Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I did indeed say it won't work. You misread my question. I was referring to the M98 to Spuyten Duyvil.  

No, I understood your question. You just to want to expand the hours, so again, who would be served and why? Who would be your base for the extended hours? One of the issues is who is using the bus off-peak? You could run it to the Cloisters with the M4, but no one uses that bus like that for the Cloisters.

[checkmatechamp13]

@ Around The Horn: Actually, that sounds like a good idea to me. There's a lot of turnover up there (a lot of people ride from say, 145th to 125th, or some equivalent distance), so between that, and the fact they're only a couple of blocks apart up there (for those who do want to make the crosstown trip), it shouldn't affect them too badly (and hopefully the reliability improves, though to be fair, I never really had much of a problem with gaps in service on the M3). 

 

I get what you're trying to do..... Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what you're putting down here, but more along the lines of making my own/separate point with what I'm about to say instead.....

 

I don't know how else to put this, but the gist of the problem I have with the 5th/Madison routes, is their allocation north of 110th..... The MTA having the M3 & the M4 (especially) running as far north as Ft. George/Ft. Tryon is ridiculous.... Way I see it, the M4 should be two routes, period (running between Ft. Tryon & Mt Sinal, or even 96th via 96th << and >> between Penn & 3333 Broadway - both of those would have around a 1 hour runtime).... The M3 OTOH is a trickier situation - as it's more of a supplement to the M2 (believe it or not) in Harlem & Washington Hgts.... I think the MTA realizes this, which may be a minor reason why there's no LTD on the M3....

 

I can maybe understand 5th/Madison having 1 "distance" (as QJT would say) route, but 2? I don't wanna hear there's all this distance riding from upper manhattan to east midtown & points south, because it's simply not true.... It's for the sake of being cheap, no matter how you slice it.....

 

The 3rd/Lex routes are structured better than the 5th/Madison routes.....

 

If one of the issues is excess service on 110th Street, wouldn't splitting the M4 in that manner add even more service? (To be fair it's actually come in handy a decent amount of times. Make my way from Lexington to 5th, and take a quick ride on the M4 to Broadway). I'd be curious to see if there's actually demand for a standard crosstown using 110th/106th, but I'm not sure how you could effectively structure it with all the routes already using it). I suppose the obvious suggestion would be to have the route end at 106th & FDR instead of Mount Sinai or 96th & 2nd.

 

No, I understood your question. You just to want to expand the hours, so again, who would be served and why? Who would be your base for the extended hours? One of the issues is who is using the bus off-peak? You could run it to the Cloisters with the M4, but no one uses that bus like that for the Cloisters.

 

I mean, at the very least, it's a PITA to get from Washington Heights to East Harlem without the M98. You have to either sit on the M100/101 for almost an hour, or maybe take the subway down to 125th Street (or whatever crosstown street you need) and take the slow crosstown bus from there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I mean, at the very least, it's a PITA to get from Washington Heights to East Harlem without the M98. You have to either sit on the M100/101 for almost an hour, or maybe take the subway down to 125th Street (or whatever crosstown street you need) and take the slow crosstown bus from there.

I don't dispute that, but services aren't run solely based off of how difficult it is to reach certain places, otherwise the M98 would be running seven days a week. Plenty of people use the crosstown lines to get to the subway on the West Side.

[B35 via Church]

Here's a bit of a bizarre idea I just thought of while reading the thread (and I'll admit I know virtually nothing about both routes, except for some rides on the lower portions):

 

Swap the M3 and M10 north of 110th Street, so that the M3 is East Village-8 St to Harlem-159 St and the M10 is Columbus Circle-57 St to Fort George-193 St.

 

Perhaps that helps with the run time problem?

While that would shorten runtime on the M3, it'd defeat the purpose of cutting the M10 back to Columbus Circle (from Penn Station).... A north-south route like the M10 is as good as you're gonna get in Manhattan....

 

St. Nich' really needs its own route, separate from being conjoined with providing service along the 5th/Madison corridor....

 

If one of the issues is excess service on 110th Street, wouldn't splitting the M4 in that manner add even more service? (To be fair it's actually come in handy a decent amount of times. Make my way from Lexington to 5th, and take a quick ride on the M4 to Broadway). I'd be curious to see if there's actually demand for a standard crosstown using 110th/106th, but I'm not sure how you could effectively structure it with all the routes already using it). I suppose the obvious suggestion would be to have the route end at 106th & FDR instead of Mount Sinai or 96th & 2nd.

Well I've never stated how I would break it up exactly; I only mentioned the termini of each split.... If my issue is too many buses along 110th, it would defeat the purpose to suggest that the resultant routes both run along 110th....

 

* The Ft. Tryon - Mt. Sinai split would not use 110th.... It'd run along B'way to 106th, then (well, SB) buses would go Columbus, 96th (through the park), up Madison, to end at 101st.... This is really a revised idea from an original one, which stemmed from those old *extend the M104* discussions back in the day on RD (the original had buses running down 96th instead of turning off at 106th).....

 

* The 135th - Penn split would be the current/real M4 route b/w those two points....

 

Something else I wanted to say, but can't quite remember right now....

[BreeddekalbL]

Question would it be worth it to straighten out the m60 bus along broadway to 125th street and elimnate the segment on 120 st and Amsterdam?

Edited December 9, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Gotham Bus Co.]

35 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Question would it be worth it to straighten out the m60 bus along broadway to 125th street and elimnate the segment on 120 st and Amsterdam?

I think that segment is intended to serve some Columbia University housing.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Question would it be worth it to straighten out the m60 bus along broadway to 125th street and elimnate the segment on 120 st and Amsterdam?

Nope... The current routing is quicker & it's not even close.....

[aemoreira81]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:23 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

Question would it be worth it to straighten out the m60 bus along broadway to 125th street and elimnate the segment on 120 st and Amsterdam?

