Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Brillant93]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The bus network across the boroughs needs to be re-structured to address antiquity.... You on the other hand, seem to believe that the lack of a grid network is what's crippling our bus routes & it couldn't be any further from the truth..... Straighter routes city-wide is only going to make buses that much more useless; it's enough that riders have to make as many xfers within the subway system before and/or after having came off some bus as it is & it's not going to be tolerated by having them induced & introduced into the bus network....

Nobody's exactly advocating for a bunch of B13's, Bx10's, and Q39's in the network as they are, but seriously, tell B103, Bx36, S79, M9, and Q58 riders that a bunch of straight routes is missing in our system.....

Your rhetoric is flawed.

 

I don’t know where this attack is coming from but what I was saying was my own opinion and such. My rhetoric isn’t flawed and it’s acutally what some cities have done to help their bus systems. Shorter and or straighter routes do help, especially for those who need it to go to the train station. Look at routes such as the B100 and so on, it’s faster to get to midwood than the b82 or b6 because it’s short and it’s somewhat straight through.  I’m not saying just cut out routes like the b103 or longer routes I’m just saying it would help more so to have routes that are more grid like to help people get to where they need to be. Turning and so on just makes the trips much more longer. 

 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

I don’t know where this attack is coming from but what I was saying was my own opinion and such. My rhetoric isn’t flawed and it’s acutally what some cities have done to help their bus systems. Shorter and or straighter routes do help, especially for those who need it to go to the train station. Look at routes such as the B100 and so on, it’s faster to get to midwood than the b82 or b6 because it’s short and it’s somewhat straight through.  I’m not saying just cut out routes like the b103 or longer routes I’m just saying it would help more so to have routes that are more grid like to help people get to where they need to be. Turning and so on just makes the trips much more longer.

You can't say anything to anyone nowadays for it not to be considered an attack....

You say this your opinion... Cool.... Well this is my opinion of your opinion

As for this reply here, well which is it - We're missing bus routes that are "literally straight through" in our bus system, or that you're not just saying cut out the longer routes like the B103? Can't advocate for both.... Judging by your comments thus far, I'd have to say that you are advocating for a grid system without literally saying it.... The turning of bus routes isn't this problem you're making it out to be.... That's my issue with this rhetoric of yours on display here... How's the grid system doing for the timeliness with Manhattan's bus routes exactly? I'll wait.....

To point out that routes in this city are too long, is one thing... To point out that buses in this city making 'x' number of turns is such this issue, however, is a load of crap to me.... A system with a bunch of shorter, straighter routes to the subway or whatever, in a city of this magnitude, would only limit the usefulness of the things... Yes, there are masses taking buses to the subway, but there are also masses that are NOT using buses to get to a subway.... If it's anything I'm "attacking", it's this simplistic mindset of *the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line* bit you're exuding thus far..... This "B30" you conjured up for instance, is redundant... The MTA & the hole it continues to (purposely, IMO) dig itself deeper into, in regards to bus service - man, getting too concerned straightening a bunch of bus routes isn't going to help.....

Also, redundant bus routes, with the sheer lack of service on quite a bit of bus routes as it is in this city, is the last thing anyone should be advocating for...

[Brillant93]

14 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

You can't say anything to anyone nowadays for it not to be considered an attack....

You say this your opinion... Cool.... Well this is my opinion of your opinion

As for this reply here, well which is it - We're missing bus routes that are "literally straight through" in our bus system, or that you're not just saying cut out the longer routes like the B103? Can't advocate for both.... Judging by your comments thus far, I'd have to say that you are advocating for a grid system without literally saying it.... The turning of bus routes isn't this problem you're making it out to be.... That's my issue with this rhetoric of yours on display here... How's the grid system doing for the timeliness with Manhattan's bus routes exactly? I'll wait.....

To point out that routes in this city are too long, is one thing... To point out that buses in this city making 'x' number of turns is such this issue, however, is a load of crap to me.... A system with a bunch of shorter, straighter routes to the subway or whatever, in a city of this magnitude, would only limit the usefulness of the things... Yes, there are masses taking buses to the subway, but there are also masses that are NOT using buses to get to a subway.... If it's anything I'm "attacking", it's this simplistic mindset of *the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line* bit you're exuding thus far..... This "B30" you conjured up for instance, is redundant... The MTA & the hole it continues to (purposely, IMO) dig itself deeper into, in regards to bus service - man, getting too concerned straightening a bunch of bus routes isn't going to help.....

Also, redundant bus routes, with the sheer lack of service on quite a bit of bus routes as it is in this city, is the last thing anyone should be advocating for...

Yes i'm advocating a grid system. But that is because its only logical because the main issue with our bus systems today is that they are taking too much time to get where they need to go. We have an issue with our transportation system and I am at least just thinking about ways it we can help improve it.

How is a grid system going to work for a timeless route? Well for one even though there is congestion its not like Manhattan. A short straight bus route in the outer boroughs can be much faster than a longer route. It can help elevate morning crowds and help them get to where they are going instead of taking a longer bus route that makes many transfers to subway lines. Shorter routes won't make buses useless and I don't even know where you are getting that from. 

