Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[B35 via Church]

18 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Back to our subject in hand: The only reason i eluded the 74 to run to Sheepshead Bay Road would only provide additional coverage to Neptune Ave on both ends of the spectrum Sheepshead-Coney Isl- Seagate.  Should it help the B36 and B4. Yes, However, during AM/PM rush only. All other times via Mermaid on Shuttle.  

The last thing Neptune needs though, is a supplement.....

Too many people on the Brighton Beach side of Neptune are walking due south to the subway (Brighton Beach or Ocean Pkwy, depending on proximity)... I don't get the sense that if service on the B4 were to increase, or have another layer of service appended to it, that there would be much of anymore usage on it in that neighborhood (for either direction).....

The vast majority, literally almost everybody that currently uses the B74, bolt for Stillwell subway.... Not sure where any latent ridership would emanate from elsewhere (you're not going to really get anyone xferring from off the B1 or B68), so as I see it, the only real sect of riders left that you could attract with a B74 to Sheepshead subway, are of those folks that travel between the Trump Village apts. & Sheepshead proper on the B36, or anyone through-riding on the B36 past Stillwell/Surf from the west (of which don't want/need access to CIH) that's seeking Sheepshead..... Even though it would be more direct than the B36, I don't think that amount of people is worth marring the B74......

[Future ENY OP]

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The last thing Neptune needs though, is a supplement.....

Too many people on the Brighton Beach side of Neptune are walking due south to the subway (Brighton Beach or Ocean Pkwy, depending on proximity)... I don't get the sense that if service on the B4 were to increase, or have another layer of service appended to it, that there would be much of anymore usage on it in that neighborhood (for either direction).....

The vast majority, literally almost everybody that currently uses the B74, bolt for Stillwell subway.... Not sure where any latent ridership would emanate from elsewhere (you're not going to really get anyone xferring from off the B1 or B68), so as I see it, the only real sect of riders left that you could attract with a B74 to Sheepshead subway, are of those folks that travel between the Trump Village apts. & Sheepshead proper on the B36, or anyone through-riding on the B36 past Stillwell/Surf from the west (of which don't want/need access to CIH) that's seeking Sheepshead..... Even though it would be more direct than the B36, I don't think that amount of people is worth marring the B74......

I agree on this.

But others would look at this post and say 74 needs to be extended further carrying no air..

By giving the 74 extension to Sheepshead Bay Road (I’m being generous on this and for the least this would be rush hours only) 

 

[Interested Rider]

Let me add my two cents worth as I rode both the B/4, B/36 and the B/21 before the 1978 changes so I can speak about how these routes actually served the area at that time. I spoke at the meeting in July 1978 at the church in Gravesend on this subject. 

Many of you know me as a critic of Brooklyn Bus but the way he reconfigured the routes in that part of  Brooklyn was the best thing that happened to the community and should remain as is. When I read or hear about the ideas to make the B/4 a straight route on Neptune and Emmons, I say forget it as it the Sheepshead Bay  Station that generates the additional passengers for the B/4 and without it, you might as well terminate the route at Ocean Avenue. By taking away the routing to the station, you have just made the many cabs that wait at the station a lot richer as B/4 pasengers headed east cannot take the B/36 as for there is a barrier that prevents access from Avenue Z and it called the Belt Parkway,

Yes! The B/36 has problems as there are many locations on the route where people forget about the traffic rules and thus the route runs into problems which is the reason that the route does not run very well. I have taken the same bus at the same time on different days and the traffic levels and the passengers could vary considerably. Avenue  Z has truck traffic and since they cannot park some of them would rather do their deliveries from the street thus blocking the one lane available for traffic and of course, it has the double parked school buses at East 27th Street or the parents waiting to pick up their kids at East 19th Street. All you need is something to happen on Ocean Parkway at the Belt Parkway amd the route is DOA. In my opinion what would benefit the B/36 service is regular coverage of this portion of the route by the ticketrons.

I do not remember how many times  I have posted on this forum  that the B/4 route should  not be extended up  Knapp Street  over the years as it would carry air as there is virtually nothing there. What is really bothering me here is two things with first the push to straighten out the routes and the second is the 902 feet between stops. As i stated with the B/4, keep it the way it is for the reasons that I have listed. It is the push to eliminate stops that concerns me more as I am worried that instead of having intermediate stops between the Avenues such as between Ocean and Bedford and Nostrand Avenues, buses will stop at the Avenues only based on the 902 feet standard. 

