Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Threxx]

M104: The more & more I think about it, the more I think the M104 should actually be sent in the other direction, if we want to talk about extending the route along 42nd.... especially since there's no M50 on the weekends...... But for all practical purposes, I don't think the M104 should be reverted......

 

 

M50 weekend service was reinstated some time ago. The M104 could replace Javits Center M42 service if it went the other way.

 

Was done in 2011 actually...

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/manh/m050cur.pdf

Edited April 27, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5th av idea: Makes sense.....

 

M5: Agreed... They took away weekend LTD service due to the discontinuation of the M6.... I still say the M6 was one of those rare routes that seemed like it had more weekend ridership than weekday ridership....

 

Then if that's the argument then why bother having the M5 be LTD during the week?? They could simply add more M7s but of course they wouldn't do that. Furthermore, the M7s seem to come in bunches anyway, even with the shortening of its southern terminal.

 

M7: I don't think the route should be reverted to Union Sq...

Again, with no M6, the M7 acts as the "local" along 6th av.... The route was delay prone shooting across 14th from park av to 6th av anyway..... The M7 feels more improved now that it ends over on 14th/6th..... Want union sq, take the M14's - there is no shortage of service along 14th st....

 

I don't think it has improved to be honest. It's another route that I avoid using unless I have to use it. I don't think it would be a good idea to send it back to Union Sq. simply because it took FOREVER for it to come around, but something should be serving Union Sq. directly besides the M14.

 

M31: I'm not so sure if its service levels are the problem, as much as it is York av traffic delaying the buses to where the buses are arriving so few & far between.....

 

M31s should have more artics...

 

M72: What's wrong with its weekend schedule?

 

M72... Runs terrible... Period...

 

 

M104: The more & more I think about it, the more I think the M104 should actually be sent in the other direction, if we want to talk about extending the route along 42nd.... especially since there's no M50 on the weekends...... But for all practical purposes, I don't think the M104 should be reverted......

 

I disagree... Since the loss of the M104 to the UN, I avoid the West Side more and more because it is such a PITA to go to via the local bus. The M5 runs like crap and is overcrowded and it is the only direct bus that provides some sort of West-East service around Columbus Circle, though it only goes to 5th Avenue before heading South. The M104 forces folks to take an unnecessary transfer if they need to go past 5th Avenue to access the East side, which is completely dumb in my opinion. I'm sure they could structure service so that the M42 was used as was the M104. The way I see it, with the explosion of tourists in the last few years the M104 would be just fine being restored back where it was. Not only that but I see countless folks looking for West-East access at Columbus Circle only to see nothing but M10s and M104s, which do them absolutely no good whatsoever.

 

 

The M1, M2, M3, M4, and M5 routes doesn't need overhauling due to the fact that it has to contend with the traffic along 5th/Madison av....

 

 

I disagree here too... These lines need to be overhauled without a doubt. For starters they need to provide more M2 service and need to do better in terms of buses bunching. The other thing that irks me is it takes forever to get a limited stop bus. You can have four or five local buses pass by before one measley M2 or M5 comes down 5th Avenue. Utterly ridiculous. Granted the local buses are needed because they are well used, but so are the M2 and M5. I would run the M2s every 8 - 10 minutes and the M5s should see service increases as well.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

M50 weekend service was reinstated some time ago....

 

Was done in 2011 actually...

Okay, good... So I no longer have to think about sending the M104 anywhere else.....

 

 

 

 

Then if that's the argument then why bother having the M5 be LTD during the week?? They could simply add more M7s but of course they wouldn't do that. Furthermore, the M7s seem to come in bunches anyway, even with the shortening of its southern terminal.

Ask the MTA that question - they're the ones who felt the M6 wasn't needed anymore..... I surely didn't approve of M5's being sent to S. Ferry.....

Hell, I think the M6 should be brought back & extended up to 72nd & the M5 reverted to ending at Houston... of course, none of which is going to happen.....

 

 

I don't think it has improved to be honest. It's another route that I avoid using unless I have to use it.

