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Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas


B36 Via Ave U

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  • 9 months later...
On 3/15/2012 at 10:38 PM, B35 via Church said:

 

since the site's been down, I've been working on my map.... all I basically gotta do is add text.... anyway, I have the:

 

- B1 remaining the same

- B4 running from knapp/voorhies to 86th/4th (via av z, via 86th)

- B64 running from mermaid bus loop to 86th/4th (via bath av, via VA hospital)

- B31 remaining the same

- B2 extended to Xaverian HS (via av P)

- B16 altered to serve ft. hamilton pkwy where it currently doesn't, also cut back to parkside (Q)

- and the "B23" running from ft hamilton pkwy/86th st to Rockaway Pkwy (L)

(via 13th/14th av's, via church av (F)(G), via cortelyou...)

 

there's other ideas I have, but I'll just list the ones relevant/related to your reply here....

-----------------------------

 

 

- As for a B36 LTD, nah, no dice.... south BK needs all the local service it can get right now; that's one of the last routes that needs to be skipping stops anywhere along its route....

 

- As for B64 making trips to CI during rush hour.... Well, I think that route should be reverted to serving mermaid loop in its totality.... the route as is, is just about useless....

is there a link for said map

 

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On 12/26/2017 at 4:56 PM, BrooklynBus said:

I believe the system should be a basic grid system where possible. That doesn't mean you can't have L shaped routes where necessary because of major destinations like Penn Station. What I oppose are unnecessary turns like the B49 turning off to go serve Rogers Avenue for no good reason when it could continue straight along Ocean Avenue. Even the Sheepshead Bay Station turnoff that I designed now needs to be reevaluated because of all the increased traffic traffic in the last 40 years. I also oppose U shaped routes like the Q38. That's why I eliminated the B21. 

As for a pure grid system all over, first of all it isn't even possible because there are too many grid irregularities and it would require much more walking to reach your destination. In fact, Denver tried it back in in the late 70s when it was run by John Simpson. The transit magazines published favorable articles how Simpson came to Denver and in a few months eliminated many turns so the routes could all be straighter and quicker and how they saved on operating costs, knowing nothing about the system. (He was previously from NYC.) So NYC hired him around 1980 as the first NYCTA president. (Prior to that the head was called the chief executive officer.) Then a year later, the ridership numbers were released and it was discovered that the switch to the pure grid system caused massive ridership losses and switches to other modes because many who were previously a few blocks from a bus route now had to walk a half mile to reach one. But he already had the job here. 

The same thing would happen now. You can't design a system simply by doing what looks nice on a map, as Simpson proved. 

The routes need to be long to minimize transfers but most services should be short based on travel patterns to improve reliability. Routes need to overlap like the B5 and B50 once did, not be split in half to increase transferring. We shouldn't be increasing the numbers who need to pay double fare as that and SBS are doing, as long as Cuomo refuses to grant extra free transfers. 

you should make your own map of all the busses

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  • 2 weeks later...
5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

also i really love what you did with the b24 and q104 my local bus aka the 24 it is really underloved like the 39 which still has only one bus on the whole route

 

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  • 8 months later...

To follow Through with previous thread of playing on jpwright with proposing subway extensions on the map Since we are in Brooklyn now

(4) extended down utica av to Kings Plaza 

Does the 46 Need to be redesigned 

(2) to kings plaza via Flatbush

Does the 41 Need to be redesigned? 

(3) extended down Nostrand to Avenue W 

Does the 44 need to be redesigned?

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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6 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

To follow Through with previous thread of playing on jpwright with proposing subway extensions on the map Since we are in Brooklyn now

(4) extended down utica av to Kings Plaza 

Does the 46 Need to be redesigned 

(2) to kings plaza via Flatbush

Does the 41 Need to be redesigned? 

(3) extended down Nostrand to Avenue W 

Does the 44 need to be redesigned?

 

With those subway extensions, the SBS/Limiteds might have to be rethought. The local service has to stay put. 

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On 9/4/2021 at 3:37 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

To follow Through with previous thread of playing on jpwright with proposing subway extensions on the map Since we are in Brooklyn now

(4) extended down utica av to Kings Plaza

Does the 46 Need to be redesigned?

(2) to kings plaza via Flatbush

Does the 41 Need to be redesigned? 