If you have any "better" ideas I would like to hear because so far you're just criticizing mine. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

^^^Well, that's kinda the point of this thread, lol.

The grid system (half) works in Manhattan due to the proximity of locations from a bus route. That, and most locations people go to are along the major streets. It is very easy to hit multiple destinations. However, you still have routes like the M8 and M50, which shouldn't be "true" crosstown routes. 

How would a grid system even work on places like Staten Island? With a grid system, a good majority of those north-south routes would lack in ridership, partially because they wouldn't serve ridership generators. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

Yes i'm advocating a grid system. But that is because its only logical because the main issue with our bus systems today is that they are taking too much time to get where they need to go. We have an issue with our transportation system and I am at least just thinking about ways it we can help improve it.

How is a grid system going to work for a timeless route? Well for one even though there is congestion its not like Manhattan. A short straight bus route in the outer boroughs can be much faster than a longer route. It can help elevate morning crowds and help them get to where they are going instead of taking a longer bus route that makes many transfers to subway lines. Shorter routes won't make buses useless and I don't even know where you are getting that from. 

If you have any "better" ideas I would like to hear because so far you're just criticizing mine. 

You shouldn't have had to been pressed into finally professing your advocacy of a grid system, system-wide.....

There you go... You said the magic word... Congestion... It's not the number of damn turns the buses are making that's the problem, system-wide.....

A bus system consisting of shorter, straight routes that does nothing more than to transport people to subways would have those routes looming less useful than a lot of our routes today... Don't sit up there & try to convey otherwise, when you just got through telling me that "I’m not saying just cut out routes like the b103 or longer routes".... This rhetoric of yours being addressed is within the realm of the entire system; it's all about what you yourself said about "what we're missing in our bus system."

Regarding this issue you're bringing up with the B6 between the 2/5 & the L, yeah I have a better idea.... Already stated it, post #4598 in this thread (the reply to CheckmateChamp below my reply to you in that same post)... I'll even link it for you.... I'll also clarify it a bit here - If not for more short turns b/w Coney Island av & Canarsie along the current route as the MTA has done, then have more B6's short turn b/w Flatbush & Canarsie along the current route....

A supplement of sorts of the B6 between the & the is not going to solve much of anything, nor is it needed with the service levels provided on the B6 in & of itself - regardless of you feeling some type of way about being criticized right now.... What the hell do you think takes place on a discussion forum?

39 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

^^^Well, that's kinda the point of this thread, lol.

The grid system (half) works in Manhattan due to the proximity of locations from a bus route. That, and most locations people go to are on the major streets. But then you still have routes like the M8 and M50, which shouldn't be "true" crosstown routes. 

How would a grid system even work on places like Staten Island? With a grid system, a good majority of those north-south routes would lack in ridership.

Lol...

The street grid is just as broken here in Brooklyn & in Queens as well.... He's not the first person to put the almighty grid system on a pedestal & he won't be the last.... There is no one type of system that's going to work in NYC & I don't see how that can effectively be argued.... Our network is multifaceted (it has to be) & the MTA is running it into the ground ever so slowly... But to read that straighter routes, system-wide, is going to be this sort of cure all, to me, is a joke..... Grid systems tend to promote a] straighter, yes... but also b] LONGER routes anyway (again, I refer to Manhattan & its north-south routes), instead of shorter ones....

You've been around the block.... Do I even have to bring up old proposals like the B14 to Grand Army plaza, the B48/B49 combination, the B54/Q55 combination, and one of my personal favorites (to laugh at), the Q7 to Green Acres.....

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Brillant93]

44 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

^^^Well, that's kinda the point of this thread, lol.

The grid system (half) works in Manhattan due to the proximity of locations from a bus route. That, and most locations people go to are along the major streets. It is very easy to hit multiple destinations. However, you still have routes like the M8 and M50, which shouldn't be "true" crosstown routes. 

How would a grid system even work on places like Staten Island? With a grid system, a good majority of those north-south routes would lack in ridership, partially because they wouldn't serve ridership generators. 

 

 

Okay I see what you’re saying. Maybe a grid system won’t work in certain places but I don’t believe It won't work in places like Brooklyn. Manhattan I know has severe congestion and also events that prevent a lot of crosstown buses from being on time or having a purpose. But to generate ridership I think a grid system that serves transfers to subways or just a short route that takes people from a neighborhood that isn’t served by a subway would generate that. 

[B35 via Church]

15 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Okay I see what you’re saying. Maybe a grid system won’t work in certain places but I don’t believe It won't work in places like Brooklyn. Manhattan I know has severe congestion and also events that prevent a lot of crosstown buses from being on time or having a purpose. But to generate ridership I think a grid system that serves transfers to subways or just a short route that takes people from a neighborhood that isn’t served by a subway would generate that. 

...which doesn't exist in a grid system.

