Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[BrooklynBus]

The B2 may still be crowded during the rush hours, but at other times when people don't need the subway that much, buses are virtually empty. That's why it needs to go to places other than the subway and must make connections to other bus lines.

[B35 via Church]

The B2 may still be crowded during the rush hours, but at other times when people don't need the subway that much, buses are virtually empty. That's why it needs to go to places other than the subway and must make connections to other bus lines.

You know that & I know that... but Threxx is coming across as if hardly anyone takes the route, no matter what time of the day it is....

 

As far as sending the B2 elsewhere (instead of cutting it like Shortline mentioned.... or merging it w/ some other route like a couple others have mentioned across the forums), your original idea of having that route serve Av P & 65th, etc. to me makes the most sense.....

[Shortline Bus]

You know that & I know that... but Threxx is coming across as if hardly anyone takes the route, no matter what time of the day it is....

 

As far as sending the B2 elsewhere (instead of cutting it like Shortline mentioned.... or merging it w/ some other route like a couple others have mentioned across the forums), your original idea of having that route serve Av P & 65th, etc. to me makes the most sense.....

 

 

 

I forgot to mention in my ideas before that the "B2" would become a rush hour only line while the "B100" basically replaces it(B2)with expanded service 7 days a week.

[Threxx]

The B2 isn't crush loaded during middays. The B31 & B100 get ridership during that time. I still think the B100 should be rerouted to replace the B2.

[B36 Via Ave U]

If they give the newly combined B100 15 min alll day headways on Saturday and 15 Min from 7-11 AM, 20 Mins till 3 Pm, 15 Mins from 3-7 Pm, and 20 Mins till 11 PM on Sunday I think it would be a success, keeping its good weekday headways. And don;t hammer me for this, but if the B2 were remodeled, how exactly would you remodel it?

[Mysterious2train]

I don't know if someone's proposed an idea like this:

 

The B2 would be "eliminated", and there'd be two routes, the B100 and B101, running between Bay Ridge and Mill Basin.

The B100 and B101 use the B2 proposed routing in Borough Park on Avenue P and E 65th St, etc.

The B101 is identical to the B100, except that it serves Kings Plaza and the B100 does not.

 

B101 route deviation: Fillmore Av -> Flatbush Av -> Avenue U -> E 66th St

 

B100 and B101 service combined would represent current B2 and B100 service combined. Not all trips would run all the way to Bay Ridge; some trips would short-turn between Kings Highway station on the Brighton line and Mill Basin. Also, between Gerristen Av and the subway station, the B100 and B101 would run on Avenue R instead of Fillmore Av (via the B2 and B31 routing)

Edited April 5, 2012 by Mysterious2train

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know if someone's proposed an idea like this:

 

The B2 would be "eliminated", and there'd be two routes, the B100 and B101, running between Bay Ridge and Mill Basin.

The B100 and B101 use the B2 proposed routing in Borough Park on Avenue P and E 65th St, etc.

The B101 is identical to the B100, except that it serves Kings Plaza and the B100 does not.

 

B101 route deviation: Fillmore Av -> Flatbush Av -> Avenue U -> E 66th St

 

B100 and B101 service combined would represent current B2 and B100 service combined. Not all trips would run all the way to Bay Ridge; some trips would short-turn between Kings Highway station on the Brighton line and Mill Basin. Also, between Gerristen Av and the subway station, the B100 and B101 would run on Avenue R instead of Fillmore Av (via the B2 and B31 routing)

 

 

Terrible idea... Why would two routes be needed #1 and #2 why would you need 3 friggin' buses running along Ave R?? (B100, B101 and B31)

[checkmatechamp13]

Eh. It's not the worst idea.

 

As of now, there are really 2 routes (the B2 and B100) that run a block apart. I've always said it's better to have 2 buses down one street rather than have them one block apart. That way, rather than showing up to the stop and worrying about whether you missed the bus that runs every 20 minutes and have to walk to the other bus, you simply show up and the most you'll wait is 10 minutes (Rush hour service is pretty frequent, but off-peak service is infrequent on the B100).

 

As for sending them to Bay Ridge, like I've mentioned before, I think it's a good idea to help make Brooklyn's system more grid-like.

 

As for running them on Avenue R, it's the same logic: Rather than have the routes a block apart, it's better to have them on the same street.

[BrooklynBus]

Eh. It's not the worst idea.

 

As of now, there are really 2 routes (the B2 and B100) that run a block apart. I've always said it's better to have 2 buses down one street rather than have them one block apart. That way, rather than showing up to the stop and worrying about whether you missed the bus that runs every 20 minutes and have to walk to the other bus, you simply show up and the most you'll wait is 10 minutes (Rush hour service is pretty frequent, but off-peak service is infrequent on the B100).

