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Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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On 4/18/2019 at 1:24 PM, B35 via Church said:

Overall, the M9 simply does too much & the M22 doesn't do enough..... That, and you don't really need a bus on [Chambers] & [a bus on Warren/Murray] over there.... Poor allocation of resources, the way I see it.

 

Maybe the M9 and M22 can be combined into a single route....

 

  • Southbound:  M9 route from Bellevue to Houston St, then left Houston, right FDR, right Grand, left East Broadway to Chatham Square, into M22 route to BPC (North Cove), then continue to South Cove.
  • Northbound: From Liberty St via M20 route to Chambers, then M22 route to Park Row U-turn, continuing on Park Row under Police Plaza to Chatham Square, right East Broadway, right Grand, left Lewis, left Delancey, right Columbia, left Houston, right Avenue C, into M9 route to Bellevue.

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8 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Maybe the M9 and M22 can be combined into a single route....

 

  • Southbound:  M9 route from Bellevue to Houston St, then left Houston, right FDR, right Grand, left East Broadway to Chatham Square, into M22 route to BPC (North Cove), then continue to South Cove.
  • Northbound: From Liberty St via M20 route to Chambers, then M22 route to Park Row U-turn, continuing on Park Row under Police Plaza to Chatham Square, right East Broadway, right Grand, left Lewis, left Delancey, right Columbia, left Houston, right Avenue C, into M9 route to Bellevue.

If it were only that easy..... I mean, that'd be a tough sell to have the combined route circumnavigate one of the major ridership gen's of the M9, which is Delancey/Essex (I'm not just talking about the subway station, but it is inclusive)....

I'd just have the M22 have more of a responsibility; namely that of running it up to serve the Baruch houses & the Wald houses....

 

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37 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

If it were only that easy..... I mean, that'd be a tough sell to have the combined route circumnavigate one of the major ridership gen's of the M9, which is Delancey/Essex (I'm not just talking about the subway station, but it is inclusive)....

 

M14A would still be on Essex, and M15 is fairly close by on Allen Street.

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19 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

M14A would still be on Essex, and M15 is fairly close by on Allen Street.

Oh, I understand there would still be some bus service on Essex w/ the 14A... What I was getting as it the fact that you have M9 users (Av C) that use it to get to Delancey/Essex (for the subway and/or for the stores around there & what not)... Having the route come off Av. C & hang a left off Houston would immediately make the route less useful for those on the more eastern side of Alphabet City....

Combining the two routes in BPC is fairly simple & wouldn't (or shouldn't) be too much of a problem/spark too many outcries... It's when you hit Seward park (and points north) where things'll start to get difficult with the combination.

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6 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Not a proposal per se, but could we get away with cutting the Port Authority branch of the M34A and sending all buses to Javits Center?

Why do that?

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6 hours ago, Lex said:

Why do that?

Because PABT has the M42 and M20 serving it while Javits Center only has half of the M34 buses serving it (since the other half are M34A)

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3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Because PABT has the M42 and M20 serving it while Javits Center only has half of the M34 buses serving it (since the other half are M34A)

The issue is that people getting to/from East Midtown would be negatively impacted. People going to/from points south of 34th street are not going to have a direct way to get to PABT.

Ultimately, the issue is more that 34th street needs more buses during the day. Those buses are often crushloaded (sometimes unecessarily) and more service would offset the need to eliminate the branch towards PABT.

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24 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Ultimately, the issue is more that 34th street needs more buses during the day. Those buses are often crushloaded (sometimes unecessarily) and more service would offset the need to eliminate the branch towards PABT.

This is just what I was going to say.

The issue with the M34 has less to do with insufficient service to the Javits Ctr. & more to do with an insufficient amt. of service, well.... Period..... That's been a gripe with 34th st. service, long before the SBS conversion & what not....

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18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

This is just what I was going to say.

The issue with the M34 has less to do with insufficient service to the Javits Ctr. & more to do with an insufficient amt. of service, well.... Period..... That's been a gripe with 34th st. service, long before the SBS conversion & what not....

