street though). 

 

 

Midday and evening service on weekdays may suffice for now, and perhaps weekend service could also be added at a later time. In that case, service would run every 30 minutes from 7 AM to 9 PM (SB), and from 8 AM to 10 PM (NB).

 

I get what you're trying to do..... Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what you're putting down here, but more along the lines of making my own/separate point with what I'm about to say instead.....

 

I don't know how else to put this, but the gist of the problem I have with the 5th/Madison routes, is their allocation north of 110th..... The MTA having the M3 & the M4 (especially) running as far north as Ft. George/Ft. Tryon is ridiculous.... Way I see it, the M4 should be two routes, period (running between Ft. Tryon & Mt Sinal, or even 96th via 96th << and >> between Penn & 3333 Broadway - both of those would have around a 1 hour runtime).... The M3 OTOH is a trickier situation - as it's more of a supplement to the M2 (believe it or not) in Harlem & Washington Hgts.... I think the MTA realizes this, which may be a minor reason why there's no LTD on the M3....

 

I can maybe understand 5th/Madison having 1 "distance" (as QJT would say) route, but 2? I don't wanna hear there's all this distance riding from upper manhattan to east midtown & points south, because it's simply not true.... It's for the sake of being cheap, no matter how you slice it.....

 

The 3rd/Lex routes are structured better than the 5th/Madison routes.....

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

The M101 needs to be eliminated with it's service being absorbed by the M100 and M102. M102 would see Limited Stop service along Lex/3rd and M103 service would increase as well.

 

I've said on here before that only 2 routes need to run down 5th/Madison. Whichever two routes runs down the length of the corridor should have 2-3 minute peak headways each (this keeps BPH on the corridor in line with the 4 route set up) and one should cover local service while the other covers LTD service. The LTD route should be a full time limited. The other two routes should NOT run south of the '90s under any circumstance. My ideal situation would be to terminate them at 110th and 5th but that may not be a great turnaround point. I would pick the M1 and M4 (with the caveat that a significant number of peak M4 trips start/end at 135-B'Way) to serve the corridor but I am open to a case for the M2 or M3. 

[MHV184]

The M101 needs to be eliminated with it's service being absorbed by the M100 and M102. M102 would see Limited Stop service along Lex/3rd and M103 service would increase as well.

 

I've said on here before that only 2 routes need to run down 5th/Madison. Whichever two routes runs down the length of the corridor should have 2-3 minute peak headways each (this keeps BPH on the corridor in line with the 4 route set up) and one should cover local service while the other covers LTD service. The LTD route should be a full time limited. The other two routes should NOT run south of the '90s under any circumstance. My ideal situation would be to terminate them at 110th and 5th but that may not be a great turnaround point. I would pick the M1 and M4 (with the caveat that a significant number of peak M4 trips start/end at 135-B'Way) to serve the corridor but I am open to a case for the M2 or M3.

I believe the M3 should be limited because of the long route it has and as for the M4 and M1 routes they are barely limited so you might as well just make those buses local and have the M2 and M3 just go limited since both of those for what I've seen gets more of the passengers and instead limited service ending at 110st make it to the limited service to end at 125st end of story you'll have more passengers getting uptown quicker and you'll have passengers going downtown quicker as well.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

I believe the M3 should be limited because of the long route it has and as for the M4 and M1 routes they are barely limited so you might as well just make those buses local and have the M2 and M3 just go limited since both of those for what I've seen gets more of the passengers and instead limited service ending at 110st make it to the limited service to end at 125st end of story you'll have more passengers getting uptown quicker and you'll have passengers going downtown quicker as well.

 

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The M1 sees its fair share of passengers as well. The problem is the route is pretty unreliable and doesn't come as frequently as it should.

[MHV184]

The M1 sees its fair share of passengers as well. The problem is the route is pretty unreliable and doesn't come as frequently as it should.

I know that very well I used to wait for the M3 on my way home from 96st to upper manhattan and the amount of M1 that showed up was like around 1 or 2 every 20 minutes which in my opinion is a horrible wait time and as for the M2 there is always a gap in service literally miss an M2 and the next one you won't see until 30 minutes have passed as for the 3 and 4 There arrivals are kinda good except that they like to pull off the 110st is the last stop type thing but as for service I feel like your best chance to get anywhere either downtown or uptown is the M3 and M4.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

I know that very well I used to wait for the M3 on my way home from 96st to upper manhattan and the amount of M1 that showed up was like around 1 or 2 every 20 minutes which in my opinion is a horrible wait time and as for the M2 there is always a gap in service literally miss an M2 and the next one you won't see until 30 minutes have passed as for the 3 and 4 There arrivals are kinda good except that they like to pull off the 110st is the last stop type thing but as for service I feel like your best chance to get anywhere either downtown or uptown is the M3 and M4.

