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Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas


B36 Via Ave U

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3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Check.... Mate.

That is the exact problem I have with that suggestion & what it's implying.... I don't care for centering a point around (demand in one direction vs. the other), in comparison to (how the runs are structured).... On top of it, the failure to consider why S93's are crushloaded during the times that they are.... Nah, let's just have the thing housed in Brooklyn & throw artics on some trips with the wildly inconsistent service it has facepalm.gif

As long as the S93 is under the umbrella of the S53, it's never going to have anywhere near the amt. of service that the S53 has.... That's the conclusion I've come to....

What would you say is contributing to the influx of usage on the S93 as of late?

Aside from the obvious growth in ridership at the Bay Ridge stops and CSI stops, I'd say a lot of growth is happening at the stops in Concord, as well as Manor Road (on top of the shopping around there, you also have the Todt Hill Houses a few blocks away, and the connection to the S54 to Wagner High School). Then you got the spillover of S79 growth over by the bridge (that's in order, BTW, so IMO Concord growth is greater than Manor Road growth which is greater than Arrochar growth)

Ridership in Sunnyside & Willowbrook is still holding its own, but growth isn't as obvious as it is in the areas I mentioned. (Since it's local west of Jewett, Willowbrook ridership has always been a couple of stragglers here and there at each stop, so it's kind of hard to see any patterns. Ridership at the two stops in Sunnyside has always been moderate. I'll put Jewett into that same category as well).

But yeah, it definitely helps a lot with cross-island travel, since continues heading in the general east-west direction once it passes Clove (as opposed to heading up towards the ferry). If the S93 weren't around (or if the sole service pattern was a nonstop CSI-Brooklyn shuttle like some people want it to be), you'd probably be seeing a lot more people resorting to taking the X10 for intra-island trips. 

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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8 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

...As for what is contributing to increased S93 ridership, to the point where I would argue that Saturday service is warranted...less parking on campus because of carpark and road reconstruction by the state Dormitory Authority continuing through at least the end of November. Also on Saturdays, there are a significant number of people transferring at Clove and Victory.

This literally makes zero sense, sir....

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Aside from the obvious growth in ridership at the Bay Ridge stops and CSI stops, I'd say a lot of growth is happening at the stops in Concord, as well as Manor Road (on top of the shopping around there, you also have the Todt Hill Houses a few blocks away, and the connection to the S54 to Wagner High School). Then you got the spillover of S79 growth over by the bridge (that's in order, BTW, so IMO Concord growth is greater than Manor Road growth which is greater than Arrochar growth)

Ridership in Sunnyside & Willowbrook is still holding its own, but growth isn't as obvious as it is in the areas I mentioned. (Since it's local west of Jewett, Willowbrook ridership has always been a couple of stragglers here and there at each stop, so it's kind of hard to see any patterns. Ridership at the two stops in Sunnyside has always been moderate. I'll put Jewett into that same category as well).

But yeah, it definitely helps a lot with cross-island travel, since continues heading in the general east-west direction once it passes Clove (as opposed to heading up towards the ferry). If the S93 weren't around (or if the sole service pattern was a nonstop CSI-Brooklyn shuttle like some people want it to be), you'd probably be seeing a lot more people resorting to taking the X10 for intra-island trips. 

So if you were to give a percentage, how much of its growth would be attributed to intra-island usage & how much of it would be attributed to inter-borough usage? I guess what I'm trying to gauge is, how much intra-island usage has grown over the years.... The fact that there's even a phenomenon of riders even taking express buses for intra-borough travel is unacceptable....

8 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

They really need to stop with the S53/93 paring nonsense... (same thing to some extent with the S59 and S89). This is not like the S40/90 or any of the St George limiteds where its strictly a rush hour express variant... IMO the S53 and S93 have almost nothing in common with each other... 

The S93 should be a 7 days a week stand alone route with the S53 being paired with an S83 limited to Port Richmond bypassing Arrochar.

I don't have a problem with the S59/S89 coupling (they couldn't really successfully sell/brand the running of S59's to Bayonne), but the S53/S93 coupling bothers me to no end.... The S93 isn't a LTD S53 at all; it's not much more than a cheap (I'd even argue desperate) way of providing a "gateway" to CSI from the other outerboroughs.... What the MTA has learned (and IMO, doesn't want to fully come to grips to it), is that the route has went on to filling other voids in the SI bus network completely separate from anything related to getting to/from CSI....

Basically, stubbornness.... It's going to take about as long (if not longer) for the MTA to give the S93 7-day a week service, as it did for them to send a second route to (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall..... Any other competent & in-touch transit agency would have separately branded a Brooklyn-CSI service.....