Here’s the other problem. Most of the emphasis is on 14th street right now and they are neglecting 34th. 34th right now is the real problem and not 14th. Plus getting buses from the Brooklyn Division to cover the M14SBS+ starting in June. 

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4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here’s the other problem. Most of the emphasis is on 14th street right now and they are neglecting 34th. 34th right now is the real problem and not 14th. Plus getting buses from the Brooklyn Division to cover the M14SBS+ starting in June. 

Given the current situation, that's not surprising.

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6 hours ago, Q Broadway Express said:

Are the (MTA) really cutting bus stops in Alphabet City?

It's mostly just stops along Grand St and some stops South of 10 st

Edited by MysteriousBtrain

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On 4/29/2019 at 7:54 AM, B35 via Church said:

This is just what I was going to say.

The issue with the M34 has less to do with insufficient service to the Javits Ctr. & more to do with an insufficient amt. of service, well.... Period..... That's been a gripe with 34th st. service, long before the SBS conversion & what not....

 

On 4/29/2019 at 7:27 AM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The issue is that people getting to/from East Midtown would be negatively impacted. People going to/from points south of 34th street are not going to have a direct way to get to PABT.

Ultimately, the issue is more that 34th street needs more buses during the day. Those buses are often crushloaded (sometimes unecessarily) and more service would offset the need to eliminate the branch towards PABT.

The waits even with the M34 and the M34A combo along 34th are maddening. I usually just huff it where possible.  A royal pain...

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4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The waits even with the M34 and the M34A combo along 34th are maddening. I usually just huff it where possible.  A royal pain...

For that, and other reasons, I don't ever rely on any crosstown routes... I don't mind walking from the east side of Manhattan to the west side of Manhattan - at all.... Even with the slow walkers & damn window shoppers... As much a pet peeve both of those things are to me, I'm more than willing to sacrifice dealing with them, than ever having to put up with the crap that you have to, whilst either a] waiting for & b] taking some crosstown route.....

...but yet you have court jesters on here talking about running buses on damn Canal st.

 

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7 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

For that, and other reasons, I don't ever rely on any crosstown routes... I don't mind walking from the east side of Manhattan to the west side of Manhattan - at all.... Even with the slow walkers & damn window shoppers... As much a pet peeve both of those things are to me, I'm more than willing to sacrifice dealing with them, than ever having to put up with the crap that you have to, whilst either a] waiting for & b] taking some crosstown route.....

...but yet you have court jesters on here talking about running buses on damn Canal st.

 

The day any bus ran on Canal Street... lol

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6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The day any bus ran on Canal Street... lol

To hell with me, I'm willing to bet all those elderly Chinese ladies would outpace that freakin thing from Church st (which is really as far west as they go, for the most part) to the bridge approach (Bowery) - even with the heavy pedestrian traffic along it.

FWIW, save for those small restaurants & those hole-in-the-wall startups that set up shop over around Canal st (1), there's not much around that part of Canal.... The M21 suffers a similar fate on the western end terminal as well; after it reaches Houston st (1), that shit dies like raid to roaches - So much so that buses would sometimes layover on the far side of Houston/Varick! (when it ends over there on Spring/Grennich (Greenwich)).... I'd CTFU in the morning whenever I saw buses on layover on that corner, alongside that HSBC (couldn't tell you wth's over there now, it's been so long since I worked in that area... lol)

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Canal is a glorified Holland-Manhattan Bridge connector. I always side-eye anyone who says Canal St is the "center" of Chinatown, because it's quite clear that Canal St isn't fit to be the center of anything other than the counterfeit vendors. (Most of Chinatown is south and east of Canal St station anyways; there isn't really a station serving the center, but IMO Grand St is the more accessible station.)

Hopefully congestion pricing will make Canal St more useful as an actual street.

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18 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Canal is a glorified Holland-Manhattan Bridge connector. I always side-eye anyone who says Canal St is the "center" of Chinatown, because it's quite clear that Canal St isn't fit to be the center of anything other than the counterfeit vendors. (Most of Chinatown is south and east of Canal St station anyways; there isn't really a station serving the center, but IMO Grand St is the more accessible station.)

