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Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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7 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Would it make sense to split the M3 or M4?

I think so, yes.... and we've had a discussion about it somewhere in this thread; like 5 or 6 pages ago....

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52 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The two routes both have their separate places in the network (esp. on their respective eastern end portions) - the problem is (as BM5 pointed out) that the MTA's chipping away at the M22.....

In other words, the passengers are not riding correctly. 

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37 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

In other words, the passengers are not riding correctly. 

The two routes don't need to be combined.

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34 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

What about an M22 like this, to reduce the cannibalization of the M22?

I suppose it could work as some sort of Worth Street crosstown... I'm not sure about whether it would have a huge ridership pull but then again, I don't know much about Worth Street's business anyway.

Years ago was there an old worth street crosstown bus that got cut sometime (a la Grand street crosstown)?

 

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4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

What about an M22 like this, to reduce the cannibalization of the M22?

I'd leave the WB buses on Pike; there's a subway entrance at Madison/Rutgers for the (F)....

Anyway, I actually thought of something similar to this when I was replying to Checkmate (not an actual routing, but the general notion of having the [M22 running west, then north], since the [M9 runs east, then north])..... The problem is, folks simply don't patronize buses too much in the W. Village; same thing that plagues the M11, M12, M8, M20, and the M21.... When it comes to public transit, if it isn't about the (1), those folks are making their way to 6th av. for bus service.....

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14 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Would it make sense to split the M3 or M4?

Now this is interesting. M4 I'd leave alone. Only for the mere reason that it's already Washington Heights to Midtown- Penn Sta via Mad & 5th. The only thing I'd do with the M4 is short turn it at Central Park So & 7th Avenue-57th Street for certain buses, all others to Penn Station.  Maybe late nights have it terminate at CPS or 57th and 8th along with the M12  

For the M3. That's a different story. There's no limited on this route and that's Washington Heights to Downtown. The issue would only mean which area has the better ridership along the M3 route. 

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10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

What about an M22 like this, to reduce the cannibalization of the M22?

The issue is the headways on the M22.  You can extend it north. I'm not sure it would matter. I was in Tribeca TWICE over the weekend, and the M22 was an after thought. If I was just going off of the neighborhood and hadn't looked at a map, I wouldn't even know it existed to be frank... I knew it ran somewhere, but I've never seen it when I've been down there recently. 

Years ago I went for breakfast near this hotel by West Broadway and saw one that one time, otherwise it doesn't seem to exist.  I just walk to where I need to go, even with Whole Foods bags. lol It's faster than waiting for that slow bus, and that's with a stop for an espresso and a pastry on the way to the subway.  Yesterday however, I did take the M9 down from Tribeca to Battery Park City for a meeting I had, but even then I've walked in the past down West St to get to where I'm going.  The only reason I waited was because a bus was due in like 5 minutes, otherwise I wasn't waiting 20 minutes for the next M9 with the wind howling off of the water.  Screw that.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd leave the WB buses on Pike; there's a subway entrance at Madison/Rutgers for the (F)....

Anyway, I actually thought of something similar to this when I was replying to Checkmate (not an actual routing, but the general notion of having the [M22 running west, then north], since the [M9 runs east, then north])..... The problem is, folks simply don't patronize buses too much in the W. Village; same thing that plagues the M11, M12, M8, M20, and the M21.... When it comes to public transit, if it isn't about the (1), those folks are making their way to 6th av. for bus service.....

lol... When I've had meetings to attend down there I've done the so called (F) to the M22 and I've usually been stuck just walking because the M22 is non-existent, and getting a cab can be almost impossible down there from rush hour on.  In short transportation SUCKS royally in that area.  I've dreaded finishing meetings at say 21:00 down there because I usually have stuff with me to carry back to my office and have to hoof it over to Essex from where I'm at then wave down a cab with all of my crap.  Here and there I'll get a ride which is really helpful. So much time wasted otherwise.  The M9 seems slightly better in that area, but I've only managed to catch it once.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The issue is the headways on the M22.  You can extend it north. I'm not sure it would matter. I was in Tribeca TWICE over the weekend, and the M22 was an after thought. If I was just going off of the neighborhood and hadn't looked at a map, I wouldn't even know it existed to be frank... I knew it ran somewhere, but I've never seen it when I've been down there recently. 

