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B36 Via Ave U

Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don’t think you’re understanding. The people in Breezy Point like being secluded and it is not a coincidence that there is no bus service there. As I said, they are content driving to Riis Park for the QM16. They are insular bunch, so they do not want public transportation there. People don’t know the history of Breezy Point, but it is a very clickish area. You won’t get to move in there unless you have three references from residents already living there. That should tell you all you need to know. One way in and one way out... No outsiders, which is what bus service would bring. 

There are plenty of other examples where cooperatives or other small communities exclude public transit to either keep outsiders out or remain exclusive. North Shore Towers does this as well. They only allow the QM6 express bus in there private grounds so that their residents have direct access to Manhattan for work or mantinées. No local bus though.

I did not say that most people taking this new route would be going to/from Breezy Point. In fact, it won’t even enter Breezy Point. The closest that the Q22, Q35, and the new route will ever be to Breezy Point is Roxbury-Beach 169th Street. Roxbury-Beach 169th Street is at the foot of the Bridge and not even close to it. It is also where the Q22 terminates as well.

 

Instead, I do see most of the ridership at Roxbury-Beach 169th Street folks going over to the western end of the Riis Park as well as access Fort Tilden. Everyone else on the new route would stay on the bus to get off at stops east of the beach, such as along Newport Avenue. Breezy Point won’t even be touched by bus service.

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2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I did not say that most people taking this new route would be going to/from Breezy Point. In fact, it won’t even enter Breezy Point. The closest that the Q22, Q35, and the new route will ever be to Breezy Point is Roxbury-Beach 169th Street. Roxbury-Beach 169th Street is at the foot of the Bridge and not even close to it. It is also where the Q22 terminates as well.

 

Instead, I do see most of the ridership at Roxbury-Beach 169th Street folks going over to the western end of the Riis Park as well as access Fort Tilden. Everyone else on the new route would stay on the bus to get off at stops east of the beach, such as along Newport Avenue. Breezy Point won’t even be touched by bus service.

Well that’s different, and if anything were to run there, that’s about as far as it should go. Aside from Breezy Point, there is another area that is also private and they like Breezy Point have no interest in bus service.

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Posted (edited)

I will say something else though. If people don’t want bus service in their neighborhood, I can assure you that the (MTA) is more than happy to oblige. Less service they have to run the better is how they view it. lol

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Funny how no one mentions the UA multiplex theater, the only movie theater left in southern Brooklyn, or the three nursing homes as draws. 

Yeah because the people working in the nursing homes usually take the B44 and that wouldn’t change since those people live in Flatbush and elsewhere. The movie goers, some of them use the B4. The rest appear to drive.

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9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I will say something else though. If people don’t want bus service in their neighborhood, I can assure you that the (MTA) is more than happy to oblige. Less service they have to run the better is how they view it. lol

...but yet are willing to piss away money starting up dinky shuttles - only to later end up scrounging to make cuts elsewhere in the system (like that of a Q44 or a Q46) to aid in keeping those services afloat....

Go figure.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...but yet are willing to piss away money starting up dinky shuttles - only to later end up scrounging to make cuts elsewhere in the system (like that of a Q44 or a Q46) to aid in keeping those services afloat....

Go figure.

The foamers on this forum... lol I have met some of the planners and if they (the foamers) met them they would be in for a treat.  I always get a chuckle out of these proposals though because most of them will never see the light of day. Either they don’t make sense from an operational/cost standpoint, or they would be shot down by people in the communities. I remember going to a transportation meeting in my area, and people complaining about there being too many trains and shuttle buses and that the trains shuck their foundations. LMAO There is probably some truth to that though because I can hear the trains from where I live sometimes which is crazy. Anywho, I could see the people on Knapp Street now... LMAO. The B4 portion of Knapp Street is different because it goes over near Emmons and that’s a different crowd than the Knapp Street residents further north. I could see them making a stink about a route for sure.

As for the planners, try convincing them that they need to make a change to lines that they oversee... LOL BrooklynBus can tell you a thing or two about that.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I can agree with the Gerritsen Beach comment. I grew up hanging up with the folks down there. The other thing that is left out is that a lot of these folks work for the City as policeman, firefighters, etc, so they tend to drive. The people that work in Manhattan will take the B31 to Kings Highway for the train, or BM4 express bus.

Gerristen Beach is like Sheepshead Bay and Staten Island.. Tons of Police, FDNY and EMS people living in the area.. In the 1990's Canarsie was once considered NYPD/FDNY/EMS territory. However, most of Canarsie has turned urban and people moving from Flatbush, East Flatbush and East New York descending into Canarsie. 