 

I don't think it would be a good idea to send it back to Union Sq. simply because it took FOREVER for it to come around, but something should be serving Union Sq. directly besides the M14.

Ok, but the first portion of this statement doesn't really correlate with the second.....

You say it shouldn't be sent back to union square b/c it took forever to head back north - Wait, let me emphasize it the way you did.... FOREVER.... lol...

But in the same breath say that the route hasn't improved?

 

M72... Runs terrible... Period...

I'm not saying it does or doesn't (run terrible), because I don't know.... Which is why I asked....

This is more directed at Yuki, but again, what is wrong with the Schedule; that's why I italicized it the first time around.....

 

I disagree... Since the loss of the M104 to the UN, I avoid the West Side more and more because it is such a PITA to go to via the local bus. The M5 runs like crap and is overcrowded and it is the only direct bus that provides some sort of West-East service around Columbus Circle, though it only goes to 5th Avenue before heading South. The M104 forces folks to take an unnecessary transfer if they need to go past 5th Avenue to access the East side, which is completely dumb in my opinion. I'm sure they could structure service so that the M42 was used as was the M104. The way I see it, with the explosion of tourists in the last few years the M104 would be just fine being restored back where it was. Not only that but I see countless folks looking for West-East access at Columbus Circle only to see nothing but M10s and M104s, which do them absolutely no good whatsoever.

The M104 also has to serve the Upper west side though, that's the thing (which broadway up there, is another headache in itself... even you sided with that notion in an older M104 discussion & how important the route is for them).... Of those that I see that want the M104 back on 42nd never really bring up that spur/section of the route (same deal w/ the M31 & York av, which you say more artics should run on that route on)...

 

Anyway, M104's were often delayed/late because they were coming from the U.N..... Yes, it made for an alternative when the M42 ran worse than what it currently does..... Why not advocate for more service and/or artics along the M42 if that's the case..... Guess what I'm rhetorically asking is, why does the M104 have to account for service not provided on the crosstown route that is the M42......

 

This one, we're just gonna have to disagree..

 

 

I disagree here too... These lines need to be overhauled without a doubt. For starters they need to provide more M2 service and need to do better in terms of buses bunching. The other thing that irks me is it takes forever to get a limited stop bus. You can have four or five local buses pass by before one measley M2 or M5 comes down 5th Avenue. Utterly ridiculous. Granted the local buses are needed because they are well used, but so are the M2 and M5. I would run the M2s every 8 - 10 minutes and the M5s should see service increases as well.

This has everything to do w/ timeliness & serviceability and nothin to do with the overhauling of the physical routings themselves..... That is what I was getting at.....

 

In other words, I don't think the M1-M5 routes should be altered (or overhauled) because of 5th/Madison av traffic....

You can change up any or all those routes physical routings & the traffic on 5th/Madison would be present regardless.....

 

Which is exactly why Cait, in jest, made a reference regarding getting rid of the other vehicles....

Edited April 27, 2012 by B35 via Church

[Threxx]

Okay, good... So I no longer have to think about sending the M104 anywhere else.....

 

Yup.

Ask the MTA that question - they're the ones who felt the M6 wasn't needed anymore..... I surely didn't approve of M5's being sent to S. Ferry.....

Hell, I think the M6 should be brought back & extended up to 72nd & the M5 reverted to ending at Houston... of course, none of which is going to happen.....

 

Funny, I had the same idea...

Ignore the M19. Sorry about small size. My M6 only goes up to 63 Street...

 

Edited April 27, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[B35 via Church]

Funny, I had the same idea...

 

Ignore the M19. Sorry about small size. My M6 only goes up to 63 Street...

 

Cool... and no problem....

 

Here's a thread I posted in sometime last year, where I introduced the M6 extension I'm referring to....

http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

It's a cache of the thread on the old NYCTF before the conversion......

 

Scroll down once you click the link & you'll see a google map.....

 

You can also read the comments others made in that thread if you want to, as well....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

M35, M50, M57: Ok, gotcha.

 

M20: Well wait a second....