The street grid in the area doesn't really leave any other choice. Going up to 125 via Broadway increases the distance. It's for the same reason that the M60 terminates at 106 Street---ideal place for a turnaround where Broadway diverts to the east and West End Avenue begins.

Edited December 16, 2017 by aemoreira81

[78 via Stew Leonards]

I like this idea of shortening the really long routes a bit.

I'm thinking terminating the M101 at 125th St/1st Ave where the M100 ends is pretty good.

The M2 and M4 both could be truncated to 96th St/Madison Ave (except late nights for the M2)

install a new route (M13) making all local stops on 5th/Madison Avs between 8th St & 106th St, route will replace M106 along 106th St and terminate at 106th St/FDR Drive

keep the M3 and add full time limited service except for late nights.

extend M5 back to Houston St like the pre 2010 days

renumber M55 back to M6 and install a new southbound route via 7th Ave, 32nd St, broadway

extend the M1 back to South Ferry just like the pre 2010 days, also revert back to Park Ave south of 40th St

extend M10 and M104 down to Penn Sta, terminating at 31st St.

increase frequencies on the M102 and M103 as they are now the only two Lex/3rd Avs routes. Also implement Limited service on the M102

with the M106 eliminated, more resources will be used for the M96 and the new M13.

M98 extended back down to 34th St.

 

this is all for better Manhattan service

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

I like this idea of shortening the really long routes a bit.

I'm thinking terminating the M101 at 125th St/1st Ave where the M100 ends is pretty good.

The M2 and M4 both could be truncated to 96th St/Madison Ave (except late nights for the M2)

install a new route (M13) making all local stops on 5th/Madison Avs between 8th St & 106th St, route will replace M106 along 106th St and terminate at 106th St/FDR Drive

keep the M3 and add full time limited service except for late nights.

extend M5 back to Houston St like the pre 2010 days

renumber M55 back to M6 and install a new southbound route via 7th Ave, 32nd St, broadway

extend the M1 back to South Ferry just like the pre 2010 days, also revert back to Park Ave south of 40th St

extend M10 and M104 down to Penn Sta, terminating at 31st St.

increase frequencies on the M102 and M103 as they are now the only two Lex/3rd Avs routes. Also implement Limited service on the M102

with the M106 eliminated, more resources will be used for the M96 and the new M13.

M98 extended back down to 34th St.

 

this is all for better Manhattan service

The M101 does too much (Amsterdam LTD, 125th st crosstown, 3rd/Lex LTD).... Sounds like I'm describing a subway line or something (the runs exp. in Brooklyn, exp. in Manhattan, local in the Bronx)... Anyway, the M101 pulls in a boatload of riders because it's a multi-purpose route that almost spans along the entire borough - hell, it should pull in as many riders that it does, with the streets it runs along ..... Unlike some, I don't see truncating the M101 as fixing something that isn't broken (as the saying goes), because quite honestly, it's broken..... I don't have a problem w/ the coupling of the M100/M101 from 125th/1st, due northward...

The M98... I've said it enough times.... The truncation of it to the area around Hunter Coll. was a straight up neutering.... Even before the truncation, I thought that route was being mishandled.... You wouldn't need to have the M101 as a "superroute" if the M98 was the 3rd/Lex LTD that took the HRD to Washington Heights (instead of running across 125th & up Amsterdam after the fact to do so).... Saying this another way, the M98 should be more akin to a route like the B103 (I couldn't imagine the B103 having the service span the M98 does).... To sum it up, I think much more could be made of this route, whereas the MTA fails to see the potential with it... I personally think they want to eventually get rid of it, but whatever.... I have even heard of Washington Hgts. riders taking buses into the Bronx for access the (speaking of which) for service into Manhattan, which is plain jane insane....

The 5th/Madison routes... We all have our ideas of course, but I'd say, at minimum, there should be 1 service whose portion of it covers 8th st - 110th; I don't think anyone would argue the contrary..... After that, how service should be divvied up south of Astor pl. & north of CPN (110th) is debatable..... Personally, I'd have the M1 & M2 minimally covering said aforementioned segment, the M3 no further south than the UES, and the M4 split to running b/w [Ft. Tryon & E. Harlem] and [E. Harlem to Midtown].... The M1 is the only one of the 4 routes that would run south of Astor.... As for service to S. Ferry, IDK, but I'm rather content with some trips ending in SoHo..... Concurrently, the M3 is the only one of the 4 routes that would not run down to serve E. Midtown, etc.... Basically, instead of keeping the M3 as is & adding a LTD to it, I'd cut the route short from the north & divvy up service between the M1, M2, and a southern split of the M4 (that would run to Penn) to where no service would really be lost south of E. Harlem.... This would mean that 5th/Madison folks wouldn't be at the mercy of having 2 (really 3; the current M2 from 168th, M3 from 193rd, & M4 from Cabrini or Ft Tryon Park) routes coming from areas too deep (from the north) in Manhattan.... The MTA won't break things down like this, but I have no problem with it.

Much as I'd like to have it happen, any revival of the M6 wouldn't be the same - and we can thank our former mayor moneybags (Bloomberg) for giving the go ahead to pedestrianize parts of Broadway (a bus along Broadway in Koreatown & points south would be all for naught).... Nothing like eating Shake Shack with a side order of exhaust !

I can't say enough about this M5 split... I think most of us on here can agree that the old M6 discontinuation & the subsequent M5 extension to S. Ferry spelled doom for the route.... For as long as the M5 was b/w Houston & GWB-178th, you didn't get too many complaints about its length (as odd as it sounds)..... When buses got sent down to the ferry & runtimes reached well over 2 hours with consistency, that's when the complaints really started coming out - and rightfully so..... Took a couple of years, but the MTA's response to this, was to come up with an odd (IMO) split of the route.... The current M5 I've only 'fanned twice, but I have read about people's disapproval of the thing.... The M55 however, I've utilized quite a bit now... Even though things have gotten better since they added a couple mins. to its runtime (its inaugural runtimes were straight up ridiculous & bordered on being impossible - looked on bustime or whatever & see every single trip along the line headed in the same direction & nothing in the opposite direction), but I still don't care for the thing.... IDK if I have more of a problem right now with the M55 stopping dead around Bryant Park, or with the M5 stopping dead around Herald Square.... Leaning towards the former as I'm typing this...