Hopefully congestion pricing will make Canal St more useful as an actual street.

Quite honestly, I've never heard/read anyone make a mention of, or hint towards the notion of a downtown Chinatown.....

All the establishments I frequent in Chinatown are closer to Bowery than Canal st anyway.....

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Quite honestly, I've never heard/read anyone make a mention of, or hint towards the notion of a downtown Chinatown.....

All the establishments I frequent in Chinatown are closer to Bowery than Canal st anyway.....

You used to see it a lot in media coverage of Chinatown, presumably because the non-residents who write for the paper only really know about the counterfeit shops.

Chinatown doesn't really have a 'center', it's got ~3 ish clusters; East Broadway, the area around Grand St (B)(D) , and the "old" Chinatown between Columbus Park and Canal St.

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Good thing I found this, 

on a Facebook group someone did his version of the bus redesign 

Here are his changes 

Ok so after seeing the Bronx redesign I decided to try my own custom ideas at Manhattan's redesign. The map is included, with further explanation below:

M12 - service is extended to Yorkville, replacing the M31.
M18 - New Route between Harlem/125th St and Ft. George/193rd St, with frequency of every 10 min.
M31 - service is replaced by an extended M12.
M42 - Restored service to Javits Ctr/34th St during all times except nights, when service ends at Pier 83.
M100 - no more service along 125th St.
M101 - Service now ends at 125th St, operating between 125th St and 8th St with LTD service, during days on weekdays and weekends. No overnight service. Upper manhattan service replaced by M18.
Bx15 - service in Manhattan discontinued, replaced by M125.
M125 - service replaces the Bx15 in Manhattan.
Q60 LTD - a new variant of the Q60 which runs between 109th Av and Long Island City making LTD stops, then local stops to Penn Station via Q32.

I dislike the q60 extension and the m42 javits restoration 

I'm iffy about merging the m12 and m31 my amendment to it would to cut the merged m12 to the m72 terminal and extended the 72 to current m31 terminal

I proposed a modification to the m5/55 

Restore the m6 and split it at Columbus circle

If I have the m5/6 end in Columbus I would have to extend the m10 is my concern

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K66eJLqwVJpMwcDBjtNECo1WyT0CxsGa/view

Edited by BreeddekalbL

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12 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Good thing I found this, 

on a Facebook group someone did his version of the bus redesign 

Here are his changes 

Quote

 

Ok so after seeing the Bronx redesign I decided to try my own custom ideas at Manhattan's redesign. The map is included, with further explanation below:

M12 - service is extended to Yorkville, replacing the M31.
M18 - New Route between Harlem/125th St and Ft. George/193rd St, with frequency of every 10 min.
M31 - service is replaced by an extended M12.
M42 - Restored service to Javits Ctr/34th St during all times except nights, when service ends at Pier 83.
M100 - no more service along 125th St.
M101 - Service now ends at 125th St, operating between 125th St and 8th St with LTD service, during days on weekdays and weekends. No overnight service. Upper manhattan service replaced by M18.
Bx15 - service in Manhattan discontinued, replaced by M125.
M125 - service replaces the Bx15 in Manhattan.
Q60 LTD - a new variant of the Q60 which runs between 109th Av and Long Island City making LTD stops, then local stops to Penn Station via Q32.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K66eJLqwVJpMwcDBjtNECo1WyT0CxsGa/view

 

 

I don't think the MTA would even stoop that low; eliminating the M31 by running the M12 to Yorkville....

That "M18" is basically what I'd have the M101 do (assuming it's running via Amsterdam & along 125th)...

Reverting the M42 to Javits Center I don't see much of a point of anymore.... There's barely enough space on that block for the M34 to layover w/ all those charter buses impeding it.... Inside Javits Center property, that simply aint happening.... May as well leave the M42 where it is....