That's a feeder route... You're making this too easy.

[Brillant93]

43 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

You shouldn't have had to been pressed into finally professing your advocacy of a grid system, system-wide.....

There you go... You said the magic word... Congestion... It's not the number of damn turns the buses are making that's the problem, system-wide.....

A bus system consisting of shorter, straight routes that does nothing more than to transport people to subways would have those routes looming less useful than a lot of our routes today... Don't sit up there & try to convey otherwise, when you just got through telling me that "I’m not saying just cut out routes like the b103 or longer routes".... This rhetoric of yours being addressed is within the realm of the entire system; it's all about what you yourself said about "what we're missing in our bus system."

Regarding this issue you're bringing up with the B6 between the 2/5 & the L, yeah I have a better idea.... Already stated it, post #4598 in this thread (the reply to CheckmateChamp below my reply to you in that same post)... I'll even link it for you.... I'll also clarify it a bit here - If not for more short turns b/w Coney Island av & Canarsie along the current route as the MTA has done, then have more B6's short turn b/w Flatbush & Canarsie along the current route....

A supplement of sorts of the B6 between the & the is not going to solve much of anything, nor is it needed with the service levels provided on the B6 in & of itself - regardless of you feeling some type of way about being criticized right now.... What the hell do you think takes place on a discussion forum?

Lol...

The street grid is just as broken here in Brooklyn & in Queens as well.... He's not the first person to put the almighty grid system on a pedestal & he won't be the last.... There is no one type of system that's going to work in NYC & I don't see how that can effectively be argued.... Our network is multifaceted (it has to be) & the MTA is running it into the ground ever so slowly... But to read that straighter routes, system-wide, is going to be this sort of cure all, to me, is a joke..... Grid systems tend to promote a] straighter, yes... but also b] LONGER routes anyway (again, I refer to Manhattan & its north-south routes), instead of shorter ones....

You've been around the block.... Do I even have to bring up old proposals like the B14 to Grand Army plaza, the B48/B49 combination, the B54/Q55 combination, and one of my personal favorites (to laugh at), the Q7 to Green Acres.....

 

Short turning might work a little bit but it still doesn’t solve a lot of other issues. Like bus bunching, over crowding and so on. Congestion along with turns create a longer time to get a bus to a certain destination. Think about it this way. If the rockaway parkway area is congested and buses have to turn it would take them a while to get back onto flatlands. Routes already do short turn trips but still service is crap. I take these routes everyday and its  horrible. That’s why routes like the B100 (for me) work. I can get to midwood faster and guarrented to get on a bus and not wait for two or three of them that are crowded, late, or short turned. 

Of course there are routes that serves purpose other than just to subway stations but most people who live in areas not close to a train station rely on buses to get them there Monday through Friday. 

That’s why I proposed a bus route called the B30 along Farragut Rd because it’s straight through and it’s chances of being caught in congestion would be lower than the B6. It would avoid the traffic on rockaway parkway to get onto flatlands by going along Farragut Rd. 

Short turning is something that is done but still it’s not making the customer experience any better. You mayfeel the MTA is digging itself into a hole but I think they’re doing things they should have done a long, long time ago. You have to please customers and just by doing the things we’ve been doing for a long time isn’t going to cut it. 

 

[B35 via Church]

36 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Short turning might work a little bit but it still doesn’t solve a lot of other issues. Like bus bunching, over crowding and so on. Congestion along with turns create a longer time to get a bus to a certain destination. Think about it this way. If the rockaway parkway area is congested and buses have to turn it would take them a while to get back onto flatlands. Routes already do short turn trips but still service is crap. I take these routes everyday and its  horrible. That’s why routes like the B100 (for me) work. I can get to midwood faster and guarrented to get on a bus and not wait for two or three of them that are crowded, late, or short turned. 

Of course there are routes that serves purpose other than just to subway stations but most people who live in areas not close to a train station rely on buses to get them there Monday through Friday. 

That’s why I proposed a bus route called the B30 along Farragut Rd because it’s straight through and it’s chances of being caught in congestion would be lower than the B6. It would avoid the traffic on rockaway parkway to get onto flatlands by going along Farragut Rd. 

Short turning is something that is done but still it’s not making the customer experience any better. You mayfeel the MTA is digging itself into a hole but I think they’re doing things they should have done a long, long time ago. You have to please customers and just by doing the things we’ve been doing for a long time isn’t going to cut it. 

 

...and how much service could you really justify on a route like that? The fact that its straighter isn't going to be any more convincing....

Look at the service levels on routes like the B84, the B32, the M12, and the Bx46.... You're not going to get the MTA to be all that generous in supplying anymore service than what's being given to those aforementioned routes, to your "B30"... Nor are you going to get too many people to abandon a route like the B6 (with all the problems that it has) for your route there....

