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Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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Just now, checkmatechamp13 said:

Good, then those people (in addition to the majority of M34/34A riders) will have better service, because that's exactly what I'm proposing: More service to both of those destinations.

How is it better service if they don't have buses running where they once did?  

Quote

I think they should combine both branches into one route that travels from 34th & 12th to Waterside Plaza. Eastbound/southbound buses would run down the FDR Drive between 34th Street & 23rd Street (so that a connection to the northbound M15 and NYU Medical Center at 34th & 1st is maintained). Peter Cooper Village is still served by the M23 for crosstown service.

For the PABT, the southern entrance at 40th Street is 6 blocks from 34th Street, and for those that don't want to walk it (or can't walk it), there's the subway and the M11/M20 available (depending on the direction). By comparison, there's no alternative to the western portion of the M34, so those riders are stuck waiting for a 12th Avenue-bound bus in particular.

At the very least, I would get rid of the eastern branch (which it looks like the MTA is already leaning towards, since they rerouted those trips to Waterside). There's a bus that circulates around East Midtown that is designed for ferry riders anyway.

So full of $hit...

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15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

How is it better service if they don't have buses running where they once did?  

So full of $hit...

Right, so the buses that currently run to the PABT would be redirected to 34th & 12th (which is in West Midtown), and the (remaining) buses that run to Marginal Street would be redirected to Waterside Plaza (but in a manner that still serves riders at 34th & 1st eastbound, which is one short block from Marginal Street). So Waterside Plaza and West Midtown would be the primary beneficiaries of this plan (which I so selfishly created) , but riders along the core portion benefit from less bunching, because at least the buses have two consistent terminals (and also, 9th Avenue doesn't have a bus lane, whereas the western part of 34th Street does).

Funny though, adding more frequent service (and just blindly doubling the amount of buses to both branches) would happen to benefit you, who works in Midtown.....

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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4 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Right, so the buses that currently run to the PABT would be redirected to 34th & 12th (which is in West Midtown), and the (remaining) buses that run to Marginal Street would be redirected to Waterside Plaza (but in a manner that still serves riders at 34th & 1st eastbound, which is one short block from Marginal Street). So Waterside Plaza and West Midtown would be the primary beneficiaries of this plan, which I so selfishly created...

Funny though, adding more frequent service (and just blindly doubling the amount of buses to both branches) would happen to benefit you, who works in Midtown.....

There's nothing funny about it because I rarely if ever use the M34, so it wouldn't benefit me.   Adding service seems like a no-brainer, given how infrequent each branch is.  While we're talking about adding service, you need to learn how to read.  All I said was add service. I didn't say how much so I'm not sure where you got this "doubling service blindly" from.  Your plans usually involve screwing someone over, supposedly to "benefit" everyone.  <_< 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I don't necessarily have a problem with running all M34's to Waterside (and few people remain on along the 2 Avenue stops anyways so I guess it can be justified), but I cannot agree with sending every bus to Javits. The West Side does not need so much bus service, the M34 suffices. Additionally, I have seen people use the buses (during off peak hours) north of 34 Street. IDK how packed buses are during the rush, but it makes sense to run them to PABT. Without it, many who work along 34th would have to walk up to 42 Street or rely on the M11/M20 , neither of which is pleasant to have to connect/transfer to (each for their own reasons). People probably have long commutes before getting to the PABT anyway, and that would create a disservice for those going beyond PABT.

 

I would look into attempting to bring back the M27 (perhaps during the rush hours), and sending the M50 somewhere else on the east side. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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4 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with running all M34's to Waterside (and few people remain on along the 2 Avenue stops anyways so I guess it can be justified), but I cannot agree with sending every bus to Javits. The West Side does not need so much bus service, the M34 suffices. Additionally, I have seen people use the buses (during off peak hours) north of 34 Street. IDK how packed buses are during the rush, but it makes sense to run them to PABT. Without it, many who work along 34th would have to walk up to 42 Street or rely on the M11/M20 , neither of which is pleasant to have to connect/transfer to (each for their own reasons). People probably have long commutes before getting to the PABT anyway, and that would create a disservice for those going beyond PABT.

 

I would look into attempting to bring back the M27 (perhaps during the rush hours), and sending the M50 somewhere else on the east side. 

Someone who understands the commutes of others instead of thinking of themselves constantly.  