If you want th M9 going back to BPC & the M10 sent to 14th (neither of which I think should happen, but still...), then what runs between Chambers & 14th street, west of 6th av? Unless you're tellin those riders, to hell with the bus & make their way to the ....

 

As much as I hate the M20, the service is necessary.

 

In that case, there is the M7. Same through service. Northbound service would shift from 8 to 6 Avenue at 14 STREET. The M10 would take over from that point.

[B35 via Church]

In that case, there is the M7. Same through service. Northbound service would shift from 8 to 6 Avenue at 14 STREET. The M10 would take over from that point.

So you would not retain the M7, as you originally stated......

 

Now I get you.

[Threxx]

Cool... and no problem....

 

Here's a thread I posted in sometime last year, where I introduced the M6 extension I'm referring to....

http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

It's a cache of the thread on the old NYCTF before the conversion......

 

Scroll down once you click the link & you'll see a google map.....

 

You can also read the comments others made in that thread if you want to, as well....

 

 

The only reason I see it going all the way to 72 Street is for connection with the M72...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ask the MTA that question - they're the ones who felt the M6 wasn't needed anymore..... I surely didn't approve of M5's being sent to S. Ferry.....

Hell, I think the M6 should be brought back & extended up to 72nd & the M5 reverted to ending at Houston... of course, none of which is going to happen.....

 

I just think having no limited stop service on Saturdays along 6th Avenue is ridiculous and aside from that the buses are crush loaded, so you get the pleasure of stopping at every stop AND no limited service to boot. It's no wonder why fewer folks are using the buses.

 

 

Ok, but the first portion of this statement doesn't really correlate with the second.....

You say it shouldn't be sent back to union square b/c it took forever to head back north - Wait, let me emphasize it the way you did.... FOREVER.... lol...

But in the same breath say that the route hasn't improved?

 

Yeah they still bunch like crazy if not worse now that's why it doesn't feel like service has improved... They seem to get held up coming from Harlem or something because I usually see them running in bunches. They used to run better IMO, though they would get caught by Union Sq. I'm not sure if service was cut or what but they take longer to come than before and are more bunched now too.

 

The M104 also has to serve the Upper west side though, that's the thing (which broadway up there, is another headache in itself... even you sided with that notion in an older M104 discussion & how important the route is for them).... Of those that I see that want the M104 back on 42nd never really bring up that spur/section of the route (same deal w/ the M31 & York av, which you say more artics should run on that route on)...

 

Anyway, M104's were often delayed/late because they were coming from the U.N..... Yes, it made for an alternative when the M42 ran worse than what it currently does..... Why not advocate for more service and/or artics along the M42 if that's the case..... Guess what I'm rhetorically asking is, why does the M104 have to account for service not provided on the crosstown route that is the M42......

 

Well I'm simply saying that the M104s should be restored back to U.N. and it is more of an issue of having West East service from the Upper West Side and Columbus Circle and not having to make two transfers. On the same token, it would also help out the M42s that get crush loaded in the morning coming from the Port Authority. That begs the question, why doesn't the M42s have artics anyway? You would think it would be a given.

 

 

 

 

This has everything to do w/ timeliness & serviceability and nothin to do with the overhauling of the physical routings themselves..... That is what I was getting at.....

 

In other words, I don't think the M1-M5 routes should be altered (or overhauled) because of 5th/Madison av traffic....

You can change up any or all those routes physical routings & the traffic on 5th/Madison would be present regardless.....

 

Which is exactly why Cait, in jest, made a reference regarding getting rid of the other vehicles....

 

 

Well I don't know about that. I think some tweaks could be made, particularly to the service in Northern Manhattan. The traffic along 5th & Madison can be problematic, but I think the real issue is in Northern Manhattan. I still don't understand why the M4s seem more common than say M3s. Even M1s seem to come more often than M2s... I just realized that they actually cut back service on the M2 which would explain why it seems to take forever to get one... It used to be every 12 mins for most of the day, not it's every 15 mins, which can easily become 25 - 30 mins if one of them is delayed... Utterly ridiculous.

[B35 via Church]

I just think having no limited stop service on Saturdays along 6th Avenue is ridiculous.....

