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B36 Via Ave U

Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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3 hours ago, Lex said:

No facepalm is enough...

(I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing it out.)

I figured something was lost in translation 😁. I’ve  had a free bus and subway pass for almost forty years and I have never made the short trip from Jay to Borough Hall by public transit. Heck, my uncle and I walked it last week and he’s 88 while I’m a kid ( his words) of 70. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread the Downtown Brooklyn area is the hub, the CBD is the destination, so any bus route that does NOT enter this area is , by definition, a waste. Just my opinion. Carry on.

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14 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

First of all, can you provide us with a map of where you would put this "Shuttle" and terminate the other routes?

Also, Downtown Brooklyn is supposed to be a hub, where people would transfer to other bus routes. Not the best idea because you would be forcing people to make another transfer, and more transfers = less reliability = lost ridership.

I was the one who wrote the linked article he cited. I wrote it back in 2013 when much more land was available near Atlantic Terminal. Today, I do not know if a bus terminal like the one I envisioned would even be possible. I also once mapped out which routes I would terminate there and it would have included all bus routes  traveling the length of the Fulton Mall and Livingston Street and no others. It would not include routes like the B54, B57, B61, B62, B63, and B103. 

It was to be an enclosed terminal with heating and A/C with a short walk between buses and a three car light rail vehicle that would be free and run via the Fulton Street Mall cutting through Borough Hall to Cadman Plaza with some vehicles continuing to Brooklyn Bridge Park or south toward Red Hook. The headways would be every two or three minutes most of the day. There would always be one waiting. Late night, buses could run on their present routes. Just as people do not mind across the platform subway transfers if there is no extra wait, I believe this transfer would be just as acceptable. It would also greatly increase reliability of any bus route terminating at the terminal since the routes would be shorter and not have to deal with Downtown traffic congestion. The light rail would have its own right of way and also would be reliable. 

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3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I was the one who wrote the linked article he cited. I wrote it back in 2013 when much more land was available near Atlantic Terminal. Today, I do not know if a bus terminal like the one I envisioned would even be possible. I also once mapped out which routes I would terminate there and it would have included all bus routes  traveling the length of the Fulton Mall and Livingston Street and no others. It would not include routes like the B54, B57, B61, B62, B63, and B103. 

It was to be an enclosed terminal with heating and A/C with a short walk between buses and a three car light rail vehicle that would be free and run via the Fulton Street Mall cutting through Borough Hall to Cadman Plaza with some vehicles continuing to Brooklyn Bridge Park or south toward Red Hook. The headways would be every two or three minutes most of the day. There would always be one waiting. Late night, buses could run on their present routes. Just as people do not mind across the platform subway transfers if there is no extra wait, I believe this transfer would be just as acceptable. It would also greatly increase reliability of any bus route terminating at the terminal since the routes would be shorter and not have to deal with Downtown traffic congestion. The light rail would have its own right of way and also would be reliable. 

I also read that old article of yours and it is great. I like the idea of having a light rail replace the buses on Fulton Mall and Livingston Street. Light rail could be perfect for a shopping corridor like the Fulton Mall.

I was also thinking of the same thing you are talking about, and DOT even recommended a bus terminal in Downtown for the routes. However, the difference between your idea and the DOT recommendation was that the DOT was proposing a bus shuttle to Tillary Street while you were proposing a light rail. However, DOT also proposed truncation of routes running along the Fulton and Livingston corridor to the new terminals, which is similar to what you want. However, the benefits are the same: reliability of the truncated routes now that they no longer have to deal with the Downtown congestion, which is something I have personally witnessed, especially along Jay St.

As far as land is concerned, I know that there may not any be suitable spaces available for a bus terminal you envision today. However, this situation is not unique to Flushing, as even the MTA also recommended a bus terminal in there, but no suitable space is available. Just like Flushing, I do believe there will be available space in the future to build the terminal.

And finally, the routes that should terminate there are the B25, B26, B37, B38, B41, B45, B52, and B67. All travel on Fulton and Livingston and will be able to terminate at the terminal, with the light rail providing replacement service in Downtown. However, the northern section of the B67 through the Navy Yard should be replaced by another route that can serve both Downtown Brooklyn, Dumbo, and the Brooklyn Navy Yard all at once (the initial goal of the B67. An extension of either the B61 from Fulton Mall to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza or the B32 from the Plaza to the Mall should be studied. The northern end of the B25 can also be served by the light rail as well. However, with the truncation of these routes to the terminal, bus service on these routes can be several times more reliable in the area most people are traveling (outside Downtown Brooklyn). The extra buses left over from this can be used for extra service. More specifically:

Enhanced B25 bus service between Broadway Jct and the terminal

Short turn B41 service operating between Nostrand Junction and it’s southern terminals.