Where exactly would you send the M50 though?  Let's remember why it was cut back from the UN in the first place.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There's nothing funny about it because I rarely if ever use the M34, so it wouldn't benefit me.   Adding service seems like a no-brainer, given how infrequent each branch is.  While we're talking about adding service, you need to learn how to read.  All I said was add service. I didn't say how much so I'm not sure where you got this "doubling service blindly" from.  Your plans usually involve screwing someone over, supposedly to "benefit" everyone.  <_< 

Last I checked, shorter wait times are a benefit, not a "benefit".

And the only way for your proposal to benefit West Midtown and Waterside Plaza riders (which we've already established I'm not one of them, so therefore, this proposal has nothing to do with my self-interest) more than mine is for you to double (or more than double) the existing frequencies....mathematically, that's the only possible way. But you don't understand numbers (and are proud of it), so it's like talking to a wall.

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with running all M34's to Waterside (and few people remain on along the 2 Avenue stops anyways so I guess it can be justified), but I cannot agree with sending every bus to Javits. The West Side does not need so much bus service, the M34 suffices. Additionally, I have seen people use the buses (during off peak hours) north of 34 Street. IDK how packed buses are during the rush, but it makes sense to run them to PABT. Without it, many who work along 34th would have to walk up to 42 Street or rely on the M11/M20 , neither of which is pleasant to have to connect/transfer to (each for their own reasons). People probably have long commutes before getting to the PABT anyway, and that would create a disservice for those going beyond PABT.

I would look into attempting to bring back the M27 (perhaps during the rush hours), and sending the M50 somewhere else on the east side. 

3

The thing to consider is that the PABT is physically at 40th Street, not 42nd Street. So you're talking an extra 6 blocks of walking from 34th Street (and that's assuming you actually catch an M34A and don't just give up and walk from the M34 anyway). Additionally, depending on which side of the terminal your bus arrives on (there's slightly more gates on the 8th Avenue side. For example, the 300-level gates are all on 8th Avenue), you also have to backtrack a block to 9th Avenue to catch the M34A (and also cross 42nd Street regardless)

But true, I will say that at least that branch connects to a major hub and gets its share of riders.

And I would also tend to agree with bringing back the M27. With how slow they are, a lot of the ridership on crosstown routes depends on the frequency, so by bumping up the frequency on the core part of 49th/50th Street, that should bring back ridership to that corridor. But I'd leave it ending at 1st Avenue with the M50. The M50 had low ridership to the UN, and heading north towards the Queensborough Bridge would only serve to add another source of congestion and delays.

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8 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Last I checked, shorter wait times are a benefit, not a "benefit".

And the only way for your proposal to benefit West Midtown and Waterside Plaza riders (which we've already established I'm not one of them, so therefore, this proposal has nothing to do with my self-interest) more than mine is for you to double (or more than double) the existing frequencies....mathematically, that's the only possible way. But you don't understand numbers (and are proud of it), so it's like talking to a wall.

The thing to consider is that the PABT is physically at 40th Street, not 42nd Street. So you're talking an extra 6 blocks of walking from 34th Street (and that's assuming you actually catch an M34A and don't just give up and walk from the M34 anyway). Additionally, depending on which side of the terminal your bus arrives on (there's slightly more gates on the 8th Avenue side. For example, the 300-level gates are all on 8th Avenue), you also have to backtrack a block to 9th Avenue to catch the M34A (and also cross 42nd Street regardless)

But true, I will say that at least that branch connects to a major hub and gets its share of riders.

And I would also tend to agree with bringing back the M27. With how slow they are, a lot of the ridership on crosstown routes depends on the frequency, so by bumping up the frequency on the core part of 49th/50th Street, that should bring back ridership to that corridor. But I'd leave it ending at 1st Avenue with the M50. The M50 had low ridership to the UN, and heading north towards the Queensborough Bridge would only serve to add another source of congestion and delays.

So you're telling me you don't use the M34.... BS... The 34th Street corridor does not have to necessarily have service upped on both branches to improve.

Of course we established where you don't go, hence why you're hell bent on screwing those riders over...

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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20 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So you're telling me you don't use the M34.... BS... The 34th Street corridor does not have to necessarily have service upped on both branches to improve.

Sure, believe what you want to believe. Maybe in some alternate universe, some version of me is using the M34 on a regular basis.....Last I checked, I live on Staten Island, work on Staten Island, and attend school in West Harlem, none of which is anywhere near the 34th Street corridor....but whatever floats your boat......

