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Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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C'mon, that area is busy enough to need a route.

 

It already has enough, it's not about how busy it is, its DEMAND....which it has none!

 

Take it from someone who's lived directly in that area for 17 years. The area has the M9, M14s, M15s, M103s followed by a huge number of subway routes surrounding the area. Not much to improve in the area considering that the M14s and M15s run pretty often, the M9s are often on-time. The M103s....even though they deal with the terrible Bowery traffic, they still run pretty well.

 

Like I said before, folks gotta stop looking at maps and check out the areas themselves.

 

 

Cait Sith said it best. And i currently live in that area plus its been my "stomping grounds" since the 90s

 

occasionally i walk to and from work. walking thru SoHo and across Grand St frequently and around the same times, you slowly notice patterns and people. Now yes, that area from west to east is busy.......with pedestrian traffic. I think i can honestly say im like the only one who would use that corridor all the way across. The only demand for a route like that would probably only be me....and i dont demand it. Theres the M21, the M8 to the M14's and on the weekends, ill take the F. no big deal.

 

You guys gotta honestly understand something, implementing a route requires way frakin more that just a buttload of people. Heres an unnofficial demograph of people along Grand St:

SoHo:tourists and shoppers

Chinatown: residents and local shoppers

LES: residents.

the majority of these people either dont go far, or migrate to the nearest subway.

 

that corridor had always been frequent with people. but if bus service was needed, not only would the Grand St crosstown would still be around, other nearby crosstown routes would see more service (M8, M21)

 

Fact is, None of those who seem to be "fighting" for the idea of service where there is none are -say it with me- those who dont frequent the area. As stated my me, B35, Cait Sith and others, you cant just look at a map, and/ or be in an area once or twice, or wait for a bus for too long and think it needs service. It doesnt work like that and never will.

 

Now if someone wants to throw a legit and logical proposal to this thread, The M22 bus took a hit on doomsday and the residents still beef about it. The overnight service can be sacrificed, but the early end to the runs on the weekends could use an overhaul. On sundays alone, you can forget about the M22 after around 9:30.

Dispatching along the M14 could help too. Traffic along 14th St is a nightmare and at times, e/b M14's usually begin to run late and bunch just before Union Square. If it werent for the traffic, 14th St IMHO may have been a candidate for SBS.

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Fact is, None of those who seem to be "fighting" for the idea of service where there is none are -say it with me- those who dont frequent the area.

 

Yep... like I said earlier, it's a misconception to believe that a lot of ppl. walking about in an area will equal a lot of people on a newformed bus route in that area..... It's an illogical remedy; you don't give ppl. suppositories to cure the common cold they have....

 

Some facts are just gonna have to be faced here... every street aint suitable for a bus route just because there's asphalt (or in some areas... brick) between the opposing sidewalks....

 

I guess what's bothering me w/ some of these ideas, is this mindset of "connecting the dots" without realizing, knowing, or even considering what current problems exist......

Edited by B35 via Church

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Rules and programs can be changed....

 

Not with how entrenched they are at Operations Planning (OP). As I said, they have the full confidence of the beancounters, plus President Prendergast.

 

We could forget about any new bus routes, unless it promotes a cost-neutral, ridership-neutral approach. As that this is policy set by Prendergast himself, no one can challenge it, except Lhota. I.e., if Prendergast's underlings wish to keep their jobs.

 

Which is why even my proposal has an uphill battle of, at least, being analyzed by OP.

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The M103s....even though they deal with the terrible Bowery traffic, they still run pretty well.

 

Like I said before, folks gotta stop looking at maps and check out the areas themselves.

 

 

They're gonna be running a lot better with the new buses too...last year I had a few months where I had to commute to Canal on the 103 I could count on a delay every day from a breakdown. Dispatcher was always beside himself at 6th St. trying to figure out how to make missing buses appear outta nowhere. I liked those 53-5400s but they weren't the most reliable batch in history...

 

Second part, truth.

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...I'm not clamoring as hard as some are for the reverting of the M104, but I think that makes more sense than having a bus serving 42nd st, to have it turn on Park avenue.....

