Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Canarsie patrons treat that subway station like it's a RR station, (not to mention there are a number of 2 car households in that neighborhood), so it's not surprising to see a lot of people P&R-ing there.... Good to hear though that it's still alive & kicking though (instead of the makeshift auto-shop, baseball/hockey field, x-games practice park, after-school fight meet up session area, and god knows what else that aforementioned one at the Junction was used as, more than a parking lot for actual commuters (or those that locally shopped along Flatbush in that immediate vicinity)....

But yeah, the ultimate point to be made here is, most definitely, that immediate area (Canarsie ) cannot support anymore bus routes terminating over there..... Hell, look at what had to be done to make things easier just for buses to get around (referring to the bi-directionalization of Glenwood rd).... That's the kind of collaboration that's needed between the DOT & the MTA to keep buses moving in this city...

I fully agree with this last statement. We need that more with our partners to get this city moving. 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

I'm not super familiar with Brooklyn routes, especially the two lines that I'm about to talk about, but would re-routing the B70 via the B37 north of 36th Street work?

For what purpose? To discontinue the B37 or to add extra service along 3rd av?

[NBTA]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

For what purpose? To discontinue the B37 or to add extra service along 3rd av?

Discontinue the B37 north of 36th Street.

[B39]

On 10/6/2019 at 5:40 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

ENY-area restructuring:

B83: Rerouted to operate straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. On northern end, alternate buses extended up to Myrtle/Summerfield to cover northern section of present-day B20.

B84: Rerouted to operate from Broadway Junction to Brooklyn Developmental Center via Pennsylvania Avenue-New Lots Avenue-Van Siclen Avenue-Flatlands Avenue-Elton Street-Vandalia Avenue-Erskine Street-Seaview Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B20: Restructured to operate from Euclid Avenue  to Canarsie/Rockaway Parkway  via Euclid Avenue-Sutter Avenue-Eldert Lane-Stanley Avenue-East 108th Street-Glenwood Road. This would cover the eastern part of the B60, which would be truncated to Rockaway Parkway.

Q8: Westbound buses take Pitkin Avenue-Fountain Avenue

B13: Buses take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent

B14 extended to Rockaway Blvd station. Q7 truncated to Rockaway Blvd  station.

B8 branch to Rockaway Parkway  station via Remsen Avenue-Avenue D-Rockaway Parkway.

I think the B17 to the Paerdegats should become a shuttle to the station. The question is, with all the routes terminating there (B8 branch, B20, B42, B60, Paerdegat shuttle), should anything be through-routed? Maybe the B20 with the Paerdegat shuttle.

 

I agree with some of the things you proposed the b13: should not divert around the pink houses it should run straight on crescent st 

B83: i agree with having it run on Pennsylvania ave full length but I think the that instead of going to  summerfield and myrtle. I think it should switch ending points with  the Q24 route to bushwick and the Q24 should be cut back to broadway junction It doesnt make sesne that the Q24 covers bushwick and it traveling all the way from jamaica so far comparing to the B83 that's already in brooklyn and the full route is 43mins

 

B14 : rockaway blvd station in ozone park is not a bad I would stay ozone park or to the casino via pitkin ave since there is  only 1 bus that goes there which is the Q37 but either end point would be good.

 

B:84 I argee

B:8 I agree

 

 

[B35 via Church]

10 minutes ago, NBTA said:

Discontinue the B37 north of 36th Street.

Doesn't make sense to have reverted the B37, only to later have it only running between Shore rd. & 3rd/36th (or to 36th st subway), well period - including for the sake of running the B70 to Atlantic... The B70's runtime is more or less on par with that of the B37 during peak times, even though it travels like 1/2 of its distance... Ever since the route's been reverted, there's been more usage on the northern portion of the B37 route (say, from the Prospect Expwy. and points north)...

Such a move would loom counterproductive for both routes....

8 minutes ago, B39 said:

....the b13: should not divert around the pink houses it should run straight on crescent st 

That immediate area is too much of a ridership generator to have buses bypassing it.

[NBTA]

Just now, B35 via Church said:

Doesn't make sense to have reverted the B37, only to later have it only running between Shore rd. & 3rd/36th (or to 36th st subway), well period - including for the sake of running the B70 to Atlantic... The B70's runtime is more or less on par with that of the B37 during peak times, even though it travels like 1/2 of its distance... Ever since the route's been reverted, there's been more usage on the northern portion of the B37 route (say, from the Prospect Expwy. and points north)...