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Of course we established where you don't go, hence why you're hell bent on screwing those riders over...

Alright, and I'm also hell-bent on providing benefits to riders on a route that doesn't go where I go (and would remain doing so). 

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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43 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Sure, believe what you want to believe. Maybe in some alternate universe, some version of me is using the M34 on a regular basis.....Last I checked, I live on Staten Island, work on Staten Island, and attend school in West Harlem, none of which is anywhere near the 34th Street corridor....but whatever floats your boat......

Alright, and I'm also hell-bent on providing benefits to riders on a route that doesn't go where I go (and would remain doing so). 

Right yet you claim you take the express bus into Manhattan, so you're never in Manhattan and then you talk about your subway trips. You're full of $hit. One minute you travel all over and the next minute you only travel within Staten Island. You can't make this stuff up! :lol:

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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28 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Right yet you claim you take the express bus into Manhattan, so you're never in Manhattan and then you talk about your subway trips. You're full of $hit. One minute you travel all over and the next minute you only travel within Staten Island. You can't make this stuff up! :lol:

Logically, I have to take the express bus to either Lower or Midtown Manhattan and transfer to the subway there to reach Upper Manhattan. Or am I not allowed to work and live in one borough and attend school in another? (**shrugs**) Too late, I guess, already done.

In any case, a couple of more proposals:

There used to be trolley tracks down the west end of 181st Street, leading down the hill that leads to Riverside Drive. I think the M5 should be extended a couple of blocks west in order to serve this neighborhood (which is geographically close to the M4/98 and (A) train, if it weren't for the hill)

Also, going back to the M101 split discussion we had before, one alternative to branching the M98 to Inwood and Washington Heights (whether it's 168th Street/NY Presbyterian or the current terminal) would be to have it run up Broadway and terminate in Inwood (that way, it serves both Washington Heights & Inwood without branching). 

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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19 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Logically, I have to take the express bus to either Lower or Midtown Manhattan and transfer to the subway there to reach Upper Manhattan. Or am I not allowed to work and live in one borough and attend school in another? (**shrugs**) Too late, I guess, already done.

In any case, a couple of more proposals:

There used to be trolley tracks down the west end of 181st Street, leading down the hill that leads to Riverside Drive. I think the M5 should be extended a couple of blocks west in order to serve this neighborhood (which is geographically close to the M4/98 and (A) train, if it weren't for the hill)

Also, going back to the M101 split discussion we had before, one alternative to branching the M98 to Inwood and Washington Heights (whether it's 168th Street/NY Presbyterian or the current terminal) would be to have it run up Broadway and terminate in Inwood (that way, it serves both Washington Heights & Inwood without branching). 

Just cut the crap and stop with the lies and you'll be fine. The way you "claim" to travel so much, I find it hard to believe that you don't use the M34, yet you have intimate knowledge of where it gets its riders from.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Just cut the crap and stop with the lies and you'll be fine. The way you "claim" to travel so much, I find it hard to believe that you don't use the M34, yet you have intimate knowledge of where it gets its riders from.

I believe the quotation marks should be around "travel" and not "claim". 

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On 2/23/2018 at 2:55 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

One of the issues that has annoyed me with the M34/34A +SBS+ is that on the branches, service is infrequent. The MTA already rerouted some M34 buses (from 12th Avenue) to run to/from Waterside Plaza (including the last few buses of the night), showing you that they consider that branch an afterthought.

I think they should combine both branches into one route that travels from 34th & 12th to Waterside Plaza. Eastbound/southbound buses would run down the FDR Drive between 34th Street & 23rd Street (so that a connection to the northbound M15 and NYU Medical Center at 34th & 1st is maintained). Peter Cooper Village is still served by the M23 for crosstown service.

For the PABT, the southern entrance at 40th Street is 6 blocks from 34th Street, and for those that don't want to walk it (or can't walk it), there's the subway and the M11/M20 available (depending on the direction). By comparison, there's no alternative to the western portion of the M34, so those riders are stuck waiting for a 12th Avenue-bound bus in particular.

At the very least, I would get rid of the eastern branch (which it looks like the MTA is already leaning towards, since they rerouted those trips to Waterside). There's a bus that circulates around East Midtown that is designed for ferry riders anyway.