Maybe you have me misconstrued - It's not that your intentions aren't good, it's that they're short-sighted..... You're not going to "B42", "B74", "B100" the bus network, system-wide, to death (notice how all those routes terminate in "edge" communities by the way).... It would only have more people driving, carpooling, taxi-ing, biking, etc. to get around.... Can't afford anymore losses in ridership right now.... I have always said that a turn or two can make all the difference in the world in how useful a bus route currently is, versus how useful they likely would not be if those turns were not made - and there are a number of bus routes that holds true with.... When it comes to drawing up a bus system, I am not of the belief that straighter is always better.... Brooklyn & Queens are far too large to try to draw up a grid system which would have the resultant routes be any more timely than the routes of today.... Staten Island (as much as I hate the hub network that exists out there) doesn't have anything remotely close to a street grid outside of the North Shore where one could go about creating a grid network, borought-wide.... The Bronx largely has a modified grid - you have routes that meander the way they do up there, due to topographic reasons.... A pure grid network simply would not fly.....

To your last point.... Well no, I know the MTA done dug themselves into a hole - and I don't have to look any further than a] their own ridership statistics they put out every year (mighty funny how it took later than usual for them to come out w/ the most recent stats thus far) & b] what I've been seeing with my own two eyes with buses & their usages across the city.... There are clearly less people using buses now than say, a decade or so ago..... Lots of lost ridership all over the city, for a multitude of reasons.... SBS, IMO, is being done as a last resort/as a desperate attempt at sparing what ridership there is left.... You saying that they should've done certain things a long time ago, is a large reason why they're in the hole that they're in as far as bus service goes.... Saying that doesn't go against anything I said there....

I'm an advocate for surface transit, but right now, even I have to say that the MTA better worry more about what's going on with their bread & butter - which is the state of the subway....

Edited December 24, 2017 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

I believe the system should be a basic grid system where possible. That doesn't mean you can't have L shaped routes where necessary because of major destinations like Penn Station. What I oppose are unnecessary turns like the B49 turning off to go serve Rogers Avenue for no good reason when it could continue straight along Ocean Avenue. Even the Sheepshead Bay Station turnoff that I designed now needs to be reevaluated because of all the increased traffic traffic in the last 40 years. I also oppose U shaped routes like the Q38. That's why I eliminated the B21. 

As for a pure grid system all over, first of all it isn't even possible because there are too many grid irregularities and it would require much more walking to reach your destination. In fact, Denver tried it back in in the late 70s when it was run by John Simpson. The transit magazines published favorable articles how Simpson came to Denver and in a few months eliminated many turns so the routes could all be straighter and quicker and how they saved on operating costs, knowing nothing about the system. (He was previously from NYC.) So NYC hired him around 1980 as the first NYCTA president. (Prior to that the head was called the chief executive officer.) Then a year later, the ridership numbers were released and it was discovered that the switch to the pure grid system caused massive ridership losses and switches to other modes because many who were previously a few blocks from a bus route now had to walk a half mile to reach one. But he already had the job here. 

The same thing would happen now. You can't design a system simply by doing what looks nice on a map, as Simpson proved. 

The routes need to be long to minimize transfers but most services should be short based on travel patterns to improve reliability. Routes need to overlap like the B5 and B50 once did, not be split in half to increase transferring. We shouldn't be increasing the numbers who need to pay double fare as that and SBS are doing, as long as Cuomo refuses to grant extra free transfers. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

54 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The routes need to be long to minimize transfers....

Yes, it makes sense to minimize transfers, but hugely long routes must necessarily sacrifice reliability.

It would be better to have more short-to-mid-length routes that can provide reliable, high-quality service. Transfers can be mitigated with a time-based pass in place of route-specific transfer privileges.

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I believe the system should be a basic grid system where possible. That doesn't mean you can't have L shaped routes where necessary because of major destinations like Penn Station. What I oppose are unnecessary turns like the B49 turning off to go serve Rogers Avenue for no good reason when it could continue straight along Ocean Avenue. Even the Sheepshead Bay Station turnoff that I designed now needs to be reevaluated because of all the increased traffic traffic in the last 40 years. I also oppose U shaped routes like the Q38. That's why I eliminated the B21. 

As for a pure grid system all over, first of all it isn't even possible because there are too many grid irregularities and it would require much more walking to reach your destination. In fact, Denver tried it back in in the late 70s when it was run by John Simpson. The transit magazines published favorable articles how Simpson came to Denver and in a few months eliminated many turns so the routes could all be straighter and quicker and how they saved on operating costs, knowing nothing about the system. (He was previously from NYC.) So NYC hired him around 1980 as the first NYCTA president. (Prior to that the head was called the chief executive officer.) Then a year later, the ridership numbers were released and it was discovered that the switch to the pure grid system caused massive ridership losses and switches to other modes because many who were previously a few blocks from a bus route now had to walk a half mile to reach one. But he already had the job here. 

The same thing would happen now. You can't design a system simply by doing what looks nice on a map, as Simpson proved. 