One thing though.... The extending of the M10 & the M104 to Penn? I'd say that neither is necessary & both of them definitely aren't.... The real issue is the lack of service on the M20 along 7th/8th av's... I would go about running additional M20 service b/w Abingdon Sq. & Lincoln Ctr. to address that.... Reverting the M10 & running the M104 (while I do agree it ending at PABT, feels like one huge void with the route) to Penn would loom counter-productive IMO....

Edited December 23, 2017 by B35 via Church
add-on....

[checkmatechamp13]

On 12/23/2017 at 5:57 PM, B35 via Church said:

The M101 does too much (Amsterdam LTD, 125th st crosstown, 3rd/Lex LTD).... Sounds like I'm describing a subway line or something (the runs exp. in Brooklyn, exp. in Manhattan, local in the Bronx)... Anyway, the M101 pulls in a boatload of riders because it's a multi-purpose route that almost spans along the entire borough - hell, it should pull in as many riders that it does, with the streets it runs along ..... Unlike some, I don't see truncating the M101 as fixing something that isn't broken (as the saying goes), because quite honestly, it's broken..... I don't have a problem w/ the coupling of the M100/M101 from 125th/1st, due northward...

The M98... I've said it enough times.... The truncation of it to the area around Hunter Coll. was a straight up neutering.... Even before the truncation, I thought that route was being mishandled.... You wouldn't need to have the M101 as a "superroute" if the M98 was the 3rd/Lex LTD that took the HRD to Washington Heights (instead of running across 125th & up Amsterdam after the fact to do so).... Saying this another way, the M98 should be more akin to a route like the B103 (I couldn't imagine the B103 having the service span the M98 does).... To sum it up, I think much more could be made of this route, whereas the MTA fails to see the potential with it... I personally think they want to eventually get rid of it, but whatever.... I have even heard of Washington Hgts. riders taking buses into the Bronx for access the (speaking of which) for service into Manhattan, which is plain jane insane....

The 5th/Madison routes... We all have our ideas of course, but I'd say, at minimum, there should be 1 service whose portion of it covers 8th st - 110th; I don't think anyone would argue the contrary..... After that, how service should be divvied up south of Astor pl. & north of CPN (110th) is debatable..... Personally, I'd have the M1 & M2 minimally covering said aforementioned segment, the M3 no further south than the UES, and the M4 split to running b/w [Ft. Tryon & E. Harlem] and [E. Harlem to Midtown].... The M1 is the only one of the 4 routes that would run south of Astor.... As for service to S. Ferry, IDK, but I'm rather content with some trips ending in SoHo..... Concurrently, the M3 is the only one of the 4 routes that would not run down to serve E. Midtown, etc.... Basically, instead of keeping the M3 as is & adding a LTD to it, I'd cut the route short from the north & divvy up service between the M1, M2, and a southern split of the M4 (that would run to Penn) to where no service would really be lost south of E. Harlem.... This would mean that 5th/Madison folks wouldn't be at the mercy of having 2 (really 3; the current M2 from 168th, M3 from 193rd, & M4 from Cabrini or Ft Tryon Park) routes coming from areas too deep (from the north) in Manhattan.... The MTA won't break things down like this, but I have no problem with it.

Much as I'd like to have it happen, any revival of the M6 wouldn't be the same - and we can thank our former mayor moneybags (Bloomberg) for giving the go ahead to pedestrianize parts of Broadway (a bus along Broadway in Koreatown & points south would be all for naught).... Nothing like eating Shake Shack with a side order of exhaust !

I can't say enough about this M5 split... I think most of us on here can agree that the old M6 discontinuation & the subsequent M5 extension to S. Ferry spelled doom for the route.... For as long as the M5 was b/w Houston & GWB-178th, you didn't get too many complaints about its length (as odd as it sounds)..... When buses got sent down to the ferry & runtimes reached well over 2 hours with consistency, that's when the complaints really started coming out - and rightfully so..... Took a couple of years, but the MTA's response to this, was to come up with an odd (IMO) split of the route.... The current M5 I've only 'fanned twice, but I have read about people's disapproval of the thing.... The M55 however, I've utilized quite a bit now... Even though things have gotten better since they added a couple mins. to its runtime (its inaugural runtimes were straight up ridiculous & bordered on being impossible - looked on bustime or whatever & see every single trip along the line headed in the same direction & nothing in the opposite direction), but I still don't care for the thing.... IDK if I have more of a problem right now with the M55 stopping dead around Bryant Park, or with the M5 stopping dead around Herald Square.... Leaning towards the former as I'm typing this...

One thing though.... The extending of the M10 & the M104 to Penn? I'd say that neither is necessary & both of them definitely aren't.... The real issue is the lack of service on the M20 along 7th/8th av's... I would go about running additional M20 service b/w Abingdon Sq. & Lincoln Ctr. to address that.... Reverting the M10 & running the M104 (while I do agree it ending at PABT, feels like one huge void with the route) to Penn would loom counter-productive IMO....

33

The M101 runs local along Amsterdam, but if it were to be split, another advantage would be that if it were to run limited, Amsterdam wouldn't necessarily have to receive limited-stop service during the same time span that Lexington Avenue does. (Limited-stop service could be weekdays-only for example. Under the current plan, if the sign says "Limited", it pretty much would have to run limited for the entire length.

But yeah, come to think about it, I remember I made a plan where I had the M101 ending with the M100, but basically, the extra limited-stop service would go to the M103 (so you’d have short-turns running local from 125th Street to 8th Street, and limiteds running from 125th to City Hall, with some being short-turned at 8th Street as necessary). But giving it to the M98, that’s definitely a good idea. I’m guessing you would have buses go all the way down to 8th Street?