Better B41 service in general

Better B67 and B69 service on 7th Avenue 

Those are some of the ideas that can be done with the extra buses. The B103 can continue to operate into Downtown via Livingston.

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13 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I also read that old article of yours and it is great. I like the idea of having a light rail replace the buses on Fulton Mall and Livingston Street. Light rail could be perfect for a shopping corridor like the Fulton Mall.

I was also thinking of the same thing you are talking about, and DOT even recommended a bus terminal in Downtown for the routes. However, the difference between your idea and the DOT recommendation was that the DOT was proposing a bus shuttle to Tillary Street while you were proposing a light rail. However, DOT also proposed truncation of routes running along the Fulton and Livingston corridor to the new terminals, which is similar to what you want. However, the benefits are the same: reliability of the truncated routes now that they no longer have to deal with the Downtown congestion, which is something I have personally witnessed, especially along Jay St.

As far as land is concerned, I know that there may not any be suitable spaces available for a bus terminal you envision today. However, this situation is not unique to Flushing, as even the MTA also recommended a bus terminal in there, but no suitable space is available. Just like Flushing, I do believe there will be available space in the future to build the terminal.

And finally, the routes that should terminate there are the B25, B26, B37, B38, B41, B45, B52, and B67. All travel on Fulton and Livingston and will be able to terminate at the terminal, with the light rail providing replacement service in Downtown. However, the northern section of the B67 through the Navy Yard should be replaced by another route that can serve both Downtown Brooklyn, Dumbo, and the Brooklyn Navy Yard all at once (the initial goal of the B67. An extension of either the B61 from Fulton Mall to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza or the B32 from the Plaza to the Mall should be studied. The northern end of the B25 can also be served by the light rail as well. However, with the truncation of these routes to the terminal, bus service on these routes can be several times more reliable in the area most people are traveling (outside Downtown Brooklyn). The extra buses left over from this can be used for extra service. More specifically:

Enhanced B25 bus service between Broadway Jct and the terminal

Short turn B41 service operating between Nostrand Junction and it’s southern terminals.

Better B41 service in general

Better B67 and B69 service on 7th Avenue 

Those are some of the ideas that can be done with the extra buses. The B103 can continue to operate into Downtown via Livingston.

I would replace the northern end of the B67 with a rerouted B69 that served its original route so that B67 service could be returned to the frequencies it once had. The MTA really destroyed that route.

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I think the b24 should be rerouted to a more direct route from brooklyn to queens and also be extended to Woodside 61 st train station on roosevelt ave. This will help connect the b24 to the Q70 to the airport for a easy connection 

The b24 should take 

. Broadway to Kent st 

. Make a right on kent st continue on kent st till it merge with franklin ave 

. Make a right on greenpoint ave continue on greenpoint ave and terminate at woodside 61 st station 

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I also thought that the Q8 can do a small rerouting also instead of  making that turn on Euclid ave and then turning on linden blvd to fountain ave the Q8 can continue on pitkin ave and make a left on fountain ave for a more direct route 

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18 hours ago, B39 said:

I also thought that the Q8 can do a small rerouting also instead of  making that turn on Euclid ave and then turning on linden blvd to fountain ave the Q8 can continue on pitkin ave and make a left on fountain ave for a more direct route 

That would be a very good idea to speed up service. I actually thought of that a long time ago, since I was under the impression that because the two streets are not that far apart, and the two routes are going to Gateway Center anyway, no one would lose service.

I also recommend increasing B13 bus service to compensate.

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ENY-area restructuring:

B83: Rerouted to operate straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. On northern end, alternate buses extended up to Myrtle/Summerfield to cover northern section of present-day B20.

B84: Rerouted to operate from Broadway Junction to Brooklyn Developmental Center via Pennsylvania Avenue-New Lots Avenue-Van Siclen Avenue-Flatlands Avenue-Elton Street-Vandalia Avenue-Erskine Street-Seaview Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B20: Restructured to operate from Euclid Avenue (A)(C) to Canarsie/Rockaway Parkway (L) via Euclid Avenue-Sutter Avenue-Eldert Lane-Stanley Avenue-East 108th Street-Glenwood Road. This would cover the eastern part of the B60, which would be truncated to Rockaway Parkway.