The routes need to be long to minimize transfers but most services should be short based on travel patterns to improve reliability. Routes need to overlap like the B5 and B50 once did, not be split in half to increase transferring. We shouldn't be increasing the numbers who need to pay double fare as that and SBS are doing, as long as Cuomo refuses to grant extra free transfers. 

I believe the system should be multifaceted; more or less like what it is now (multiple feeders w/i a basic modified grid, etc.).... Queens has this with Flushing, Jamaica, and to an extent, LIC (QBP area).... 'L' shaped routes for me, depends on the situation (The M100 comes to mind & I have zero problem with that route.... Concentric L shaped routes OTOH like the M4 & the M101 I abhor... The M31 I'm a little torn between [b/c I don't believe a feeder route should exist just to serve York], but I'm more on the nay side than the yay side).... 'U' shaped routes like the B24 & Q38 can go to bed into a coma; I don't care for them either.... Additionally, I'm not a fan of a pure grid system; it's easier to draw up, sure - but I find it to be too restrictive - not surprising at all to hear there were massive ridership losses in the situation you brought up, thanks to it.....

Like I stated to the guy earlier, I don't think anyone is advocating for a bunch of B13 type routes system-wide, but turns here & there on multiple bus routes isn't this great tragedy.... I was trying to be cordial, but again, a bus route b/w the & the along Farragut to be some kind of an attractant that'd avert the issues on the B6, is too short-sighted & that's putting it very mildly.... If I have a gentleman from Greenpoint telling me that a Greenpoint av shuttle (one of my B24 split suggestions) is "a waste of a bus" (which supplements nothing btw), then such a short supplemental suggestion b/w Canarsie & the Junction is even more so..... If it's anything that's largely responsible for killing time on the B6 on that part of the route, it's the sheer passenger activity the route draws per stop, not the amount of turns.....

The same way you feel about the B49 (Rogers/Bedford) is how I feel about the B83 (Van Siclen)..... What I tend to oppose, is intentionally trying to keep a route as straight as possible from end to end for the simple sake of doing so & potentially missing out on lost/latent ridership.... I'm not a part of the *straighter is always better* camp, never have been..... Bugs me to no end - hence that little back & forth here in this thread that took place over the weekend.....

Two things I find that some folks pay too much attention to in these parts (in regards to the general topic at hand) is: 1] route re-numberings & 2] aesthetics, in regards to map composition.... I'm not trying to be Bob Ross (RIP) when I'm drawing my maps.... The Q58's route drawn on a map looks like shit, but try to tell almost 30,000 riders a day or whatever that the route isn't worth it..... Everything can't be Q55-like between its two end terminals.... Bx18's & Q42's have their place in the network too (I can keep going with examples off the top of my head, but I'll stop here)....

[aemoreira81]

19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I believe the system should be multifaceted; more or less like what it is now (multiple feeders w/i a basic modified grid, etc.).... Queens has this with Flushing, Jamaica, and to an extent, LIC (QBP area).... 'L' shaped routes for me, depends on the situation (The M100 comes to mind & I have zero problem with that route.... Concentric L shaped routes OTOH like the M4 & the M101 I abhor... The M31 I'm a little torn between [b/c I don't believe a feeder route should exist just to serve York], but I'm more on the nay side than the yay side).... 'U' shaped routes like the B24 & Q38 can go to bed into a coma; I don't care for them either.... Additionally, I'm not a fan of a pure grid system; it's easier to draw up, sure - but I find it to be too restrictive - not surprising at all to hear there were massive ridership losses in the situation you brought up, thanks to it.....

Like I stated to the guy earlier, I don't think anyone is advocating for a bunch of B13 type routes system-wide, but turns here & there on multiple bus routes isn't this great tragedy.... I was trying to be cordial, but again, a bus route b/w the & the along Farragut to be some kind of an attractant that'd avert the issues on the B6, is too short-sighted & that's putting it very mildly.... If I have a gentleman from Greenpoint telling me that a Greenpoint av shuttle (one of my B24 split suggestions) is "a waste of a bus" (which supplements nothing btw), then such a short supplemental suggestion b/w Canarsie & the Junction is even more so..... If it's anything that's largely responsible for killing time on the B6 on that part of the route, it's the sheer passenger activity the route draws per stop, not the amount of turns.....

The same way you feel about the B49 (Rogers/Bedford) is how I feel about the B83 (Van Siclen)..... What I tend to oppose, is intentionally trying to keep a route as straight as possible from end to end for the simple sake of doing so & potentially missing out on lost/latent ridership.... I'm not a part of the *straighter is always better* camp, never have been..... Bugs me to no end - hence that little back & forth here in this thread that took place over the weekend.....

Two things I find that some folks pay too much attention to in these parts (in regards to the general topic at hand) is: 1] route re-numberings & 2] aesthetics, in regards to map composition.... I'm not trying to be Bob Ross (RIP) when I'm drawing my maps.... The Q58's route drawn on a map looks like shit, but try to tell almost 30,000 riders a day or whatever that the route isn't worth it..... Everything can't be Q55-like between its two end terminals.... Bx18's & Q42's have their place in the network too (I can keep going with examples off the top of my head, but I'll stop here)....