Such a move would loom counterproductive for both routes....

Thanks for the clarification, once again, I'm not a Brooklyn rider as much as I am a Bronx rider.

[Around the Horn]

Since we're talking about the B37 I've got a rather outside the box idea:

Extend the B2 to Bay Ridge Shore Road via 65th Street, 13th Av and Bay Ridge Av (the school trippers from 12th/80th to Shore Road would remain and run as B2s)

Reroute the B16 via Fort Hamilton Parkway

Reroute the B64 from Bath & 14th Avenues via Cropsey Av, 7th Av, 92nd St, 4th Av, Shore Road and then up 3rd Avenue terminating at NYU Langone in Sunset Park with the B11

Discontinue the B37

Create a new route on 13th-14th Avenues covering the former B16 and B64 portions (I haven't really thought about endpoints for it yet)

[JeremiahC99]

8 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Since we're talking about the B37 I've got a rather outside the box idea:

Extend the B2 to Bay Ridge Shore Road via 65th Street, 13th Av and Bay Ridge Av (the school trippers from 12th/80th to Shore Road would remain and run as B2s)

Reroute the B16 via Fort Hamilton Parkway

Reroute the B64 from Bath & 14th Avenues via Cropsey Av, 7th Av, 92nd St, 4th Av, Shore Road and then up 3rd Avenue terminating at NYU Langone in Sunset Park with the B11

Discontinue the B37

Create a new route on 13th-14th Avenues covering the former B16 and B64 portions (I haven't really thought about endpoints for it yet)

With the exception of the B64 going up Shore Road, these ideas were actually bought up a couple of times by both BrooklynBus and myself, and we even discussed one of them heavily (the B2 extension) early this year. They are all still very good. For the 13th-14th Avenue routes, for the endpoints, I would have one of them be at 4th Avenue and 86th Street to preserve a direct ride to the 86th Street  station for upper 13th Avenue customers.

Speaking of preserving service, last we argued about the service on Bay Ridge Avenue, one of your concerns was a lack of service to Coney Island from the Bay Ridge Avenue corridor. Looking back at it, I do feel guilty of not offering an alternative to the B64. However, I have come up with a new route to replace B64 service to Coney Island.

The new would would supplement B2 and B9 service on Bay Ridge Avenue and be called the B72. The B72 would start at Bay Ridge-Shore Road, then run along Bay Ridge Avenue to 4th Avenue, where the B9 would split off as it would do today. At this point, the bus route would make limited stops. It would then follow the B2 route, running along Bay Ridge Avenue, 13th Avenue, and 65th Street to Bay Pkwy, stopping at major transfer points (8th Avenue, Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, etc.) At Bay Pkwy, local service would resume the B72 would then run along West 6th Street to 86th Street, then vía 86th, Shell Road, Neptune Avenue, and Stillwell Avenue to the Mermaid Avenue loop at Coney Island. This route would increase service along 65th Street while allowing for Coney Island access for those who still need it. It would also provide an alternative to notoriously inaccessible subway stations in Gravesend (between Church Avenue and Coney Island, the  has ZERO stations with access for those in wheelchairs. How they were renovated with no elevators is beyond me).

As for frequency, I do recommend running the routes at 6-8 minute frequencies (at most) to garner ridership.

Finally, for the B37, I would keep the portion between 53rd Street and Atlantic Avenue for local service in Gowanus alongside the Limited stop B103 LTD.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Since we're talking about the B37 I've got a rather outside the box idea:

Extend the B2 to Bay Ridge Shore Road via 65th Street, 13th Av and Bay Ridge Av (the school trippers from 12th/80th to Shore Road would remain and run as B2s)

Reroute the B16 via Fort Hamilton Parkway

Reroute the B64 from Bath & 14th Avenues via Cropsey Av, 7th Av, 92nd St, 4th Av, Shore Road and then up 3rd Avenue terminating at NYU Langone in Sunset Park with the B11

Discontinue the B37

Create a new route on 13th-14th Avenues covering the former B16 and B64 portions (I haven't really thought about endpoints for it yet)

Yeah, the B64 could use another ridership gen'.... With that said, while connecting more people from South Brooklyn directly to Lutheran NYU Langone by itself is noble, I wouldn't concurrently discontinue the B37 to have some meandrous route of sorts, only serve a portion of 3rd av on up to the 50's.... To accomplish what you're trying to with that, I'd just maintain the B37, revert the pre-2010 B64 pattern along 86th, to then run the thing up 4th & have it shoot across some side street{s} to get to the hospital.....