Truly amazing....

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15 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

This literally makes zero sense, sir....

So if you were to give a percentage, how much of its growth would be attributed to intra-island usage & how much of it would be attributed to inter-borough usage? I guess what I'm trying to gauge is, how much intra-island usage has grown over the years.... The fact that there's even a phenomenon of riders even taking express buses for intra-borough travel is unacceptable....

I don't have a problem with the S59/S89 coupling (they couldn't really successfully sell/brand the running of S59's to Bayonne), but the S53/S93 coupling bothers me to no end.... The S93 isn't a LTD S53 at all; it's not much more than a cheap (I'd even argue desperate) way of providing a "gateway" to CSI from the other outerboroughs.... What the MTA has learned (and IMO, doesn't want to fully come to grips to it), is that the route has went on to filling other voids in the SI bus network completely separate from anything related to getting to/from CSI....

Basically, stubbornness.... It's going to take about as long (if not longer) for the MTA to give the S93 7-day a week service, as it did for them to send a second route to (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall..... Any other competent & in-touch transit agency would have separately branded a Brooklyn-CSI service.....

Truly amazing....

I'd say something along the lines of 65/35 Brooklyn-bound vs. intra-SI. But at the same time, I'll give credit for some of that Brooklyn-bound growth to the 800 lb gorilla in the room, which is the SI Ferry. A lot of people are taking the S93 as an alternative to the old bus-ferry-subway commute (if you think about it, it's really just bus-subway, with an option to transfer to an express train if you want a quicker trip to Midtown).

To go a little more in detail, I'll put it to you this way: The main groups who would be taking the S93 intra-borough would be the Susan Wagner schoolkids (the local residents generally continue into Brooklyn), Concord residents (some of who live a little further up and take the S74/76 to/from Park Hill & Stapleton to reach it), and Arrochar residents trying to get to/from Victory. And of course, since it's the College of Staten Island (not the College of Bay Ridge Annex ;) ) you do have a lot of CSI kids taking it intraborough (both those living along the route, and connecting to other buses). 

But at the same time, there's a lot of growth to go around. Obviously, the MTA's ridership numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, but ridership in 2016 is around double the ridership of 2013 (the last full year of rush hour-only service. Midday/evening service started in September 2014).

A little background on the S93: The CSI campus used to be located by Milford & Renwick (present-day Petrides. If you look on BusTime, you'll see one S66 AM trip from Victory & Clove that diverts to serve it en-route to St. George and a few PM S53 & S78 trips that start there and run to Port Richmond & Tottenville respectively). Anyway, there were a few trippers on the R-7 (present-day S53) that ran there. Eventually, when the campus moved to Willowbrook, they labeled those trips S93, but they only ran 3 each way (headways were once an hour in the AM, and every 2 hours in the PM).

In any case, with a route that now has weekday ridership in the same range as the full-time S51 & S52, they need to let go of that tripper/supplement mentality regarding the S93. At least they give them separate schedules now (until around 2007, they still had schedules labeled S53/93. With the S89, I remember they started it with its own schedule)

But yeah, as far as that X10 intra-island usage goes, some of it is definitely related to a lack of service on the S93 (I've seen and partaken in a lot of intra-island usage on the weekends when the S93 doesn't run, and it used to happen more often before the S93 got off-peak service), but some of it is related to a lack of limited-stop service on the S53 (which is preaching to the choir), since the X10 goes up to the far North Shore and connects with the S4X routes, which obviously the S93 doesn't do for those boarding/disembarking at Hylan or Fingerboard. 

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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2 hours ago, Kingjunior34 said:

You know the bus stops by Nazareth Regional High School in and Meyer levin middle school Brooklyn where it says school hours only B17,B47,B7

Do those still run ? Because I’ve never seen buses go there 

I don't think so.... The Nazareth ones they been got rid of, but I'm not sure about the Meyer Levin ones....

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54 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I believe those are gone too. Haven't seen a school special over there in the while. Also the same with South Shore High School + Canarsie High School. 

I didn't know Canarsie HS had them to begin with.... The South Shore trippers having gotten discontinued makes sense; since that school got shut down (co-incidentally) around the same time those infamous MTA draconian cuts took place (June 2010)..... There's like 4 or 5 smaller schools operating out of that facility now....

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17 minutes ago, darrianQ60 said:

I was thinking  the b84 extending to crown heights via livonia ave left on rutland rd.     Right on rockaway parkway merge onto buffalo  ave and left on eastern parkaway then u turn like the b14 does 

How are you still in the red, when Vtrain somehow went from like negative 36 to nothing without one person repping him since the new forum upgrade?