BTW, in your above post, you mentioned the southern part of the M4 would run as far north as Manhattanville, not just end at East Harlem (and the northern part would run via 96th).

One idea I just had was to have the M104 run to 14th & 8th (no real need to have it go to Abingdon Square IMO. With the way the streets run over there, it’s probably quicker to just take a shortcut over to 8th & 14th anyway) to take over the northern portion of the M20, and have the M12 go across 14th Street to 7th Avenue and take over the southern part of the M20. It would make the M12 a little more useful, since it would actually go down the whole West Side of Manhattan south of Columbus Circle.

 

[B35 via Church]

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The M101 runs local along Amsterdam, but if it were to be split, another advantage would be that if it were to run limited, Amsterdam wouldn't necessarily have to receive limited-stop service during the same time span that Lexington Avenue does. (Limited-stop service could be weekdays-only for example. Under the current plan, if the sign says "Limited", it pretty much would have to run limited for the entire length.

But yeah, come to think about it, I remember I made a plan where I had the M101 ending with the M100, but basically, the extra limited-stop service would go to the M103 (so you’d have short-turns running local from 125th Street to 8th Street, and limiteds running from 125th to City Hall, with some being short-turned at 8th Street as necessary). But giving it to the M98, that’s definitely a good idea. I’m guessing you would have buses go all the way down to 8th Street?

BTW, in your above post, you mentioned the southern part of the M4 would run as far north as Manhattanville, not just end at East Harlem (and the northern part would run via 96th).

One idea I just had was to have the M104 run to 14th & 8th (no real need to have it go to Abingdon Square IMO. With the way the streets run over there, it’s probably quicker to just take a shortcut over to 8th & 14th anyway) to take over the northern portion of the M20, and have the M12 go across 14th Street to 7th Avenue and take over the southern part of the M20. It would make the M12 a little more useful, since it would actually go down the whole West Side of Manhattan south of Columbus Circle.

I can always count on you to catch errors (we need a thumbs up icon on here)..... The M101 thing I caught when I came back from doing some shopping, when it was too late to do anything about it (I think you only get 30 mins to edit)... The M4 thing I didn't even catch, but yes, the southern split would run the current M4 route b/w 3333 Broadway & Penn, not E. Harlem & Penn.... Thanks.

I don't like how the short turns (plural) are setup on the M4 (135th to Cabrini) & (135th - Penn); this is really saying I don't like the whole M4 as is, which I don't..... At minimum, the latter should be its own route - considering the grand scheme of things (5th/Madison service)... The former however, reminds me too much of the Bx9 short turn (225th to 262nd), which I really can't stand... IDC how congested Broadway is, nothing during the PM rush should be stymied to not running from Fordham, at minimum..... I say that to say, that anything running from Cabrini blvd or Ft. Tryon pk. should not be stopping dead at 135th st during the day....

As far as making the M98 the 3rd/Lex LTD, I made up my mind way back when, to have them ending at 23rd..... The other 2 options I considered was Astor pl. & Peter Cooper.... Maybe hasty, but I would flood the market (so to speak) with this route in a similar fashion that the MTA does w/ the current M101.... Major thing that hinders it, is the state of the HRD (Harlem River dr.).... In any case, don't know if I mentioned this or not, but I wouldn't have it ending at GWB after coming off the HRD, I'd run it back south to 168th...

I believe I had an idea to split the M20 (well before the M12 came into play), but don't remember what it fully entailed.... Think it was something like [Battery park city to Chelsea Piers] & [Abingdon Sq. to Lincoln Ctr.].... I wouldn't try to phase out the M20 well, period, incl. w/ the M104 & the M12.... I would be a hypocrite for opting to run M104's that far south, when I was adamant about having the route removed from running along 42nd st..... I don't want to say the M104 has no place in the network, I just can't think of anything else to do with it to make it more useful.....

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'll be back in this thread later... Drawing up maps for visual reference purposes.

[checkmatechamp13]

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I can always count on you to catch errors (we need a thumbs up icon on here)..... The M101 thing I caught when I came back from doing some shopping, when it was too late to do anything about it (I think you only get 30 mins to edit)... The M4 thing I didn't even catch, but yes, the southern split would run the current M4 route b/w 3333 Broadway & Penn, not E. Harlem & Penn.... Thanks.

I don't like how the short turns (plural) are setup on the M4 (135th to Cabrini) & (135th - Penn); this is really saying I don't like the whole M4 as is, which I don't..... At minimum, the latter should be its own route - considering the grand scheme of things (5th/Madison service)... The former however, reminds me too much of the Bx9 short turn (225th to 262nd), which I really can't stand... IDC how congested Broadway is, nothing during the PM rush should be stymied to not running from Fordham, at minimum..... I say that to say, that anything running from Cabrini blvd or Ft. Tryon pk. should not be stopping dead at 135th st during the day....

As far as making the M98 the 3rd/Lex LTD, I made up my mind way back when, to have them ending at 23rd..... The other 2 options I considered was Astor pl. & Peter Cooper.... Maybe hasty, but I would flood the market (so to speak) with this route in a similar fashion that the MTA does w/ the current M101.... Major thing that hinders it, is the state of the HRD (Harlem River dr.).... In any case, don't know if I mentioned this or not, but I wouldn't have it ending at GWB after coming off the HRD, I'd run it back south to 168th...

I believe I had an idea to split the M20 (well before the M12 came into play), but don't remember what it fully entailed.... Think it was something like [Battery park city to Chelsea Piers] & [Abingdon Sq. to Lincoln Ctr.].... I wouldn't try to phase out the M20 well, period, incl. w/ the M104 & the M12.... I would be a hypocrite for opting to run M104's that far south, when I was adamant about having the route removed from running along 42nd st..... I don't want to say the M104 has no place in the network, I just can't think of anything else to do with it to make it more useful.....