11 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with running all M34's to Waterside (and few people remain on along the 2 Avenue stops anyways so I guess it can be justified), but I cannot agree with sending every bus to Javits. The West Side does not need so much bus service, the M34 suffices. Additionally, I have seen people use the buses (during off peak hours) north of 34 Street. IDK how packed buses are during the rush, but it makes sense to run them to PABT. Without it, many who work along 34th would have to walk up to 42 Street or rely on the M11/M20 , neither of which is pleasant to have to connect/transfer to (each for their own reasons). People probably have long commutes before getting to the PABT anyway, and that would create a disservice for those going beyond PABT.

I would look into attempting to bring back the M27 (perhaps during the rush hours), and sending the M50 somewhere else on the east side. 

This is funny to me because my stance on the M34a lies somewhere between what the 2 of you are saying..... While I agree that 34th st service should be streamlined, I have always abhorred having a ton of service running out of the Javits Center..... I was one of the main ones screaming that the M42 used to carry f***ing air & had no business even ending there (it was every other M42 at that); never mind all M34 service having to end there for coverage reasons.... Something else I find funny are all them dam charter buses & Megabuses (the company) impeding M34's on that end of the route (34th b/w 11th & 12th).... I've seen charter buses, with no fux given, parked AT the M34 bus shelter on several occasions & don't understand how they get away with it....

To sum it up - as far as PABT, I agree w/ Checkmate & as far as Javits Center, I agree w/ BM5..... Here's yet another laugh - I have seen more people waiting for the "via NJ" express buses at PABT, than at any one stop of any of the local buses at PABT (from the M42, the M104, the M20, the M34a, and the M11 (on 9th))..... I have never seen much of anyone relying on the M34a to get to/from there... It's an afterthought.... You're not gonna see too many people taking local buses to get to PABT..... The M34a & the M104 I truly believe, terminate there by default (as if to say, if not here, then where?), moreso than addressing any demand....

 

9 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

In any case, a couple of more proposals:

There used to be trolley tracks down the west end of 181st Street, leading down the hill that leads to Riverside Drive. I think the M5 should be extended a couple of blocks west in order to serve this neighborhood (which is geographically close to the M4/98 and (A) train, if it weren't for the hill)

Also, going back to the M101 split discussion we had before, one alternative to branching the M98 to Inwood and Washington Heights (whether it's 168th Street/NY Presbyterian or the current terminal) would be to have it run up Broadway and terminate in Inwood (that way, it serves both Washington Heights & Inwood without branching). 

- Well, the proposed M98 would serve Washington Hgts. regardless.... I wouldn't have it serving Washington Hgts. north of GWB (and on into Inwood) though.... I already have the M98 running down to 23rd.... I would leave Broadway, north of GWB with the Bx7 & the M100 & let them eat cake.... If too many BPH would become an issue at 168th (I'd also have Bx6's running there with an M2 terminal swap), I'd simply truncate/terminate some number of trips w/ the M103 @ 125th..... I'd prefer a truncation over an extension (as in, Inwood is farther north from GWB than 168th is farther south from GWB) to address that (if it were to become a concern, that is).... East side (3rd/Lex) riders seeking LTD's would obviously benefit from less buses running to Washington Hgts..... All in all, I'm simply annoyed with the M101 & how it's setup.... The M101 is oversaturated & the M98 is treated like a throwaway route - IMO, that needs to change....

Also, I worry about a lack of demand/patronization of the route in Inwood.... There is clearly a demand for Washington Hgts. folks seeking access to E. Harlem; to my knowledge, that doesn't exist for Inwood.... Some people tend to see Inwood as an extension of Washington Hgts. & it's not the case.... As for east side service, express riders don't like it, but there are no shortage of those folks taking BxM1's for that purpose.... In short, I think running the proposed M98 up to Inwood would be rather wasteful.... Hell, I would still feel that way if the real/current M98 (from 68th) were to be suggested to run up to Inwood.....

- As for the former idea listed, I had a real old idea that had one of the Bronx routes continuing along 181st all the way to the west end there (don't remember which route I chose... I believe it was the Bx13, as a bit of an "answer" to that Bx13 extension to Ft. Lee bit that was a popular proposal back then).... This was when the M5 ended at Houston & the M6 was still in existence.... Now that the M5 is of a different rendition (as in, shorter), IDK if I would run M5's over there... Here in 2018, I'm still not certain if, or which of the Bronx GWB routes should run over there... But generally speaking, I do think something should run along that part of 181st also.... Just don't know what....