Do you have a plan to restore the M104 via 42nd St that takes a cost-neutral, ridership-neutral approach? If not, Operations planning (OP) will laugh at your idea, and toss it into the garbage.

 

Even I want the M104 to the UN restored. But I live on 42nd St, and, unfortunately, the current service pattern has worked beyond OP's expectations. And, as that the staff at OP are entrenched and have the confidence of their superiors, including Prendergast, M104 service via any part of 42nd St will not be restored.

Edited by dkupf

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Do you have a plan to restore the M104 via 42nd St that takes a cost-neutral, ridership-neutral approach? If not, Operations planning (OP) will laugh at your idea, and toss it into the garbage.

 

Even I want the M104 to the UN restored. But I live on 42nd St, and, unfortunately, the current service pattern has worked beyond OP's expectations. And, as that the staff at OP are entrenched and have the confidence of their superiors, including Prendergast, M104 service via any part of 42nd St will not be restored.

 

 

I believe there was a discussion before from the News mentioning that the M104 could get restored back along 42nd Street. Maybe have select trips to UN and the rest short turns at 41st.

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Do you have a plan to restore the M104 via 42nd St that takes a cost-neutral, ridership-neutral approach? If not, Operations planning (OP) will laugh at your idea, and toss it into the garbage.

 

Even I want the M104 to the UN restored. But I live on 42nd St, and, unfortunately, the current service pattern has worked beyond OP's expectations. And, as that the staff at OP are entrenched and have the confidence of their superiors, including Prendergast, M104 service via any part of 42nd St will not be restored.

 

I wouldn't revert the M104.... or concoct any other route panning down 42nd st.....

So, no, to your little question here....

 

The rest of the post you wasted your time directing at me.....

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M2 - Operate southbound via the current M5 to South Ferry all times except late nights. Return via State St, Battery Pl, Trinity Pl, Church St, Worth St, Centre St, and Lafayette St, then current routing.

 

Before extending the M2 service anywhere, can we please do something about it's off-peak service. Mid-day and evening service are just horrible. Pretty much I have shifted from the M2 to the M7 coming home from work because there is more M7 downtown service then M2.

 

- The M10... yeah, the Harlem portion I truly think kept that route alive.... well that, and the political clout UWS-ers hold.....

The former of the above, Same with the M1 in Harlem - You see what they did w/ that route on the weekends...

 

The M1 weekend service is doomed as it is now. The M1 doesn't really have any great destinations that it serves and unlike the M10, it is on wrong side of 125th St to pickup shoppers. If they really want to keep the weekend stub service, the least they could do is send it down to 96th St. Giving it Mt. Sini and Carver Houses would at least keep it from being killed off completly. M1 Harlem support isn't like M10 or even Bx33 Harlem support

 

Some other north 96th St ideas

 

M116 service still needs a bump from 12min to 10 minutes in the midday. Evening could go from 15 to 12.

 

DO NOT SHORT THE Bx15! The Bx15 as the 125th St crosstown is fine as it is. RFK traffic is what kills it going to the Bx (as well as when police want to take one lane on 125st to do a police checkpoint)

 

M35 service is fine but I do see, in the long term, the switch to LFSA when there are much more.

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I would do the following

M1: Revert some service to South Ferry and Weekend service to the village if demanded

M2: Retain

M3: Retain

M4:Retain

M5: Retain

M7: Retain

M8: Weekend Service restored

M9: Service can be restored to pre 1997 routing to Battery Park City

M10: Extended to 14 street

M11; I would do something to make that bus better

M14: Retain

M15: Retain

M20: Eliminated, replaced by M7,9, 10. If enough demand is wanted maybe M7 can operate the route south of 14

M21: Some weekend Service Restored

M22: Service restored weekends until 12 AM

M23: Extra Trips added rush hour

M31: Retain

M34/34A: Retain

M35: Stuck

M42: Retain

M50: One trip added at 7:54 AM

M57: Two trips starting from Broadway to 1 Avenue at 8:26 AM and at 5:43 PM

Edited by Q23 Central Term

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I would do the following

M1: Revert some service to South Ferry and Weekend service to the village if demanded

M2: Retain

M3: Retain

M4:Retain

M5: Retain

M7: Retain

M8: Weekend Service restored

M9: Service can be restored to pre 1997 routing to Battery Park City

M10: Extended to 14 street

M11; I would do something to make that bus better

M14: Retain

M15: Retain

M20: Eliminated, replaced by M7,9, 10. If enough demand is wanted maybe M7 can operate the route south of 14

M21: Some weekend Service Restored

M22: Service restored weekends until 12 AM

M23: Extra Trips added rush hour

M31: Retain

M34/34A: Retain

M35: Stuck

More to come

 

 

That M9 routing went via Vesey St, which is closed. I'd have it go via Chambers St.