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'll be back in this thread later... Drawing up maps for visual reference purposes.

BTW would you run artics on the M98 or standard buses? Not sure if it makes any difference but I've seen some M98 buses running through West Harlem, presumably to avoid HRD traffic. Usually down 135th to St. Nicholas but once I saw one running up Amsterdam (I guess from 125th). 

Yeah, it would definitely be overkill to have the M98 running up to Cabrini at M101-type frequencies. I'm assuming the turnaround would be the same as the Bx7?

I remember you had an idea which involved having the M104 run to Abingdon Square and the M21 extended to 1st Place to cover BPC. To me, the M20 is short enough that a pure split (like what you described at Cheslea Piers) really wouldn't be necessary (and the resulting routes would be a little too short if anything) but dividing the route among other routes in the area might work. More short-turns would be the best compromise solution (though what would be your thoughts on having the M7 run up 8th instead of 6th, and extending the M5 down to 14th Street instead of 31st Street?)

Edited December 26, 2017 by checkmatechamp13

[B35 via Church]

I'm just gonna start doing these from now on... I'm not doing full fledged maps like BM5 (you can't change the line color on the snap to roads feature, and I'm not freehanding all these ideas [which is the only way you can change the line color] - props to him on that note), but instead, displaying ideas of proposals that don't overlap or intersect too much on one map....

Like this:

M9: Cutback to Park Row, slight diversion around Peter Cooper,

"M54": southern portion of an M4 split (Penn - 135th/Broadway),

M98LTD: Extension to 23rd st, diversion to 168th st

>> Map Link <<

 

 

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm just gonna start doing these from now on... I'm not doing full fledged maps like BM5 (you can't change the line color on the snap to roads feature, and I'm not freehanding all these ideas [which is the only way you can change the line color] - props to him on that note), but instead, displaying ideas of proposals that don't overlap or intersect too much on one map....

Like this:

M9: Cutback to Park Row, slight diversion around Peter Cooper,

"M54": southern portion of an M4 split (Penn - 135th/Broadway),

M98LTD: Extension to 23rd st, diversion to 168th st

>> Map Link <<

That M9 loop is huge. You'd probably see really low ridership since someone right next to one stop on the loop will have to schlep all the way to the other side, and vice versa.

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

BTW would you run artics on the M98 or standard buses? Not sure if it makes any difference but I've seen some M98 buses running through West Harlem, presumably to avoid HRD traffic. Usually down 135th to St. Nicholas but once I saw one running up Amsterdam (I guess from 125th). 

Yeah, it would definitely be overkill to have the M98 running up to Cabrini at M101-type frequencies. I'm assuming the turnaround would be the same as the Bx7?

I remember you had an idea which involved having the M104 run to Abingdon Square and the M21 extended to 1st Place to cover BPC. To me, the M20 is short enough that a pure split (like what you described at Cheslea Piers) really wouldn't be necessary (and the resulting routes would be a little too short if anything) but dividing the route among other routes in the area might work. More short-turns would be the best compromise solution (though what would be your thoughts on having the M7 run up 8th instead of 6th, and extending the M5 down to 14th Street instead of 31st Street?)

On the M98, I'd run the 40'-ers - and yup, the turnaround scenario would be exactly the same as the Bx7 (check out the map when you have a chance)....

That's the only other thing I can think of (addt'l M20 service north of either Abingdon sq, or 14th), b/c right now, I'm not fond of running the M10 or the M104 to Chelsea, at minimum.... The counter-argument to addt'l short turn M20's will end up being is, well - the M20 doesn't bring in enough riders to begin with, so what's the point?

I didn't draw it on my 2nd map yet, but the only thing I have set up for the M20 is to cut it back to the M9's current terminal.... I maybe in the minority with this, but I don't feel the extension to S. Ferry is worth it - it's been quite some time now since the extension & usage to me still seems to be more or less the same - Anemic.... Nobody too far north of BPC takes it to the Ferry (they all dive for the ) & BPC folks are too busy taking seas of taxis to get everywhere these days.... Amazing how many taxi's frequent that area, you would think there's an airport nearby or something.... BPC folks to me, of the ones that use public buses, seem to patronize & herald the M22 - so I'm giving them cake & extending that to the current M9 terminal also..... The M9 as a result, gets cut back to Park Row (the current routing b/w Park row & BPC is wasteful).....

Two problems I have with running the M7 up 8th is that it would [leave 6th south of Herald Sq. with just the M55] & [it would make the M7 more unreliable than it already is (which is another reason I would inject 8th av w/ more M20 service, instead of some other route running along it right now)]..... IDK what the schedules show, but in real time, the M55 arrives far too sporadically for my liking.... As is, that route should be a supplement of something, not the only route serving anything for too long a stretch....

To eradicate the first problem I have (at least), an M5 of sorts would be extended down to 14th (via 5th obv.), to take the place of the NB M7 (via 6th) for return trip back to Washington Hgts. (which I like the idea of, since my main sticking point with the old M5 split was that it unfairly/unjustly severed the overlapping riderbases south of Columbus Cir.).....

31st st (M5) & 44th (M55) both reek as terminals IMO... Just about any idea to do away with them both, I'd be in favor of.

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That M9 loop is huge. You'd probably see really low ridership since someone right next to one stop on the loop will have to schlep all the way to the other side, and vice versa.

Each route shown is its respective routing in both directions.... There's no loop to be spoken of.

Edited December 26, 2017 by B35 via Church

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

On the M98, I'd run the 40'-ers - and yup, the turnaround scenario would be exactly the same as the Bx7 (check out the map when you have a chance)....

That's the only other thing I can think of (addt'l M20 service north of either Abingdon sq, or 14th), b/c right now, I'm not fond of running the M10 or the M104 to Chelsea, at minimum.... The counter-argument to addt'l short turn M20's will end up being is, well - the M20 doesn't bring in enough riders to begin with, so what's the point?