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13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

This is funny to me because my stance on the M34a lies somewhere between what the 2 of you are saying..... While I agree that 34th st service should be streamlined, I have always abhorred having a ton of service running out of the Javits Center..... I was one of the main ones screaming that the M42 used to carry f***ing air & had no business even ending there (it was every other M42 at that); never mind all M34 service having to end there for coverage reasons.... Something else I find funny are all them dam charter buses & Megabuses (the company) impeding M34's on that end of the route (34th b/w 11th & 12th).... I've seen charter buses, with no fux given, parked AT the M34 bus shelter on several occasions & don't understand how they get away with it....

To sum it up - as far as PABT, I agree w/ Checkmate & as far as Javits Center, I agree w/ BM5..... Here's yet another laugh - I have seen more people waiting for the "via NJ" express buses at PABT, than at any one stop of any of the local buses at PABT (from the M42, the M104, the M20, the M34a, and the M11 (on 9th))..... I have never seen much of anyone relying on the M34a to get to/from there... It's an afterthought.... You're not gonna see too many people taking local buses to get to PABT..... The M34a & the M104 I truly believe, terminate there by default (as if to say, if not here, then where?), moreso than addressing any demand....

- Well, the proposed M98 would serve Washington Hgts. regardless.... I wouldn't have it serving Washington Hgts. north of GWB (and on into Inwood) though.... I already have the M98 running down to 23rd.... I would leave Broadway, north of GWB with the Bx7 & the M100 & let them eat cake.... If too many BPH would become an issue at 168th (I'd also have Bx6's running there with an M2 terminal swap), I'd simply truncate/terminate some number of trips w/ the M103 @ 125th..... I'd prefer a truncation over an extension (as in, Inwood is farther north from GWB than 168th is farther south from GWB) to address that (if it were to become a concern, that is).... East side (3rd/Lex) riders seeking LTD's would obviously benefit from less buses running to Washington Hgts..... All in all, I'm simply annoyed with the M101 & how it's setup.... The M101 is oversaturated & the M98 is treated like a throwaway route - IMO, that needs to change....

Also, I worry about a lack of demand/patronization of the route in Inwood.... There is clearly a demand for Washington Hgts. folks seeking access to E. Harlem; to my knowledge, that doesn't exist for Inwood.... Some people tend to see Inwood as an extension of Washington Hgts. & it's not the case.... As for east side service, express riders don't like it, but there are no shortage of those folks taking BxM1's for that purpose.... In short, I think running the proposed M98 up to Inwood would be rather wasteful.... Hell, I would still feel that way if the real/current M98 (from 68th) were to be suggested to run up to Inwood.....

- As for the former idea listed, I had a real old idea that had one of the Bronx routes continuing along 181st all the way to the west end there (don't remember which route I chose... I believe it was the Bx13, as a bit of an "answer" to that Bx13 extension to Ft. Lee bit that was a popular proposal back then).... This was when the M5 ended at Houston & the M6 was still in existence.... Now that the M5 is of a different rendition (as in, shorter), IDK if I would run M5's over there... Here in 2018, I'm still not certain if, or which of the Bronx GWB routes should run over there... But generally speaking, I do think something should run along that part of 181st also.... Just don't know what....

30

So where would you terminate the additional buses if not the PABT?  10th Avenue (and turn around via 9th-33rd-10th-34th). That's still an exit to the Lincoln Tunnel but it's less crowded for whatever reason.

And funny enough, I remember one time I was waiting for the X17J at the PABT and I asked a guy if it passed already, and he said "I don't know, I'm waiting for the 42". I thought there was some kind of detour where the X42 was rerouted, and then I realized he was actually referring to the M42.

Yeah, that was my assumption (that Inwood-East Harlem would be the larger/dominant ridership base, over Inwood-East Midtown). BTW, back when the M98 actually ran to East Midtown, how was ridership along Fort Washington Avenue?

Wow, with all the routes that run over the GWB (both the jitneys and NJT routes), it's kind of funny somebody would propose the Bx13 to run there. but yeah, a Bronx route would probably also work. The reason I chose the M5 is more because it could use the small ridership boost more than the Bronx routes (since the M4 is used a little bit more in that section of Upper Manhattan), but it's nothing I feel too strongly about, as long as something is serving that area.