Also, again, usage along 3rd av in the Gowanus/Boerum Hill sections have grown; I wouldn't leave it with just the (NB) B103.....

[P3F]

Does the B1 get a lot of through ridership between non-adjacent neighborhoods? If it does, would a B1 LTD help the route run better?

Here's a possible stop list for a limited:

Oriental/Mackenzie

Oriental/Falmouth

Oriental/West End

BB Av/CI Av

BB Av/Ocean Pkwy

*turns right on W5, left on Neptune, right on Shell* (stops at Neptune/W6)

86/McDonald

86/W8

86/Stillwell

86/25 Av

86/Bay Pkwy

86/20 Av

86/18 Av

86/14 Av

86/7 Av

and all local stops to the terminal at 87/4 Av.

One of the flaws with this routing is that it entirely bypasses the hospital, but I honestly feel like it would still have enough service via the B1 local, B4, and B36.

This isn't meant to be a super serious proposal; I was just thinking of how getting between Bay Ridge and Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay could be made a bit less tedious.

[Interested Rider]

The problem with the B/1 is not the hospital, it is both the Brighton Beach Avenue and the 86th Street Elevated Structures. Coney Island Hospital is a major traffic generator and the bus could be on time for most of the route but once it goes under the elevated structures especially along 86th Street, the schedule goes out the window. 

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, P3F said:

Does the B1 get a lot of through ridership between non-adjacent neighborhoods? If it does, would a B1 LTD help the route run better?

 

....I was just thinking of how getting between Bay Ridge and Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay could be made a bit less tedious.

The B1 crawls, due to the slow moving single-file traffic under the  & on top of it, high passenger activity (as in, people either boarding and/or getting off) at almost every stop between the  & 18th av.... Distance ridership on the route, yeah, plenty of it - people riding from as far out as Brighton Beach & Gravesend to 5th or 4th av. in Bay ridge isn't all that uncommon on the thing....  Bensonhurst - Bay Ridge usage is the norm....

As was already stated, CIH doesn't really put a damper on the B1's runtime (although buses, for whatever the reason, crawl along Ocean Pkwy. itself), but having a B1 LTD follow the B68 from CI av to Shell, etc. would actually give it a new riderbase.... Reason ridership tends to be on the higher end with the current B1 at CIH, is due to service on the B4 being, well, shit .... and the fact that the B1 bus stops (both directions) at Av. X are more rider-friendly over that of the B4....

As far as your LTD stop list (in regards to your talking point/proposed route), well, the only stop I'd have it making during its stint under the  is at Bay Pkwy.... I personally would not bother with 20th & the connection for the B3 can be made at Stillwell.... I don't think you need LTD stops at 25th & at Stillwell....

2 hours ago, Interested Rider said:

The problem with the B/1 is not the hospital, it is both the Brighton Beach Avenue and the 86th Street Elevated Structures. Coney Island Hospital is a major traffic generator and the bus could be on time for most of the route but once it goes under the elevated structures especially along 86th Street, the schedule goes out the window. 

Sure it's nothing to write home about, but I don't find the stint under the  to be that bad.... It's that one under the  that's the pits.

Edited October 14, 2019 by B35 via Church

[P3F]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The B1 crawls, due to the slow moving single-file traffic under the  & on top of it, high passenger activity (as in, people either boarding and/or getting off) at almost every stop between the  & 18th av.... Distance ridership on the route, yeah, plenty of it - people riding from as far out as Brighton Beach & Gravesend to 5th or 4th av. in Bay ridge isn't all that uncommon on the thing....  Bensonhurst - Bay Ridge usage is the norm....

As was already stated, CIH doesn't really put a damper on the B1's runtime (although buses, for whatever the reason, crawl along Ocean Pkwy. itself), but having a B1 LTD follow the B68 from CI av to Shell, etc. would actually give it a new riderbase.... Reason ridership tends to be on the higher end with the current B1 at CIH, is due to service on the B4 being, well, shit .... and the fact that the B1 bus stops (both directions) at Av. X are more rider-friendly over that of the B4....