[B35 via Church]

28 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I agree on this.

But others would look at this post and say (the) 74 needs to be extended further carrying no air..

By giving the 74 extension to Sheepshead Bay Road (I’m being generous on this and for the least this would be rush hours only)

...and to those people (that don't know any better), I would revert back to the original, general stance of the B74 not needing any extension at all.
(there wouldn't be any carrying of air to worry about)

3 minutes ago, Interested Rider said:

Let me add my two cents worth as I rode both the B/4, B/36 and the B/21 before the 1978 changes so I can speak about how these routes actually served the area at that time. I spoke at the meeting in July 1978 at the church in Gravesend on this subject. 

Many of you know me as a critic of Brooklyn Bus but the way he reconfigured the routes in that part of  Brooklyn was the best thing that happened to the community and should remain as is. When I read or hear about the ideas to make the B/4 a straight route on Neptune and Emmons, I say forget it as it the Sheepshead Bay  Station that generates the additional passengers for the B/4 and without it, you might as well terminate the route at Ocean Avenue. By taking away the routing to the station, you have just made the many cabs that wait at the station a lot richer as B/4 pasengers headed east cannot take the B/36 as for there is a barrier that prevents access from Avenue Z and it called the Belt Parkway,

Yes! The B/36 has problems as there are many locations on the route where people forget about the traffic rules and thus the route runs into problems which is the reason that the route does not run very well. I have taken the same bus at the same time on different days and the traffic levels and the passengers could vary considerably. Avenue  Z has truck traffic and since they cannot park some of them would rather do their deliveries from the street thus blocking the one lane available for traffic and of course, it has the double parked school buses at East 27th Street or the parents waiting to pick up their kids at East 19th Street. All you need is something to happen on Ocean Parkway at the Belt Parkway amd the route is DOA. In my opinion what would benefit the B/36 service is regular coverage of this portion of the route by the ticketrons.

I do not remember how many times  I have posted on this forum  that the B/4 route should  not be extended up  Knapp Street  over the years as it would carry air as there is virtually nothing there. What is really bothering me here is two things with first the push to straighten out the routes and the second is the 902 feet between stops. As i stated with the B/4, keep it the way it is for the reasons that I have listed. It is the push to eliminate stops that concerns me more as I am worried that instead of having intermediate stops between the Avenues such as between Ocean and Bedford and Nostrand Avenues, buses will stop at the Avenues only based on the 902 feet standard. 

If there's to be a B4 that doesn't serve Sheepshead Bay subway, you may as well terminate the route at the hospital - Which is exactly what was done with the 2010 cuts (of course, the MTA later reverted Sheepshead service sometime in early 2013)..... From points east of the subway, there isn't all that much through riding being done on that route.....

[Future ENY OP]

On 11/7/2019 at 3:19 PM, B35 via Church said:

...and to those people (that don't know any better), I would revert back to the original, general stance of the B74 not needing any extension at all.
(there wouldn't be any carrying of air to worry about)

If there's to be a B4 that doesn't serve Sheepshead Bay subway, you may as well terminate the route at the hospital - Which is exactly what was done with the 2010 cuts (of course, the MTA later reverted Sheepshead service sometime in early 2013)..... From points east of the subway, there isn't all that much through riding being done on that route.....

Yeh, the B4 definitely needs be terminated either at CIH and or Sheepshead Bay Road . Anything further than that doesn’t make sense since that particular portion of Sheepshead Bay is car centric and somewhat dependent of the B36. There is no need for the B4 to be at Knapp Street. 

[Interested Rider]

On 11/7/2019 at 4:19 PM, B35 via Church said:

...and to those people (that don't know any better), I would revert back to the original, general stance of the B74 not needing any extension at all.
(there wouldn't be any carrying of air to worry about)

If there's to be a B4 that doesn't serve Sheepshead Bay subway, you may as well terminate the route at the hospital - Which is exactly what was done with the 2010 cuts (of course, the MTA later reverted Sheepshead service sometime in early 2013)..... From points east of the subway, there isn't all that much through riding being done on that route.....

I know about the the cutting of the B/4 route in 2010 at the hospital. The point that I was making however is that there seems to be a move to straighten out bus routes so that there should be no deviation from the straight route and that was the reason that I referred to Ocean Avenue as a terminal point. I have taken the B/4 from the hospital to the Sheepshead Bay station during the early afternoon and it was a typical B/4 run as it was not crowded (and for the record neither is the rest of the line) and this can be seen in the 20 -30 minute headways at that itme. As long as I can remember even when the B/4 terminated at Harway Avenue up and until November 1978, the headways on the line were close to 20 minutes during the day so the B/ 4  ihas always been a poor performer compared to routes that parallel the route even on the west end.