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BTW, somewhat off-topic, but what are your thoughts on a Bx3/13 combination? (I ask because it affects your options of what Bronx routes are available to cover that part of 181st. The Bx36 is likely overkill, and even the Bx35 is probably a bit too much)

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42 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

BTW, somewhat off-topic, but what are your thoughts on a Bx3/13 combination? (I ask because it affects your options of what Bronx routes are available to cover that part of 181st. The Bx36 is likely overkill, and even the Bx35 is probably a bit too much)

Foolish.... Both routes cover extremely hilly areas with no subway service, and the Bx3 is a workhorse. You would just make the line more unreliable for no reason.

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5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

So where would you terminate the additional buses if not the PABT? 10th Avenue (and turn around via 9th-33rd-10th-34th). That's still an exit to the Lincoln Tunnel but it's less crowded for whatever reason.

And funny enough, I remember one time I was waiting for the X17J at the PABT and I asked a guy if it passed already, and he said "I don't know, I'm waiting for the 42". I thought there was some kind of detour where the X42 was rerouted, and then I realized he was actually referring to the M42.

Yeah, that was my assumption (that Inwood-East Harlem would be the larger/dominant ridership base, over Inwood-East Midtown). BTW, back when the M98 actually ran to East Midtown, how was ridership along Fort Washington Avenue?

Wow, with all the routes that run over the GWB (both the jitneys and NJT routes), it's kind of funny somebody would propose the Bx13 to run there. but yeah, a Bronx route would probably also work. The reason I chose the M5 is more because it could use the small ridership boost more than the Bronx routes (since the M4 is used a little bit more in that section of Upper Manhattan), but it's nothing I feel too strongly about, as long as something is serving that area.

Two options.... 1] Either dead at 34th/8th (current M20 stop, by that McDonalds where all the junkies loiter at) or, 2] 10th/36th (turnaround continuing up 36th, to Dyer, back to 34th)... I'd lean towards the latter though..... Every short turn trip would run to Waterside & service out of the Javits Ctr. would be divvied up to running b/w Waterside & the ferry terminal.....

M98 usage along Ft. Washington bordered on non-existence... Buses had a tendency to stop dead at GWB, instead of running to Cabrini.... I've been on a couple NB trips where less than a handful amt. of pax. were still seated when we hit Broadway (meaning, they wanted to get off along Ft. Washington) & the b/o would turn off the bus, announcing that this is the last stop.... Which led me to believe that the timetables were misleading (many moons ago, the M4 also had this problem... you never really knew which buses were going inside Ft. Tryon).... I remember the first time I took the actual "full route" of the M98 up to Cabrini... Started getting worried when we had hit B'way (I was the only passenger), but to my surprise, we actually went the full distance, and I remember saying to myself "damn, finally"... Lol.....

Now if M98's still operate like that to this day, I couldn't tell you, but I would hope not.....

Most those dudes that were on that Bx13 to Fort Lee tip back then, were anti-jitney & never really brought up the NJT routes.... Some even suggested running the Bx13 to the mall (GSP)....

7 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

BTW, somewhat off-topic, but what are your thoughts on a Bx3/13 combination? (I ask because it affects your options of what Bronx routes are available to cover that part of 181st. The Bx36 is likely overkill, and even the Bx35 is probably a bit too much)

Bx13 ridership is far too dependent on Washington Heights for that to work... You would have too many people xferring for (or just flat out taking) Bx11's.... The problem I have w/ the Bx3 OTOH is more on the northern end of the route (IDRC for the fact that it covers the Sedgwick portion, nor having 238th (1) as a terminal).... Bx3 would still do well running from Kingsbridge Rd. to GWB... I believe the Bx3 would also still do well as an intraborough route; if I were to run the Bx3 between [Kingsbridge/Sedgwick or Kingsbridge/University] to say, [Yankee Stadium], I would not do so via the Bx13 - I would do it via E.L. Grant & via Jerome (which would fill in a service gap, as there is a significant difference in elevation b/w Ogden & Jerome.... Ogden starts inclining, the second you continue up it from 161st)....

I wouldn't run either of those "West Farms rd" routes (Bx11, 35) along 181st, the Bx36 is definitely out.... That would leave the Bx3 to continue along 181st to the end there....

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3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Two options.... 1] Either dead at 34th/8th (current M20 stop, by that McDonalds where all the junkies loiter at) or, 2] 10th/36th (turnaround continuing up 36th, to Dyer, back to 34th)... I'd lean towards the latter though..... Every short turn trip would run to Waterside & service out of the Javits Ctr. would be divvied up to running b/w Waterside & the ferry terminal.....