I didn't draw it on my 2nd map yet, but the only thing I have set up for the M20 is to cut it back to the M9's current terminal.... I maybe in the minority with this, but I don't feel the extension to S. Ferry is worth it - it's been quite some time now since the extension & usage to me still seems to be more or less the same - Anemic.... Nobody too far north of BPC takes it to the Ferry (they all dive for the ) & BPC folks are too busy taking seas of taxis to get everywhere these days.... Amazing how many taxi's frequent that area, you would think there's an airport nearby or something.... BPC folks to me, of the ones that use public buses, seem to patronize & herald the M22 - so I'm giving them cake & extending that to the current M9 terminal also..... The M9 as a result, gets cut back to Park Row (the current routing b/w Park row & BPC is wasteful).....

Two problems I have with running the M7 up 8th is that it would [leave 6th south of Herald Sq. with just the M55] & [it would make the M7 more unreliable than it already is (which is another reason I would inject 8th av w/ more M20 service, instead of some other route running along it right now)]..... IDK what the schedules show, but in real time, the M55 arrives far too sporadically for my liking.... As is, that route should be a supplement of something, not the only route serving anything for too long a stretch....

To eradicate the first problem I have (at least), an M5 of sorts would be extended down to 14th (via 5th obv.), to take the place of the NB M7 (via 6th) for return trip back to Washington Hgts. (which I like the idea of, since my main sticking point with the old M5 split was that it unfairly/unjustly severed the overlapping riderbases south of Columbus Cir.).....

31st st (M5) & 44th (M55) both reek as terminals IMO... Just about any idea to do away with them both, I'd be in favor of.

Each route shown is its respective routing in both directions.... There's no loop to be spoken of.

BTW not that it's a big deal but what would you do for overnight service? Just have the M102/103 on 3rd/Lexington and the M101 covering the 125th-Amsterdam corridor? (So overnight headways on 3rd/Lexington would go from 20 to 30 minutes)

So is traffic worse on 6th or 8th? 6th is closer to the "heart" of Midtown, but 8th is closer to the Lincoln Tunnel. Both streets seem to have some type of (poorly enforced) bus lane according to Google Streetview.

The M20 to South Ferry was to maintain the BPC-South Ferry connection when the Downtown Connector doesn't run (it only runs from 10am to 8pm IIRC), since they cut the M9 back to City Hall in 2010. The train from Rector requires you to cross over the West Side Highway. There are times that the approach to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel gets backed up, but other than that, I don't see any advantage to severing that connection, since the mileage saved is minimal.

On a side note, for that turnaround scenario on the northern portion of the M54, I would have the last stop be 135th & Amsterdam (and maybe change it to run clockwise instead of your counterclockwise routing). It's a sticking point with me that the terminal should be approximately halfway through the turnaround scenario, but also I do think there's some potential to get some CCNY kids who want to use it as a connection to East Harlem (I would personally extend the M104 down Convent to end at 145th & St. Nicholas to provide a connection to both the IND and but in the absence of that, this M54 would be the next best thing)

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Each route shown is its respective routing in both directions.... There's no loop to be spoken of.

"Loop" was a bad choice of words; I meant the section around Peter Cooper Village. Who's going to walk three avenue blocks to catch a bus in the other direction?

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

BTW not that it's a big deal but what would you do for overnight service? Just have the M102/103 on 3rd/Lexington and the M101 covering the 125th-Amsterdam corridor? (So overnight headways on 3rd/Lexington would go from 20 to 30 minutes)

So is traffic worse on 6th or 8th? 6th is closer to the "heart" of Midtown, but 8th is closer to the Lincoln Tunnel. Both streets seem to have some type of (poorly enforced) bus lane according to Google Streetview.

The M20 to South Ferry was to maintain the BPC-South Ferry connection when the Downtown Connector doesn't run (it only runs from 10am to 8pm IIRC), since they cut the M9 back to City Hall in 2010. The train from Rector requires you to cross over the West Side Highway. There are times that the approach to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel gets backed up, but other than that, I don't see any advantage to severing that connection, since the mileage saved is minimal.

On a side note, for that turnaround scenario on the northern portion of the M54, I would have the last stop be 135th & Amsterdam (and maybe change it to run clockwise instead of your counterclockwise routing). It's a sticking point with me that the terminal should be approximately halfway through the turnaround scenario, but also I do think there's some potential to get some CCNY kids who want to use it as a connection to East Harlem (I would personally extend the M104 down Convent to end at 145th & St. Nicholas to provide a connection to both the IND and but in the absence of that, this M54 would be the next best thing)

- Originally, I had the M98 running local between 23rd & 125th, overnights... The M102 & 103 I'd leave alone.... Don't know if it would be worth it to not run the M98 overnights & to add more overnight service to the M103 instead.....

- During the AM rush, it's 8th av, no questions asked .... During the PM rush, both are horrible, but I have to say that 8th is a little more worse.... You're in a standstill in traffic longer on 8th than you are on 6th (that's not counting gamenights; MSG), I find.....

- Lol.... I wasn't even thinking about Rector; I seriously doubt much of any BPC patrons bother with that station.... IMO, if you're gonna bust your ass to get to that station, you may as well walk to S. Ferry subway instead..... In any event, if anything, BPC folks tend to take the M22 to Chambers or that Downtown connector (I was trying to remember the name of the thing in my last reply) to/wards S. Ferry.... You will get a certain few that'll just take the M20 NB outright out of BPC altogether, instead of dealing with the subway...... Furthermore, I'm not concerned with the mileage saved (in this case), I'm concerned with just how poorly utilized the M20 is b/w BPC & S. Ferry..... And since the M20 itself more or less parallels the 7th av IRT, you're not going to get much of any "distance" riders from the north taking it to the Ferry.... What I've noticed over the years is that, folks still on SB M20's south of 14th tend to tank/fizzle out at Chambers....