At least the B83 has a point in its routing though...to serve the Linden Houses housing project. The B20 dips down for the same reason. The issue is making a route like the B84 more useful...could that be a branch of the B20? I would have it assume the B20 short turns and route it via Elton and Vandalia to directly serve the new development.

[B35 via Church]

14 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

At least the B83 has a point in its routing though...to serve the Linden Houses housing project. The B20 dips down for the same reason. The issue is making a route like the B84 more useful...could that be a branch of the B20? I would have it assume the B20 short turns and route it via Elton and Vandalia to directly serve the new development.

1] ....just like the rest of the routes in the system have a point to their routing.

2] Penn. av has sorely needed a route running straight along it from B'way Junction to Starrett City IMO for quite some time now.... What does that have to do with making the B84 more useful???

3] ....but since you bring it up, I pretty much gave up on coming out with ideas to try to make the B84 more useful.... I would just scrap it at this point & have those 2 or 3 buses added to some other ENY route.... Speaking of branches, I had an old idea somewhere way back in this thread that involved making the thing a branch of the B14 instead (don't feel like searching for the post right now).... Lastly, I wouldn't go about complicating the B20's service pattern like that [Forest av - Bklyn. Gen. Mail Facility] & [B'way Junction - Gateway Mall]....

[Future ENY OP]

16 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

1] ....just like the rest of the routes in the system have a point to their routing.

2] Penn. av has sorely needed a route running straight along it from B'way Junction to Starrett City IMO for quite some time now.... What does that have to do with making the B84 more useful???

3] ....but since you bring it up, I pretty much gave up on coming out with ideas to try to make the B84 more useful.... I would just scrap it at this point & have those 2 or 3 buses added to some other ENY route.... Speaking of branches, I had an old idea somewhere way back in this thread that involved making the thing a branch of the B14 instead (don't feel like searching for the post right now).... Lastly, I wouldn't go about complicating the B20's service pattern like that [Forest av - Bklyn. Gen. Mail Facility] & [B'way Junction - Gateway Mall]....

B83: Broadway-East New York-Gateway Mall  via Penn Avenue and Belt Parkway = sorely needed.  There should be no reason to have the 83 turning off on New Lots to head via Van Siclen. The best direct route for the 83 should be via Penn. 

B84 is really the toss up. I feel whatever ideas that are being tossed around are good. However, it's something about that East New York bus network that really stings. You need coverage between Linden Plaza/Boulevard Houses and Spring Creek. Although you have the B20 providing coverage. I'm not 100% positive if both routes should swap terminals. 

B20: This should entirely be a East New York, Spring Creek route with part time service to Lefferts Boulevard Air-Train Terminal. 

[BrooklynBus]

On 12/27/2017 at 12:56 AM, B35 via Church said:

I believe the system should be multifaceted; more or less like what it is now (multiple feeders w/i a basic modified grid, etc.).... Queens has this with Flushing, Jamaica, and to an extent, LIC (QBP area).... 'L' shaped routes for me, depends on the situation (The M100 comes to mind & I have zero problem with that route.... Concentric L shaped routes OTOH like the M4 & the M101 I abhor... The M31 I'm a little torn between [b/c I don't believe a feeder route should exist just to serve York], but I'm more on the nay side than the yay side).... 'U' shaped routes like the B24 & Q38 can go to bed into a coma; I don't care for them either.... Additionally, I'm not a fan of a pure grid system; it's easier to draw up, sure - but I find it to be too restrictive - not surprising at all to hear there were massive ridership losses in the situation you brought up, thanks to it.....

Like I stated to the guy earlier, I don't think anyone is advocating for a bunch of B13 type routes system-wide, but turns here & there on multiple bus routes isn't this great tragedy.... I was trying to be cordial, but again, a bus route b/w the & the along Farragut to be some kind of an attractant that'd avert the issues on the B6, is too short-sighted & that's putting it very mildly.... If I have a gentleman from Greenpoint telling me that a Greenpoint av shuttle (one of my B24 split suggestions) is "a waste of a bus" (which supplements nothing btw), then such a short supplemental suggestion b/w Canarsie & the Junction is even more so..... If it's anything that's largely responsible for killing time on the B6 on that part of the route, it's the sheer passenger activity the route draws per stop, not the amount of turns.....

The same way you feel about the B49 (Rogers/Bedford) is how I feel about the B83 (Van Siclen)..... What I tend to oppose, is intentionally trying to keep a route as straight as possible from end to end for the simple sake of doing so & potentially missing out on lost/latent ridership.... I'm not a part of the *straighter is always better* camp, never have been..... Bugs me to no end - hence that little back & forth here in this thread that took place over the weekend.....

