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CDTA

Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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21 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

The 27/28 St crosstown would be useless. It would only run between 2(nd) and 8(th). At least routes like the M8, 50 and 66 run end to end. 

Agree with it being useless, but not for that reason....

By that logic, the M8 would stop dead at Tompkins Square Park (Av A side) & the M116 would stop dead at Morningside Park (Morningside av. side).....

20 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

The streets are too tight for a bus route on that street plus the NIMBYS wouldn’t even accept this. 

I don't see what NIMBY's have to do with anything, quite honestly.....

On 5/26/2018 at 5:53 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

Made a few changes to some current routes:

M9- bus is rerouted to Worth Street after East Broadway. Bus then runs on Lafayette/Centre to Chambers, and from there it runs on Chambers to West Street where it resumes its normal route.

M22- route is eliminated (if feasible).

Can't concur with a plan that would leave nothing else other than the M15 east of Park Row over there (that immediate area around the Alfred Smith houses... it's bad enough the current coverage over there is only unidirectional w/ the M22) & that would have the M9 taking the less sought after routing to get to the City Hall area..... The current M9 to/from Park Row/City Hall is higher in demand, compared to the M22 routing to get to/from the City Hall area..... And on top of it all, piecemealing service in the Two Bridges area like that (current M9 along East Broadway & having the M14D run along Madison to Pike, from the north)....

20 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’d leave the M22 and make necessary modifications within the lower east side portion and possibly extend to 14th and 1st or 23rd and 1st.  

Worse case scenario. Battery Park to City Hall(M22) and the Chinatown-Lower East Side to be serviced by a new route: M29. 

Yeah, I'm not with any plan to try to phase out the M22 either; I believe there is a place for both routes in the network..... However, I wouldn't extend the M22 that far north though.... At best, I'd run it up to the (Houston st. side of the) Baruch Houses.....

Worst case scenario, I'd leave the route alone; the last thing that should be remotely hinted towards, is a split of the route.....

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The only thing I would do with the M22 is expand the service span especially on weekends. Didn't the 22 run the entire length of Madison St in both directions pre-9/11? Before I forget, no to a Grand-Canal crosstown. In addition to why an "M28" wouldn't work nothing of interest and no adequate layover space. 

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

 

Yeah, I'm not with any plan to try to phase out the M22 either; I believe there is a place for both routes in the network..... However, I wouldn't extend the M22 that far north though.... At best, I'd run it up to the (Houston st. side of the) Baruch Houses.....

Worst case scenario, I'd leave the route alone; the last thing that should be remotely hinted towards, is a split of the route.....

To keep it strictly Lower East Side, I’m in agreement of a possible extension to Baruch Houses on Delancey and Houston with the M14D, M21. The current route’s last stop is not to far from this one. 

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5 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

The only thing I would do with the M22 is expand the service span especially on weekends. Didn't the 22 run the entire length of Madison St in both directions pre-9/11? Before I forget, no to a Grand-Canal crosstown. In addition to why an "M28" wouldn't work nothing of interest and no adequate layover space. 

I believe pre 9/11 it did run on weekends and also on Madison Street for entire length. 

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1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

....In addition to why an "M28" wouldn't work nothing of interest and no adequate layover space. 

Nothing of interest is a much better argument.... To add to that, (a need for) crosstown coverage b/w the M23 & the M34 isn't an issue......

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

To keep it strictly Lower East Side, I’m in agreement of a possible extension to Baruch Houses on Delancey and Houston with the M14D, M21. The current route’s last stop is not to far from this one. 

That would pretty much be my aim with making the M22 more useful (in bold).... I'd look to give (more of) the LES access to that general area around Broadway & Fulton st....

To be perfectly honest, I wish there were a way to have the M22 utilize Fulton st - completely abandoning the "worth"less Worth st > Lafayette st routing..... The coverage the M22 provides around the Smith houses is grossly underestimated....

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

...Didn't the 22 run the entire length of Madison St in both directions pre-9/11?

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

I believe pre 9/11 it did run on weekends and also on Madison Street for entire length. 

The M22 still runs on weekends..... The 2010 plan entailed discontinuing all weekend service, truncating service to end at City Hall, and eliminating all overnight service.... What ended up happening was weekend service was retained (albeit at a narrower span IIRC), the end-to-end routing remained intact, & all overnight service was eliminated.....

The M22 definitely ran bi-directionally along Madison st..... I don't remember when that was no longer the case, though.....

Edited by B35 via Church

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15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

 

That would pretty much be my aim with making the M22 more useful (in bold).... I'd look to give (more of) the LES access to that general area around Broadway & Fulton st....

To be perfectly honest, I wish there were a way to have the M22 utilize Fulton st - completely abandoning the "worth"less Worth st > Lafayette st routing..... The coverage the M22 provides around the Smith houses is grossly underestimated....

The M22 still runs on weekends..... The 2010 plan entailed discontinuing all weekend service, truncating service to end at City Hall, and eliminating all overnight service.... What ended up happening was weekend service was retained (albeit at a narrower span IIRC), the end-to-end routing remained intact, & all overnight service was eliminated.....