Now, in regards of transportation lets remember the delegation of Southern Brooklyn is what I called bougie. If people like Helen Weinstein, David G. Greenfield, Chaim Deutsch, Mathieu Eugene, Darlene Mealy, Kevin Parker are in office there will be no change in regards to Southern and Central Brooklyn. They are quick to scream about cuts. However, won't be an agent of change when it comes to transportation issues. If some young progressives can make the change and change the tide than we can possibly see some Gerristen Beach and Sheepshead Bay bus changes.

Brooklyn deserves the treatment of Manhattan. PERIOD!

Edited by Future ENY OP

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57 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The foamers on this forum... lol I have met some of the planners and if they (the foamers) met them they would be in for a treat.  I always get a chuckle out of these proposals though because most of them will never see the light of day. Either they don’t make sense from an operational/cost standpoint, or they would be shot down by people in the communities. I remember going to a transportation meeting in my area, and people complaining about there being too many trains and shuttle buses and that the trains shuck their foundations. LMAO There is probably some truth to that though because I can hear the trains from where I live sometimes which is crazy. Anywho, I could see the people on Knapp Street now... LMAO. The B4 portion of Knapp Street is different because it goes over near Emmons and that’s a different crowd than the Knapp Street residents further north. I could see them making a stink about a route for sure.

As for the planners, try convincing them that they need to make a change to lines that they oversee... LOL BrooklynBus can tell you a thing or two about that.

There may be something to trains shaking foundations. I remember when they started running R44s on the Brighton line, there were complaints of cracks in the foundations. Don’t remember how it was resolved. Maybe the trains were removed. They never complained about any other car class.

 

20 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Gerristen Beach is like Sheepshead Bay and Staten Island.. Tons of Police, FDNY and EMS people living in the area.. In the 1990's Canarsie was once considered NYPD/FDNY/EMS territory. However, most of Canarsie has turned urban and people moving from Flatbush, East Flatbush and East New York descending into Canarsie. 

Now, in regards of transportation lets remember the delegation of Southern Brooklyn is what I called bougie. If people like Helen Weinstein, David G. Greenfield, Chaim Deutsch, Mathieu Eugene, Darlene Mealy, Kevin Parker are in office there will be no change in regards to Southern and Central Brooklyn. They are quick to scream about cuts. However, won't be an agent of change when it comes to transportation issues. If some young progressives can make the change and change the tide than we can possibly see some Gerristen Beach and Sheepshead Bay bus changes.

Brooklyn deserves the treatment of Manhattan. PERIOD!

Not really true. Deutsch fought for five years to get a B44 SBS stop at Avenue R. I give him credit because he didn’t give up or forget about it. 

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1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

There may be something to trains shaking foundations. I remember when they started running R44s on the Brighton line, there were complaints of cracks in the foundations. Don’t remember how it was resolved. Maybe the trains were removed. They never complained about any other car class.

 

Not really true. Deutsch fought for five years to get a B44 SBS stop at Avenue R. I give him credit because he didn’t give up or forget about it. 

That's just only him.. How about the rest of the delegation..... b/c honestly and truthfully the rest of the delegation don't care..

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21 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Gerristen Beach is like Sheepshead Bay and Staten Island.. Tons of Police, FDNY and EMS people living in the area.. In the 1990's Canarsie was once considered NYPD/FDNY/EMS territory. However, most of Canarsie has turned urban and people moving from Flatbush, East Flatbush and East New York descending into Canarsie. 

Now, in regards of transportation lets remember the delegation of Southern Brooklyn is what I called bougie. If people like Helen Weinstein, David G. Greenfield, Chaim Deutsch, Mathieu Eugene, Darlene Mealy, Kevin Parker are in office there will be no change in regards to Southern and Central Brooklyn. They are quick to scream about cuts. However, won't be an agent of change when it comes to transportation issues. If some young progressives can make the change and change the tide than we can possibly see some Gerristen Beach and Sheepshead Bay bus changes.

Brooklyn deserves the treatment of Manhattan. PERIOD!

The constituents don't want cuts. Beyond that, they're ambivalent at best to additional routes going to certain areas, which gives the MTA no incentive to even remotely try.

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3 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

That's just only him.. How about the rest of the delegation..... b/c honestly and truthfully the rest of the delegation don't care..

You are probably right. Weinstein fought for the Avenue L B44 SBS Stop. She wrote one letter. I am not aware of anything else any of them has done transportation wise.

1 minute ago, Lex said:

The constituents don't want cuts. Beyond that, they're ambivalent at best to additional routes going to certain areas, which gives the MTA no incentive to even remotely try.