 

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Yeh, the B4 definiitely needs be terminated either at CIH and or Sheepshead Bay Road . Anything further than that doesn’t make sense since that particular portion of Sheepshead Bay is car centric and somewhat dependent of the B36. There is no need for the B4 to be at Knapp Street. 

The neighborhood may be car centric but there is a large amount of persons who are elderly who live on the route who do not drive and rely on it. If the B/4 is  cut at the hospital, then  the link to Sheepshead Bay Station from Knapp Street will be cut for many of them.and that means no access to shopping and the post office. When the route was cut at the hospital in 2010, there was a vast outcry from the community organizations, political leaders and the Community Board for the route to be restored. If this change is proposed, the community will fight tooth and nail to stop it. 

As far as the B/36 is concerned there are only three streets that allow for a crossing of thr Belt Parkway from the B/36; Ocean Avenue, Bedford Avenue and Nostrand Avenue so if a rider lives (for example) between these streets or east of Nostrand Avenue on Emmons Avenue, I sincerely doubt that someone will take the B/36 but will tkae a cab instead. of relying on the b/36 or walking. In my many years of taking the B/36, I have not seem anyone who would take the B/36 to Nostrand Avenue and Avenue Z and then cross over to take B/44 to Knapp Street

 

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Yeh, the B4 definitely needs be terminated either at CIH and or Sheepshead Bay Road . Anything further than that doesn’t make sense since that particular portion of Sheepshead Bay is car centric and somewhat dependent of the B36. There is no need for the B4 to be at Knapp Street. 

Oh, I'm not saying that it should terminate at CIH.... I'm opining on a hypothetical that has it not serving Sheepshead subway (which I don't at all concur with).....

I used to advocate for cutting some trips back to the subway station.... Then the attitude eventually became one of *what's the point, may as well keep the coverage on all the trips - the route runs like shit anyway*..... Well that, and considering the wacky compromises involving the B36 or the B44 .....

I don't necessarily care for the actual terminal (by the 7-11, or whatever's over there now), but where else can you really put it? Stop it dead where the B44 terminates?

9 hours ago, Interested Rider said:

I know about the the cutting of the B/4 route in 2010 at the hospital. The point that I was making however is that there seems to be a move to straighten out bus routes so that there should be no deviation from the straight route and that was the reason that I referred to Ocean Avenue as a terminal point. I have taken the B/4 from the hospital to the Sheepshead Bay station during the early afternoon and it was a typical B/4 run as it was not crowded (and for the record neither is the rest of the line) and this can be seen in the 20 -30 minute headways at that time. As long as I can remember even when the B/4 terminated at Harway Avenue up and until November 1978, the headways on the line were close to 20 minutes during the day so the B/ 4  ihas always been a poor performer compared to routes that parallel the route even on the west end.

I understood the point you were making & I'm quite sure you knew about the route's previous truncation....

What I'm saying is that, if there's to be this (asinine) revocation of the B4 from Sheepshead subway (being that virtually nobody bothers with the thing on Neptune in Brighton Beach), they may as well dead the thing at the hospital, instead of at Ocean..... The latter would be wasted mileage if it's not stopping at the subway station....

You're more or less bolstering my point in that (bolded) part of your post here.

[BrooklynBus]

On 11/9/2019 at 11:59 AM, Future ENY OP said:

Yeh, the B4 definitely needs be terminated either at CIH and or Sheepshead Bay Road . Anything further than that doesn’t make sense since that particular portion of Sheepshead Bay is car centric and somewhat dependent of the B36. There is no need for the B4 to be at Knapp Street. 

Plenty of people depend on the eastern portion of the B4 especially in the rush hour to get to and from the subway. When KCC is not in session and there’s is no beach service, B4 buses are just as crowded as the B49, yet no one would suggest to cut that route at Sheepshead Bay Station during those times. There even is ridership on Neptune Avenue which is why service was returned there in 2013. When the MTA cut midday and evening B4 service in 2010 to CI Hospital, their first plan was to terminate it at the hospital during non rush hours. I wrote to them that buses on Neptune Avenue at 2PM carried full seated loads in both directions, so how could they discontinue it? So they redid their counts and based on what I told them, they started afternoon buses to Knapp Street at 1:30 PM instead of 4:30 PM. They even told me so. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 11/9/2019 at 11:59 AM, Future ENY OP said:

Yeh, the B4 definitely needs be terminated either at CIH and or Sheepshead Bay Road . Anything further than that doesn’t make sense since that particular portion of Sheepshead Bay is car centric and somewhat dependent of the B36. There is no need for the B4 to be at Knapp Street. 