Q8: Westbound buses take Pitkin Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B13: Buses take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent

B14 extended to Rockaway Blvd (A) station. Q7 truncated to Rockaway Blvd (A) station.

B8 branch to Rockaway Parkway (L) station via Remsen Avenue-Avenue D-Rockaway Parkway.

I think the B17 to the Paerdegats should become a shuttle to the (L) station. The question is, with all the routes terminating there (B8 branch, B20, B42, B60, Paerdegat shuttle), should anything be through-routed? Maybe the B20 with the Paerdegat shuttle.

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I would say create a little intermodal area on Junius St. to extend both the B8 and B35 the few blocks to the (L) New Lots Station. (Seems so obvious, and doesn't have sense to have those two routes stop sort like that).

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5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

ENY-area restructuring:

B83: Rerouted to operate straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. On northern end, alternate buses extended up to Myrtle/Summerfield to cover northern section of present-day B20.

B84: Rerouted to operate from Broadway Junction to Brooklyn Developmental Center via Pennsylvania Avenue-New Lots Avenue-Van Siclen Avenue-Flatlands Avenue-Elton Street-Vandalia Avenue-Erskine Street-Seaview Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B20: Restructured to operate from Euclid Avenue (A)(C) to Canarsie/Rockaway Parkway (L) via Euclid Avenue-Sutter Avenue-Eldert Lane-Stanley Avenue-East 108th Street-Glenwood Road. This would cover the eastern part of the B60, which would be truncated to Rockaway Parkway.

Q8: Westbound buses take Pitkin Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B13: Buses take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent

B14 extended to Rockaway Blvd (A) station. Q7 truncated to Rockaway Blvd (A) station.

B8 branch to Rockaway Parkway (L) station via Remsen Avenue-Avenue D-Rockaway Parkway.

I think the B17 to the Paerdegats should become a shuttle to the (L) station. The question is, with all the routes terminating there (B8 branch, B20, B42, B60, Paerdegat shuttle), should anything be through-routed? Maybe the B20 with the Paerdegat shuttle.

I would leave the B8 alone as it is. Don’t forget the B8 is already a long route going to Bay Ridge. Any additional extension would create some form of havoc if you ask me. Although terminating at Rockaway-Hegeman doesn’t make the best logical sense. However, perhaps an extension to (L) on New Lots or even Penn- New Lots Avenue would be a bit beneficial.  

Your B14 idea i agree with only b/c there will be additional service along Sutter Avenue. 

Honestly, it’s about time for the B83 to only operate down via Penn Ave to Gateway. However, leave the Ridgewood service to the B20. 

B84 idea is good. 

B20 to Canarsie. Bad idea. Ridgewood or Broadway-East New York to Air-train Lefferts Boulevard is a lot more suitable for this. 

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3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

ENY-area restructuring:

B83: Rerouted to operate straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. On northern end, alternate buses extended up to Myrtle/Summerfield to cover northern section of present-day B20.

B84: Rerouted to operate from Broadway Junction to Brooklyn Developmental Center via Pennsylvania Avenue-New Lots Avenue-Van Siclen Avenue-Flatlands Avenue-Elton Street-Vandalia Avenue-Erskine Street-Seaview Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B20: Restructured to operate from Euclid Avenue (A)(C) to Canarsie/Rockaway Parkway (L) via Euclid Avenue-Sutter Avenue-Eldert Lane-Stanley Avenue-East 108th Street-Glenwood Road. This would cover the eastern part of the B60, which would be truncated to Rockaway Parkway.

Q8: Westbound buses take Pitkin Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B13: Buses take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent

B14 extended to Rockaway Blvd (A) station. Q7 truncated to Rockaway Blvd (A) station.

B8 branch to Rockaway Parkway (L) station via Remsen Avenue-Avenue D-Rockaway Parkway.

I think the B17 to the Paerdegats should become a shuttle to the (L) station. The question is, with all the routes terminating there (B8 branch, B20, B42, B60, Paerdegat shuttle), should anything be through-routed? Maybe the B20 with the Paerdegat shuttle.

* Aside from the fact that I'd wash my hands of the B84 (and I've said this ever since that bus terminal out there was completed), anything serving Gateway Mall should be ending there at Gateway II.... Nothing should be running along Fountain, south of Vandalia....