- That turnaround scenario exists (and IDK when it happened) due to the fact that the DOT apparently banned left turns from Broadway NB @ 135th..... The collateral benefit I see from it, is exactly what you mentioned (CCNY students)..... That's literally the only reason I have it like that.... Now if (unbeknownst to me) buses are allowed to make that turn in question, I would just have the "M54" loop onto Broadway SB, to end in front of 3333 Broadway.....

 

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

"Loop" was a bad choice of words; I meant the section around Peter Cooper Village. Who's going to walk three avenue blocks to catch a bus in the other direction?

I have to fix something on the map (google moved one of the lines down to 20th... the line on 20th should be on 23rd instead)... <===== Fixed

What the idea entails around Peter Cooper, is the shifting of the Bellevue bound M9 along 14th instead of having it run on 20th.... Barely anyone uses the thing on 20th (folks are gunning for the M23 instead), and ever since the M9 got altered to where it no longer serves Union Sq, it lost the connection to the (L).... I'd restore a connection to the back, by way of having it serve 1st av. subway..... Everything else is what the current M9 does up there....

I have no problem explaining myself, but I still don't get what your particular issue is regarding three avenue blocks....

Edited December 26, 2017 by B35 via Church
text in gold...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

13 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That M9 loop is huge. You'd probably see really low ridership since someone right next to one stop on the loop will have to schlep all the way to the other side, and vice versa.

It makes no sense for the northbound M9 to use 14th Street instead of 20th Street.

[Statty]

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I would personally extend the M104 down Convent to end at 145th & St. Nicholas to provide a connection to both the IND and

This is actually a pretty good idea. So rather than ending at 129 and Amsterdam, it'll continue straight to 145 and make that right to St. Nicholas? 

If so, perhaps the S/B trip would go down st nicholas all the way down to 125, make a right and regular route.

I can see a lot more ridership being picked up, than the current situation over on convent.

[Around the Horn]

20 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm just gonna start doing these from now on... I'm not doing full fledged maps like BM5 (you can't change the line color on the snap to roads feature, and I'm not freehanding all these ideas [which is the only way you can change the line color] - props to him on that note), but instead, displaying ideas of proposals that don't overlap or intersect too much on one map....

Like this:

M9: Cutback to Park Row, slight diversion around Peter Cooper,

"M54": southern portion of an M4 split (Penn - 135th/Broadway),

M98LTD: Extension to 23rd st, diversion to 168th st

>> Map Link <<

 

 

 

 

Where would the southern terminal of the M4 be?

[checkmatechamp13]

23 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Where would the southern terminal of the M4 be?

He mentioned it in an earlier post: It would be somewhere in East Harlem (perhaps 101st & Madison, perhaps the terminal at 96th Street), and buses would run across 96th instead of 110th. 

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

- Lol.... I wasn't even thinking about Rector; I seriously doubt much of any BPC patrons bother with that station.... IMO, if you're gonna bust your ass to get to that station, you may as well walk to S. Ferry subway instead..... In any event, if anything, BPC folks tend to take the M22 to Chambers or that Downtown connector (I was trying to remember the name of the thing in my last reply) to/wards S. Ferry.... You will get a certain few that'll just take the M20 NB outright out of BPC altogether, instead of dealing with the subway...... Furthermore, I'm not concerned with the mileage saved (in this case), I'm concerned with just how poorly utilized the M20 is b/w BPC & S. Ferry..... And since the M20 itself more or less parallels the 7th av IRT, you're not going to get much of any "distance" riders from the north taking it to the Ferry.... What I've noticed over the years is that, folks still on SB M20's south of 14th tend to tank/fizzle out at Chambers....

- That turnaround scenario exists (and IDK when it happened) due to the fact that the DOT apparently banned left turns from Broadway NB @ 135th..... The collateral benefit I see from it, is exactly what you mentioned (CCNY students)..... That's literally the only reason I have it like that.... Now if (unbeknownst to me) buses are allowed to make that turn in question, I would just have the "M54" loop onto Broadway SB, to end in front of 3333 Broadway.....

What the idea entails around Peter Cooper, is the shifting of the Bellevue bound M9 along 14th instead of having it run on 20th.... Barely anyone uses the thing on 20th (folks are gunning for the M23 instead), and ever since the M9 got altered to where it no longer serves Union Sq, it lost the connection to the (L).... I'd restore a connection to the back, by way of having it serve 1st av. subway..... Everything else is what the current M9 does up there....

I have no problem explaining myself, but I still don't get what your particular issue is regarding three avenue blocks....

14

When I take the  to South Ferry, I see a decent amount of people getting off at Rector, and from a lot of their conversations (and also since I ride a lot in the late evening, when people aren't really doing to work or tourist-type stuff), it seems like a decent amount of them are crossing over the bridge over the West Side Highway to get to BPC. Percentage-wise (in terms of BPC's overall population), it might not be much, but I'd definitely say it rivals the amount taking the M22 (or M20/22 westbound) to/from the Chambers Street station nowadays.

I think the M14A/D is sufficient for access from the LES to the train. The M14A runs as far south as Grand Street, and then you also have the M15 & M103 once you start getting towards Chinatown. I don't think it's worth the loss of north-south coverage in that section of Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village, even if the M23 is the more popular route over there. If you're trying to get from say, Delancey/Essex or from Houston Street over to the northern part of Peter Cooper Village, it's a long walk from 14th Street.

I think what they're saying is that the eastbound and westbound (or northbound and southbound if you prefer) legs of the M9 are too far apart. So if somebody lives by 23rd Street, they have easy access for southbound service, but coming home, they have to walk all the way from 14th Street, which means they're less likely to consider it compared to if the two portions were closer together. (In other words, the usefulness of two-way transit is more than double the usefulness of one-way transit). 