Yeah, that's the consensus.....

 

Yeah they still bunch like crazy if not worse now that's why it doesn't feel like service has improved... They seem to get held up coming from Harlem or something because I usually see them running in bunches. They used to run better IMO, though they would get caught by Union Sq. I'm not sure if service was cut or what but they take longer to come than before and are more bunched now too.

Not Harlem itself, but up there around W. 72nd/Lincoln Ctr/Columbus circle; that whole stretch is where the bunching problems tend to originate at..... Yes, bunching is a problem on that route; not denying that..... Still though, ever since M7's aren't coming from union square (anymore), I find that the M7 is a little easier to catch.... I'm not implicating that the M7 vastly/greatly improved per se, but I can't say the M7 hasn't improved either.....

 

Well I'm simply saying that the M104s should be restored back to U.N. and it is more of an issue of having West East service from the Upper West Side and Columbus Circle and not having to make two transfers. On the same token, it would also help out the M42s that get crush loaded in the morning coming from the Port Authority. That begs the question, why doesn't the M42s have artics anyway? You would think it would be a given.

Oh I understand your point, I just don't agree that the M104 should be reverted....

 

Far as running of artics on the M42, I'm not sure....

I'm not up on bus/depot moves or whatever, but I wonder how many artics quill even has left over, after dedicating the ones they do have to the M14a/d & the M23.....

 

 

Well I don't know about that. I think some tweaks could be made, particularly to the service in Northern Manhattan. The traffic along 5th & Madison can be problematic, but I think the real issue is in Northern Manhattan. I still don't understand why the M4s seem more common than say M3s. Even M1s seem to come more often than M2s... I just realized that they actually cut back service on the M2 which would explain why it seems to take forever to get one... It used to be every 12 mins for most of the day, not it's every 15 mins, which can easily become 25 - 30 mins if one of them is delayed... Utterly ridiculous.

What is it do you not know about.... I mean, do you really seriously think that altering the 5th/Madison physical routes would make traffic any better on 5th/Madison? I'd stop to think that is a cut & dry, irrefutable point.....

 

What you're bringing up about the 5th/Madison routes & what JW is trying to suggest when he mentions overhauling the 5th/Madison routes are dissimilar..... You are illustrating the problems on the 5th/Madison routes (which no one is disputing) - Whereas JW, with this statement:

 

Among the M1,2,3,4 and 5 an overhaul is needed. I would like to see what anyone can come up with.

 

...is suggesting that if the routes were somehow overhauled, things could/would be better..... You can tinker with the routings all you like, the amount of traffic along 5th/Madison will remain stagnant.... The buses still have to use 5th/Madison.... You cannot change two constants (in this case, the traffic along 5th/Madison and the buses having to pan along 5th/madison) & expect a variable (in this case, an improvement in service) to emerge from it.....

 

In plain english, there's nothin that can really be done.....

[Threxx]

I'll try.

 

M1: Service restored to the East Village all times.

M2: Headways increased:

AM Rush: 5-7 Min

Middays: 10 Min

PM Rush: 6-7 Min

Late PM Rush: 7-8 Min

M3: LTD service similar to M2 LTD service is implemented. Local buses run 168 St-St. Nicholas Ave-East Village when LTD is running. Headways increased similarly to M2.

M4: No change.

M5: Weekend LTD service added. Off peak buses terminate at Houston St. Use M6.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What is it do you not know about.... I mean, do you really seriously think that altering the 5th/Madison physical routes would make traffic any better on 5th/Madison? I'd stop to think that is a cut & dry, irrefutable point.....

 

What you're bringing up about the 5th/Madison routes & what JW is trying to suggest when he mentions overhauling the 5th/Madison routes are dissimilar..... You are illustrating the problems on the 5th/Madison routes (which no one is disputing) - Whereas JW, with this statement:

 

Among the M1,2,3,4 and 5 an overhaul is needed. I would like to see what anyone can come up with.