Years ago I went for breakfast near this hotel by West Broadway and saw one that one time, otherwise it doesn't seem to exist.  I just walk to where I need to go, even with Whole Foods bags. lol It's faster than waiting for that slow bus, and that's with a stop for an espresso and a pastry on the way to the subway.  Yesterday however, I did take the M9 down from Tribeca to Battery Park City for a meeting I had, but even then I've walked in the past down West St to get to where I'm going.  The only reason I waited was because a bus was due in like 5 minutes, otherwise I wasn't waiting 20 minutes for the next M9 with the wind howling off of the water.  Screw that.

To me, IMO the main problem with the Chambers St route is twofold:

  • The bus is so close to the M9 that the M9 takes all of its ridership. This solves problem 1.
  • The bus is so slow compared to walking due to its very indirect route around the City Hall area. I walked that route often and it was a 15 minute walk, which is about the same time as the bus. Eliminating turns by keeping it on Worth/Baxter would probably speed up the route.

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11 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

To me, IMO the main problem with the Chambers St route is twofold:

  • The bus is so close to the M9 that the M9 takes all of its ridership. This solves problem 1.
  • The bus is so slow compared to walking due to its very indirect route around the City Hall area. I walked that route often and it was a 15 minute walk, which is about the same time as the bus. Eliminating turns by keeping it on Worth/Baxter would probably speed up the route.

Yeah but then where does the ridership come from? When I'm down in Tribeca, I'm down there for shopping and I walk everywhere, often times along or near Chambers Street. If I actually saw a bus, there are times I would likely get it when I've had Whole Foods bags and didn't feel like walking, but as I said the frequencies are so horrendous that  I don't even think about the bus, and rarely see one.  

I have to say though the amount of scaffolding and construction is annoying and that certainly must slow down the route.  When I went to have breakfast down there it was very noticeable.  Something else that I've noticed are those Downtown shuttle buses.  I see people use those instead of the local buses.  I'm sure they steal riders too.  One stopped right in front of me yesterday and the guy seemed shocked that I didn't get on. Probably assumed I lived in the area based on how I was dressed, but I sure as hell was tempted to ride it. Next time I'm going to ask if they are free or what... Could beat taking the bus down there. lol

 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah but then where does the ridership come from? When I'm down in Tribeca, I'm down there for shopping and I walk everywhere, often times along or near Chambers Street. If I actually saw a bus, there are times I would likely get it when I've had Whole Foods bags and didn't feel like walking, but as I said the frequencies are so horrendous that  I don't even think about the bus, and rarely see one.  

I have to say though the amount of scaffolding and construction is annoying and that certainly must slow down the route.  When I went to have breakfast down there it was very noticeable.  Something else that I've noticed are those Downtown shuttle buses.  I see people use those instead of the local buses.  I'm sure they steal riders too.  One stopped right in front of me yesterday and the guy seemed shocked that I didn't get on. Probably assumed I lived in the area based on how I was dressed, but I sure as hell was tempted to ride it. Next time I'm going to ask if they are free or what... Could beat taking the bus down there. lol

 

The Downtown Connection buses (which you saw) are free. They run roughly every 10 minutes, from 10 AM to 7 PM. That partially explains the difference in M22 headway between the AM (every 7-10 minutes) and the PM (every 15-20 minutes).

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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24 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah but then where does the ridership come from? When I'm down in Tribeca, I'm down there for shopping and I walk everywhere, often times along or near Chambers Street. If I actually saw a bus, there are times I would likely get it when I've had Whole Foods bags and didn't feel like walking, but as I said the frequencies are so horrendous that  I don't even think about the bus, and rarely see one.  

I have to say though the amount of scaffolding and construction is annoying and that certainly must slow down the route.  When I went to have breakfast down there it was very noticeable.  Something else that I've noticed are those Downtown shuttle buses.  I see people use those instead of the local buses.  I'm sure they steal riders too.  One stopped right in front of me yesterday and the guy seemed shocked that I didn't get on. Probably assumed I lived in the area based on how I was dressed, but I sure as hell was tempted to ride it. Next time I'm going to ask if they are free or what... Could beat taking the bus down there. lol

 

Yep-that descriptions sounds exactly like the Chambers Street situation. If the downtown connection arrives before the bus, most of the stop will pile onto the shuttle.

Primarily because it's free...