Two things I find that some folks pay too much attention to in these parts (in regards to the general topic at hand) is: 1] route re-numberings & 2] aesthetics, in regards to map composition.... I'm not trying to be Bob Ross (RIP) when I'm drawing my maps.... The Q58's route drawn on a map looks like shit, but try to tell almost 30,000 riders a day or whatever that the route isn't worth it..... Everything can't be Q55-like between its two end terminals.... Bx18's & Q42's have their place in the network too (I can keep going with examples off the top of my head, but I'll stop here)....

So I guess we more or less agree on this. I also am not crazy for a turning route line the Q58, but since I can't think of anything better, I would t change it. As for the B83, I can shed some light on that one since it is one of Brooklyn's "newer routes, we had the B20 which went along Pennsylvania and turned east on Linden. There was no development south of Linden so it didn't have to go further. Then Pennsylvania was developed and there was a need to go further. So instead of reevaluating the B20 to see if it should be rerouted, the TA did what they usually do when a new area was developed, just through on a new level of service, so they added the B83 from Broadway Junction to to the Belt along Pennsylvania. Then in 1974, Community Board 5 complained that north south service was deficient and asked for a new route between Penn and Fountain. The MTA refused saying it would cost too much for a new route and said the only thing they could do was move the B83 to Van Siclen to fill the gap. The community did not like that idea but was told, they either accept that or nothing will change. I know this because I attended those meetings when I was at the Department of City Planning. I even worked on the report that recommended the new route the community asked for. 

Later, they did the same thing with the B20 by taking it off Linden, turning the system from a grid into spaghetti. 

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

B83: Broadway-East New York-Gateway Mall  via Penn Avenue and Belt Parkway = sorely needed.  There should be no reason to have the 83 turning off on New Lots to head via Van Siclen. The best direct route for the 83 should be via Penn. 

B84 is really the toss up. I feel whatever ideas that are being tossed around are good. However, it's something about that East New York bus network that really stings. You need coverage between Linden Plaza/Boulevard Houses and Spring Creek. Although you have the B20 providing coverage. I'm not 100% positive if both routes should swap terminals. 

B20: This should entirely be a East New York, Spring Creek route with part time service to Lefferts Boulevard Air-Train Terminal. 

I recommended the B83 extension to Gateway in 2001. The MTA rejected it. One reason they gave is that buses were not allowed on the Belt Parkway. I had to tell them that all they needed was a permit from DOT which Operations Planning at that time DID NOT KNOW. Then it took them three full years to study such a short extension and then made it exactly as I recommended. 

[BrooklynBus]

On 12/26/2017 at 5:54 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Yes, it makes sense to minimize transfers, but hugely long routes must necessarily sacrifice reliability.

It would be better to have more short-to-mid-length routes that can provide reliable, high-quality service. Transfers can be mitigated with a time-based pass in place of route-specific transfer privileges.

Chicago's bus routes are much longer than ours but I guess hey don't have our traffic problems. I believe some local routes are like 20 miles long. 

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

B83: Broadway-East New York-Gateway Mall  via Penn Avenue and Belt Parkway = sorely needed.  There should be no reason to have the 83 turning off on New Lots to head via Van Siclen. The best direct route for the 83 should be via Penn. 

B84 is really the toss up. I feel whatever ideas that are being tossed around are good. However, it's something about that East New York bus network that really stings. You need coverage between Linden Plaza/Boulevard Houses and Spring Creek. Although you have the B20 providing coverage. I'm not 100% positive if both routes should swap terminals. 

B20: This should entirely be a East New York, Spring Creek route with part time service to Lefferts Boulevard Air-Train Terminal. 

I'd say the B20 is the toss up (on what to do with it)... B84 isn't worth it IMO...

While I'm glad that the B15 (short turns) no longer end inside of there, I still think that there shouldn't be anything ending inside the Brooklyn GMF.... Basically, both end terminals on that route are the pits..... Hell, whenever I see B20's on layover at Forest (M), I tend to think that they're subway shuttles instead..... Only reason I'd keep the routing b/w Myrtle & B'way Junction around is for basic coverage.....

The B20 is clearly secondary out there in ENY (B13 & B15 are more sought after) & the only real reason it holds prevalence over the B83 is due to the fact that it serves more of Penn..... From start to finish, I would do a number of things to that route (instead of outright cutting it, which was a rather popular suggestion on subchat back in the day).....

18 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Chicago's bus routes are much longer than ours but I guess hey don't have our traffic problems. I believe some local routes are like 20 miles long. 

Westchester is in this exact same boat.... But then I get a certain so-so on here (Honchkrow) that wants to convey that more of our routes should run on damn highways like some routes do in Westchester.... They don't have our traffic problems either, but I get argued down & are supposed to buy into this being a solution for NYC's bus routes.... Absolutely astonishingly absurd.....

...and I suppose that would be rendered a "personal attack" too.... smfh.