 

As for sending them to Bay Ridge, like I've mentioned before, I think it's a good idea to help make Brooklyn's system more grid-like.

 

As for running them on Avenue R, it's the same logic: Rather than have the routes a block apart, it's better to have them on the same street.

 

We share the same philosophy about a basic grid system, with certain exceptions where there is an obvious need and the idea that it is better to have one frequent route than two infrequent ones a block apart. That's why I proposed moving the B64 from Bath to Cropsey west of 18th Avenue in my Southwest Brooklyn proposal.

 

What people don't realize about the B100 is that the bus stops are further apart than the B2. That was intentional because it was placed one block from the B2. If the MTA does eliminate the B2 without changing the B100, they wouldn't add extra stops, so you will be left with one route with infrequent stops.

[Shortline Bus]

Eh. It's not the worst idea.

 

As of now, there are really 2 routes (the B2 and B100) that run a block apart. I've always said it's better to have 2 buses down one street rather than have them one block apart. That way, rather than showing up to the stop and worrying about whether you missed the bus that runs every 20 minutes and have to walk to the other bus, you simply show up and the most you'll wait is 10 minutes (Rush hour service is pretty frequent, but off-peak service is infrequent on the B100).

 

As for sending them to Bay Ridge, like I've mentioned before, I think it's a good idea to help make Brooklyn's system more grid-like.

 

As for running them on Avenue R, it's the same logic: Rather than have the routes a block apart, it's better to have them on the same street.

 

I agree and that a great idea to run the B2/31/100 all on Ave. R. between Nostrand and the East 16th St station. Only issue is that some riders (mainly students/staff at Madison HS)on Queitin Rd screaming about losing bus service.

[B35 via Church]

Terrible idea... Why would two routes be needed #1 and #2 why would you need 3 friggin' buses running along Ave R?? (B100, B101 and B31)

I'm not defending or agreeing with the idea, but it's basically an attempt to combine the B2 & the B100, while also retaining the current B100 east of flatbush.... A sort of compromise, if you will....

 

Way I see it, there is no point in having 2 branches of a combined route.... either combine the two routes fully or treat them as individual routes.....

 

 

What people don't realize about the B100 is that the bus stops are further apart than the B2.

Of course not...

 

all people see is how close the 2 routes are on a map.... and from that, come to the conclusion that the 2 routes should be combined....

 

 

I agree and that a great idea to run the B2/31/100 all on Ave. R. between Nostrand and the East 16th St station. Only issue is that some riders (mainly students/staff at Madison HS)on Queitin Rd screaming about losing bus service.

Which is why I wouldn't touch service on the 100 east of the subway station.....

Edited April 5, 2012 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Oh I know what it is and I don't agree with it. Also I don't see the need to have three routes on Ave R. when there is barely enough ridership to sustain the current two routes... Furthemore, with Bus Time, there really won't be a need to figure out if you missed your bus or not, so that is not a reason to cramp three lines all on Ave R. and force folks to walk longer distances to get to their buses. It also makes it difficult to decipher what route needs what since you have such an overlap in service.

[checkmatechamp13]

I read an article that says only something like 10% of SI bus riders use BusTime. I doubt it's going to be that much higher in Brooklyn, if at all (not to mention they didn't even implement it yet)

 

As for figuring out if you missed your bus, even if you use BusTime, it's still annoying to have to figure out which street is better to walk to.

 

As for having 3 buses on Avenue R, whether it's Quentin Road or Avenue R, those buses are still serving the same general area. It's not going to make a huge difference if it's one block over.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I read an article that says only something like 10% of SI bus riders use BusTime. I doubt it's going to be that much higher in Brooklyn, if at all (not to mention they didn't even implement it yet)

 

As for figuring out if you missed your bus, even if you use BusTime, it's still annoying to have to figure out which street is better to walk to.

 

As for having 3 buses on Avenue R, whether it's Quentin Road or Avenue R, those buses are still serving the same general area. It's not going to make a huge difference if it's one block over.

 

 

Yeah well just because you say it isn't that big of a deal doesn't mean that it isn't. The M1 is not nearly as popular as it used to be when it ran down Park Avenue for example. You refuse to accept that folks DO CARE about CONVENIENCE.

 

As for this article you're talking about, I believe I've found it and unlike you, who as usual try to downplay Bus Time, the folks in the article make very interesting points which you can't refute. You have to take into consideration how many people know about the service and know how to use it OR if they're willing to spend money for text messages or data charges to use the service.

 

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news-blog/2012/mar/23/mtas-bustime-fast-start/

 

From my personal observations, ridership on Staten Island is up.

 

As for your last comment about which street to walk down, what are you talking about???