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3 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

Yep-that descriptions sounds exactly like the Chambers Street situation. If the downtown connection arrives before the bus, most of the stop will pile onto the shuttle.

Primarily because it's free...

I had a feeling that it was. Screw that. I'm using it next time.  I'm going to be spending a lot of time down in Battery Park City going forward for business and pleasure, so might as well take advantage. lol I'm sure one of the buildings I go to uses that shuttle bus as well.

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24 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The Downtown Connection buses (which you saw) are free. They run roughly every 10 minutes, from 10 AM to 7 PM. That partially explains the difference in M22 headway between the AM (every 7-10 minutes) and the PM (every 15-20 minutes).

The problem with that set up is it screws over the Lower East Side. I mean I've had about four or five meetings over there and I can't recall ever seeing an M22, let alone riding one. I learned to just take the subway and walk or take a cab over there.

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1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The Downtown Connection buses (which you saw) are free. They run roughly every 10 minutes, from 10 AM to 7 PM. That partially explains the difference in M22 headway between the AM (every 7-10 minutes) and the PM (every 15-20 minutes).

36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The problem with that set up is it screws over the Lower East Side.....

This & This......

....and the MTA (of course) is taking advantage of it.... The MTA isn't interested in competing in any competition; they're giving up the ghost (lol) & pocketing whatever savings come from it..... In this particular case, LES & Chinatown patrons are getting f***ed over, is right.....  More & more of the Chinatown folks are making their way/taking M15's b/c of it.....

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

lol... When I've had meetings to attend down there I've done the so called (F) to the M22 and I've usually been stuck just walking because the M22 is non-existent, and getting a cab can be almost impossible down there from rush hour on.  In short transportation SUCKS royally in that area.  I've dreaded finishing meetings at say 21:00 down there because I usually have stuff with me to carry back to my office and have to hoof it over to Essex from where I'm at then wave down a cab with all of my crap.  Here and there I'll get a ride which is really helpful. So much time wasted otherwise.  The M9 seems slightly better in that area, but I've only managed to catch it once.

Yeah, I've walked several times from E. Broadway (F) to the hobby shops in Chinatown... Didn't feel like pushing & shoving through crowds on the platform changing for the (B) or the (D) at B'way-Lafayette , losing my seat, having came from Jamaica, for a little closer of a walk from Grand/Chrystie...... Around 6pm on a weekday too, pfft.... Man, none of those instances did I even consider waiting for the M22 or the M9 b/c quite frankly, neither one of them are all too reliable.....

The (T) can't serve Chatham Sq. fast enough.....

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Can something be done to speed up the M42 and M31/57? Last time I took the M31 it was a nightmare. Bunched buses, stops every block or two, and it crawled thanks to a-holes blocking the box by the Queensboro. For the M42 I suppose SBS could be added, but for the M31/57 the only thing I can think of is rerouting those buses to run on 66th (westbound) and 65th (eastbound) between 3rd/Lexington. You could also install SBS on the M31 and have the M57 use its lanes. If you reversed 60th street or made it two-way, you could run buses on 60th and 61st instead.

Edited by R68OnBroadway

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2 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Can something be done to speed up the M42 and M31/57? Last time I took the M31 it was a nightmare. Bunched buses, stops every block or two, and it crawled thanks to a-holes blocking the box by the Queensboro. For the M42 I suppose SBS could be added, but for the M31/57 the only thing I can think of is rerouting those buses to run on 66th (westbound) and 65th (eastbound) between 3rd/Lexington. You could also install SBS on the M31 and have the M57 use its lanes. If you reversed 60th street or made it two-way, you could run buses on 60th and 61st instead.

The M42 is hopeless the traffic is just so backed up that in the rush hour you may as well just walk. I'd only focus on the sections from the far west side to times square and the far east side to GCT, that's the only place the thing is critical anyway... Let the shuttle handle the rest, the M42 is rather redundant, I'd handle it like a subway feeder route.

As for the M31, that sounds eerily familiar to an extended M30 (on both ends) and we all know where that route went... Granted it helps that you're diverting it off on Lex/3rd so perhaps that could work... York would lose their service but then again, do they really use it? I've only rode down there once and it gets respectable patronage but I don't think it'd kill them to use the 15/15 SBS.