(3) extended down Nostrand to Avenue W 

Does the 44 need to be redesigned?

No, to all three.

What, is the notion supposed to be that they get cut back or something, because of those (would-be) extensions?

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  • 3 months later...

There was some talk about restructuring the BMs in the Random Thoughts thread, so in order to not veer too off-course there, I'll post here what I had in thought.

 

Off Peak Hours

 (BM1)(BM2)

I would have the BM1 & BM2 would take Prospect Expressway / Ocean Parkway until Beverely Road, in both directions. It would then take Beverly Road until either Ocean Avenue  or Flatbush Avenue . The BM1 would have one stop at Beverly Road & East 16th Street on the new route. The BM2 would make the East 16th Street stop, as well as a new stop at Flatbush Avenue & Beverly Road.

Inbound service would operate every 60 minutes as follows:

  • BM1 from Mill Basin
    • Weekdays: 10:00 AM, 10:40 AM, 11:40 AM, 12:40 PM, 1:40 PM, 2:40 PM, 3:40 PM, 4:40 PM, 5:50 PM, 6:50 PM, 7:50 PM, 8:50 PM, 10:00 PM
    • Saturdays: 7:30 AM - 8:30 PM
  • BM2 from Canarsie
    • Weekdays: 9:05 AM, 10:05 AM, 11:05 AM, 12:05 PM, 1:05 PM, 2:05 PM, 3:05 PM, 4:05 PM, 5:05 PM, 6:05 PM, 7:05 PM, 8:05 PM, 9:05 PM
    • Saturdays: 6:00 AM - 10:00 PM

(BM3)(BM4)

These two route paths would be unaffected, operating via the existing alignment in Kensington. Inbound service would operate every 60 minutes as follows:

  • BM3 from Sheepshead Bay
    • Weekdays: 10:20 AM, 11:20 AM, 12:20 PM, 1:20 PM, 2:20 PM, 3:20 PM, 4:20 PM, 5:20 PM, 6:20 PM, 7:20 PM, 8:20 PM 
    • Saturdays: 6:20 AM - 8:20 PM
  • BM4 from Gerritsen Beach: 
    • Weekdays: 10:00 AM, 11:00 AM, 12:00 PM, 1:00 PM, 2:00 PM, 3:00 PM, 4:00 PM, 5:00 PM
    • Saturdays: 7:20 AM - 4:20 PM 

Rush Hours

(BM1)(BM3)

The Midtown super express variant (Downtown too if ridership warrants it) would operate on the regular route until Avenue J, then use Avenue J & Ocean Parkway into Manhattan. There would be added stops on Avenue J at the following locations:

  • Ocean Avenue
  • East 16th Street
  • Coney Island Avenue
  • East 7th Street/Ocean Parkway

Buses would operate express to/from Manhattan. There might be a slight reduction to the Midtown BM1 variant at worst. It may be a good idea to relabel these services in order to avoid confusion with the standard BM1 and BM3 service (so BM11 and BM13 for the Midtown service, and BM21 and BM23 for the Downtown service if that's also done). 

(BM2)

The BM2 would operate on Beverly Road as mentioned earlier. During this time period, since the BM1 would not be operating on Beverly Road, it would be the only route making stops there. 

(BM4)

In the AM rush, while the BM1 and/or BM3 super super express buses are running, BM4 buses would make no stops between Nostrand Avenue & Avenue L and Ocean Avenue & Avenue I. Additionally, put-ins/short-turns would be placed to/from Avenue I, doubling BM4 service north of Avenue I. This means that Midtown service to/from Avenue I would operate every 10 minutes in the AM peak, and every 10-15 minutes in the PM peak. 

 

 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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23 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

There was some talk about restructuring the BMs in the Random Thoughts thread, so in order to not veer too off-course there, I'll post here what I had in thought.

 

Off Peak Hours

 (BM1)(BM2)

I would have the BM1 & BM2 would take Prospect Expressway / Ocean Parkway until Beverely Road, in both directions. It would then take Beverly Road until either Ocean Avenue  or Flatbush Avenue . The BM1 would have one stop at Beverly Road & East 16th Street on the new route. The BM2 would make the East 16th Street stop, as well as a new stop at Flatbush Avenue & Beverly Road.