Correct. That’s because riders accept existing routes as a given. That doesn’t mean changes are not warranted.

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5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Correct. That’s because riders accept existing routes as a given. That doesn’t mean changes are not warranted.

Sure, let's go with that...

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13 minutes ago, Lex said:

Sure, let's go with that...

When I surveyed 8,000 bus riders in 1975, I don’t think more than three or four people recommended a route change in the comments section. If you look at thee d of the Bronx Existing Conditions Report, it says they received a few requests for new routes or extensions. No one suggested any route restructuring. Be funny if the final report doesn’t include any route restructuring because no one recommended any. 

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5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

When I surveyed 8,000 bus riders in 1975, I don’t think more than three or four people recommended a route change in the comments section. If you look at thee d of the Bronx Existing Conditions Report, it says they received a few requests for new routes or extensions. No one suggested any route restructuring. Be funny if the final report doesn’t include any route restructuring because no one recommended any. 

That could be because of how they created the workshops. I went specifically to discuss express buses. Did we talk about them? Nope. We did talk about having the Bx1 extenddd to 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway to make it more useful.

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38 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That could be because of how they created the workshops. I went specifically to discuss express buses. Did we talk about them? Nope. We did talk about having the Bx1 extenddd to 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway to make it more useful.

Going off topic here, but I wouldn't do that, as the route already has to do a lot on Grand Concourse.

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6 minutes ago, Lex said:

Going off topic here, but I wouldn't do that, as the route already has to do a lot on Grand Concourse.

Used to exist back in the day.  It would make it far more useful after 231st and Broadway. After that stop drivers don’t want to pick-up and run light to 231st and Riverdale. It would help out the Bx7 esp. which suffers from overcrowding and long waits. Have it run with the Bx7 up to 246th and HHP. It would add 5-10 minutes to the commute tops.

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8 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Now, in regards of transportation lets remember the delegation of Southern Brooklyn is what I called bougie.

I can't come to grips w/ dubbing them bougie..... AFAIC, they're your typical suits....

7 hours ago, Lex said:

The constituents don't want cuts. Beyond that, they're ambivalent at best to additional routes going to certain areas, which gives the MTA no incentive to even remotely try.

...especially after the debacle/musical chairs that transpired w/ bus service in Country Club & Pelham Bay w/ the Bx5 & Bx8, forget it.

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I can't come to grips w/ dubbing them bougie..... AFAIC, they're your typical suits....

...especially after the debacle/musical chairs that transpired w/ bus service in Country Club & Pelham Bay w/ the Bx5 & Bx8, forget it.

I attended meetings of the Northeast Bronx study back in the 90s. The MTA made a bunch of recommendations. The community responded with we like some of them and others we want to change and recommended their own changes. The MTA’s response was either accept al, our proposals exactly as we suggested or you don’t get any changes at all. The community refused and no changes resulted as a result of that study. The MTA ‘s conclusion was that large studies just do not work and started studying only one or two routes at a time. That didn’t change until they gave into politicians requests to study Northeast Queens several years ago before Byford.

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8 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

When I surveyed 8,000 bus riders in 1975, I don’t think more than three or four people recommended a route change in the comments section. If you look at thee d of the Bronx Existing Conditions Report, it says they received a few requests for new routes or extensions. No one suggested any route restructuring. Be funny if the final report doesn’t include any route restructuring because no one recommended any. 

 

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That could be because of how they created the workshops. I went specifically to discuss express buses. Did we talk about them? Nope. We did talk about having the Bx1 extenddd to 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway to make it more useful.

Customers probably put route extensions/new routes at the bottom of their priorities purely because most of their concerns lie with the way service is provided. Many customers are rightly irritated due to bunching (which then leads to a larger gap between buses, naturally) and even though it is just something to be "expected," sardine-can conditions factor into that irritation. So service perception will always outweigh route changes, and rightfully so. You can't decide to implement anything new or changed if you're not meeting demand already.

The workshops' impact has a lot to do with when they're scheduled. Around here, DDOT has some both during the day as well as in the evening, and they get a lot of participation. Last ones SMART did were in rush hour (5-7pm) and were lackluster. As far as outcomes go, DDOT has made modifications to their original plans from what they heard at the workshops. SMART basically went with their plans, full steam ahead.

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11 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I attended meetings of the Northeast Bronx study back in the 90s. The MTA made a bunch of recommendations. The community responded with we like some of them and others we want to change and recommended their own changes. The MTA’s response was either accept al, our proposals exactly as we suggested or you don’t get any changes at all. The community refused and no changes resulted as a result of that study. The MTA ‘s conclusion was that large studies just do not work and started studying only one or two routes at a time. That didn’t change until they gave into politicians requests to study Northeast Queens several years ago before Byford.