 

Trust me, you do NOT want to eliminate the M20...

 

The M10 only need to go back to Penn. The way you'd do it, the route would be too long. The M20 was split off the M10 for a reason.

 

The M11 gets stuck in traffic by the Lincoln Tunnel, so there's nothing that'll really fix that.

Edited by ThrexxBus

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Before extending the M2 service anywhere, can we please do something about it's off-peak service. Mid-day and evening service are just horrible. Pretty much I have shifted from the M2 to the M7 coming home from work because there is more M7 downtown service then M2....

 

...Some other north 96th St ideas

 

M116 service still needs a bump from 12min to 10 minutes in the midday. Evening could go from 15 to 12....

 

The head scheduler at Operations Planning is also the Treasurer of the Electric Railroaders Association, Michael Glikin. He is a corporate sycophant who will never change a single schedule without actual passenger counts solely from the traffic checkers, and solely using the MTA Bus Loading Guidelines.

 

WARNING: don't waste your time doing your own passenger counts; he will gleefully toss them in the garbage!

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...The M1 weekend service is doomed as it is now. The M1 doesn't really have any great destinations that it serves and unlike the M10, it is on wrong side of 125th St to pickup shoppers. If they really want to keep the weekend stub service, the least they could do is send it down to 96th St. Giving it Mt. Sini [sic] and Carver Houses would at least keep it from being killed off completly[sic]....

 

I know how the service planners think. THey like to throw cold water on everyone else's ideas.

 

The current weekend service pattern complies with the Bus Loading Guidelines, and a simple extension to 96 St would add an extra bus on the weekend, increasing operating costs by $25,000 annually. In other words, it would require an extra 20,000 annual riders, or 385 extra riders each weekend to ride an extra half-mile in order to be cost-neutral!!!! I only see an extra 200-250 each weekend.

 

Based on these, I don't think the service planners would recommend such an extension.

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M20: Eliminated, replaced by M7,9, 10. If enough demand is wanted maybe M7 can operate the route south of 14

M35: Stuck

M50: One trip added at 7:54 AM

M57: Two trips starting from Broadway to 1 Avenue at 8:26 AM and at 5:43 PM

 

- M20 is needed for coverage....

- Don't know what you mean by "stuck", as it pertains to the M35....

- M50 & M57.... what's with the odd time suggestions ?

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- M20 is needed for coverage....

- Don't know what you mean by "stuck", as it pertains to the M35....

- M50 & M57.... what's with the odd time suggestions ?

 

The M9/10 would replace it. I didn't suggest the M10 to SF, just to 14

M35: Dunno what to do

M50/57: Ti fill in for heavy ridership priods

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The M9/10 would replace it. I didn't suggest the M10 to SF, just to 14

M35: Dunno what to do

M50/57: Ti fill in for heavy ridership priods

 

 

7th/8th Avenues need one through route. The M10 would be too long like that.

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The M9/10 would replace it. I didn't suggest the M10 to SF, just to 14

M35: Dunno what to do

M50/57: Ti fill in for heavy ridership priods

 

 

M35, M50, M57: Ok, gotcha.

 

M20: Well wait a second....

If you want th M9 going back to BPC & the M10 sent to 14th (neither of which I think should happen, but still...), then what runs between Chambers & 14th street, west of 6th av? Unless you're tellin those riders, to hell with the bus & make their way to the (1)....

 

As much as I hate the M20, the service is necessary.

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M20: Well wait a second....

If you want th M9 going back to BPC & the M10 sent to 14th (neither of which I think should happen, but still...), then what runs between Chambers & 14th street, west of 6th av? Unless you're tellin those riders, to hell with the bus & make their way to the (1)....