[B35 via Church]

Oh I know what it is and I don't agree with it. Also I don't see the need to have three routes on Ave R. when there is barely enough ridership to sustain the current two routes...

Yeah, I don't agree with it either...

 

However, this idea of his has less to do with 3 routes on Av. R, and more to do with the unnecessary branching between buses that'd serve kings plaza & those that wouldn't..... along with the combining of the B2/100 part of the idea.....

 

I mean, I could argue that there's no real need for 2 routes on Av. R.... But it's the quickest path to the subway station for those folks coming from within Marine Park (B2) & Gerritsen Beach (B31), so that's how it's routed....

 

Even if I count his 100/101 idea as one route (which would be 2 routes on Av R, counting the 31), the moving of service off that part of Quentin I don't feel is necessary.... which tends to come with the majority of these B2/100 combination ideas..... The distance b/w east-west streets as you're traveling north-south are often underestimated... Taking a ride up/down Ocean av perfectly illustrates that....

[Acela Express]

I've driven both B2 & 31 routes, and I'll agree with TA's proposal to eliminate the B2 altogether, just for the B100 being literally one block away it's entire length. The B2 carries mostly during rush hour, and you'll have maybe 10-15 people on the bus during non-peak. Yes, it'll cut service from Kings Plaza, but that's where you can literally take the 100 to Flatbush Avenue and transfer to the southbound B9 or B41.

 

Again, it's literally one block.

[NX Express]

Just curious - what changed between 1959 and now? In 1959 (IIRC) buses ran every 2 minutes. Now, people are considering eliminating the route altogether.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm not sure if the B100 existed back then, but that might've been part of the reason (but then again, private lines liked to compete with each other, so it's very likely that it existed, but that's one possible explanation).

 

In any case, according to BrooklynBus, the MTA purposely reduced the service to try to shift people off buses and onto dollar vans. The more service they cut, the more people shifted. Now, even if they brought back that frequent service, it might be too late to save the route because people are so used to their alternatives.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah, I don't agree with it either...

 

However, this idea of his has less to do with 3 routes on Av. R, and more to do with the unnecessary branching between buses that'd serve kings plaza & those that wouldn't..... along with the combining of the B2/100 part of the idea.....

 

I mean, I could argue that there's no real need for 2 routes on Av. R.... But it's the quickest path to the subway station for those folks coming from within Marine Park (B2) & Gerritsen Beach (B31), so that's how it's routed....

 

Even if I count his 100/101 idea as one route (which would be 2 routes on Av R, counting the 31), the moving of service off that part of Quentin I don't feel is necessary.... which tends to come with the majority of these B2/100 combination ideas..... The distance b/w east-west streets as you're traveling north-south are often underestimated... Taking a ride up/down Ocean av perfectly illustrates that....

 

 

You make some very good points and I feel that like you said distances between streets are underestimated, regardless of the direction IMO. I also agree that you don't necessarily need two routes along Ave. R, but like you said it makes sense for routing purposes and gives folks trying to get to the station two options, so it works, but there is no need to move service off of Quentin Rd.

[B35 via Church]

"The distance b/w east-west streets as you're traveling north-south are often underestimated"

 

should have read:

 

The distance b/w east-west streets as you're traveling north-south are often underestimated in that area....

 

^^ I was curtailing the point to the particular discussion..... The main point of contention I'm seeing from those that think the B2 should be eradicated (or combined w/ the 100) is that the distance b/w [quentin & av r] and [av r & fillmore] is only a block away....

 

 

Generally speaking about block spacing underestimation though, yes, it doesn't matter the direction.....

[checkmatechamp13]

Yeah well just because you say it isn't that big of a deal doesn't mean that it isn't. The M1 is not nearly as popular as it used to be when it ran down Park Avenue for example. You refuse to accept that folks DO CARE about CONVENIENCE.

 

As for this article you're talking about, I believe I've found it and unlike you, who as usual try to downplay Bus Time, the folks in the article make very interesting points which you can't refute. You have to take into consideration how many people know about the service and know how to use it OR if they're willing to spend money for text messages or data charges to use the service.

 

http://www.wnyc.org/...ime-fast-start/

 

From my personal observations, ridership on Staten Island is up.

 

As for your last comment about which street to walk down, what are you talking about???

 

 

Yeah, and that's a different story. The M2/3 (and M5 on 5th Avenue) are frequent enough that you could spare a little service to send to Park Avenue. That's not the case in Brooklyn: The B100 doesn't run frequently except during rush hours.

 

As for the article, that was one of them I read. I read another one (you could probably find it on Subchat if you look a little), and it said how they figured it out (they said they got something like 3,800 requests from computers, and another number of requests from cell phones and everything). SI local bus ridership is about 100,000.