I'll help you out.... You one of the most briefest dudes on here (lol) & although you come up with some wild shit with your ideas, you still cool people.... You're not obnoxious with it....

As for the actual post here, well I had an idea some time ago (I ran by, I believe Checkmatechamp) that had the B84 running to Brookdale via portions of the B14 & down M. Gaston blvd to New Lots av, etc.... I also had a later idea I ran by BM5 Woodhaven (the member on here) that had the B84 becoming a spur of the B14 from Utica av.... Something should be done to try to make it more useful, and I generally agree with having it head west instead of north as part of any type of improvement to the route....

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I think that if the B84 was to have an extension northward, (no matter how duplicative and unoriginal it is) I would see it go to Broadway Junction via Pennsylvania Ave and Livonia Av. If anything, the B83/84 would have interlined runs since by then they would have almost the same terminals. Plus a tiny bit more coverage in ENY. 

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7 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I think that if the B84 was to have an extension northward, (no matter how duplicative and unoriginal it is) I would see it go to Broadway Junction via Pennsylvania Ave and Livonia Av. If anything, the B83/84 would have interlined runs since by then they would have almost the same terminals. Plus a tiny bit more coverage in ENY. 

That is not a bad idea. However, you already have the B20 providing most of the East New York coverage. Haven't seen too many Forest Avenue bound buses, but more Broadway-East New York bound buses. (I still don't know why it's called Broadway Junction) since that area is completely industrial. (That's for another post). 

 

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8 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I think that if the B84 was to have an extension northward, (no matter how duplicative and unoriginal it is) I would see it go to Broadway Junction via Pennsylvania Ave and Livonia Av. If anything, the B83/84 would have interlined runs since by then they would have almost the same terminals. Plus a tiny bit more coverage in ENY. 

I'd rather take the B83 off Van Siclen & have it be "the" Pennsylvania av. route..... The riderbase already exists..... I get the sense that riders generally speaking want the B83 over the B20, and I can't really say I blame them....

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

That is not a bad idea. However, you already have the B20 providing most of the East New York coverage. Haven't seen too many Forest Avenue bound buses, but more Broadway-East New York bound buses.....

That's one of the problems I'd have turning 84's along Penn.... If it were just the B83/84, it wouldn't be as bad (since there's only but what, 2 or 3 buses at most running at once at any given time) - but when you add the B20 into the mix, nah..... I also wouldn't run anything along Livonia... Mad dead over there... Plus it cuts off anyway over by Junius due to the (L) ROW.....

As for more short turns appearing on the 20, I've noticed the same thing & have mentioned it in posts before.... it's been something that's been going on for quite some time.... I remember one time in particular while waiting for the 12 (by the terminal) a little over a month ago, I saw 4 B20 shorties arrive at that stop across the street (from the B12/25) within a 10 minute span.... Not one Forest av bus in that span.... Sometimes I would wait at that stop in question & take the B20 to Myrtle av (after getting off the Long Island Fail Road) to go grab a couple pan pizza's from pizza hut....

Now what I do after work if I'm in a mood for pizza hut, is simply stay on Hillside 'til I hit Springfield.... There's another one that's closer @ LNP/Hillside, but I don't trust that one; there's seldom anyone parked in that lot & I don't see much of anyone goin in & out of there... At one point, I thought it was closed down.... But none of this is neither here nor there....

Edited by B35 via Church
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21 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd rather take the B83 off Van Siclen & have it be "the" Pennsylvania av. route..... The riderbase already exists..... I get the sense that riders generally speaking want the B83 over the B20, and I can't really say I blame them....

That's one of the problems I'd have turning 84's along Penn.... If it were just the B83/84, it wouldn't be as bad (since there's only but what, 2 or 3 buses at most running at once at any given time) - but when you add the B20 into the mix, nah..... I also wouldn't run anything along Livonia... Mad dead over there... Plus it cuts off anyway over by Junius due to the (L) ROW.....

As for more short turns appearing on the 20, I've noticed the same thing & have mentioned it in posts before.... it's been something that's been going on for quite some time.... I remember one time in particular while waiting for the 12 (by the terminal) a little over a month ago, I saw 4 B20 shorties arrive at that stop across the street (from the B12/25) within a 10 minute span.... Not one Forest av bus in that span.... 

Question:  Is East New York splitting the B20 with Fresh Pond or that's fully back with Fresh Pond? 