 

As much as I hate the M20, the service is necessary.

 

 

Mmmhmm, I take the M20 all the time and especially at odd hours I'm sitting there wondering why that bus still runs. Same time, I don't have any better ideas, and there needs to be *some* bus there.

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Combine 5th Av/108th, 5th Av/109th and 110th St/5th Av Bus Stops to new location at 5th

Av/108th-109th Sts for easy transfer.

 

M2: Retain

M3: Retain

M4: Retain

M5: Have weekend LTD service.

M7: Extend to Union Sq via 14th St, Broadway, 9th St, University Place, 14th St.

M8: Restore weekend service.

M9: Did not ride full route yet.

M10: No comment yet.

M11: Retain

M20: Retain

M22: Retain

M23: Retain

M31: Add more service.

M34 SBS: Coordinate schedules with NY Waterway's East River Ferry service when East Side Ferry Shuttle bus are not running.

M35/X80: Retain.

M42: Extend to East River Ferry for easy connection to East River Ferry via FDR Drive Service Rd.

M50: Retain

M57: Retain.

M66:Retain

M72: Improv weekend schedule.

M79: Retain

M86: Extend to Riverside Drive via 87th St, West End Av, 85th St, Riverside Drive, 86th St.

M96/M106: Extend to Riverside Drive.

M98 LTD: Add more rush hour LTD.

M101-M103: Not sure.

M104: Restore service to U.N. during rush hours.

M116: No comments. Did not ride this bus.

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Something has to be done about the unreliability of Madison/5 Av routes. Combined those routes would be the busiest in the city and have to deal with way too much traffic in Midtown along those streets. Among the M1,2,3,4 and 5 an overhaul is needed. I would like to see what anyone can come up with.

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Something has to be done about the unreliability of Madison/5 Av routes. Combined those routes would be the busiest in the city and have to deal with way too much traffic in Midtown along those streets. Among the M1,2,3,4 and 5 an overhaul is needed. I would like to see what anyone can come up with.

 

 

Simple....

 

Get rid of all the other vehicles....

 

But that won't happen.....

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I know how the service planners think. THey like to throw cold water on everyone else's ideas.

 

The current weekend service pattern complies with the Bus Loading Guidelines, and a simple extension to 96 St would add an extra bus on the weekend, increasing operating costs by $25,000 annually. In other words, it would require an extra 20,000 annual riders, or 385 extra riders each weekend to ride an extra half-mile in order to be cost-neutral!!!! I only see an extra 200-250 each weekend.

 

Based on these, I don't think the service planners would recommend such an extension.

 

 

If that's the case where you missing at most 185 new riders, I saw take the risk, if I was running it. If after 6 months the idea didn't catch own, then you could shut it back down to 106. If anything you could shift a run from the M10 to bring the balance.

 

As for the M116, I can tell you they must have checkers at times when school is out. M116 summer service isn't the same as M116 during the rest of the year. For a route that brings in profit, better headways couldn't hurt it at all

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QJ, I was paying attention and I was not replying to you. I was replying to Q23's idea that M31 and M57 merging is bad idea.

M31 was my home-school line when I was at HSES.

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M5: Have weekend LTD service.

That's definitely needed, but accord to MTA not enough funding, and weekend traffic is decent on weekends..

 

M7: Extend to Union Sq via 14th St, Broadway, 9th St, University Place, 14th St.

Leave as is. You already have the M1/2/3/4/8 servicing the areas.

 

M8: Restore weekend service.

Agreed!

 

M31: Add more service.

If you mean more rush hour service yes, other times.. Absolutely NOT. The service levels on the 31 are fair.

 

M34 SBS: Coordinate schedules with NY Waterway's East River Ferry service when East Side Ferry Shuttle bus are not running.

This might get a pass, but I don't forsee that happening.

 

M42: Extend to East River Ferry for easy connection to East River Ferry via FDR Drive Service Rd.

No need for extensions for the M42. Traffic is HELL already.

 

M72: Improv weekend schedule.