 

As far as not knowing about it or not being willing to pay for text messages, that's exactly my point. It doesn't do me any good unless I happen to be sitting by a computer before I leave and if I have some kind of alternative, and I'm sure there are a ton of people in my position. If I'm standing at say, Bloomingdale Road/Arthur Kill Road and need to get to St. George, I'm stuck waiting for the S74 if it doesn't show up, so what's the point in BusTime? A large portion of the people might have only one bus in their area, or it might be the only option to get them somewhere. For instance, if I want to go from Van Pelt Avenue/Richmond Terrace to Snug Harbor, I basically need the S40. I could walk down to the S46, and then walk back up from Castleton Avenue (and keep in mind that I have to walk all the way from Bard Avenue because the streets don't allow for a more direct route). Besides, in all that time, I'd probably be better off waiting for another S40.

 

As for that article, I don't see what points they brought up. I mean, they said 10% of bus riders use it in SI, and 20% use it in Seattle, and then they explained how it works. But even if it reached 20%, you still can't use it to justify why service should be run a certain way.

 

As for my personal observations, ridership is fairly constant, but like I said, most of the routes near me carry a decent load and are fairly frequent for the most part. They're not routes like the S54, where it's easier to tell if the route has low ridership. Back a few weeks ago when I said that, it really wasn't noticeable. Now, maybe it's starting to be noticable, but it's hard to say if it's any sort of trend. Like I said, I've seen S46s show up with 4 people on them (and this was in Port Richmond, not along South Avenue or anything), and I've seen S59s flagging people at times when there are normally only a few standees (I mean, the S59 gets decent ridership, but it only risks flagging people in the AM rush going southbound from what I've seen). Now, on routes like the S54, it's pretty easy to tell if something is changing. I believe you when you said the S54s never got to the point of flagging people, and the extra people attracted by BusTime caused that situation (I'm not saying that like I'm blaming them or anything, but use whatever word you want instead). Even if there was some sort of delay, I doubt it would've been that crowded with the non-BusTime riders.

 

In any case, as far as knowing what street to walk down, the point is that the fact that you have to check before you walk down the street is an inconvenience, but it's a trivial point. The main point is that a lot of people aren't going to use BusTime, so they won't benefit from being able to pick which street is better.

[Threxx]

I have compiled a "How to Better Serve Brooklyn" doc, and here is the S. Brooklyn portion.

 

It's long, so bear with me.

 

 

B1: A new THROUGH 86 ST route, 86/Shore Road-Current Manhattan Beach Terminus, with service to (B)/(Q) station.

B2: Current Route Eliminated, see B100 & B101.

B3: Extended to Caesars’s Bay Mall

B4: Full service to Sheepshead Bay restored.

B5: New Avenue P/65 St route, Kings Plz- Bay Ridge.

B7: Eliminated. B47, B82, & new B19 replace most of old route.

B8: Full time service to 95th Street restored, with less VA Hosp. short turns.

B10/B16: Crown Heights-Bay Ridge (via Empire Bl). B10 via 13 & 14 Avs, B16 via Ft Hamilton Prkway.

B19 A/B: Williamsburg-Boro Park or IKEA Terminal via Clarkson and Saratoga Avenue.

B31: Extended along B82 route to Coney Island, via Caesar’s Bay Mall,

B36: Current route. (Nothing wrong with that.)

B39: Restored, weekdays only.

B50: Possible renumbering for B82.

B64: Between 86th St/Shore Road & Coney Island, via Bath Ave, Cropsey Avenue, and Stillwell Avenue.

B70: Current routing.

B82: Truncated to Quentin Road & CI Aveune.

B86: Possible renumbering for B1.

B100: Service increased and split between Avenue R & Fillmore Avenue b/w Kings Hwy & Flatbush Avenue.

B101: Split with B100.

[Acela Express]

The B39 was a NW route, and it can remain eliminated.

The J train at Marcy Avenue into LES does the job just fine.

[Shortline Bus]

The B39 was a NW route, and it can remain eliminated.

The J train at Marcy Avenue into LES does the job just fine.

 

 

Try telling that to the ADA community Acela. Essex is not wheelchair accesible and it's a pain for Northern Brooklyn riders to get to the Lower East Side. Acela the B39 should have remained a weekday only route,

 

 

Guys please lets keep it(the chat) to Southern Brooklyn bus route proposals and comments. Feel free to create another thread for B39 and other Nothern Brooklyn routes. Thanks

[Threxx]

The B39 was a NW route, and it can remain eliminated.

The J train at Marcy Avenue into LES does the job just fine.

 

 

Sorry, I meant B37...

 

And I can't edit it now...

Edited April 10, 2012 by ThrexxBus