* As for the B13 & B20 suggestions, I can't agree with having the B13 serving less of the Pink Houses directly & completely not serving the Linden Plaza apartments, specifically... Most of those folks are taking B13's & B15's..... That's sacrificing too much ridership down there, just to straighten/shave runtime off the route - and I guarantee you're not getting those old people to walk over to Crescent/Linden for it.... That's the equivalent of not having any of the Co-op City routes serve Dreiser and/or Asch loops & telling folks to walk they ass over to Bartow or Co-Op City blvd for bus service instead....

* Your B20 I'm more or less indifferent on..... I get having something directly connecting that part of ENY to the (L) & filling a service gap b/w ENY & Canarsie, but again, using it to supplant the B13's serving of (most of) the Pink Houses, I can't rock with... The message you're indirectly sending there is that those patrons value/seek (L)'s over (J)'s & I'm not so sure it's that cut & dry..... Even if that was the case, those riders would still bombard B15's to New Lots (L), over your B20 to Canarsie (L)...

....which poses another problem - the over-saturation of Canarsie (L) (which you admit to)....

I mean, to address that last question, I'd say a Paerdegat shuttle to the (L) would be a waste of resources... I suppose you can:

  1. combine that idea (of a shuttle) with your B20 (as you said), or
  2. kill the idea of branching the B8 & instead, carve a supplement to a portion of the B8, running b/w Nostrand av & the Breukelen Houses (via the current B8 to Remsen av > down Remsen > across Glenwood, to do the B60 to the Breukelen Houses), or
  3. suggestion #2 above, with the addition of running B60's to Canarsie HS (or somewhere mid-way along Rockaway Pkwy, south of Flatlands.... there's nothing saying that the B42 should have a monopoly on that part of Rockaway Pkwy)...The idea here is NOT to combine the B60 with the B42, for anyone else reading... IDK, just something to free up BPH terminating at the subway station...
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1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

I would leave the B8 alone as it is. Don’t forget the B8 is already a long route going to Bay Ridge. Any additional extension would create some form of havoc if you ask me. Although terminating at Rockaway-Hegeman doesn’t make the best logical sense. However, perhaps an extension to (L) on New Lots or even Penn- New Lots Avenue would be a bit beneficial.  

That wouldn't be an extension. It would be a branch of similar length to the current B8. That being said, that does remind me that when I first came up with the idea, I had the Canarsie branch served by an extended B23 (the old Borough Park-Flatbush shuttle)

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

* Aside from the fact that I'd wash my hands of the B84 (and I've said this ever since that bus terminal out there was completed), anything serving Gateway Mall should be ending there at Gateway II.... Nothing should be running along Fountain, south of Vandalia....

* As for the B13 & B20 suggestions, I can't agree with having the B13 serving less of the Pink Houses directly & completely not serving the Linden Plaza apartments, specifically... Most of those folks are taking B13's & B15's..... That's sacrificing too much ridership down there, just to straighten/shave runtime off the route - and I guarantee you're not getting those old people to walk over to Crescent/Linden for it.... That's the equivalent of not having any of the Co-op City routes serve Dreiser and/or Asch loops & telling folks to walk they ass over to Bartow or Co-Op City blvd for bus service instead....

* Your B20 I'm more or less indifferent on..... I get having something directly connecting that part of ENY to the (L) & filling a service gap b/w ENY & Canarsie, but again, using it to supplant the B13's serving of (most of) the Pink Houses, I can't rock with... The message you're indirectly sending there is that those patrons value/seek (L)'s over (J)'s & I'm not so sure it's that cut & dry..... Even if that was the case, those riders would still bombard B15's to New Lots (L), over your B20 to Canarsie (L)...

....which poses another problem - the over-saturation of Canarsie (L) (which you admit to)....

I mean, to address that last question, I'd say a Paerdegat shuttle to the (L) would be a waste of resources... I suppose you can:

  1. combine that idea (of a shuttle) with your B20 (as you said), or
  2. kill the idea of branching the B8 & instead, carve a supplement to a portion of the B8, running b/w Nostrand av & the Breukelen Houses (via the current B8 to Remsen av > down Remsen > across Glenwood, to do the B60 to the Breukelen Houses), or
  3. suggestion #2 above, with the addition of running B60's to Canarsie HS (or somewhere mid-way along Rockaway Pkwy, south of Flatlands.... there's nothing saying that the B42 should have a monopoly on that part of Rockaway Pkwy)...The idea here is NOT to combine the B60 with the B42, for anyone else reading... IDK, just something to free up BPH terminating at the subway station...

