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Best article I've read about reactivating the Rockaway Beach line


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It's wasn't that long ago that I posted in this thread yet here we are, in "Foamer's Paradise" any way. The way I understood the article it was the author's idea to use the ROW to connect the northern part of Queens with the southern part of the borough. A direct connection within the borough instead of one via Manhattan. IMO the simplest way to do that, and the cheapest, is to rebuild Liberty Junction and reconnect the Rockaway line with the existing LIRR ROW and have riders TRANSFER to the LIRR or subway on the northern end if they wished to continue toward Manhattan. I don't think the author envisioned any connection with the QB lines or a Super Express but an easier way to travel within his own borough. Since the MTA and the state are crying poverty at the moment it's my opinion that if any plan is enacted the author's plan is the only realistic one and we should focus on that right now. I'd love to see the IND Second System be built but let's be real and focus on what's possible. Just my opinion. Carry on.

 

 

That could work, but I don't think that would get nearly enough ridership to justify rebuilding the whole line again. I see that line as the perfect subway addition to Queens. While not simple, it's definitely a whole lot cheaper than building brand new tunnels in developed areas.

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But wouldn't a (G) connection do the same thing? No connection to Manhattan, and it has plenty of transfers to Manhattan. Also the tunnel already exist, or at least part of it. Credits to Threexxbus for pointing it out. Now all that needs to be done is a few more blocks of digging and then connect it to the tunnel portals that were built in 1929 for this purpose. Extend it down a bit and done. Fully connected by subway. Of course people are going to have to remove their backyards, and the buses and those baseball fields have to be removed but that is what you get for illegally putting your stuff on a property that isn't yours.

 

http://www.nycsubway...ations?219:3401

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The Queens Blvd line can handle more than 2 locals, the issue is that Continental can barely turn them fast enough. If you have a 3rd local branching off to Far Rockaway, that would be fine.

 

I guess it can work after all. But I would think that the (M) may have to go via 63rd because switching from the express to local along with the (G) running on QB would complicate and delay things. Obviously that would then mean 63rd would be under used again.
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Okay, here is my diagnosis:

(A)/©/(E) - No Changes.

*Current Pattern serves it's purpose.

(F)/(M) - Select peak hour (M) run via 63rd St. Tunnel.

*The (M) and (F)'s current arrangement is still the best bang for the buck.

(N)/(Q)/® - No Changes.

*Current Pattern serves it's purpose, although the (N) should be Express to avoid that switching between Chinatown and Houston St.

(G) - Return of Weekend Service to relieve the (R) ~unless~ (E) runs Local on Queens Blvd. Line.

 

-Rockaway (S) -> Letter Change -> (H). Route: Rockaway Park via Howard Beach, via Aqueduct, via Woodhaven Blvd. parallel [or ex-LIRR Rockaway ROW], via Queens Blvd. Local, via 8th Ave. Express (or Local), last stop Lower East Side - Second Ave. Line ends at a new Rego Park Station by the LIRR ROW on Weekends and Late Nights. New LIRR station would also be built at Rego Park for transfers to the (H).

 

*This pattern would carry a direct alternate connection from the Rockaways/JFK Airport to Midtown, Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station. Would also partially enhance LGA Access with connections to the Q72 Bus in Rego Park, and Q33 and Q47 Bus at Jackson Heights.

 

*Queens Blvd. Line, 6th Ave. and 8th Ave. Lines as well as the 53rd and 63rd St. Lines will need schedule enhancements.

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-Rockaway (S) -> Letter Change -> (H). Route: Rockaway Park via Howard Beach, via Aqueduct, via Woodhaven Blvd. parallel [or ex-LIRR Rockaway ROW], via Queens Blvd. Local, via 8th Ave. Express (or Local), last stop Lower East Side - Second Ave. Line ends at a new Rego Park Station by the LIRR ROW on Weekends and Late Nights. New LIRR station would also be built at Rego Park for transfers to the (H).