The M22 definitely ran bi-directionally along Madison av (Street).... I don't remember when that was no longer the case, though.....

(Madison Street). I get your drift. 

To get the M22 out of worth/Lafayette. The following must be done. Buses to travel via Madison street. Left on St. James/Pearl Street, right on Fulton to Broadway & WTC. (This would be an interesting terminal part time). Option #2. M22 serves financial district loop to Fulton and Broadway than left on Chambers and regular to BPC. Thoughts? 

PS: I feel there is a viable market for the M22 Downtown, Lower East side, BPC if structure correctly and service to end at 12:30AM M-F Sat/Sun till 1AM. 

Edited by Future ENY OP
additions.

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23 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

(Madison Street). I get your drift.

(my) Post edited to read Madison st... Thanks ZpJQP.gif

23 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

To get the M22 out of worth/Lafayette, the following must be done:

Option #1 - Buses to travel via Madison street. Left on St. James/Pearl Street, right on Fulton to Broadway & WTC (This would be an interesting terminal part time).
Option #2 - M22 serves financial district loop to Fulton and Broadway (then left on Chambers and regular to BPC.

Thoughts?

PS: I feel there is a viable market for the M22 Downtown, Lower East side, BPC if structure correctly and service to end at 12:30AM M-F Sat/Sun till 1AM. 

(formatted for clarity)

Yup, in a perfect world, from Fulton, I'd have short turns ending at Vesey/Church (on Vesey) & service to BPC continuing up Church > to Chambers > North End > Vesey > West st.> current M9 route to Albany/South End, to terminate {I have the M9 cutback to Park Row/City Hall, btw.... The M9 has enough to deal with b/w Alphabet city (Lol) & Chinatown}......

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17 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

(my) Post edited to read Madison st... Thanks ZpJQP.gif

(formatted for clarity)

Yup, in a perfect world, from Fulton, I'd have short turns ending at Vesey/Church (on Vesey) & service to BPC continuing up Church > to Chambers > North End > Vesey > West st.> current M9 route to Albany/South End, to terminate {I have the M9 cutback to Park Row/City Hall, btw.... The M9 has enough to deal with b/w Alphabet city (Lol) & Chinatown}......

Perfect reasoning right there. 

Yes. M9 to Park Row-City Hall. M22 direct to BPC with part time term to Vesey/Church/Park. 

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Isn't Fulton Street a bit narrow for a bus? (Not disagreeing with the idea, but just curious)

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

(my) Post edited to read Madison st... Thanks ZpJQP.gif

(formatted for clarity)

Yup, in a perfect world, from Fulton, I'd have short turns ending at Vesey/Church (on Vesey) & service to BPC continuing up Church > to Chambers > North End > Vesey > West st.> current M9 route to Albany/South End, to terminate {I have the M9 cutback to Park Row/City Hall, btw.... The M9 has enough to deal with b/w Alphabet city (Lol) & Chinatown}......

So M22s from the Lower East Side would alternate Vesey, BPC, Vesey, BPC?

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8 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't the M22 did that in the early 2000's with short trips to Foley Square?

Don't remember....

8 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Isn't Fulton Street a bit narrow for a bus? (Not disagreeing with the idea, but just curious)

So M22s from the Lower East Side would alternate Vesey, BPC, Vesey, BPC?

Yes (it's too narrow)... Which is exactly why I prefaced the idea the way I did.

As far as the frequency b/w the short turns & buses running the full gambit, I haven't thought that deeply about it... But what I can tell you/suggest is that most trips throughout the day would run the full route..... Every other bus short turning on the M22 would be overkill - especially when I have M9's cut back to Park Row..... Something else I left out is that the proposed M22 would undergo a service increase.... I don't like the way the MTA is trying to throw the route by the wayside & hope some funky M9/M22 combination never comes to fruition......

5 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

@Future ENY OP @B35 via Church is this what you mean by the M22 via Fulton St?

42367044072_082976d32c_b.jpg

For the WB buses, yes.... Madison > St . James (turns into Pearl) > Fulton > Church > Chambers, en route to BPC....

For the EB buses, not quite.... From Chambers, buses would run down Broadway > Park Row > Frankfort, etc.....

--------

Hold on, I just picked up on something... Just checked bustime (M22) & noticed the EB routing isn't quite accurate (which isn't your fault).... Buses don't u-turn on Park Row at Spruce, it doubles back on Park Row at that loop, just short of Broadway....

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20 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't the M22 did that in the early 2000's with short trips to Foley Square?

If St. James Place counts as Foley Square then I believe yes.

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15 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

If St. James Place counts as Foley Square then I believe yes.

Bad news. It doesn’t. You thinking more of the lines of Worth Street and Centre street for Foley Square.  

 

20 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't the M22 did that in the early 2000's with short trips to Foley Square?

I don’t think there was ever a short turn from Foley Square for the M22. Maybe for City Hall. There’s no parking in the area of Foley Square. 