Inbound service would operate every 60 minutes as follows:

  • BM1 from Mill Basin
    • Weekdays: 10:00 AM, 10:40 AM, 11:40 AM, 12:40 PM, 1:40 PM, 2:40 PM, 3:40 PM, 4:40 PM, 5:50 PM, 6:50 PM, 7:50 PM, 8:50 PM, 10:00 PM
    • Saturdays: 7:30 AM - 8:30 PM
  • BM2 from Canarsie
    • Weekdays: 9:05 AM, 10:05 AM, 11:05 AM, 12:05 PM, 1:05 PM, 2:05 PM, 3:05 PM, 4:05 PM, 5:05 PM, 6:05 PM, 7:05 PM, 8:05 PM, 9:05 PM
    • Saturdays: 6:00 AM - 10:00 PM

(BM3)(BM4)

These two route paths would be unaffected, operating via the existing alignment in Kensington. Inbound service would operate every 60 minutes as follows:

  • BM3 from Sheepshead Bay
    • Weekdays: 10:20 AM, 11:20 AM, 12:20 PM, 1:20 PM, 2:20 PM, 3:20 PM, 4:20 PM, 5:20 PM, 6:20 PM, 7:20 PM, 8:20 PM 
    • Saturdays: 6:20 AM - 8:20 PM
  • BM4 from Gerritsen Beach: 
    • Weekdays: 10:00 AM, 11:00 AM, 12:00 PM, 1:00 PM, 2:00 PM, 3:00 PM, 4:00 PM, 5:00 PM
    • Saturdays: 7:20 AM - 4:20 PM 

Rush Hours

(BM1)(BM3)

The Midtown super express variant (Downtown too if ridership warrants it) would operate on the regular route until Avenue J, then use Avenue J & Ocean Parkway into Manhattan. There would be added stops on Avenue J at the following locations:

  • Ocean Avenue
  • East 16th Street
  • Coney Island Avenue
  • East 7th Street/Ocean Parkway

Buses would operate express to/from Manhattan. There might be a slight reduction to the Midtown BM1 variant at worst. It may be a good idea to relabel these services in order to avoid confusion with the standard BM1 and BM3 service (so BM11 and BM13 for the Midtown service, and BM21 and BM23 for the Downtown service if that's also done). 

(BM2)

The BM2 would operate on Beverly Road as mentioned earlier. During this time period, since the BM1 would not be operating on Beverly Road, it would be the only route making stops there. 

(BM4)

In the AM rush, while the BM1 and/or BM3 super super express buses are running, BM4 buses would make no stops between Nostrand Avenue & Avenue L and Ocean Avenue & Avenue I. Additionally, put-ins/short-turns would be placed to/from Avenue I, doubling BM4 service north of Avenue I. This means that Midtown service to/from Avenue I would operate every 10 minutes in the AM peak, and every 10-15 minutes in the PM peak. 

 

 

 (BM1) and (BM2) riders want faster trips. I don't understand the need to have stops so far north when the (BM3) and (BM4) can handle that and the stops alone. If you've looked at the amount of stops the (BM1) and (BM2) make in Brooklyn alone, it's at least 25 stops. Some buses make that many stops total between Manhattan and their respective outerborough.

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37 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 (BM1) and (BM2) riders want faster trips. I don't understand the need to have stops so far north when the (BM3) and (BM4) can handle that and the stops alone. If you've looked at the amount of stops the (BM1) and (BM2) make in Brooklyn alone, it's at least 25 stops. Some buses make that many stops total between Manhattan and their respective outerborough.

"So far north" is an exaggeration since when Beverley Road is the next street north of Cortelyou Road. Also it isn't just about number of stops, but route path. Eliminating or retaining stops which don't get much patronage doesn't save much time. That's not to say that the stops along Cortelyou Road are very low in ridership. However, the route path the BM1/BM2 takes in Kensington isn't helpful, especially during rush hours, because of the amount of turns and congestion. I mean look at the orientation of Cortelyou Road in the area, versus Beverley Road. It's a much straighter shot using Beverley Road to/from the expressway over its current route. There are no net stop additions to the BM1 or BM2 either, the off-peak BM1 loses a stop and the BM2 remains the same.