Next: There are some viable solutions to this B84 problem. However, whether is running it via New Lots with the B15 over to Eastern Parkway or to Broadway-East New York/Alabama Avenue (B83) or even I've suggested it- Canarsie. However, there's no Canarsie market for that line. If I were a bettor in this case. Have this B84 provide coverage with the B15 via New Lots turn on Church, right on Rockaway Parkway to Eastern Parkway & Utica as some folks have suggested. I think there's a decent market between Crown Heights and East New York via Rockaway Parkway and New Lots Avenue. 

Edited by Future ENY OP
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8 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Question:  Is East New York splitting the B20 with Fresh Pond or that's fully back with Fresh Pond? 

Next: There are some viable solutions to this B84 problem. However, whether is running it via New Lots with the B15 over to Eastern Parkway or to Broadway-East New York/Alabama Avenue or even I've suggested it- Canarsie. However, there's no Canarsie market for that line. If I were a bettor in this case. Have this B84 provide coverage with the B15 via New Lots turn on Church, right on Rockaway Parkway to Eastern Parkway & Utica as some folks have suggested. I think there's a decent market between Crown Heights and East New York via Rockaway Parkway and New Lots Avenue. 

B20's straight out of FP now.

With the B84 though, yeah, I think the best thing for that route it to head westward if there's to be any real hope for the route.... There is definitely growing demand to Gateway (with which the B83 has helped with, but it's still a north-south line).... I think there should be an easterly-westerly line that runs to Gateway from within Brooklyn as well (which is one reason why I came up with having the B84 become a branch of the B14.... another reason was, the B14 could use another 1 or 2 BPH during the day).... The question then becomes, what streets would it take & where would it end...

The Pennsylvania av dilemma is more one of consolidation of service.....

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22 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

B20's straight out of FP now.

With the B84 though, yeah, I think the best thing for that route it to head westward if there's to be any real hope for the route.... There is definitely growing demand to Gateway (with which the B83 has helped with, but it's still a north-south line).... I think there should be an easterly-westerly line that runs to Gateway from within Brooklyn as well (which is one reason why I came up with having the B84 become a branch of the B14.... another reason was, the B14 could use another 1 or 2 BPH during the day).... The question then becomes, what streets would it take & where would it end...

The Pennsylvania av dilemma is more one of consolidation of service.....

I do agree with this, but what streets would be suggested to get along with the B14. Only thing I could think on top of my head is traveling down New Lots to Penn. Right on Penn, left on Sutter. Than via Sutter to M. Gaston to Pitkin. 

But also the backend of Rockaway Parkway- Canarsie/East Flatbush section can use some of that B84 service. I'd use that via the B15 over to the parkway. To me that would be the most direct just only b/c there's additional coverage on New Lots Avenue. So far from most of the posts I'm seeing with the B84 it's clear that Eastern Parkway-Utica seems to be the draw. Now, it's only about using the B14 or B15 as the additional coverage area. 

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19 hours ago, darrianQ60 said:

I think thats not a bad idea but if the  b14 goes down penn ave what about the other portion of the b14 that runs on sutter ave to drew st 

He's saying give the B14 some help west of Penn (by restructuring the B84), not to just reroute the B14.

In any case, I forget which thread people were having the B15 discussion in, but in any case, I would personally do it as follows (this is basically a variation of B35's plan)

B20: Broadway Junction-JFK Airport via Penn-New Lots-Ashford-Linden, with a stop at Cross Bay Blvd to connect to the buses there (the B15 would continue to bypass Cross Bay)

B83: Broadway Junction-Gateway II via Penn (instead of diverting to Van Siclen)

B84: Broadway Junction-Seaview/Erskine via Penn-New Lots-Van Siclen-Wortman-Elton-Vandalia-Fountain-Seaview (and return via Erskine)

B20 portion in Ridgewood replaced by an extended B7 to Myrtle Avenue (on the southern end, I still agree with having it cover the B17 Paerdegat branch). 

 

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4 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

He's saying give the B14 some help west of Penn (by restructuring the B84), not to just reroute the B14.

In any case, I forget which thread people were having the B15 discussion in, but in any case, I would personally do it as follows (this is basically a variation of B35's plan)

B20: Broadway Junction-JFK Airport via Penn-New Lots-Ashford-Linden, with a stop at Cross Bay Blvd to connect to the buses there (the B15 would continue to bypass Cross Bay)

B83: Broadway Junction-Gateway II via Penn (instead of diverting to Van Siclen)

B84: Broadway Junction-Seaview/Erskine via Penn-New Lots-Van Siclen-Wortman-Elton-Vandalia-Fountain-Seaview (and return via Erskine)

B20 portion in Ridgewood replaced by an extended B7 to Myrtle Avenue (on the southern end, I still agree with having it cover the B17 Paerdegat branch). 