So this dude agrees w/ the MTA's proposal for the M100, has the M101 running LTD on 3rd/Lex south of 125th, with the M102 & M103 untouched as locals? That's redundant - for that, he may as well have M102's running LTD south of 125th & call it a day...

There's no need for Q60's AND Q32's running to Penn station; let alone via 5th/Madison.... I would argue there isn't too much need for the Q32 to run all the way down to Penn anymore; well every trip anyway.....

12 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I dislike the q60 extension and the m42 javits restoration 

I'm iffy about merging the m12 and m31 my amendment to it would to cut the merged m12 to the m72 terminal and extended the 72 to current m31 terminal

I proposed a modification to the m5/55 

Restore the m6 and split it at Columbus circle

If I have the m5/6 end in Columbus I would have to extend the m10 is my concern

* You're iffy about a route going from Abingdon Sq.... up to 57th st... clear along 57th st to York av... and clear along York av to 92nd???

* Your amendment isn't too much better; It's a combination of the old M58 & the current M12.... The current M31 running clear along 57th & clear along York is enough....

* Lastly, yeah, a continuous route running from South Ferry to CPS/Columbus Circle via 5th/6th is warranted (the current M55 NB terminal & the current M5 SB terminal doesn't do riders much justice).... if you want to truncate the M5 to Columbus Circle (from GWB, I'm assuming), there would be no need to extend the M10, because the M104 provides that coverage (to TSQ)....

Hell, even if Mayor Moneybags (Bloomberg) had wet dreams about trying to Europeanize this city w/ these ped. malls & what not, that still didn't have to lead to the MTA eliminating the M6... MTA had it right with the old M5/M6 pattern, is what it boils down to.... Having the M5 run from South Ferry to GWB was a logistical nightmare & a shitstorm waiting to happen (for obvious reasons).... The basic idea of splitting that abominable rendition of the M5 (which is why I say, you don't get attaboy's for solving problems you create !) made sense, but they split it in a way that deters usage along the affected corridor between SoHo & Midtown North..... Another way of putting that is, Midtown isn't really a "mid"point, as far as local bus usage goes in Manhattan - and you're seeing proof of that with the current M5 & M55....

Edited by B35 via Church
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13 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Good thing I found this, 

on a Facebook group someone did his version of the bus redesign 

Here are his changes 

Ok so after seeing the Bronx redesign I decided to try my own custom ideas at Manhattan's redesign. The map is included, with further explanation below:

M12 - service is extended to Yorkville, replacing the M31.
M18 - New Route between Harlem/125th St and Ft. George/193rd St, with frequency of every 10 min.
M31 - service is replaced by an extended M12.
M42 - Restored service to Javits Ctr/34th St during all times except nights, when service ends at Pier 83.
M100 - no more service along 125th St.
M101 - Service now ends at 125th St, operating between 125th St and 8th St with LTD service, during days on weekdays and weekends. No overnight service. Upper manhattan service replaced by M18.
Bx15 - service in Manhattan discontinued, replaced by M125.
M125 - service replaces the Bx15 in Manhattan.
Q60 LTD - a new variant of the Q60 which runs between 109th Av and Long Island City making LTD stops, then local stops to Penn Station via Q32.

I dislike the q60 extension and the m42 javits restoration 

I'm iffy about merging the m12 and m31 my amendment to it would to cut the merged m12 to the m72 terminal and extended the 72 to current m31 terminal

I proposed a modification to the m5/55 

Restore the m6 and split it at Columbus circle

If I have the m5/6 end in Columbus I would have to extend the m10 is my concern

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K66eJLqwVJpMwcDBjtNECo1WyT0CxsGa/view

I’m going to add my 2 cents to this and say the following

1). No Q60 in the confines of Penn Station. The market is simply not there for that. 

2). Leave the M42 alone. It’s good at Pier 83 and plus what @B35 via Church mentioned about spacing at 34th. It’s completely horrendous plus with Hudson Yards and their obscure security protocol not even 33rd street is suitable for a terminal.  