And that "all or nothing" and "we know better than you" approach makes customers that much more untrusting that any of their own suggestions matter -- so they stop giving them or involving themselves. Which partially turns into expecting their elected officials to handle all of the work (not gonna happen in most cases), unless a smaller group of constituents puts the pressure on.

So customers do two things: a] Suck it up and just deal with current conditions/service changes, or b] Stop using the buses and find their own alternatives. And that's why the MTA's "holier than thou" attitudes (and business practices) have led to what's happening today. So nobody to blame for 15 mph buses and customers staying away from them except themselves.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DetSMART45 said:

And that "all or nothing" and "we know better than you" approach makes customers that much more untrusting that any of their own suggestions matter -- so they stop giving them or involving themselves. Which partially turns into expecting their elected officials to handle all of the work (not gonna happen in most cases), unless a smaller group of constituents puts the pressure on.

So customers do two things: a] Suck it up and just deal with current conditions/service changes, or b] Stop using the buses and find their own alternatives. And that's why the MTA's "holier than thou" attitudes (and business practices) have led to what's happening today. So nobody to blame for 15 mph buses and customers staying away from them except themselves.

 

Couldn't agree more.

And yes. Service issues are the most important. In the study I referred to that I did 44 years ago, bunching, reliability and crowding, topped the complaint list by far. They accounted for over 50 percent of the complaints, maybe 70 percent. So what else us new?

The only thing that has changed I believe is that bus driver complaints went down. That was the second most popular complaint back then. Bus drivers who refused to kneel buses and who didn't pull up to the curb. The kneeling feature was much less reliable back then, and often the bus wouldn't "stand up" again after it kneeled which explained the drivers refusal. I also believe more drivers pull up to the curb today when they are able.

Third most popular complaint which I also believe has declined were bus issues: no A/C, roaches, dirty seats, etc. And as I said routing was dead last. 

Edited by BrooklynBus

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

 

Couldn't agree more.

And yes. Service issues are the most important. In the study I referred to that I did 44 years ago, bunching, reliability and crowding, topped the complaint list by far. They accounted for over 50 percent of the complaints, maybe 70 percent. So what else us new?

The only thing that has changed I believe is that bus driver complaints went down. That was the second most popular complaint back then. Bus drivers who refused to kneel buses and who didn't pull up to the curb. The kneeling feature was much less reliable back then, and often the bus wouldn't "stand up" again after it kneeled which explained the drivers refusal. I also believe more drivers pull up to the curb today when they are able.

Third most popular complaint which I also believe has declined were bus issues: no A/C, roaches, dirty seats, etc. And as I said routing was dead last. 

The GMC RTS buses (at least until the 1985 order inclusive) were notorious for that...some just went down hard and would not go back up, sometimes forcing a bus to be removed from service. When the last Orion low floors are removed, another complaint will be eliminated---bus too high. The O7 rides a lot higher than the LFS or Xcelsior.

The other problems are when a dispatcher isn't paying attention and won't put a bus in place (instead saying to keep going) and ghost buses (not visible to either the dispatcher or the customer). This has been a problem with the newer XD40 and LFS buses.

Edited by aemoreira81
Note which RTS buses---didn't ever experience that problem on the 1986 batch

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I'm planning a trip to LA and noticed that the silver line bus route is a full-fledged on BRT highway route with separate lanes and stations on the highway. Seeing this, I was thinking if a BRT route via the BQE/Gowanus would be beneficial with its own lanes and stations. Express buses would also use these lanes to speed to Manhattan without car traffic. I was thinking of a route that started in Bay Ridge (with a spur to Grasmere, SI) and took the BRT route via the BQE/Gowanus to Flushing, Queens via LaGuardia Airport. I know that this would take a while to build but I think that it would become beneficial in the long run.

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40 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I'm planning a trip to LA and noticed that the silver line bus route is a full-fledged on BRT highway route with separate lanes and stations on the highway. Seeing this, I was thinking if a BRT route via the BQE/Gowanus would be beneficial with its own lanes and stations. Express buses would also use these lanes to speed to Manhattan without car traffic. I was thinking of a route that started in Bay Ridge (with a spur to Grasmere, SI) and took the BRT route via the BQE/Gowanus to Flushing, Queens via LaGuardia Airport. I know that this would take a while to build but I think that it would become beneficial in the long run.

The space doesn't exist to support anything of the sort (hell, just the bus lanes will quickly run into issues because the people that aren't driving buses will complain about not getting more lanes to use, even though adding general-use lanes will only open the door for more pollution and no real change in gridlock).

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