It should not be terminated at either location.  Where it terminates now there is near a residential area with tons of large buildings nearby that would be forced into two buses to reach the train station. There's a nursing home, as well as a movie theater and other businesses so the bus is a must there.  I say this as someone that depended on the B4 growing up.  Always people on that bus in that area.  There's also the entire commercial area of Emmons Avenue for those that do shopping, dining, etc. that would no longer have bus service.

[Lex]

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It should not be terminated at either location.  Where it terminates now there is near a residential area with tons of large buildings nearby that would be forced into two buses to reach the train station.

I mean, the B44 serves a different (accessible) station, so there's that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

I mean, the B44 serves a different (accessible) station, so there's that.

What station is that? People need the  ...

[Around the Horn]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What station is that? People need the  ...

I believe he's referring to Flatbush Avenue , which as you mention doesn't serve the .

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Around the Horn said:

I believe he's referring to Flatbush Avenue , which as you mention doesn't serve the .

That’s what I thought... Too far... As someone who lived and grew up there, the entire Eastern part of Sheepshead Bay is far away from the subway, so that bus is a must. It’s the equivalent of not having the B16 serve Shore Road. You need it for coverage, even if the bus isn’t packed.

[Future ENY OP]

9 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It should not be terminated at either location.  Where it terminates now there is near a residential area with tons of large buildings nearby that would be forced into two buses to reach the train station. There's a nursing home, as well as a movie theater and other businesses so the bus is a must there.  I say this as someone that depended on the B4 growing up.  Always people on that bus in that area.  There's also the entire commercial area of Emmons Avenue for those that do shopping, dining, etc. that would no longer have bus service.

Maybe I'm looking at this from a different spectrum. Also as someone who worked at Sheepshead Bay in the past every time I saw a B4 It would either run empty or maybe a few passengers max. That's the only reason I referenced what I said about that part of the bay being car centric. However, I do get you in regards to that part of the bay needs bus service and it does.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Maybe I'm looking at this from a different spectrum. Also as someone who worked at Sheepshead Bay in the past every time I saw a B4 It would either run empty or maybe a few passengers max. That's the only reason I referenced what I said about that part of the bay being car centric. However, I do get you in regards to that part of the bay needs bus service and it does.

Yeah seeing a bus pass by and riding it is two different things. It will never be packed, but there is still a need for it. Heck, there are a lot of lines that have segments where ridership is super heavy, but without it there would be no service.

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah seeing a bus pass by and riding it is two different things. It will never be packed, but there is still a need for it. 

That is certainly true. I remember once reading about a politician who obviously never rode a bus making a comment that there were too many buses in Downtown Brooklyn. He was around Adams and Joralemon where like a dozen routes pass and most are one or two stops from the end of the route where most of the people had already gotten off or had not gotten on yet. Not only didn't he realize that, he thought they were all on the same route, so he commented to the press, why do we need a bus running every minute that carries only a handful of passengers? He claimed the MTA was being wasteful with all that service. 

As far as the other comment that the  are sufficient, that is exactly what the MTA thought when they proposed the B44 SBS. They stated that it would be so attractive with its quick service, people would switch from the B36 and the B4 to go to the  instead of the Brighton line. That never happened and they had to cutback the 2 minute B44 rush hour service after the first pick. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

That is certainly true. I remember once reading about a politician who obviously never rode a bus making a comment that there were too many buses in Downtown Brooklyn. He was around Adams and Joralemon where like a dozen routes pass and most are one or two stops from the end of the route where most of the people had already gotten off or had not gotten on yet. Not only didn't he realize that, he thought they were all on the same route, so he commented to the press, why do we need a bus running every minute that carries only a handful of passengers? He claimed the MTA was being wasteful with all that service. 

As far as the other comment that the  are sufficient, that is exactly what the MTA thought when they proposed the B44 SBS. They stated that it would be so attractive with its quick service, people would switch from the B36 and the B4 to go to the  instead of the Brighton line. That never happened and they had to cutback the 2 minute B44 rush hour service after the first pick. 