 

I like the idea, but it would be very hectic running the (H) on the 8 Av Local (It can't run Express to get to 2 Av) with the (C)(E). The (E) could get a promotion to 8 Av Express, but it still wouldn't work because the (H) would have some trouble with the (F)(M), causing delays, making the switches reset too late, and plus with the (M) branching off, that presents even more of a problem.

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@Keystone, only problem with the 2nd av terminal would be holding up W4th because you already have the (F)(M) running and having to hold up for the (H) can back everything up.

My idea with the (G) eliminates the issue about having a 5th Manhattan-QB line as it would keep the line in Queens and the Rockaway riders would likely transfer to the express, so you don't really need a direct to Manhattan line.

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I like the idea, but it would be very hectic running the (H) on the 8 Av Local (It can't run Express to get to 2 Av) with the (C)(E). The (E) could get a promotion to 8 Av Express, but it still wouldn't work because the (H) would have some trouble with the (F)(M), causing delays, making the switches reset too late, and plus with the (M) branching off, that presents even more of a problem.

 

@Keystone, only problem with the 2nd av terminal would be holding up W4th because you already have the (F)(M) running and having to hold up for the (H) can back everything up.

My idea with the (G) eliminates the issue about having a 5th Manhattan-QB line as it would keep the line in Queens and the Rockaway riders would likely transfer to the express, so you don't really need a direct to Manhattan line.

 

Well, guess the 8th Ave. Local it is then, but some (C)'s or (E)'s could go Express if needed. But, if the potential (H) won't work, perhaps the (G) could do. However, I do hope some of the (G) stations get enhanced so 8 75-foot cars would be running smoothly. But, I guess the equipment on this (G) pattern will be running out of both Coney Island and Jamaica Yard.

 

Also, good point on the (F)/(M) Thing.

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@Keystone, only problem with the 2nd av terminal would be holding up W4th because you already have the (F)(M) running and having to hold up for the (H) can back everything up.

My idea with the (G) eliminates the issue about having a 5th Manhattan-QB line as it would keep the line in Queens and the Rockaway riders would likely transfer to the express, so you don't really need a direct to Manhattan line.

 

Which is one of the problems brought up with my previously noted idea of making the (C) the Culver Express because of Broadway-Lafayette handling three locals (©/(F)/(M)) there.

 

Modifying my plan noted earlier:

 

(R) replaces the (N) as the full-time route to Astoria and also switches Brooklyn terminals with the D, with the D going to 95th Street-Brooklyn and the R to Coney Island (this so the R has Coney Island for a yard since the D has Concourse Yard). D is now a 4th Avenue local and no longer skips DeKalb Avenue, while the R remains a 4th Avenue local from 36th to Atlantic-Pacific. Both are now 24/7 routes with the current overnight R shuttle eliminated (this part unchanged).

 

(N) continues to operate as it does to Astoria, but on weekdays only from 5:30 AM-10:00 PM. Late nights and weekends, the (N) goes with the (Q) to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement SAS service during those hours, however, when needed outside of weekdays the (N) can run to Astoria instead (this part also unchanged).

 

A new (W) train operates Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park via the Queens Boulevard local and the connector to the former LIRR Rockaway Line, replacing the (R) as the Broadway line via QB.

 

The (M) becomes at least a 19/7 line to 71-Continental. When the M is NOT running, the (G) replaces the M between Queens Plaza-71st Continental and otherwise runs its current route (change from original plan).

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Which is one of the problems brought up with my previously noted idea of making the (C) the Culver Express because of Broadway-Lafayette handling three locals ( ©/ (F)/ (M)) there.

 

Modifying my plan noted earlier:

 

(R) replaces the (N) as the full-time route to Astoria and also switches Brooklyn terminals with the D, with the D going to 95th Street-Brooklyn and the R to Coney Island (this so the R has Coney Island for a yard since the D has Concourse Yard). D is now a 4th Avenue local and no longer skips DeKalb Avenue, while the R remains a 4th Avenue local from 36th to Atlantic-Pacific. Both are now 24/7 routes with the current overnight R shuttle eliminated (this part unchanged).