As far as your LTD stop list (in regards to your talking point/proposed route), well, the only stop I'd have it making during its stint under the  is at Bay Pkwy.... I personally would not bother with 20th & the connection for the B3 can be made at Stillwell.... I don't think you need LTD stops at 25th & at Stillwell....

Regarding the crawling under the -- maybe the DOT could make up a setup with small bus lanes next to the curb at each bus stop, so the buses have their own separate area. (Basically repurposing the areas that are currently pedestrian-only zones). Then they can have a special traffic signal for those lanes, allowing the bus to pull out a few seconds before general traffic moves. Of course, this is all moot if the bus can't clear the El's columns to change lanes right before the bus stop.

I rode the B1 recently and felt that the entire Ocean Parkway-Avenue X segment was kind of a drag, which is why I suggested it follows the B68 till Shell Road. In my experience, Shell Road moves quickly, as it's a wide road with not too much traffic. At Avenue X, the southbound limited could stop with the B4, but the northbound B4 stop is kind of in an awful place so a bit more effort would be required in that direction.

In terms of choosing between 25th and Stillwell, I'd personally lean towards 25th, as it gives patrons easier early access to the going northbound.

20th indeed doesn't need to be a stop. I originally suggested it due to the station, but that's really not a great reason since there's subway connections at 18th, Bay Pkwy, and 25th.

[WhattheF]

Real talk question but why is there not a bus route that travels from the start of Neptune Avenue in Coney Island, then along Emmons Avenue toward Knapp Street, then up Knapp Street to Kings Plaza? The B4 stops short and with this sort of route you would give Coney Island/Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay riders a direct route to this mall, and provide some sort of bus service on Knapp (which is such a pain to get to).

The B4 can instead continue straight down Avenue Z instead of doing whatever nonsense it currently does, and this route could replace service along Neptune.

Something like this:

Edited November 7, 2019 by WhattheF

[Lex]

39 minutes ago, WhattheF said:

Real talk question but why is there not a bus route that travels from the start of Neptune Avenue in Coney Island, then along Emmons Avenue toward Knapp Street, then up Knapp Street to Kings Plaza? The B4 stops short and with this sort of route you would give Coney Island/Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay riders a direct route to this mall, and provide some sort of bus service on Knapp (which is such a pain to get to).

The B4 can instead continue straight down Avenue Z instead of doing whatever nonsense it currently does, and this route could replace service along Neptune.

Something like this:

Hi, you must (somehow) be new.

Neither sending the B4 to Kings Plaza nor having anything run on Knapp Street beyond what the B4 currently handles is sustainable. The demand for a bus between certain parts of Sheepshead Bay and Kings Plaza simply doesn't exist to the degree of warranting a direct route (using anything that stops at Avenue U/25th Avenue and catching the B3 is more than enough), and much of Knapp Street is either in the vicinity of Gerritsen Avenue or a plot of what is effectively nothing. The only things of note are already served by the B4 and B44.

[JeremiahC99]

53 minutes ago, WhattheF said:

Real talk question but why is there not a bus route that travels from the start of Neptune Avenue in Coney Island, then along Emmons Avenue toward Knapp Street, then up Knapp Street to Kings Plaza? The B4 stops short and with this sort of route you would give Coney Island/Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay riders a direct route to this mall, and provide some sort of bus service on Knapp (which is such a pain to get to).

The B4 can instead continue straight down Avenue Z instead of doing whatever nonsense it currently does, and this route could replace service along Neptune.

Something like this:

The B74 and B36 are more than enough for service west of Stillwell. I would suggest making the B74 bus route a fare free route. Almost everyone on the B74 are heading to the subway anyway, picking up on every stop along the way until West 20th, so might as well waive the fare for better ridership.

As for the rest of the route, I would suggest leaving the B4 as it is in Brighton Beach to slow for better service to Coney Island Hospital. To provide better crosstown service, I would have a new route start at Coney Island, then serve a portion of Shell Road without bus service to Avenue Z. The route would then travel on Avenue Z to Sheepshead Bay station, where the B4 would terminate. Past the stop, the new route would pick up the former B4 stops to Knapp Street, and travel on Knapp Street and Avenue U to the Kings Plaza. To garner demand, the bus route would operate every 8 minutes or better. Initial spam of service would be from 5:00 AM to 1:00 AM every day, with overnight service added on a 20-minute headway if demand picks up. I would also recommend terminating the B44 at Emmons Avenue and Nostrand Avenue to make the new route even more attractive. I believe I did address this at the network redesign open house.