 

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Yes.  Years ago the M2 used to run a lot better and was more frequent, but there was less local service. Then the reverse happened... Less M2 service, more local service, so now the M3 and M4 run better than the M1 and M2.  I was actually waiting on 5th last night for a bus. I didn't feel like walking to where I was going, so I waited. Took about 15 minutes for one bus out of the M1, M2, M3 and M4 to come, and an M3 came and then an M1.  

[MHV184]

Yes. Years ago the M2 used to run a lot better and was more frequent, but there was less local service. Then the reverse happened... Less M2 service, more local service, so now the M3 and M4 run better than the M1 and M2. I was actually waiting on 5th last night for a bus. I didn't feel like walking to where I was going, so I waited. Took about 15 minutes for one bus out of the M1, M2, M3 and M4 to come, and an M3 came and then an M1.

Part of that problem of the M2 was the loss of buses at Manhattanville to Quill and Grand I've noticed this back when Manhattanville still had 6746-6752 and 6626 and 6630 back when they had these buses I used to check bus time and see how service is before choosing my way to go to upper manhattan what I used to see was there were more M2s running than you see them now and I never saw those gaps that I see now. Ever since Manhattanville lost like about 8 of their buses I don't see M2 running that frequently anymore. I thought that was also part of the problem.

 

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[Around the Horn]

Here's a bit of a bizarre idea I just thought of while reading the thread (and I'll admit I know virtually nothing about both routes, except for some rides on the lower portions):

 

Swap the M3 and M10 north of 110th Street, so that the M3 is East Village-8 St to Harlem-159 St and the M10 is Columbus Circle-57 St to Fort George-193 St.

 

Perhaps that helps with the run time problem?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not really familiar with bus routes but what about increasing the M98's service hours from 6:00 AM to 9:00 PM and extending it to Spuyten Duyvil? That Metro-North stop is currently not served by buses. If warranted, the M98 could run at all times as an SBS except nights.  

Spuyten Duyvil MNRR station? For what? Spuyten Duyvil has shuttle buses (Hudson Raillink), as does the Riverdale station.  Both stops serve the greater Riverdale neighborhood.  The Bx10 and Bx20 also serve Spuyten Duyvil/Southern Riverdale via the Independence Avenue and Henry Hudson Parkway stop where we residents walk to the station via the staircase.  

 

The decision was made to run the shuttle buses years ago to make both stations more accessible since getting to them can be a huge pain because of the very hilly topography and their location right along the Hudson River. They have been a huge success, and one reason ridership at both stations has increased.  The M98 or any other local bus would not be able to serve the station directly because of the narrow streets (the Hudson Railink buses are small on purpose for that reason), not to mention passengers would be pissed if they missed their train.  The shuttle buses generally ensure that each bus links up ON TIME to the train, which is kind of important when you're paying over $200 a month for the service.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay, so if that won't work, then just expand the M98 hours I guess?

Not if.  It simply wouldn't work.  For starters it would get stuck in the same traffic as the Bx7 along Broadway.  There's also the issue of it only serving a small portion of Spuyten Duyvil where most people simply walk to the station anyway.  The bus would have to go up to Fieldston (the richest part of Riverdale) by 246th street and then come back down to serve the other parts of Riverdale with the $$ that use the service the most.  It would be far too complicated as there are pockets throughout Riverdale that fall under this description.  The bus would have to hit Central Riverdale for sure since that is Downtown Riverdale where there is also $$, east and west of Henry Hudson Parkway, AND Spuyten Duyvil, which is why there are about FIVE different shuttle bus routes running to and from the Spuyten Duyvil station, and if you're going to serve Spuyten Duyvil, you would also have to serve the Riverdale station with something, so that idea wouldn't fly, even though Spuyten Duyvil gets more usage because it serves the denser and wealthiest parts of Riverdale overall.

 

Extending the M98 hours... The question is why and who would be served?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8