By 60/61st Street, I'm not sure what you mean by that (as in route both the m31/m57 on to 60/61st street or only the m31 until 3rd/Lex) that could work. I'm not sure if it'd be more valuable for the m31 to supplement the m66 than continue to serve York Avenue or vice versa.

If you mean a full 60/61 street crosstown which presumably would turn into a 59th street and ultimately 57th street crosstown....... No. Just no.

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5 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

If you mean a full 60/61 street crosstown which presumably would turn into a 59th street and ultimately 57th street crosstown....... No. Just no.

The old M103?

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1 minute ago, Orion6025 said:

The M42 is hopeless the traffic is just so backed up that in the rush hour you may as well just walk. I'd only focus on the sections from the far west side to times square and the far east side to GCT, that's the only place the thing is critical anyway... Let the shuttle handle the rest, the M42 is rather redundant, I'd handle it like a subway feeder route.

As for the M31, that sounds eerily familiar to an extended M30 (on both ends) and we all know where that route went... Granted it helps that you're diverting it off on Lex/3rd so perhaps that could work... York would lose their service but then again, do they really use it? I've only rode down there once and it gets respectable patronage but I don't think it'd kill them to use the 15/15 SBS.

By 60/61st Street, I'm not sure what you mean by that (as in route both the m31/m57 on to 60/61st street or only the m31 until 3rd/Lex) that could work. I'm not sure if it'd be more valuable for the m31 to supplement the m66 than continue to serve York Avenue or vice versa.

If you mean a full 60/61 street crosstown which presumably would turn into a 59th street and ultimately 57th street crosstown....... No. Just no.

The new rerouting for the M31 would be as follows (this requires 60th to be made two-way or to be made eastbound-only).

M31 EB towards York

(normal route until 3rd Av)

Left on third, right on 60th, left on York and then resume normal route.

M31 WB towards Hell's Kitchen/Clinton:

(normal route until York/61st)

right on 61st, left on Lexington, right on 57th and then resume normal route

 

If you connected the Queens-bound lower level onramp of the Queensboro to the upper-level onramp, you could probably close the onramp from 57th to 58th, but you would still have problems from lower-level drivers trying to get to 1st Avenue (having a camera giving tickets for box blockers might help). This could speed up the M57, and you could also add bus lanes on 57th to speed it up a bit too. Congestion pricing might help as well if it takes cars off the road (given that the designated CBD is everything south of 72nd, not 60th since the QB upper level exits at 62nd/63rd). 

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3 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Can something be done to speed up the M42 and M31/57? Last time I took the M31 it was a nightmare. Bunched buses, stops every block or two, and it crawled thanks to a-holes blocking the box by the Queensboro. For the M42 I suppose SBS could be added, but for the M31/57 the only thing I can think of is rerouting those buses to run on 66th (westbound) and 65th (eastbound) between 3rd/Lexington. You could also install SBS on the M31 and have the M57 use its lanes. If you reversed 60th street or made it two-way, you could run buses on 60th and 61st instead.

Nothing can be done to speed up the M31/57 aside from congestion pricing to keep Uber out of the Midtown Area during the day. When I take the M31 or M57, it always seemed faster on the West Side. 57th between 8th and Lexington Avenues seem to be where the buses get stuck in traffic the most due to either construction in the area, or the sheer amount of cars and Taxis clogging 57th.

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19 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

Nothing can be done to speed up the M31/57 aside from congestion pricing to keep Uber out of the Midtown Area during the day. When I take the M31 or M57, it always seemed faster on the West Side. 57th between 8th and Lexington Avenues seem to be where the buses get stuck in traffic the most due to either construction in the area, or the sheer amount of cars and Taxis clogging 57th.

That would make sense given that many tourists would take Uber/Lyft near Central Park and that past there traffic is clogged from the Queensboro and from everyone traveling along the east side. Maybe a HOV 3+ (or 2) restriction on the Queensboro during rush hours might help?

Edited by R68OnBroadway

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12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The problem with that set up is it screws over the Lower East Side. I mean I've had about four or five meetings over there and I can't recall ever seeing an M22, let alone riding one. I learned to just take the subway and walk or take a cab over there.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Downtown Association considered that a nice side effect; their patrons still have reliable service but now it's less easy for the poors to get to their fancy BID.

Edited by bobtehpanda

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6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Downtown Association considered that a nice side effect; their patrons still have reliable service but now it's less easy for the poors to get to their fancy BID.

BID??

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