 

I don't know how I feel with the B20 going to the airport. However, the B15 does need a back up. Also you are taking away bus service on Wortman Avenue. Those folks in Linden Houses need that bus service. I wouldn't be too quick to replace that with the B83. If anything, keep the original B20 to Wortman, left on Ashford than Linden to airport with the cross bay stop (I agree with that portion) 

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;)wow i was proposing some ideas but not sure if it would work  but i was thinking they should make the b16 run the whole route on fort Hamilton parkway and create a new route on 13 ave and 14 ave the b34 

The b34 would run from kensington where it would share terminals with b69 and b67 and terminate at  bensonhurst since they buliding a target and other little things at ceasers bay shopping center.                 

   Southbound b34.            

Up mcdonald ave.     

Left on chruch ave.    

Right on 36 st.           

Left on 13 ave.        

Left on 86 st.         

Right on 14 ave. 

Left on cropsey ave.        

Right on bay parkway  terminate on otherside of bay parkway by the wendys.

Northbound b34    

Up bay parkway 

Left on cropsey ave 

Right on 14 ave 

Left on 86 st

Right on 13 ave 

Right on 60st 

Left on 14 ave merge onto chruch ave

Right on mcdonald ave to cortelyou rd.      

And i also thought b3 should extend to ceaser bay shopping center by continuing on

25 ave to cropsey ave.

And left on bay parkway terminate by wendys

Northbound b3 

Up Bay parkway 

Right on cropsey 

Left on 25 ave and continue regular route

I know there is no demands for this but just a idea i was thinking it could fail or maybe be decent to just get by 

       

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On 11/1/2017 at 10:48 PM, darrianQ60 said:

Can anybody tell me why the b16 doesnt run on fort Hamilton parkway to caton ave instead of turning off at 56 st and 14 ave.

Network coverage. However, it does end up missing Maimonides Hospital, which to me is a major miss. The problem is that you need to serve the business district on 13 Avenue as well, and there isn't any other possibility other than branching the B16 into a B16M (serving Maimonides and then 13/14) and a B16 regular.

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On 10/31/2017 at 1:01 PM, Future ENY OP said:

I don't know how I feel with the B20 going to the airport. However, the B15 does need a back up. Also you are taking away bus service on Wortman Avenue. Those folks in Linden Houses need that bus service. I wouldn't be too quick to replace that with the B83. If anything, keep the original B20 to Wortman, left on Ashford than Linden to airport with the cross bay stop (I agree with that portion) 

FTR, my plan entails:

* ...running the B20 b/w Myrtle av & Lefferts AIRTrain via Penn-New Lots-(Ashford/Cleveland)-Linden.... I wouldn't run it to any of the terminals though (don't know if Checkmate would or wouldn't), nor would I have it stopping off on Cross Bay.... I've always hated that *stopping off on Cross Bay* idea; there's been several of them over the years... No Brooklyn route running to JFK should be doing that.... Any connection b/w ENY & Cross Bay <--> Woodhaven, I'd fulfill with an eastward extension of the B14.... Leave the airport routes (B15 & B20 in my scenario) running unimpeded b/w Brooklyn & JFK property.....

* ....running the B83 b/w Gateway & B'way Junction. via Penn, with part time service going via Vandalia-Van Siclen-Wortman-Penn..... I wouldn't completely eliminate service on Wortman either (for that reason you stated)..... What I don't see though, is the difference (or benefit) b/w the B20 serving Wortman up to the (3) & B'way Junction, and the B83 doing the exact same thing.....

Edited by B35 via Church
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On 10/31/2017 at 1:01 PM, Future ENY OP said:

I don't know how I feel with the B20 going to the airport. However, the B15 does need a back up. Also you are taking away bus service on Wortman Avenue. Those folks in Linden Houses need that bus service. I wouldn't be too quick to replace that with the B83. If anything, keep the original B20 to Wortman, left on Ashford than Linden to airport with the cross bay stop (I agree with that portion) 

The thing is that by doing that, it doesn't help the B15 out as much, since it's a longer route to connect to the (3) train heading westbound (and eastbound, it wouldn't serve the New Lots Avenue station, so riders in the Pink/Cypress Hills Houses would continue to pile onto the B15, which is more direct than the B20 from Pennsylvania Avenue)

Also, it's only one single stop that would actually be eliminated (Wortman & Vermont). Riders would be able to walk from either Pennsylvania & Wortman, Van Siclen & Wortman, or Cozine & Vermont for alternate bus service. My plan would have the B84 covering Wortman (and that portion of the Blvd Houses) east of Van Siclen. 

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