 

(N) continues to operate as it does to Astoria, but on weekdays only from 5:30 AM-10:00 PM. Late nights and weekends, the (N) goes with the (Q) to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement SAS service during those hours, however, when needed outside of weekdays the (N) can run to Astoria instead (this part also unchanged).

 

A new (W) train operates Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park via the Queens Boulevard local and the connector to the former LIRR Rockaway Line, replacing the (R) as the Broadway line via QB.

 

The (M) becomes at least a 19/7 line to 71-Continental. When the M is NOT running, the (G) replaces the M between Queens Plaza-71st Continental and otherwise runs its current route (change from original plan).

 

 

 

That won't work, switching with the (D) will require a mass of switching.

 

Most of this royally screws the Broadway line as well. My proposal is superior.

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I like Keystone's (H) idea. Roadcruiser's complaint that QBL can't handle 3 lines is BS, it's just that Continental can't handle more that 2.

 

I think the (G) would probably be the best line. When the SAS is finished to Phase 3, as I said, a new light blue (K) line would open, Houston St-Rockaways, providing a direct Manhattan connection. The (G) would be pushed back to Court Sq at that point.

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But as I said, how are you going to fit this (K) to 2nd av when you have the (F)(M) running? using the W4th switches would interrupt all the locals there and who's to say it will even be filled? I don't see the need for a direct to Manhattan Rockaway via QB line. Riders will likely just switch to the express at Roosevelt and go to Manhattan from there. This is how the (G) makes sense. Plus it being the Rockaways, there probably won't be as many riders, so I believe a 4-car train should be sufficient for the moment.

 

 

No, when the SAS opens, the (K) will run there, read the post! I understand the (G) makes sense now, but even if was the (G), the trains should be full length.

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That won't work, switching with the (D) will require a mass of switching.

 

Most of this royally screws the Broadway line as well. My proposal is superior.

 

My plan actually has the (D) in Brooklyn on the same routing it currently has in the overnight after 9th Avenue, when the (D) is a local. The (D) would replace the (R) as the primary 4th Avenue local and would be a LOCAL to Atlantic-Pacific, NOT express (unless you want to have the (D) join the (N) on the express track after 36th, where the (R) would join in this version) before stopping at DeKalb on the "local" (outer) track as opposed to the bypass track.

 

The reason for my doing it the way I have it has to do with the likelihood to me that Genting (parent company of Resorts World, the company that operates the casino at Aqueduct and the company that likely will be building the new convention center at Aqueduct) is based in Malaysia and probably still thinks of lower Manhattan as the financial district even we know if it isn't what it once was in that regard, and if they are footing the bill for a rebuild of the LIRR Rockaway Branch to connect to QB I suspect would because of perceptions insist on such a line going through lower Manhattan. That is why my proposal is as it is with the (W) serving as a new line from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park as the new QB line and the line that goes via that connection, while the (R) goes to Astoria and the (N) is a weekday Astoria-late night/weekend SAS supplement while the (D) and (R) swap Brooklyn routes with the (D) as a local all the way on 4th avenue and the (R) also local to 36th.

 

I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who is from not only outside New York, but outside the US in this case.

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My plan actually has the (D) in Brooklyn on the same routing it currently has in the overnight after 9th Avenue, when the (D) is a local. The (D) would replace the (R) as the primary 4th Avenue local and would be a LOCAL to Atlantic-Pacific, NOT express (unless you want to have the (D) join the (N) on the express track after 36th, where the (R) would join in this version) before stopping at DeKalb on the "local" (outer) track as opposed to the bypass track.