Also, feel free to express your ideas at the upcoming open houses. The more ideas they receive, the better.

Edited November 7, 2019 by JeremiahC99

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, WhattheF said:

Real talk question but why is there not a bus route that travels from the start of Neptune Avenue in Coney Island, then along Emmons Avenue toward Knapp Street, then up Knapp Street to Kings Plaza?.......

• Why should a Neptune av. route run to Kings Plaza specifically....
• Why should there be a Neptune av route....
• Why should it run up Knapp st.....
• Why should it be the B4....

[Future ENY OP]

9 hours ago, WhattheF said:

Real talk question but why is there not a bus route that travels from the start of Neptune Avenue in Coney Island, then along Emmons Avenue toward Knapp Street, then up Knapp Street to Kings Plaza? The B4 stops short and with this sort of route you would give Coney Island/Brighton Beach/Sheepshead Bay riders a direct route to this mall, and provide some sort of bus service on Knapp (which is such a pain to get to).

The B4 can instead continue straight down Avenue Z instead of doing whatever nonsense it currently does, and this route could replace service along Neptune.

Something like this:

I wanted to get everyone else’s take first before I put my 2 cents into this conversation. But, Coney Island to Kings Plaza. Not going to happen in a million years. 

The B36 came very close to that reality and plus there is NO room to add any additional lines at KP. In addition Kings Plaza is NOT a major destination that people go to or even think about.  Sorry 😐 but not sorry. 

[Future ENY OP]

39 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

• Why should a Neptune av. route run to Kings Plaza specifically....
• Why should there be a Neptune av route....
• Why should it run up Knapp st.....
• Why should it be the B4....

I’m confused 🤷🏽‍♂️ with that. Neptune Avenue just only needs a handful of stops within Coney Island and plus KP is not a destination. Now I could understand if it was owned by Simon than there is a conversation to be made.

Sometimes I gotta remind myself that people come with the weirdest ideas and think the  will abide with this. In the good words of @Trainmaster5  #carryon.  

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’m confused 🤷🏽‍♂️ with that. Neptune Avenue just only needs a handful of stops within Coney Island and plus KP is not a destination. Now I could understand if it was owned by Simon than there is a conversation to be made.

Sometimes I gotta remind myself that people come with the weirdest ideas and think the  will abide with this. In the good words of @Trainmaster5  #carryon.  

I can't concur with a Neptune av/Emmons av route of any sort.... That Alon Levy dude that a couple of people on this forum have a certain respect for, basically suggested an extended B74 to head up stillwell, and then clear across Neptune/Emmons to have it end at Knapp, in his rendition of a Brooklyn bus redesign.....

A Neptune av route by itself, doesn't solve much of anything for South Brooklynites.... Take a good look at how the B68's used west of Brighton Beach subway.... Never-mind how the B4's used between Knapp & Ocean Pkwy if we exclude the patronage (which is due to a diversion) for Sheepshead Bay subway!

A Neptune - Knapp route would carry a shit ton of air.

[Future ENY OP]

33 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I can't concur with a Neptune av/Emmons av route of any sort.... That Alon Levy dude that a couple of people on this forum have a certain respect for, basically suggested an extended B74 to head up stillwell, and then clear across Neptune/Emmons to have it end at Knapp, in his rendition of a Brooklyn bus redesign.....

A Neptune av route by itself, doesn't solve much of anything for South Brooklynites.... Take a good look at how the B68's used west of Brighton Beach subway.... Never-mind how the B4's used between Knapp & Ocean Pkwy if we exclude the patronage (which is due to a diversion) for Sheepshead Bay subway!

A Neptune - Knapp route would carry a shit ton of air.

My rationale is that people think Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island are premier destinations and they are definitely not. Both need very big vitalizations first before considered destinations again.  Now, as far as a Neptune to Sheepshead Bay or let alone Kings Plaza for some the ridership would decrease in a heartbeat. Not even Manhattan Beach patronage would want this. 