3) No M12 to Yorkville. You are simply asking for disaster. The geography and topography of a bus route originating at Abington Square  heading to Yorkville is troublesome and not marketable. (Simply this:  leave the M31 alone)

Now what I kinda agree is this: 

M18- 125th to 193rd that could work for a replacement for the M101. (Too bad that was the old Covenant Avenue shuttle destination sign)

Re-activate M6: South Ferry and extend to Columbus-63rd-Lincoln Center via 6th & BWAY. This would be a good market especially late nights when the (1) is out of service b/w midtown and the ferry. 

Edited by Future ENY OP

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't think the MTA would even stoop that low; eliminating the M31 by running the M12 to Yorkville....

That "M18" is basically what I'd have the M101 do (assuming it's running via Amsterdam & along 125th)...

Reverting the M42 to Javits Center I don't see much of a point of anymore.... There's barely enough space on that block for the M34 to layover w/ all those charter buses impeding it.... Inside Javits Center property, that simply aint happening.... May as well leave the M42 where it is....

So this dude agrees w/ the MTA's proposal for the M100, has the M101 running LTD on 3rd/Lex south of 125th, with the M102 & M103 untouched as locals? That's redundant - for that, he may as well have M102's running LTD south of 125th & call it a day...

There's no need for Q60's AND Q32's running to Penn station; let alone via 5th/Madison.... I would argue there isn't too much need for the Q32 to run all the way down to Penn anymore; well every trip anyway.....

* You're iffy about a route going from Abingdon Sq.... up to 57th st... clear along 57th st to York av... and clear along York av to 92nd???

* Your amendment isn't too much better; It's a combination of the old M58 & the current M12.... The current M31 running clear along 57th & clear along York is enough....

* Lastly, yeah, a continuous route running from South Ferry to CPS/Columbus Circle via 5th/6th is warranted (the current M55 NB terminal & the current M5 SB terminal doesn't do riders much justice).... if you want to truncate the M5 to Columbus Circle (from GWB, I'm assuming), there would be no need to extend the M10, because the M104 provides that coverage (to TSQ)....

Hell, even if Mayor Moneybags (Bloomberg) had wet dreams about trying to Europeanize this city w/ these ped. malls & what not, that still didn't have to lead to the MTA eliminating the M6... MTA had it right with the old M5/M6 pattern, is what it boils down to.... Having the M5 run from South Ferry to GWB was a logistical nightmare & a shitstorm waiting to happen (for obvious reasons).... The basic idea of splitting that abominable rendition of the M5 (which is why I say, you don't get attaboy's for solving problems you create !) made sense, but they split it in a way that deters usage along the affected corridor between SoHo & Midtown North..... Another way of putting that is, Midtown isn't really a "mid"point, as far as local bus usage goes in Manhattan - and you're seeing proof of that with the current M5 & M55....

Im iffy about a combined m12 cause it will get it's butt whipped 

And my concern about extending the m10 was to declutter Columbus 

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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6 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’m going to add my 2 cents to this and say the following

1). No Q60 in the confines of Penn Station. The market is simply not there for that. 

2). Leave the M42 alone. It’s good at Pier 83 and plus what @B35 via Church stared about spacing at 34th. It’s completely horrendous plus with Hudson Yards and their obscure security protocol not even 33rd street is suitable for a terminal.  

3) No M12 to Yorkville. You are simply asking for disaster. The geography and topography of a bus route originating at Abington Square  heading to Yorkville is troublesome and not marketable. (Simply this:  leave the M31 alone)

Now what I kinda agree is this: 

M18- 125th to 193rd that could work for a replacement for the M101. (Too bad that was the old Covenant Avenue shuttle destination sign)

Re-activate M6: South Ferry and extend to Columbus-63rd-Lincoln Center via 6th & BWAY. This would be a good market especially late nights when the (1) is out of service b/w midtown and the ferry. 

Yes I agree with most of your points, the m18 would help out the m101

And reviving the m6 would have been the smart thing to do 

Also for you and @B35 via Church how would you declutter Abingdon sq 

Edited by BreeddekalbL

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