LEAVE AS IS

 

M86/96/106: LEAVE AS IS.. No extensions to Riverside Drive. West End Ave is a 1 block walk down to Riverside for M5.

 

M98 LTD: Add more rush hour LTD.

Agreed!

 

M104: Restore service to U.N. during rush hours.

Definitely not happening... Already service by the M42.

 

 

REPLIES in RED!!!!

PS: Let's stop looking at maps and do the actual research of taking the buses before putting it down on the board. Even I make some mistakes, and I do ask for proper correction b/c at the end of the day I'm not trying to look bad.

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Mmmhmm, I take the M20 all the time and especially at odd hours I'm sitting there wondering why that bus still runs. Same time, I don't have any better ideas, and there needs to be *some* bus there.

Everytime I go out for lunch & see how empty M20's are along Hudson, I say the same thing to myself... Literally... Sometimes out loud even.... Like damn, why does this route even exist.... lol......

 

I believe the MTA got it right w/ removing the M9 from BPC & sending the M20 over to S. Ferry.... That was the only idea I had for the M20.... It's old terminal over by 1st pl/little west st was one big WTF..... That is why you had ppl. from BPC favoring the 9 over the 20; that walk towards the ferry, etc. was cumbersome.....

 

 

Combine 5th Av/108th, 5th Av/109th and 110th St/5th Av Bus Stops to new location at 5th Av/108th-109th Sts for easy transfer.

 

M5: Have weekend LTD service.

M7: Extend to Union Sq via 14th St, Broadway, 9th St, University Place, 14th St.

M8: Restore weekend service.

M31: Add more service.

M34 SBS: Coordinate schedules with NY Waterway's East River Ferry service when East Side Ferry Shuttle bus are not running.

M42: Extend to East River Ferry for easy connection to East River Ferry via FDR Drive Service Rd.

M72: Improv weekend schedule.

M86: Extend to Riverside Drive via 87th St, West End Av, 85th St, Riverside Drive, 86th St.

M96/M106: Extend to Riverside Drive.

M98 LTD: Add more rush hour LTD.

M104: Restore service to U.N. during rush hours.

5th av idea: Makes sense.....

 

M5: Agreed... They took away weekend LTD service due to the discontinuation of the M6.... I still say the M6 was one of those rare routes that seemed like it had more weekend ridership than weekday ridership....

 

M7: I don't think the route should be reverted to Union Sq...

Again, with no M6, the M7 acts as the "local" along 6th av.... The route was delay prone shooting across 14th from park av to 6th av anyway..... The M7 feels more improved now that it ends over on 14th/6th..... Want union sq, take the M14's - there is no shortage of service along 14th st....

 

M8: The question is.... to what service levels?

 

M31: I'm not so sure if its service levels are the problem, as much as it is York av traffic delaying the buses to where the buses are arriving so few & far between.....

 

M34/M42: The East River Ferry is not that important to have these routes scheduled around it's schedule, I'm sorry.....

The masses that take the M34 are not heading to/from the ferry..... Sending the M42 to the ferry terminal would involve putting M42's on 1st av to get back to 42nd st..... also, forget about M42's u-turning on East river dr. to end w/ the M34..... There would be no other feasible place to end extended M42's down there......

 

M72: What's wrong with its weekend schedule?

 

M86/96/106: Pointless, as the riders are emanating from the (1).... Folks take the M5 to avoid the lagging traffic along broadway...

Plus you'd be exacerbating the turnaround scenario for those crosstown routes......

 

M98: I think the route should go back to serving 34th st....

They've successfully bastardized that route to where adding more service won't make much of a difference.....

 

M104: The more & more I think about it, the more I think the M104 should actually be sent in the other direction, if we want to talk about extending the route along 42nd.... especially since there's no M50 on the weekends...... But for all practical purposes, I don't think the M104 should be reverted......

 

 

Something has to be done about the unreliability of Madison/5 Av routes. Combined those routes would be the busiest in the city and have to deal with way too much traffic in Midtown along those streets. Among the M1,2,3,4 and 5 an overhaul is needed. I would like to see what anyone can come up with.

The M1, M2, M3, M4, and M5 routes doesn't need overhauling due to the fact that it has to contend with the traffic along 5th/Madison av....

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