Now, if i were to suggest a Neptune Avenue to Sheepshead Bay Road  or 86th Street  via B74. It could possibly work. However, I’m not 100% sure how Seagate patrons would feel of a B74 heading to Sheepshead Bay Road or 86th and 25th Avenue   versus Stillwell Avenue   

[EastFlatbushLarry]

33 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

My rationale is that people think Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island are premier destinations and they are definitely not. Both need very big vitalizations first before considered destinations again.  Now, as far as a Neptune to Sheepshead Bay or let alone Kings Plaza for some the ridership would decrease in a heartbeat. Not even Manhattan Beach patronage would want this. 

Now, if i were to suggest a Neptune Avenue to Sheepshead Bay Road  or 86th Street  via B74. It could possibly work. However, I’m not 100% sure how Seagate patrons would feel of a B74 heading to Sheepshead Bay Road or 86th and 25th Avenue   versus Stillwell Avenue   

i can't understand the recent "obsession" with attempts to connect kings plaza to Brighton or Manhattan beach. the eastern Europeans in those areas look down on kings plaza (and a certain demographic of individuals that frequent kp) so there's absolutely no desire (or demand) to take mass transit to that mall. i really believe people just look at maps & attempt to design lines because it would look "cool" to have a bus line run on such and such street.

[Future ENY OP]

5 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i can't understand the recent "obsession" with attempts to connect kings plaza to Brighton or Manhattan beach. the eastern Europeans in those areas look down on kings plaza (and a certain demographic of individuals that frequent kp) so there's absolutely no desire (or demand) to take mass transit to that mall. i really believe people just look at maps & attempt to design lines because it would look "cool" to have a bus line run on such and such street.

Those eastern euros shop in Manhattan, Harriman, New York and within their own community cluster. 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

My rationale is that people think Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island are premier destinations and they are definitely not.....

Either that, and/or simply looking at the map & trying to piece together something that doesn't warrant it.

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Now, if i were to suggest a Neptune Avenue to Sheepshead Bay Road  or 86th Street  via B74. It could possibly work.

However, I’m not 100% sure how Seagate patrons would feel of a B74 heading to Sheepshead Bay Road or 86th and 25th Avenue   versus Stillwell Avenue   

The B74 is prominent in Coney Island because the B36 runs like shit... Opting to run the B74 to [Sheepshead Bay ] would be an exercise in redundancy & running the B74 to 86th st I'm not too sure there'd be any type of demand for; folks would just make their way to the B1 somehow & have it be called a day....

18 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i can't understand the recent "obsession" with attempts to connect kings plaza to Brighton or Manhattan beach. the eastern Europeans in those areas look down on kings plaza (and a certain demographic of individuals that frequent kp) so there's absolutely no desire (or demand) to take mass transit to that mall. i really believe people just look at maps & attempt to design lines because it would look "cool" to have a bus line run on such and such street.

They're old obsessions rearing its ugly head & IDK why such is the case as of late either.....

You're not wrong regarding the demographics, but Kings Plaza as a major shopping destination from, anywhere here in Brooklyn really, is just not that deal anymore.... You could argue that shopping malls, period, have lost their luster (which is a completely different topic)......

11 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Those eastern euros shop in Manhattan, Harriman, New York and within their own community cluster. 

Harriman as in Woodbury Common?

LOL, last time I went there a couple months ago, that place was pretty dead..... Mad I took a drive up there with my mom & siblings..... I think Palisades, Nanuet, and that whole shopping area along 59) siphoned folks away from heading into Orange county to shop....

Edited November 7, 2019 by B35 via Church
combination of posts.....

[Future ENY OP]

41 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Harriman as in Woodbury Common?

LOL, last time I went there a couple months ago, that place was pretty dead..... Mad I took a drive up there with my mom & siblings..... I think Palisades, Nanuet, and that whole shopping area along 59) siphoned folks away from heading into Orange county to shop....

Correct on the first sentence 

2nd. Took a drive down along car row Rt 304- New City and I will agree with you. 59 is becoming more of a better shopping area vs Orange County. The new shops along 59-304 viaduct are looking good and the area has re-vitalized. 

Back to our subject in hand: The only reason i eluded the 74 to run to Sheepshead Bay Road would only provide additional coverage to Neptune Ave on both ends of the spectrum Sheepshead-Coney Isl- Seagate.  Should it help the B36 and B4. Yes, However, during AM/PM rush only. All other times via Mermaid on Shuttle.  

Edited November 7, 2019 by Future ENY OP