 

...is suggesting that if the routes were somehow overhauled, things could/would be better..... You can tinker with the routings all you like, the amount of traffic along 5th/Madison will remain stagnant.... The buses still have to use 5th/Madison.... You cannot change two constants (in this case, the traffic along 5th/Madison and the buses having to pan along 5th/madison) & expect a variable (in this case, an improvement in service) to emerge from it.....

 

In plain english, there's nothin that can really be done.....

 

 

My apologies... I wasn't necessarily referring to 5th/Madison Avenues when talking about tweaking the routes, but perhaps tweaking some of them further North in shortening some of the termini or short turning some buses up north. They already have some buses only running to 23rd street Southbound, so why not do it for some buses in the Northern direction... That was my point.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So you would not retain the M7, as you originally stated......

 

Now I get you.

 

Correct. In this case, M20 riders from 14 street to 63 still have the M7/10

Southbound Service will also remain one-seated

Northbound riders would have to transfer to the M10 from points south of 14 street if they are going to point north on 8 Avenue

[Threxx]

My apologies... I wasn't necessarily referring to 5th/Madison Avenues when talking about tweaking the routes, but perhaps tweaking some of them further North in shortening some of the termini or short turning some buses up north. They already have some buses only running to 23rd street Southbound, so why not do it for some buses in the Northern direction... That was my point.

 

 

Some M2, 3, or 4 buses could turn around at 110 St.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

When I was thinking about a Madison/5 Av overhaul I was thinking more about a streamlining effort than playing with the routes themselves. The M1,2,3,4 are incredibly redundant between 110th and 34th Street so why not run them as if they are one route? In other words, the MTA should pick one of those routes to prioritize and make sure that one gets artics, lower headways, and possibly +SBS in the future. The others would just be supplements and feeders to the corridor itself.

[checkmatechamp13]

1) I just think having no limited stop service on Saturdays along 6th Avenue is ridiculous and aside from that the buses are crush loaded, so you get the pleasure of stopping at every stop AND no limited service to boot. It's no wonder why fewer folks are using the buses.

 

2) Well I don't know about that. I think some tweaks could be made, particularly to the service in Northern Manhattan. The traffic along 5th & Madison can be problematic, but I think the real issue is in Northern Manhattan. I still don't understand why the M4s seem more common than say M3s. Even M1s seem to come more often than M2s... I just realized that they actually cut back service on the M2 which would explain why it seems to take forever to get one... It used to be every 12 mins for most of the day, not it's every 15 mins, which can easily become 25 - 30 mins if one of them is delayed... Utterly ridiculous.

 

 

1) Part of it may have to do with covering for the M7, but at the very least, every other bus should run limited.

 

2) If you're usually going southbound and aren't traveling a long distance, can't you just take the M1 or M3?

 

My apologies... I wasn't necessarily referring to 5th/Madison Avenues when talking about tweaking the routes, but perhaps tweaking some of them further North in shortening some of the termini or short turning some buses up north. They already have some buses only running to 23rd street Southbound, so why not do it for some buses in the Northern direction... That was my point.

 

 

Because in the northern direction, you don't have as many options. You have the M1/2/3/5 (southbound only) in the East Village, but if you cut back say M2s from going all the way up to Washington Heights, then the people north of whatever point you decide to short-turn the buses get even less service.

[Threxx]

When I was thinking about a Madison/5 Av overhaul I was thinking more about a streamlining effort than playing with the routes themselves. The M1,2,3,4 are incredibly redundant between 110th and 34th Street so why not run them as if they are one route? In other words, the MTA should pick one of those routes to prioritize and make sure that one gets artics, lower headways, and possibly +SBS in the future. The others would just be supplements and feeders to the corridor itself.

 

 

Have the M1 & 4 run full route. The M2 & 3 will connect at 106th St. This is what I imagine you're proposing, or something of the sort.

 

Not that good. The 4 routes combined make for quick service in that corridor. No need for artics now, or ever.

[B35 via Church]

When I was thinking about a Madison/5 Av overhaul I was thinking more about a streamlining effort than playing with the routes themselves. The M1,2,3,4 are incredibly redundant between 110th and 34th Street so why not run them as if they are one route? In other words, the MTA should pick one of those routes to prioritize and make sure that one gets artics, lower headways, and possibly +SBS in the future. The others would just be supplements and feeders to the corridor itself.