 

The reason for my doing it the way I have it has to do with the likelihood to me that Genting (parent company of Resorts World, the company that operates the casino at Aqueduct and the company that likely will be building the new convention center at Aqueduct) is based in Malaysia and probably still thinks of lower Manhattan as the financial district even we know if it isn't what it once was in that regard, and if they are footing the bill for a rebuild of the LIRR Rockaway Branch to connect to QB I suspect would because of perceptions insist on such a line going through lower Manhattan. That is why my proposal is as it is with the (W) serving as a new line from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park as the new QB line and the line that goes via that connection, while the (R) goes to Astoria and the (N) is a weekday Astoria-late night/weekend SAS supplement while the (D) and (R) swap Brooklyn routes with the (D) as a local all the way on 4th avenue and the (R) also local to 36th.

 

I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who is from not only outside New York, but outside the US in this case.

 

 

The (A) already goes to Lower Manhattan. We are not talking about the casino, were talking about the needs of the residents. You have unnecessary switching on 4th. We don't need all of this, when we can just extend the (G). My proposal is superior and more sensible than this track maze you want trains to go through.

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No, when the SAS opens, the (K) will run there, read the post! I understand the (G) makes sense now, but even if was the (G), the trains should be full length.

 

 

There is no way that a (K) line will ever come into existence on Second Avenue since we don't even know if the Second Avenue Subway would ever go pass phase 2. For now the Second Avenue Subway is not an option. Right now what really matters is to connect the Rockaway Beach Branch to the rest of the NYC Subway System since not everyone can afford the LIRR, and it won't be able to run along with the subway in the Rockaways.

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'Bout time the truth was served.

 

Quite frankly, I crunched some numbers, and the (G) can fit on Queens Boulevard. He's saying nothing can fit like there is a serious TPH problem in the subway.

 

It depends on how often the M and R run. The M runs 8 tph and the R runs 10 tph - 18 total. So the G could fit. For now. But what happens if there is more of a demand for the M or R, either on QB or elsewhere in the system? There's also the fumigation issue. M and R crews have to make sure there's no one left on their trains when they leave Continental Ave and head to the relay tracks. It can cause local trains to get backed up waiting to get into Continental. Add the G into that mix and it could be a recipe for disaster. That's why I think it would be better to simply extend the R onto the Rockaway Line.
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I like Keystone's (H) idea. Roadcruiser's complaint that QBL can't handle 3 lines is BS, it's just that Continental can't handle more that 2.

 

I think the (G) would probably be the best line. When the SAS is finished to Phase 3, as I said, a new light blue (K) line would open, Houston St-Rockaways, providing a direct Manhattan connection. The (G) would be pushed back to Court Sq at that point.

 

 

The Queens Blvd Local used to have the (G)(R)(V)...

 

But I do agree about the (G) plan.

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The (R) is already slow. My friends and people I know complain about how slow the (R) is. Some people already call it the retarded line since it begins with (R). I think the easier option which I pointed out would be the (M). The (G) should best run super express on it's own tracks. That way it won't be interfered with by other lines.

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There is no way that a (K) line will ever come into existence on Second Avenue since we don't even know if the Second Avenue Subway would ever go pass phase 2. For now the Second Avenue Subway is not an option. Right now what really matters is to connect the Rockaway Beach Branch to the rest of the NYC Subway System since not everyone can afford the LIRR, and it won't be able to run along with the subway in the Rockaways.

 

 

Again, making literal out of hypothetical. It's a possibilty, if Phase III opens. The (G) can fit on QBL with current headways. Learn the TPH of the (R)(M), and (G). Combined, they're less than 30 TPH.

 

It depends on how often the M and R run. The M runs 8 tph and the R runs 10 tph - 18 total. So the G could fit. For now. But what happens if there is more of a demand for the M or R, either on QB or elsewhere in the system? There's also the fumigation issue. M and R crews have to make sure there's no one left on their trains when they leave Continental Ave and head to the relay tracks. It can cause local trains to get backed up waiting to get into Continental. Add the G into that mix and it could be a recipe for disaster. That's why I think it would be better to simply extend the R onto the Rockaway Line.

