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nostalgia

Why is the Lex Ave line express in Brooklyn?

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For some reason, it dawned on me that the (4) and (5) run express in Brooklyn while the (2) and (3) run local. Why does the Lex Ave line run express and the the 7th Ave line runs local?

 

Since the (2) and (5) have the same Flatbush Avenue terminus, it makes sense that one route should be local and the other express. Since the (3) goes deeper into Brooklyn than the (4), I think the (3) should run express in Brooklyn and the (4) should run local.

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That's actually how the tracks are arranged. The Lexington trains run express and the Seventh Avenue trains run local. If you want the reverse, then there would be a whole lot of switching, and that would be before Atlantic Avenue. So, if there is no Seventh Avenue service in Brooklyn available, Hoyt Street and the (2)(3) Borough Hall station would be closed.

 

detail-jaydklb.png

Edited by GojiMet86
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There is no need for this. People on the line are happy to transfer. As a rider of this line last summer since I worked on the West Side of Manhattan and had to come home, and a rider of it now and then it isn't needed. It's a bad idea.

Edited by Roadcruiser1

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There is no need for this. People on the line are happy to transfer. As a rider of this line last summer since I worked on the West Side of Manhattan and had to come home, and a rider of it now and then it isn't needed. It's a bad idea.

 

How do you know riders are happy to transfer?

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It'd be a hassle to switch the Lexington trains from the express to the local tracks, and vice-versa for the Seventh Avenue trains. And anyway the (2) and the (5) would have to merge anyway, so it wouldn't be efficient. Although the (3) and the (4) stay relatively separated, the switching would be a hassle. Plus, the junction at Utica is arranged so that the local tracks go to New Lots, and the express terminates. Plus, if the (3) went express and (4) local, Manhattan bound trains would have to share the local track at Utica.

 

The reason for the Lexington express and Seventh Avenue local is not because of ridership issues, but because of the arrangement of the tracks.

Edited by GojiMet86
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pm_southeast_2.png

 

Focus on Eastern Pkwy please. All Brooklyn IRT locals that do not go down Nostrand Ave go to Zoo Lots and most Brooklyn IRT expresses go to Utica because Rogers Ave junction is an incomplete design that does not permit express trains to go to Zoo Lots without taking switches at either Rogers junction or Utica to cross over locals. Some expresses do during rush hour, but not too many can because this would cause more merging delays and reduce train capacity. Already the (5) trains that go to Flatbush/Nostrand Aves have to cross over local tracks at Rogers junction, blocking not only the (2) but also (3) trains. Locals ending at Utica would cause more delays because they would have to cross over to the express/relay track at Utica in order to turn around.

 

The reason why the Brooklyn IRT is like this is because the residents of Eastern Pkwy demanded in the early 1900s that no construction take place on the north side of the parkway, causing the subway to be built in a stacked configuration on the south side of the parkway east of Franklin Ave. This made it harder to make room for a Columbus Circle IND-type configuration (see below) where no trains cross over each other without staying together for a long period of time. The (B)(D) merge to go across 53rd St and then down 6th Ave with no interference from the (A)(C), which go down 8th Ave south of Columbus Circle. See below.

 

detail-47-63.png

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I'm wondering why they didn't just go for having a bi-level configuration, with the locals on top and expresses on the bottom, for Eastern Parkway. Then again, maybe having platforms on the north side would have been a problem with the residents.

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How do you know riders are happy to transfer?

 

I rode the line for four entire months and I know the people there. I have ridden around that area frequently. The people are just fine. When something isn't broken don't fix it.

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People hop at Nevins and Franklin w/out any problem. Sometimes people wait for the (2) at Nevins if they're on a (4) just so they can get a seat by time it gets to Franklin (which normally is the case if you sit next to someone white, as they will likely be off the train by Eastern Pkwy :P)

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A more exact question is why the (4) just doesnt go to New Lots (express to Utica), allowing the (3) to relay at Utica, but the answer is the same: track geometry.

Edited by TwoTimer
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I rode the line for four entire months and I know the people there. I have ridden around that area frequently. The people are just fine. When something isn't broken don't fix it.

 

 

I rode the line for 14 years and I do not know you. I love it when you try to speak for everyone.

 

Grew up with the service and I certainly don't mind it, since service is very frequent anyway. In the mornings the 4/5 doesn't even feel like an express in Brooklyn to begin with.

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Interesting does anybody have a track diagram for the triborough branch/bay ridge LIRR and the (G) subway line. In any case would it be a shock if MTA tried to extend the franklin ave (S) northward to connect to the (G) or even allow a new crosstown via franklin ave to coney island from court sq or simply extend (S) to link with (G) directly that may obliterate the B48's remaining ridership

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peacemak3r: That happens because of the high volume of train traffic on the (4)(5)?