When you say nothing along Fountain south of Vandalia, does that include the present-day southbound Q8/B13?

Also, for people in the Pink Houses & Linden Plaza Apartments, the idea was that they would use it to reach the (A)(C) at Euclid. (The riders west of Ashford are those I would expect to ride to the (L) ). If there's a significant number of people riding towards the (J) then a short extension to Fulton Street can be made.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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6 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I would leave the B8 alone as it is. Don’t forget the B8 is already a long route going to Bay Ridge. Any additional extension would create some form of havoc if you ask me. Although terminating at Rockaway-Hegeman doesn’t make the best logical sense. However, perhaps an extension to (L) on New Lots or even Penn- New Lots Avenue would be a bit beneficial.  

Your B14 idea i agree with only b/c there will be additional service along Sutter Avenue. 

Honestly, it’s about time for the B83 to only operate down via Penn Ave to Gateway. However, leave the Ridgewood service to the B20. 

B84 idea is good. 

B20 to Canarsie. Bad idea. Ridgewood or Broadway-East New York to Air-train Lefferts Boulevard is a lot more suitable for this. 

While true, I wasn't even thinking about the added distance; I don't care for the branching aspect of it (the B8).... With the real B8, at this point, I'd have it continue along the length of Av B, to Rockaway Pkwy., to Church, to stand (and do away with that 45 degree parking along the Rockaway side of Brookdale in the process)..... The current EB routing (Remsen > Church > E. 98th > Rockaway (av)) is rather pointless.... I'd much rather have buses utilizing Av B. for coverage, en route to the hospital & the current WB routing (Linden Blvd.) needs to go like, yesterday.....

Checkmate can tell you his reason, but the reasons I even authored the whole B14 to Rockaway Blvd (A) bit, however long ago it was, was large in part, due to the fact that the Q7 does much of nothing for Brooklynites (not even during its GBL days).... Coupled with the fact that the thing (Q7) is rather sluggish for all the Queens riders that need it along Rockaway Blvd. & the B14's tanking at Euclid from the west, only solidified the decision/idea IMO..... When you start getting down around the Pink houses, the thing is an afterthought..... As far service goes, well the B14 (with or without the extension) needs more weekday service to/from Utica av. subway anyway....

Agree with you with not running B83's to Ridgewood... Even w/ the straightening of the thing, I'd still want it to remain that quick link (quote-unquote) to/from B'way Junction... Besides, the B15 needs help & I would use the B20 (with modifications) to do it - one of those modifications being the cutting back of the B20 from Forest (M) & ending it right dead at Myrtle....

I get what he's trying to do with that B20 of sorts; I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad idea (my earlier post should have said "neutral" instead of indifferent).... I just don't think anything has to be done w/ the B13 down there (at all, but especially) to make his B20 more attractive in that part of ENY.... Nothing wrong with both of those routes (current B13, a north-south route & his B20, an east-west route) concurrently serving the Pink Houses...

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3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

When you say nothing along Fountain south of Vandalia, does that include the present-day southbound Q8/B13?

Also, for people in the Pink Houses & Linden Plaza Apartments, the idea was that they would use it to reach the (A)(C) at Euclid. (The riders west of Ashford are those I would expect to ride to the (L) ). If there's a significant number of people riding towards the (J) then a short extension to Fulton Street can be made.

Just saw this & the new post notification didn't pop up.....

Anyway, yup - including the Q8 & the B13.... I would have them all taking Fountain > Vandalia > Erskine > Gateway dr. to the terminal over there at Gateway II....

Also, yes, there's a very significant amount of people taking B13's to Crescent (J) from the south.....

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I’m not so familiar with Brooklyn as I am with Queens but one thing I always wondered is why is the B15 as long as it is? Didn’t the MTA ever think that a route from Woodhull Hospital to JFK is too long of a route? And to make matters worst there is no limited service and one would think that the B15 would be a perfect candidate for it too. I remember when the Q58 got it back in 2010, it was the best thing to happen to that route since the Q58 can stop at just about every stop especially in Corona. So I feel like a Limited B15 could help, but honestly shouldn’t the route just be split in two or at least modified so it’s not as long and unreliable? I feel like the MTA is so fond of its super routes and just about all of them suffer from reliability issues.