M98 usage along Ft. Washington bordered on non-existence... Buses had a tendency to stop dead at GWB, instead of running to Cabrini.... I've been on a couple NB trips where less than a handful amt. of pax. were still seated when we hit Broadway (meaning, they wanted to get off along Ft. Washington) & the b/o would turn off the bus, announcing that this is the last stop.... Which led me to believe that the timetables were misleading (many moons ago, the M4 also had this problem... you never really knew which buses were going inside Ft. Tryon).... I remember the first time I took the actual "full route" of the M98 up to Cabrini... Started getting worried when we had hit B'way (I was the only passenger), but to my surprise, we actually went the full distance, and I remember saying to myself "damn, finally"... Lol.....

Now if M98's still operate like that to this day, I couldn't tell you, but I would hope not.....

Most those dudes that were on that Bx13 to Fort Lee tip back then, were anti-jitney & never really brought up the NJT routes.... Some even suggested running the Bx13 to the mall (GSP)....

Bx13 ridership is far too dependent on Washington Heights for that to work... You would have too many people xferring for (or just flat out taking) Bx11's.... The problem I have w/ the Bx3 OTOH is more on the northern end of the route (IDRC for the fact that it covers the Sedgwick portion, nor having 238th (1) as a terminal).... Bx3 would still do well running from Kingsbridge Rd. to GWB... I believe the Bx3 would also still do well as an intraborough route; if I were to run the Bx3 between [Kingsbridge/Sedgwick or Kingsbridge/University] to say, [Yankee Stadium], I would not do so via the Bx13 - I would do it via E.L. Grant & via Jerome (which would fill in a service gap, as there is a significant difference in elevation b/w Ogden & Jerome.... Ogden starts inclining, the second you continue up it from 161st)....

I wouldn't run either of those "West Farms rd" routes (Bx11, 35) along 181st, the Bx36 is definitely out.... That would leave the Bx3 to continue along 181st to the end there....

My question is how in the hell would a combination even be done?

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2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

BTW, somewhat off-topic, but what are your thoughts on a Bx3/13 combination? (I ask because it affects your options of what Bronx routes are available to cover that part of 181st. The Bx36 is likely overkill, and even the Bx35 is probably a bit too much)

That is off-topic. Isn't there a Bronx Proposals thread?

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On 2/23/2018 at 6:47 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I would look into attempting to bring back the M27 (perhaps during the rush hours), and sending the M50 somewhere else on the east side. 

On 2/23/2018 at 8:20 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

...And I would also tend to agree with bringing back the M27. With how slow they are, a lot of the ridership on crosstown routes depends on the frequency, so by bumping up the frequency on the core part of 49th/50th Street, that should bring back ridership to that corridor. But I'd leave it ending at 1st Avenue with the M50. The M50 had low ridership to the UN, and heading north towards the Queensborough Bridge would only serve to add another source of congestion and delays.

I wouldn't bring back the M27 (especially for the sake of shifting the M50 elsewhere on the east side), I would just put some of that service on the M50 & call it a day.... Some, because even though 15 mins. isn't cutting it, service every FOUR to FIVE minutes during the rush, east of Broadway was just too much... Way too many BPH around the U.N... I definitely remember those days..... Doing the full M21 - M16 - M27 - M104 combo was one of my fav's to do when it came down to Manhattan fanning.... Being around the U.N. nowadays, it done went from "take your pick" to "where the buses at".....

But yeah man, the Rockefeller Center-PABT market that the old M27 fulfilled, I'd have to believe has dried up..... You couldn't pay me to do a commute that entailed taking a bus up 8th & across 50th to get to Rockefeller Ctr. during the rush, here in 2018..... Furthermore, last thing we need is yet another lowly utilized route ending at/serving PABT....

Reading BM5's post reminded me of that old M50 proposal to the E. 34th st ferry someone had on RD....

 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My question is how in the hell would a combination even be done?

The street grid leaves much to be desired, but due southbound, University actually continues down into High Bridge (at the bridge approach, University somehow magically turns into E.L. Grant Hwy... still don't understand it, but w/e), so SB buses would hang a right after the bridge approach... From there, buses would have to then hang a left onto Ogden (which is where the Bx13 runs along)....

Northbound from High Bridge OTOH, buses would go Plimpton > E.L. Grant > University, en route to the current Bx3 routing in the Bronx....