 

Also the more I think about it the more I wonder how much it would hurt to have the (3) end at Utica and have all or most (4) trains end at New Lots with the current track geometry. Just putting it out there since the (3) runs the fewest TPH of all the Eastern Pkwy lines. I was thinking they would have the (3) terminate on the eastbound local track at Utica, wait for the eastbound (4) to cross over east of the station in the event that a (4) is right there, and then right after that have the (3) cross onto the relay track.

 

Then downstairs the north track would now be the track the westbound (3) enters after relaying and the south track would now be the track the (4) enters after coming from New Lots. The westbound (4) would cross over to the express track west of Utica and the (3) would cross over to the local track. If a (4) is right there, the (4) gets priority.

 

I know, I know, they do things the way they do them for a reason and there is a reason why this would not work and if this did work they would have been doing it since the line opened etc. The only reason why I mentioned this was because I thought there might be less of a problem with (5) trains crossing over (3) trains at Rogers junction since the number of stops the westbound (3) makes before it gets there would be less and as a result there would be less deviation from the schedule on the (3). Maybe giving the (5) priority over the (3) there if the (5) is running late would be less of a problem since the (3) would be traveling a much shorter distance before the crossover.

 

Also eastbound the (3) would be better off since it would make fewer stops, resulting in fewer variables that might cause it to run late and exacerbate the crossover delays for the (5). I see it as a parallel to 142 St junction since the (3) has to get to 148 but has to let a southbound (2) go first up there. Any crossover delays by Utica or Rogers junction could be dealt with by giving the (3) which would be ending at Utica more recovery time.

 

My apologies if I sound aloof. I think this is well-reasoned out, but if there is a problem with my reasoning and there is a good reason why this would not work, just say so in a respectful manner please.

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peacemak3r: That happens because of the high volume of train traffic on the (4)(5)?

 

 

Basically it. I should have put a sarcasm tag on my post about that one.

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I've been using the (2)(5) for almost 6 years now and am fine with the current configuration. With the extended (5) service thru midday hours, there's always a choice of local/express service. Worse comes worse I transfer at either: Franklin, Atlantic or Nevins. I don't see the need to change things. Now could they have redesigned the Brooklyn segment to have the (4)(5) split and remerge with the (2)(3) -similar to the CPW IND lines- maybe, but like I said: there's no need.

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I hate late night (4) runs. All local, extended to New Lots, slow cross over North of Brooklyn Bridge and Atlantic Avenue South bound, entering Franklin Ave and leaving Atlantic Avenue North bound, a 10MPH GT North of 125th Street that really clears around 5 to 7MPH... on the regular, though, the (4) is a great run...

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My apologies if I sound aloof. I think this is well-reasoned out, but if there is a problem with my reasoning and there is a good reason why this would not work, just say so in a respectful manner please.

 

 

Too many (4)'s for that. Track geometry would have to be altered such that 2 track goes straight and merges with 1 track beyond the relay position and continue on to Sutter (which is possible being that 2 track ends by the portal right next to one track. Vice versa going northbound, a switch would have to be added to allow trains leaving Sutter on 4 track to be able to access 3 track shortly after the portal where it begins to not interrupt any trains exiting the relay. Even with that, sorry Bklyn IRT, it WILL NOT increase the frequency and efficiency of Rogers Junction, your lifelong dream :) It will just stop the conga lines into Utica, and move them further east, out of richer neighborhoods to the ghetto out by New Lots (think: two trains at New Lots, train at Van Siclen, train at Pennsylvania). Even still, that would be a service increase for those points east.

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Fair enough. Thanks Two-Timer. Would the current set-up of Rogers junction prohibit any more trains, especially (5) trains, from going down Nostrand even if they built tail tracks at Flatbush (either an actual track extension or by just extending the platform northward) and allowed any train to use any track?

Edited by BrooklynIRT

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Trains with digital strip maps and FIND to allow train swapping at will, along with a combination of management for the (2) and (5) will do it alone.

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Trains with digital strip maps and FIND to allow train swapping at will, along with a combination of management for the (2) and (5) will do it alone.

 

 

What is "FIND?"

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What is "FIND?"

 

In other words, having R160 type technology (not the train itself) run on the (2) and (5) so trains can swap with inpunity. The other half of this was combining management on both lines. Part of the reason trains try not to be swapped is to make sure trains with (2) strip maps are actually run on the (2) as much as possible, and the same is true with the (5). Obviously R160 equipment can go on any line in the IND/BMT (as long as the entire train can platform safely).

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