For the BM1, the peak route would operate non-stop from Avenue J & Ocean Parkway. There's 29 stops on the existing route, and the proposed route change would lower it to 26, and would be more direct. Even with congestion that may occur around the (Q) station, I would argue that it would save more time than doing the Cortelyou > C I Ave > Ocean Pkwy > Prospect Expwy route during rush hours. 

If there's stop consolidation opportunities on the individual route portions (BM1/BM2/BM3) thats also another potential thing to do, but I mainly focused on getting around the meandering route in the Kensington area as well as making peak service faster from Southern Brooklyn. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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8 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

So far north is an exaggeration since at least for the off-peak route, Beverley Road is the next street north of Cortelyou Road. It isn't just about number of stops, but route path. The route path the BM1/BM2 takes in Kensington isn't helpful either, particularly because of the amount of turns and congestion. I mean look at the orientation of Cortelyou Road in the area, versus Beverley Road. It's a much straighter shot using Beverley Road, especially with the outbound route, eliminating multiple turns and avoiding how congested Cortelyou Road can get. While the amount of stops on the BM2 doesn't change, the BM1 has one less stop. 

For the BM1, the peak route would operate non-stop from Avenue J & Ocean Parkway. There's 29 stops on the existing route, and the proposed route change would lower it to 26, and would be more direct. Even with congestion that may occur around the (Q) station, I would argue that it would save more time than doing the Cortelyou > C I Ave > Ocean Pkwy > Prospect Expwy route during rush hours. 

If there's stop consolidation opportunities on the individual route portions (BM1/BM2/BM3) thats another thing, but I mainly focused on getting around the meandering route in the Kensington area as well as making peak service faster from Southern Brooklyn. 

Yeah but I'm looking at peak and off-peak, as someone that uses the BMs from far out. The only route that doesn't need tweaking is the (BM5). Kriston Lewis gets on further north, so I don't think he realizes how long the trips are. I often get on at the first stop and sometimes go the entire length of the route, but regardless, for the people living in Sheepshead Bay, Gerritsen Beach, Mill Basin and Canarsie, all trips must be sped up and cutting just three stops is not enough, though I do agree that the routing for the (BM1) and (BM2) should be more direct where possible and avoid Cortelyou, etc. Part of the issue with these lines is more people would take them that live further out, but they make too many stops.

It's like the (QM16) and (QM17). Riders did not want to make all of those stops along Woodhaven Blvd when they already have to make stops in the Rockaways and in Broad Channel and Howard Beach. That's enough right there, so they circulated a petition and kept pushing until the (MTA) shortened the pick-up segment. If this redesign is done right, the pick-up segment should be 35 minutes in Manhattan max for the All Stops trips and maybe 30 minutes in Brooklyn. Get it down to an hour like the BM5 and make these lines true express buses. They spend too much time making pick-ups on the local streets, with too many turns.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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47 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah but I'm looking at peak and off-peak, as someone that uses the BMs from far out. The only route that doesn't need tweaking is the (BM5). Kriston Lewis gets on further north, so I don't think he realizes how long the trips are. I often get on at the first stop and sometimes go the entire length of the route, but regardless, for the people living in Sheepshead Bay, Gerritsen Beach, Mill Basin and Canarsie, all trips must be sped up and cutting just three stops is not enough, though I do agree that the routing for the (BM1) and (BM2) should be more direct where possible and avoid Cortelyou, etc. Part of the issue with these lines is more people would take them that live further out, but they make too many stops.

It's like the (QM16) and (QM17). Riders did not want to make all of those stops along Woodhaven Blvd when they already have to make stops in the Rockaways and in Broad Channel and Howard Beach. That's enough right there, so they circulated a petition and kept pushing until the (MTA) shortened the pick-up segment. If this redesign is done right, the pick-up segment should be 35 minutes in Manhattan max for the All Stops trips and maybe 30 minutes in Brooklyn. Get it down to an hour like the BM5 and make these lines true express buses. They spend too much time making pick-ups on the local streets, with too many turns.

Besides eliminating/consolidating stops in Brooklyn, the street grid and the expressway network makes it difficult to improve travel times for the BM2. 