Edited December 29, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

So I guess we more or less agree on this. I also am not crazy for a turning route line the Q58, but since I can't think of anything better, I would t change it. As for the B83, I can shed some light on that one since it is one of Brooklyn's "newer routes, we had the B20 which went along Pennsylvania and turned east on Linden. There was no development south of Linden so it didn't have to go further. Then Pennsylvania was developed and there was a need to go further. So instead of reevaluating the B20 to see if it should be rerouted, the TA did what they usually do when a new area was developed, just through on a new level of service, so they added the B83 from Broadway Junction to to the Belt along Pennsylvania. Then in 1974, Community Board 5 complained that north south service was deficient and asked for a new route between Penn and Fountain. The MTA refused saying it would cost too much for a new route and said the only thing they could do was move the B83 to Van Siclen to fill the gap. The community did not like that idea but was told, they either accept that or nothing will change. I know this because I attended those meetings when I was at the Department of City Planning. I even worked on the report that recommended the new route the community asked for. 

Later, they did the same thing with the B20 by taking it off Linden, turning the system from a grid into spaghetti. 

B83 ran from Liberty and Pennsylvania before the extension to Broadway Junction. The folks coming n/b complained loudly about being left at the local IND stop and having to change again for the IND express or BMT Broadway line at Broadway Junction.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Chicago's bus routes are much longer than ours but I guess hey don't have our traffic problems. I believe some local routes are like 20 miles long. 

So are some routes in and around Los Angeles, but Los Angeles isn't NYC either.

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

So I guess we more or less agree on this. I also am not crazy for a turning route line the Q58, but since I can't think of anything better, I would t change it. As for the B83, I can shed some light on that one since it is one of Brooklyn's "newer routes, we had the B20 which went along Pennsylvania and turned east on Linden. There was no development south of Linden so it didn't have to go further. Then Pennsylvania was developed and there was a need to go further. So instead of reevaluating the B20 to see if it should be rerouted, the TA did what they usually do when a new area was developed, just through on a new level of service, so they added the B83 from Broadway Junction to to the Belt along Pennsylvania. Then in 1974, Community Board 5 complained that north south service was deficient and asked for a new route between Penn and Fountain. The MTA refused saying it would cost too much for a new route and said the only thing they could do was move the B83 to Van Siclen to fill the gap. The community did not like that idea but was told, they either accept that or nothing will change. I know this because I attended those meetings when I was at the Department of City Planning. I even worked on the report that recommended the new route the community asked for. 

Later, they did the same thing with the B20 by taking it off Linden, turning the system from a grid into spaghetti. 

Could you elaborate on the new route the community was recommending back then?

[Eric B]

8 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

So are some routes in and around Los Angeles, but Los Angeles isn't NYC either.

When exploring LA years ago, I would generally take the #1 or 2 (Hollywood or Wilshire, IIRC) out, and then transfer to a southbound route, choosing a different one every trip, and thus case the whole city that way.

They are pretty long, going from one end to the other, and also ran very infrequently (I remember some being every two hours all day). Traffic wasn't a problem; it's only the freeways that were unbearable.

[Future ENY OP]

14 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I recommended the B83 extension to Gateway in 2001. The MTA rejected it. One reason they gave is that buses were not allowed on the Belt Parkway. I had to tell them that all they needed was a permit from DOT which Operations Planning at that time DID NOT KNOW. Then it took them three full years to study such a short extension and then made it exactly as I recommended. 

Buses on the Belt Parkway notion is pretty stupid. I've seen Ulmer Park and FB buses deadhead on the Belt Parkway in all my years driving in Brooklyn. 

However, a study is surely needed for the B83 to fully travel down Penn Avenue without introducing any new bus routes to cover that portion of Penn Avenue. That part of East New York is tricky. 

[Future ENY OP]

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd say the B20 is the toss up (on what to do with it)... B84 isn't worth it IMO...

While I'm glad that the B15 (short turns) no longer end inside of there, I still think that there shouldn't be anything ending inside the Brooklyn GMF.... Basically, both end terminals on that route are the pits..... Hell, whenever I see B20's on layover at Forest (M), I tend to think that they're subway shuttles instead..... Only reason I'd keep the routing b/w Myrtle & B'way Junction around is for basic coverage.....

The B20 is clearly secondary out there in ENY (B13 & B15 are more sought after) & the only real reason it holds prevalence over the B83 is due to the fact that it serves more of Penn..... From start to finish, I would do a number of things to that route (instead of outright cutting it, which was a rather popular suggestion on subchat back in the day).....

 

Once a upon of time. I mentioned about having the B84 work along side the B6 or B82 to provide Canarsie coverage. However, there was no such market for the B84 to help out with the B6 or B82 along Flatlands or Cozine Avenues. 

Right the 84 is the biggest step child to the MTA and there's no possible solution to the problem. Something tells me it's going to have the same fate like the B18 which was the other step child which eventually got eliminated in 2010 unless improvements are made either within East New York or East New York to Canarsie or even East New York to Cypress Hills as there's no bus service fully covering Liberty Avenue.. 

I agree with you in regards to the B13 and B15. I'd also put the B14 in the same category since those 3 buses are the most sought in East New York. B20, and B6 are close 2nd and 3rd.