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24 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I wouldn't bring back the M27 (especially for the sake of shifting the M50 elsewhere on the east side), I would just put some of that service on the M50 & call it a day.... Some, because even though 15 mins. isn't cutting it, service every FOUR to FIVE minutes during the rush, east of Broadway was just too much... Way too many BPH around the U.N... I definitely remember those days..... Doing the full M21 - M16 - M27 - M104 combo was one of my fav's to do when it came down to Manhattan fanning.... Being around the U.N. nowadays, it done went from "take your pick" to "where the buses at".....

But yeah man, the Rockefeller Center-PABT market that the old M27 fulfilled, I'd have to believe has dried up..... You couldn't pay me to do a commute that entailed taking a bus up 8th & across 50th to get to Rockefeller Ctr. during the rush, here in 2018..... Furthermore, last thing we need is yet another lowly utilized route ending at/serving PABT....

Reading BM5's post reminded me of that old M50 proposal to the E. 34th st ferry someone had on RD....

 

The street grid leaves much to be desired, but due southbound, University actually continues down into High Bridge (at the bridge approach, University somehow magically turns into E.L. Grant Hwy... still don't understand it, but w/e), so SB buses would hang a right after the bridge approach... From there, buses would have to then hang a left onto Ogden (which is where the Bx13 runs along)....

Northbound from High Bridge OTOH, buses would go Plimpton > E.L. Grant > University, en route to the current Bx3 routing in the Bronx....

My question is how is the Manhattan portion maintained? Don't both buses go into Manhattan? 

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7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My question is how is the Manhattan portion maintained? Don't both buses go into Manhattan? 

There wouldn't be any Manhattan portion.

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3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Two options.... 1] Either dead at 34th/8th (current M20 stop, by that McDonalds where all the junkies loiter at) or, 2] 10th/36th (turnaround continuing up 36th, to Dyer, back to 34th)... I'd lean towards the latter though..... Every short turn trip would run to Waterside & service out of the Javits Ctr. would be divvied up to running b/w Waterside & the ferry terminal.....

M98 usage along Ft. Washington bordered on non-existence... Buses had a tendency to stop dead at GWB, instead of running to Cabrini.... I've been on a couple NB trips where less than a handful amt. of pax. were still seated when we hit Broadway (meaning, they wanted to get off along Ft. Washington) & the b/o would turn off the bus, announcing that this is the last stop.... Which led me to believe that the timetables were misleading (many moons ago, the M4 also had this problem... you never really knew which buses were going inside Ft. Tryon).... I remember the first time I took the actual "full route" of the M98 up to Cabrini... Started getting worried when we had hit B'way (I was the only passenger), but to my surprise, we actually went the full distance, and I remember saying to myself "damn, finally"... Lol.....

Now if M98's still operate like that to this day, I couldn't tell you, but I would hope not.....

Most those dudes that were on that Bx13 to Fort Lee tip back then, were anti-jitney & never really brought up the NJT routes.... Some even suggested running the Bx13 to the mall (GSP)....

Bx13 ridership is far too dependent on Washington Heights for that to work... You would have too many people xferring for (or just flat out taking) Bx11's.... The problem I have w/ the Bx3 OTOH is more on the northern end of the route (IDRC for the fact that it covers the Sedgwick portion, nor having 238th (1) as a terminal).... Bx3 would still do well running from Kingsbridge Rd. to GWB... I believe the Bx3 would also still do well as an intraborough route; if I were to run the Bx3 between [Kingsbridge/Sedgwick or Kingsbridge/University] to say, [Yankee Stadium], I would not do so via the Bx13 - I would do it via E.L. Grant & via Jerome (which would fill in a service gap, as there is a significant difference in elevation b/w Ogden & Jerome.... Ogden starts inclining, the second you continue up it from 161st)....

I wouldn't run either of those "West Farms rd" routes (Bx11, 35) along 181st, the Bx36 is definitely out.... That would leave the Bx3 to continue along 181st to the end there....

Not wild about buses using Dyer to be honest. Experiencing what it's like on the X17J, I'd try to have routes avoid that street where possible.

So what would cover the northern part of Sedgwick then? The Bx32? (Shoot, at that point, you might as well just have the Bx3 terminate at the VA Hospital for an easy turnaround) I mean, it might be a good shortcut to get over to the (4) train, compared to the Bx1/2/10 that loop around the reservoir.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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