 

That's actually worse than tinkering with the individual routes themselves....

 

In other words, decide b/w which of these riders are more important [(5th/Madison), (7th av/A.C. Powell jr blvd), (St Nicholas av), (Broadway), and (Riverside Drive & [broadway in washington hgts])] north of Central Park north, making that the more prevalent/prioritized route, and the remaining routes would be minimized to feeder status.....

 

Don't agree with that general notion at all..... Each of those routes should be treated individually....

[Threxx]

From what I've seen, I think a real dedicated bus lane, SBS style needs to be added along all of these streets. 5th, Madison, 3rd, and Lexington.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

That's actually worse than tinkering with the individual routes themselves....

 

In other words, decide b/w which of these riders are more important [(5th/Madison), (7th av/A.C. Powell jr blvd), (St Nicholas av), (Broadway), and (Riverside Drive & [broadway in washington hgts])] north of Central Park north, making that the more prevalent/prioritized route, and the remaining routes would be minimized to feeder status.....

 

Don't agree with that general notion at all..... Each of those routes should be treated individually....

As far as my plan goes this "decision" you speak of wouldn't be based on "importance". I would base it on what these riders prefer for their route. The MTA can do a study and figure out if a particular area would rather have the coverage provided by it's current Madison/5 Av service or would rather not deal with the delays associated with the traffic. At the end of the day (we're ignoring the M5 in this discussion) 2 routes would become the "feeders" and gain better reliability north of Central Park. The other 2 keep their service pattern except with higher frequency. The higher frequency will make minimize the impact of delays on the those routes. This is Manhattan here, coverage (the only thing being sacrificed) isn't a huge issue.

[B35 via Church]

As far as my plan goes this "decision" you speak of wouldn't be based on "importance". I would base it on what these riders prefer for their route. The MTA can do a study and figure out if a particular area would rather have the coverage provided by it's current Madison/5 Av service or would rather not deal with the delays associated with the traffic. At the end of the day (we're ignoring the M5 in this discussion) 2 routes would become the "feeders" and gain better reliability north of Central Park. The other 2 keep their service pattern except with higher frequency. The higher frequency will make minimize the impact of delays on the those routes. This is Manhattan here, coverage (the only thing being sacrificed) isn't a huge issue.

....which is based on importance.

 

Anyway, you say all of this as if the M1-5 doesn't have a lot of unique riders north of central park north...... damn the supposed streamlining of the routes & leave all 5 of them as separate routes....

 

Furthermore, you used the word prioritize....

How else is the MTA supposed to "pick one of those routes to prioritize" without singling out a certain set of riders.... Come on now....

Edited April 28, 2012 by B35 via Church

[Mysterious2train]

M5: Agreed... They took away weekend LTD service due to the discontinuation of the M6.... I still say the M6 was one of those rare routes that seemed like it had more weekend ridership than weekday ridership....

 

 

The M5 Limited has always been Weekdays only.

[qjtransitmaster]

manhattan local buses = SLOW!!! with exceptions

[B35 via Church]

The M5 Limited has always been Weekdays only.

M5 never had LTD weekend service.... I'm not so sure about that.....

(finally, the forum has the strikethrough option)

 

Now I definitely recall taking M5's that made LTD stops on saturdays when the M6 ran.... When I worked weekends, sometimes I'd walk on over to 6th/Houston b/c I didn't feel like being bothered w/ the subway... and I sure as hell wasn't waitin for no M20 up to 34th st on a saturday.....

Edited April 29, 2012 by B35 via Church

[Threxx]

Since I can't find the Manhattan Bus Proposals thread, I have to make a new thread.

 

Here is a map of this M19, an eastern version of the M15.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213458373195564989412.0004c2961681323731a5d&msa=0&ll=40.764421,-74.010773&spn=0.102453,0.154324

 

If a mod sees this, please combine this thread with the Manhattan bus thread.