I always thought a more suitable location to have a JFK bus in Brooklyn is Broadway Junction. As far as a routing to get to the airport I don’t know what would be the most suitable routing but it most likely traveling down Pennsylvania and Linden Blvd wouldn’t be a bad idea. However I would make it a Limited so it’s not stuck making every stop. 

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11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

While true, I wasn't even thinking about the added distance; I don't care for the branching aspect of it (the B8).... With the real B8, at this point, I'd have it continue along the length of Av B, to Rockaway Pkwy., to Church, to stand (and do away with that 45 degree parking along the Rockaway side of Brookdale in the process)..... The current EB routing (Remsen > Church > E. 98th > Rockaway (av)) is rather pointless.... I'd much rather have buses utilizing Av B. for coverage, en route to the hospital & the current WB routing (Linden Blvd.) needs to go like, yesterday.....

Checkmate can tell you his reason, but the reasons I even authored the whole B14 to Rockaway Blvd (A) bit, however long ago it was, was large in part, due to the fact that the Q7 does much of nothing for Brooklynites (not even during its GBL days).... Coupled with the fact that the thing (Q7) is rather sluggish for all the Queens riders that need it along Rockaway Blvd. & the B14's tanking at Euclid from the west, only solidified the decision/idea IMO..... When you start getting down around the Pink houses, the thing is an afterthought..... As far service goes, well the B14 (with or without the extension) needs more weekday service to/from Utica av. subway anyway....

Agree with you with not running B83's to Ridgewood... Even w/ the straightening of the thing, I'd still want it to remain that quick link (quote-unquote) to/from B'way Junction... Besides, the B15 needs help & I would use the B20 (with modifications) to do it - one of those modifications being the cutting back of the B20 from Forest (M) & ending it right dead at Myrtle....

I get what he's trying to do with that B20 of sorts; I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad idea (my earlier post should have said "neutral" instead of indifferent).... I just don't think anything has to be done w/ the B13 down there (at all, but especially) to make his B20 more attractive in that part of ENY.... Nothing wrong with both of those routes (current B13, a north-south route & his B20, an east-west route) concurrently serving the Pink Houses...

As for the B20.. I agree with you in regards for it to stop ending at Forest Avenue. I'd rather the 20 to end in front of the depot on Fresh Pond Road or even as you indicated- Myrtle-Fresh Pond. However, if the 20 wants a bigger presence in RIdgewood. Have it end with the other conga line of buses at Ridgewood Terminal with the B13, B26, B52, B54, Q54, Q55, Q58. The 20 would be a clear interline for some of these lines. I would also like the 20 to assist the 15 in regards to JFK travel. I've prolly said this in the past but no need for the 20 to end at T-5 (Lefferts Blvd- Air Train better) but it could present another market for those in East New York- Pink houses area and bushwick who want airport service.

Plain in simple.. The 14 looks good on paper. However, when you think reality it won't fly at all. That side of city line is very used to infrequent Q7 and the (A) line which doesn't present a new market for the 14. To me the B12 will always be the true to City Line to.. Liberty & Sheridan

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I've never understood why Transit and many folks are so determined to create/add service from East New York and Spring Creek toward the Rockaway Parkway station and surrounding area. I lived near Flatlands and Pennsylvania for 25 years and most people I knew wanted to go north to the IRT or the IND. It was a great day when the B83 was extended from the old terminal at Pennsylvania and Liberty to Broadway Junction. That's when the B20 traveled along Linden Blvd from Pennsylvania Avenue. The Rockaway Parkway wasn't the preferred destination in those days because most riders would transfer from the Canarsie line at Broadway Junction anyway. Just my observation.  Carry on. 

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2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I've never understood why Transit and many folks are so determined to create/add service from East New York and Spring Creek toward the Rockaway Parkway station and surrounding area. I lived near Flatlands and Pennsylvania for 25 years and most people I knew wanted to go north to the IRT or the IND. It was a great day when the B83 was extended from the old terminal at Pennsylvania and Liberty to Broadway Junction. That's when the B20 traveled along Linden Blvd from Pennsylvania Avenue. The Rockaway Parkway wasn't the preferred destination in those days because most riders would transfer from the Canarsie line at Broadway Junction anyway. Just my observation.  Carry on. 