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

It makes no sense for the northbound M9 to use 14th Street instead of 20th Street.

There is a logic behind it: To serve the train. Whether you agree with that logic is a different story (And of course, you of all people don't put your own logic forward....)

50 minutes ago, Statty said:

This is actually a pretty good idea. So rather than ending at 129 and Amsterdam, it'll continue straight to 145 and make that right to St. Nicholas? 

If so, perhaps the S/B trip would go down st nicholas all the way down to 125, make a right and regular route.

I can see a lot more ridership being picked up, than the current situation over on convent.

1

I'm torn between having it take 125th-Amsterdam-145th-St. Nicholas (and then St. Nicholas-141st-Amsterdam-125th on the return trip), or having it use Convent instead of Amsterdam. The advantage of Convent is that it saves students coming from the center of the campus from having to walk up the hill to Amsterdam. 

Whatever street it runs down (Convent or Amsterdam), it would take the same street in both directions south of 141st Street (since 141st is just the turnaround scenario). I wouldn't have it split between both sides of St. Nicholas Park.

But yeah, the current M104 terminal is nothing more than a relic from when the old Amsterdam Depot was in operation. I mean, to terminate at the foot of a hill like that when the topography of that area is part of the reason the bus routes see the ridership they do is just dumb.

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

It makes no sense for the northbound M9 to use 14th Street instead of 20th Street.

The thing is wasteful along 20th st; I'm not seeing the benefit of keeping it as such..... The M9 only turned off on 20th as part of its former turnaround scenario, since it used to end at 23rd/1st (SE corner)... It later got sent up to Bellevue sometime in 2013, or whatever year that was.... The current NB M9 in that area (Av. C > 20th > 1st) is just as wasteful as the old M21 NB pattern to Bellevue (Av C. > 23rd > 1st)....

 

 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

When I take the  to South Ferry, I see a decent amount of people getting off at Rector, and from a lot of their conversations (and also since I ride a lot in the late evening, when people aren't really doing to work or tourist-type stuff), it seems like a decent amount of them are crossing over the bridge over the West Side Highway to get to BPC. Percentage-wise (in terms of BPC's overall population), it might not be much, but I'd definitely say it rivals the amount taking the M22 (or M20/22 westbound) to/from the Chambers Street station nowadays.

I think the M14A/D is sufficient for access from the LES to the train. The M14A runs as far south as Grand Street, and then you also have the M15 & M103 once you start getting towards Chinatown. I don't think it's worth the loss of north-south coverage in that section of Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village, even if the M23 is the more popular route over there. If you're trying to get from say, Delancey/Essex or from Houston Street over to the northern part of Peter Cooper Village, it's a long walk from 14th Street.

I think what they're saying is that the eastbound and westbound (or northbound and southbound if you prefer) legs of the M9 are too far apart. So if somebody lives by 23rd Street, they have easy access for southbound service, but coming home, they have to walk all the way from 14th Street, which means they're less likely to consider it compared to if the two portions were closer together. (In other words, the usefulness of two-way transit is more than double the usefulness of one-way transit).

- That's definitely a new phenomenon then, because when I used to get off work (after working o/t) & would either [take the to Rector or S. Ferry] or [walk from Christopher] to get to the BM's down by Battery pl, Rector was more or less a ghost town....

- Your point regarding the M14's is a fair one, but I don't see what you're saying in that example in the 2nd paragraph... If you're trying to get from [Delancey/Essex] or from [Houston st.] to the northern part of Peter Cooper, it would make no difference if the NB M9 took 20th or 14th, since you would be riding up to 23rd anyway.... There's nothing saying you have to get off at 14th; I'm not ending the M9 at 14th st....

- Aye, well, if that's the argument being made, my immediate response to that is - So what's stopping these people from taking the current NB M9 in the area with any real conviction then? That's an honest question by the way.... I state it as such, because I see that (your summary of the overall point, in parentheses) in this particular instance, as a non-issue...... If 2 way transit was/is of a certain importance for those folks, they'd be clamoring for bi-directional service on 20th (or back on 23rd, which is what was had when the M21 ran up to Bellevue).....

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

There is a logic behind it: To serve the train. Whether you agree with that logic is a different story (And of course, you of all people don't put your own logic forward....)

....like that answer of his to my recent question in the Queens thread.

3 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Where would the southern terminal of the M4 be?

I'm in the middle of drawing the 2nd Manhattan proposals map (which contains the northern split of the M4, co-incidentally enough), but the southern terminal of the northern split of the M4, I've decided, would end at the hospital (Mt Sinai)....

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'm torn between having it take 125th-Amsterdam-145th-St. Nicholas (and then St. Nicholas-141st-Amsterdam-125th on the return trip), or having it use Convent instead of Amsterdam. The advantage of Convent is that it saves students coming from the center of the campus from having to walk up the hill to Amsterdam. 

Whatever street it runs down (Convent or Amsterdam), it would take the same street in both directions south of 141st Street (since 141st is just the turnaround scenario). I wouldn't have it split between both sides of St. Nicholas Park.

But yeah, the current M104 terminal is nothing more than a relic from when the old Amsterdam Depot was in operation. I mean, to terminate at the foot of a hill like that when the topography of that area is part of the reason the bus routes see the ridership they do is just dumb.

Funny enough, the M104 stops being useful once it enters Harlem... Either the M104 should run well north of Harlem, or terminate short of it altogether....

Any way you (or anyone else) can make the thing useful north of 125th, let's have at it.....

Personally, I'd want no part of having anything run along Convent... I remember when the M18 ran.... There would be school security moving cones & shit, just so that buses can maneuver through that part of the campus (not just for the M18, but other vehicles as well)..... Shit was a PITA; f***in thing used to run like 2 mph b/w the campus & 145th (albeit I believe that was for other reasons as well... like crawling the entire route b/c much of no one took the frickin thing)... No thanks.

Edited December 27, 2017 by B35 via Church