No one wants to stay on a bus in that area any longer than they have to. They want to get to the  train. Through junior high and high school, I relied on the B4 at some point and part of the problem was it was quite unreliable.  A bus was due about every 15 minutes and that would rarely happen. I can definitely remember those bitterly cold days with the wind hurling right off of the bay waiting at Emmons Avenue by Shore Blvd and waiting upwards of 45 minutes for one bus.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No one wants to stay on a bus in that area any longer than they have to. They want to get to the  train. Through junior high and high school, I relied on the B4 at some point and part of the problem was it was quite unreliable.  A bus was due about every 15 minutes and that would rarely happen. I can definitely remember those bitterly cold days with the wind hurling right off of the bay waiting at Emmons Avenue by Shore Blvd and waiting upwards of 45 minutes for one bus.

Apparently, though obvious to us, it wasn’t obvious to the MTA that no one (except for bus fans) wants to stay on a bus longer than necessary. Waiting 45 minutes in the bitter cold for a bus is something I never want to do again. And people wonder why some would take their car instead. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

28 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Apparently, though obvious to us, it wasn’t obvious to the MTA that no one (except for bus fans) wants to stay on a bus longer than necessary. Waiting 45 minutes in the bitter cold for a bus is something I never want to do again. And people wonder why some would take their car instead. 

I was in junior high school at the time, so I remember the waits vividly, and today I certainly would not do it. I'd call for an Uber. 

[WhattheF]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:56 AM, B35 via Church said:

• Why should a Neptune av. route run to Kings Plaza specifically....
• Why should there be a Neptune av route....
• Why should it run up Knapp st.....
• Why should it be the B4....

Geez forgive me for suggesting something 🙄. I did not know it was discussed before.

Edited November 14, 2019 by WhattheF

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, WhattheF said:

Geez forgive me for suggesting something 🙄. I did not know it was discussed before.

Despite all that, your suggestion/inquiry was still opined upon (quite a few elaborate posts in fact) - so let's not make like you were lambasted because it was discussed before....

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Future ENY OP]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:24 AM, BrooklynBus said:

As far as the other comment that the  are sufficient, that is exactly what the MTA thought when they proposed the B44 SBS. They stated that it would be so attractive with its quick service, people would switch from the B36 and the B4 to go to the  instead of the Brighton line. That never happened and they had to cutback the 2 minute B44 rush hour service after the first pick. 

Just now seeing this. Those Sheepshead patrons will always favor the Brighton Lines  over the Lex/7th . If I were living in Sheepshead and I needed to get to Atlantic Ave-Pacific Street it’s the Brighton Line over the Lex/7th. 

However, if I’m on the Nostrand Avenue end of Sheepshead, than Lex Avenue express to Downtown Brooklyn vs taking the B4 or B36 to Sheepshead Bay Road for Brighton service. Also, there’s a bigger merging bottleneck between the  and  on President where as there’s no merging problems with the   which Sheepshead patrons prefer and it’s an easier trip to Manhattan. 

[B35 via Church]

42 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Just now seeing this. Those Sheepshead patrons will always favor the Brighton Lines  over the Lex/7th . If I were living in Sheepshead and I needed to get to Atlantic Ave-Pacific Street it’s the Brighton Line over the Lex/7th. 

However, if I’m on the Nostrand Avenue end of Sheepshead, than Lex Avenue express to Downtown Brooklyn vs taking the B4 or B36 to Sheepshead Bay Road for Brighton service. Also, there’s a bigger merging bottleneck between the  and  on President where as there’s no merging problems with the   which Sheepshead patrons prefer and it’s an easier trip to Manhattan. 

The fact of the matter is that those that reside in the Sheepshead & the Nostrand houses are more apt to taking the B44 to the Junction & everyone else in the neighborhood are more apt to taking the B36 or the B4 (depending on proximity) to the Brighton line.....

Edited November 14, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

Does anyone know why the B82SBS is a weekday only route? The B82LCL during the weekends tends to get delayed.

And on the topic of SBS; when is the B15 and Q10 finally going to get SBS?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lawrence St

[Future ENY OP]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Does anyone know why the B82SBS is a weekday only route? The B82LCL during the weekends tends to get delayed.

And on the topic of SBS; when is the B15 and Q10 finally going to get SBS?

To that question. No time soon. 

The B41 needs SBS before those 2 buses.