 

 

The (G) isn't going to Continental, and I always thought the (M) or (R) should go to 179th to avoid that.

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Again, making literal out of hypothetical. It's a possibilty, if Phase III opens. The (G) can fit on QBL with current headways. Learn the TPH of the (R), (M), and (G). Combined, they're less than 30 TPH.

 

 

Again if service is increased then there won't be enough room. Service would also be much slower for people on the Rockaway Line. They want fast service not local service. The best idea is to give the (G) it's own tunnel, and just avoid the Second Avenue Subway for now.

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Again if service is increased then there won't be enough room. Service would also be much slower for people on the Rockaway Line. They want fast service not local service. The best idea is to give the (G) it's own tunnel, and just avoid the Second Avenue Subway for now.

 

 

I said if Phase III opens, first of all. Second, even if service is increased, 10 + 8 + 6 is 24. There are 6 trains to spare. The (MTA) dosen't have millions to build any new tunnel. Rockaway residents can transfer to the (E) or (F). You said yourself there is no room for any more service in Manhattan. Look, your own words coming back to haunt you... <_<

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I said if Phase III opens, first of all. Second, even if service is increased, 10 + 8 + 6 is 24. There are 6 trains to spare. The (MTA) dosen't have millions to build any new tunnel. Rockaway residents can transfer to the (E) or (F). You said yourself there is no room for any more service in Manhattan. Look, your own words coming back to haunt you... <_<

 

 

I know there isn't room. The (M) however could run more trains. At least 5 trains more. This would make (G) service less frequent. Since the TPH on the local tracks on Sixth Avenue is 25. There isn't enough room for another subway service on Sixth Avenue because then it won't run as frequently. That would be room for extra (M) trains. If you also increase the amount of (M) trains running the IND Queens Boulevard Line local tracks would result with a higher TPH. This would result in infrequent (G) service. Now there won't be enough (G) trains to handle the demands on the Rockaway Beach Line. That would only make problems worse. Of course now if they also add more (R) trains which is possible right now the local tracks would be full on the IND Queens Boulevard Line. No room for the (G). It just won't work. The idea is since the Roosevelt Avenue station already exists and the portals to the Rockaway Beach Line already mostly exists all that is needed would be to connect all of this together and then send it down the branch. It requires very little tunneling since most of this already exists. I estimate this would take as long as the first phase of the Second Avenue Subway, but once done it would benefit. This project could use money from taxes, congestion pricing, and tolling. Now the project has the money to be completed.

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I know there isn't room. The (M) however could run more trains. At least 5 trains more. This would make (G) service less frequent. Since the TPH on the local tracks on Sixth Avenue is 25. There isn't enough room for another subway service on Sixth Avenue because then it won't run as frequently. That would be room for extra (M) trains. If you also increase the amount of (M) trains running the IND Queens Boulevard Line local tracks would result with a higher TPH. This would result in infrequent (G) service. Now there won't be enough (G) trains to handle the demands on the Rockaway Beach Line. That would only make problems worse. Of course now if they also add more (R) trains which is possible right now the local tracks would be full on the IND Queens Boulevard Line. No room for the (G). It just won't work. The idea is since the Roosevelt Avenue station already exists and the portals to the Rockaway Beach Line already mostly exists is just to connect all of this together and then send it down on the branch. It requires very little tunneling since most of this already exists. I estimate this would take as long as the first phase of the Second Avenue Subway, but once done it would benefit. This project could use money from taxes, congestion pricing, and tolling. Now the project has the money to be completed.

 

 

Check a map! The Roosevelt terminal station is nowhere near the old line. Taxes won't increase themselves, and in this bad economy, no one needs more tax money. Congestion pricing is a novel idea, but will never happen. And don't get me started on tolls. Even if the (M) went up to 12, the (G) could go up to 8. There is space, you are basing all of your argument on the hypothetical and impossible. The super express tunnel has no money to be funded with! I don't know what world you are living in, but on Earth, there is no money to fund it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just not feasible.

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