 

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On 5/28/2018 at 11:15 PM, B35 via Church said:

Don't remember....

Yes (it's too narrow)... Which is exactly why I prefaced the idea the way I did.

As far as the frequency b/w the short turns & buses running the full gambit, I haven't thought that deeply about it... But what I can tell you/suggest is that most trips throughout the day would run the full route..... Every other bus short turning on the M22 would be overkill - especially when I have M9's cut back to Park Row..... Something else I left out is that the proposed M22 would undergo a service increase.... I don't like the way the MTA is trying to throw the route by the wayside & hope some funky M9/M22 combination never comes to fruition......

For the WB buses, yes.... Madison > St . James (turns into Pearl) > Fulton > Church > Chambers, en route to BPC....

For the EB buses, not quite.... From Chambers, buses would run down Broadway > Park Row > Frankfort, etc.....

--------

Hold on, I just picked up on something... Just checked bustime (M22) & noticed the EB routing isn't quite accurate (which isn't your fault).... Buses don't u-turn on Park Row at Spruce, it doubles back on Park Row at that loop, just short of Broadway....

 

On 5/29/2018 at 10:33 AM, Orion6025 said:

If St. James Place counts as Foley Square then I believe yes.

 

On 5/29/2018 at 10:55 AM, Future ENY OP said:

Bad news. It doesn’t. You thinking more of the lines of Worth Street and Centre street for Foley Square.  

 

I don’t think there was ever a short turn from Foley Square for the M22. Maybe for City Hall. There’s no parking in the area of Foley Square. 

 

Just looked up the wayback machine. I'm looking at an April 2003 schedule for the M22...there were short trips from BPC to Chatham Square, not Foley Square

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58 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Just looked up the wayback machine. I'm looking at an April 2003 schedule for the M22...there were short trips from BPC to Chatham Square, not Foley Square

That sounds a bit more accurate. I would often see M22 buses parked around Chinatown. I believe that short turn was short lived tho.. Sometime around 2004 when I started working in Lower Manhattan that got eliminated and I believe City Hall became the short turn trip. (Correct me as I could possibly be wrong on this)

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On 2/7/2019 at 2:05 AM, Q Broadway Express said:

Why was the M10 shortened?

It was a dumb idea. I say restore the M10 to where the South Terminal is Abingdon Square, and extend the M20 North to West 96th Street - Central Park West. Then put Artics on the M10 at 5 minute headways at Peak Hours, 6 minute headways at Middays and Weekends, and 8 minute headways during Evenings, while Standard Sized buses run on the M20 every 6 minutes at Peak Hours and every 10 minutes during Middays, Evenings and Weekends.

Times Square is an inappropriate terminal for the M104. Send it back to the UN, and restore the 3 to 4 minute headways throughout the day.

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13 minutes ago, Fredrick Wells 2 said:

 

On 2/7/2019 at 2:05 AM, Q Broadway Express said:

Why was the M10 shortened?

It was a dumb idea. I say restore the M10 to where the South Terminal is Abingdon Square, and extend the M20 North to West 96th Street - Central Park West. Then put Artics on the M10 at 5 minute headways at Peak Hours, 6 minute headways at Middays and Weekends, and 8 minute headways during Evenings, while Standard Sized buses run on the M20 every 6 minutes at Peak Hours and every 10 minutes during Middays, Evenings and Weekends.

 

Again. Why? First of all the m20 is a horribly unreliable route with pretty mediocre ridership as it is. Extending it another 30 blocks north will trash it's reliability even further, and it's not like the extension will justify a 6 minute frequency. In some cases increasing frequency attracts more riders but the M20 is so hopeless in midtown and so convoluted in the financial district that the route would need to be completely rethought to justify 6 minute frequencies. Not to mention you could just ride the 1/2/3 train..

Furthermore there are lines that need artics far more than the m10 needs. And there are quite a few 7th/8th/9th avenue buses, you don't need to throw another on top of them to create even more redundancy

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31 minutes ago, Fredrick Wells 2 said:

It was a dumb idea. I say restore the M10 to where the South Terminal is Abingdon Square, and extend the M20 North to West 96th Street - Central Park West.

 

You might as well bring back the old M10 from 159th to BPC. The main reason it got split was that buses never got uptown due to the congestion around the Holland Tunnel.

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1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

You might as well bring back the old M10 from 159th to BPC. The main reason it got split was that buses never got uptown due to the congestion around the Holland Tunnel.

I like that idea. Just too much traffic in Midtown. That's why it became the M10/M20.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Q Broadway Express said:

How many buses per hour, on average, do the Manhattan bus routes run, please? Thank you.

I am just curious.

There's a detailed report from the comptroller's office (2017) listing bus route frequencies in the AM and evening. Note some parts may be outdated.

https://comptroller.nyc.gov/wp-content/uploads/documents/Bus_Route_Profiles_2017.pdf

Manhattan, on average, seem to run 9bph during the AM rush and 4 bph during the evening, which is the same as the citywide average. So the AVERAGE average would be somewhere in the middle.

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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