To me. Rockaway Parkway is NOT the preferred destination for someone that’s traveling b/w ENY, Spring Creek and Starrett City. I’m a former Canarsie resident, now Crown Heights-northside and there are times I do return back to Canarsie. Drive thru Rockaway Parkway and see realistically you cannot add another 2 bus lines to that train station unless you get rid of the bank that’s been standing at that intersection even since I wasn’t even thought about lol. 

If you want today’s B20 and B84 converging into Canarsie. Think again, the market and demographics don’t support it. There’s already 5 lines by default. 1 doesn’t even belong there (B17). However, due to East 80th and the lack of service on the backend. 

Conclusion: New bus lines perhaps needs to be created between Canarsie, ENY, Spring Creek, Starrett City. The current lines right now cannot provide the coverage. Oops I forgot this (MTA) is not in the business of creating new routes. 

In the good words of @Trainmaster5 //Carry on. 

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We already do have some bus routes that connect to (L) trains from East NY, Spring Creek, Starrett City, etc. B6, B82 at Rockaway Pkwy, B15 at New Lots Av, B14 at Sutter Av.

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12 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not so familiar with Brooklyn as I am with Queens but one thing I always wondered is why is the B15 as long as it is? Didn’t the MTA ever think that a route from Woodhull Hospital to JFK is too long of a route? And to make matters worst there is no limited service and one would think that the B15 would be a perfect candidate for it too. I remember when the Q58 got it back in 2010, it was the best thing to happen to that route since the Q58 can stop at just about every stop especially in Corona. So I feel like a Limited B15 could help, but honestly shouldn’t the route just be split in two or at least modified so it’s not as long and unreliable? I feel like the MTA is so fond of its super routes and just about all of them suffer from reliability issues.

I always thought a more suitable location to have a JFK bus in Brooklyn is Broadway Junction. As far as a routing to get to the airport I don’t know what would be the most suitable routing but it most likely traveling down Pennsylvania and Linden Blvd wouldn’t be a bad idea. However I would make it a Limited so it’s not stuck making every stop. 

IMO, the problem has less to do with a need of a split of the B15 & more to do with the fact that there are simply too many B15 trips running from Woodhull.... It's not a route where you can definitively claim that it's 2 routes meshed into one.... I mean, I can understand the Woodhull - Drew/Linden trips, but why do all the JFK trips have to run out of Woodhull.... The demand is clearly more for JFK & ENY on that route than it is for service b/w Fulton & Woodhull.... What I'm getting at is, the B15 needs a short turn terminal somewhere, mid-route, from the north (meaning, towards JFK).....

With what you bring up in that last paragraph though, I would have the B20 do something similar (except it wouldn't be, or have, a limited)...
The entire route would consist of the current B20 b/w Myrtle & New Lots (av) > left on New Lots av > right on Ashford > left on Linden > straight along Linden, to take current B15 routing to Lefferts AIRTrain, to stand...

If you were to have a route start at Broadway Junction towards JFK however, LTD service would not be necessary....

10 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

....Plain in simple.. The 14 looks good on paper. However, when you think reality it won't fly at all. That side of city line is very used to infrequent Q7 and the (A) line which doesn't present a new market for the 14. To me the B12 will always be the true to City Line to.. Liberty & Sheridan

Perhaps, but the fact of the matter is that the old Liberty av portion of the B12 carried far too much air over the years & it's a wonder that it lasted as long as it did... I'll go as far as to say that an extended B14 to Cross Bay/Liberty (from Euclid av subway) would amass more riders than the B12 ever did on average past Alabama. av subway - which is quite pathetic, being that the Brooklyn part of the Q7 doesn't garner much of any riders either.....

Look at how many times the B14 has changed terminals in ENY & the result has remained the same (in terms of general usage) down around the Pink/Cypress houses, for the most part.... The route isn't really sought after down there... If not for sending it over the Q7 to Cross Bay/Liberty, then the thing (B14) should run up a few blocks to Euclid subway to terminate, because Euclid/Sutter is where that route tanks & most of those ppl disembarking are walking up towards the subway.....

Q7 riders from the east virtually (in a lot of cases, literally) all tank out at Rockaway Blvd. subway.... Much as you don't agree (and you don't have to) with running B14's to Cross Bay, I don't agree with keeping Q7's in Brooklyn - and at the same time, don't believe that pocket in question should be left with nothing.....

I wouldn't exactly say that an extension of sorts wouldn't present a new market.... The Q7 is an afterthought for Brooklynites because it doesn't go far enough into Brooklyn (the B14 does just that) & it doesn't serve the part of Queens enough Brooklynites are really seeking, on top of it..... Queens patrons can argue the exact same point on the opposite end of the spectrum/from their perspective as it pertains to the Q7.....