I could maybe see having the BM1 operate express to/from Avenue J at all times (since it has the strongest ridership), but I'm not sure that whatever new ridership it gets south of Avenue J would offset what it picks up north. You might need it to serve more areas in Manhattan for that to work, whether it's by structuring the off peak route similar to the SIM33C, ditching Downtown and serving more destinations in the Midtown area, or some other plan. I don't see the BM3 and BM4 surviving as off-peak routes if they did something similar (especially the latter). 

 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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7 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Besides eliminating/consolidating stops in Brooklyn, the street grid and the expressway network makes it difficult to improve travel times for the BM2. 

I could maybe see having the BM1 operate express to/from Avenue J at all times (since it has the strongest ridership), but I'm not sure that whatever new ridership it gets south of Avenue J would offset what it picks up north. You might need it to serve more areas in Manhattan for that to work, whether it's by structuring the off peak route similar to the SIM33C, ditching Downtown and serving more destinations in the Midtown area, or some other plan. I don't see the BM3 and BM4 surviving as off-peak routes if they did something similar (especially the latter). 

 

I have thought about all of these lines at length. As someone who grew up in Southern Brooklyn in Sheepshead Bay, I've spent some time in Manhattan Beach, Mill Basin, Gerritsen Beach and the surrounding areas with friends that I went to junior high and high school with.

The (MTA) a few years ago noted demographic changes is the main reason for BM ridership decline. Yes, there have been demographic changes in some areas going back to when I lived in Brooklyn, but those changes aren't the reason for the ridership decline. The service has declined considerably so that some people in Mill Basin have shifted from the express bus to the (B100) and the (Q) train. That's a ridership base where you could get some people back (Bergen Beach as well) with a faster (BM1) - it won't be earth shattering given the size and low density of the areas, but you could get some riders there. Right now it is the areas north of Mill Basin and Bergen Beach such as Old Mill Basin along Avenue K where the route is getting a chunk of its ridership from. While Old Mill Basin has changed, these are new middle class people that can afford the express bus and reliable service would improve ridership there. It is similar to Canarsie in that regard.

Don't be fooled. The (MTA) definitely looks at demographics. We had long discussions about it with Staten Island and the decisions they made there with new express bus service. The (BM1) does not necessarily need ridership north of Avenue K to do well as substantial parts of the route are away from the subway.

As for the (BM2), the route should likely stay as is within Canarsie (it needs to serve the more suburban feeling parts away from the (L) where you have homeowners that will take the express bus). No question about it. What must change though there is the amount of stops. Stop consolidation would take place along E 105th St. You don't need a stop every block. That's the (MTA) trying to say hey there is a bus in your neighborhood that is very convenient stopping on every block that takes you to Manhattan. Problem is the line is slow with too pick-up stops. Avenue M is ok bus stop wise, but perhaps one or two stops could be removed. The same with E 80th St. They already did stop consolidation IIRC along Flatbush Av years ago (smart move, as those folks are closer to the (2) and (5) and those who truly need the (BM2) can get it at Flatbush and Foster - usually not hoards of riders there). 

In short though, it is the stop consolidation that the (BM1) , (BM2) , (BM3) and (BM4) would benefit from and then I would look at the deadheading situation. I have been asking the (MTA) to see where they can have some BM trips start in Manhattan to improve reliability. There are quite a few trips where you have a Downtown Loop trip, then a deadhead back to the City for another Midtown or Downtown Loop trip, etc., and any delay to or from and the next trip is extremely late.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's like the (QM16) and (QM17). Riders did not want to make all of those stops along Woodhaven Blvd when they already have to make stops in the Rockaways and in Broad Channel and Howard Beach. That's enough right there, so they circulated a petition and kept pushing until the (MTA) shortened the pick-up segment.nd make these lines true express buses. They spend too much time making pick-ups on the local streets, with too many turns.

 

They should be careful what they ask for...   

Shorter pick-up segment >> Fewer passengers picked up >> Potential for less service

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This service pattern has been in place for years and it makes a lot of sense. The (QM15) covers that area just fine.

There's a rumor I've been reading about regarding the fate of the (QM16)(QM17) express buses if the Rockaway Beach Branch ever gets reactivated for subway service, and it's not a good rumor. There's been some speculation that ridership on those routes will fall off a cliff once the subway reaches the QBL from the Rockaway Peninsula, though we can't be really sure what kind of impact it would have till we actually experience it.

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