Again, you don't have to agree - but you can not honestly sell me demand for the B12 over the B14 in City Line though, fam.... Lol...

5 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I've never understood why Transit and many folks are so determined to create/add service from East New York and Spring Creek toward the Rockaway Parkway station and surrounding area. I lived near Flatlands and Pennsylvania for 25 years and most people I knew wanted to go north to the IRT or the IND. It was a great day when the B83 was extended from the old terminal at Pennsylvania and Liberty to Broadway Junction. That's when the B20 traveled along Linden Blvd from Pennsylvania Avenue. The Rockaway Parkway wasn't the preferred destination in those days because most riders would transfer from the Canarsie line at Broadway Junction anyway. Just my observation.  Carry on. 

I wouldn't necessarily involve myself with it, but the main reason more often than not, is to fill a service gap between the 2 (popular) areas.... Quite sure you've seen people bring up running B6's or B82's to Gateway Mall... I mean, I can understand singularly wanting to connect Canarsie (L) & Gateway mall (hell, look at how long it took the MTA to connect Gateway Mall with a whole entire section of Brooklyn with the B83 extension).... Getting to the B13 is a PITA for far too many Brooklynites as it is.

I was actually shocked when the MTA decided to run Q8's down there... Totally came out of left field...

Edited by B35 via Church

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3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

To me. Rockaway Parkway is NOT the preferred destination for someone that’s traveling b/w ENY, Spring Creek and Starrett City. I’m a former Canarsie resident, now Crown Heights-northside and there are times I do return back to Canarsie. Drive thru Rockaway Parkway and see realistically you cannot add another 2 bus lines to that train station unless you get rid of the bank that’s been standing at that intersection even since I wasn’t even thought about lol.

That, or the municipal lot (which I'm surprised hasn't been turned into "affordable housing" yet).... Or a mall, like the one that used to exist over by the Junction....

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15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

That, or the municipal lot (which I'm surprised hasn't been turned into "affordable housing" yet).... Or a mall, like the one that used to exist over by the Junction....

Municipal lot and the now- capital one bank. Oh, that municipal lot has its usage. So that’s not going down anytime soon unless (MTA) real estate is smart enough to purchase the property and turn it to a Williamsburg Bridge type terminal and have buses terminate at Rock Parkway. 

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13 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Municipal lot and the now- capital one bank. Oh, that municipal lot has its usage. So that’s not going down anytime soon unless (MTA) real estate is smart enough to purchase the property and turn it to a Williamsburg Bridge type terminal and have buses terminate at Rock Parkway. 

Canarsie patrons treat that subway station like it's a RR station, (not to mention there are a number of 2 car households in that neighborhood), so it's not surprising to see a lot of people P&R-ing there.... Good to hear though that it's still alive & kicking though (instead of the makeshift auto-shop, baseball/hockey field, x-games practice park, after-school fight meet up session area, and god knows what else that aforementioned one at the Junction was used as, more than a parking lot for actual commuters (or those that locally shopped along Flatbush in that immediate vicinity)....

But yeah, the ultimate point to be made here is, most definitely, that immediate area (Canarsie (L)) cannot support anymore bus routes terminating over there..... Hell, look at what had to be done to make things easier just for buses to get around (referring to the bi-directionalization of Glenwood rd).... That's the kind of collaboration that's needed between the DOT & the MTA to keep buses moving in this city...

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I'm not super familiar with Brooklyn routes, especially the two lines that I'm about to talk about, but would re-routing the B70 via the B37 north of 36th Street work?

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11 minutes ago, NBTA said:

I'm not super familiar with Brooklyn routes, especially the two lines that I'm about to talk about, but would re-routing the B70 via the B37 north of 36th Street work?

That could work as well. However, at this point, you might as well combine it with the B67 on 7th Avenue instead, providing a third North-South service through that part of Brooklyn. You would have to beef up B69 bus service to compensate.

Also, I’m not sure if this was mentioned, but this is a reminder that the Brooklyn Bus Redesign has just commenced 5 days ago. Open houses will be held in Late October and early November, with pop up events occurring as we speak.

Link: https://new.mta.info/brooklynbusredesign

The time to express your bus restructuring ideas to the (MTA) is now. 

Edited by JeremiahC99

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