NJT proposals/ideas thread 2012-2013

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, 46Dover said:

When we first started that detour (having no visual aids) I drove westbound and made the left down Washington Av off Kingsland (near Clifton Commons).  I kept looking for the street to turn down (which was supposed to be Centre St) and thought if I keep going any further, I’m gonna end up in Newark or something.  So I turned down Grant Ave and went to Passaic, then resumed the route at Kingsland.  After my day was done I went right to supervision and said look, a lot of us may not be familiar with the area so if you and Nutley are going to be bullish on us about this detour, at least give us a detailed Route on it.   I haven’t seen how the 13 uses it’s detour, but would like to see how that route travels.

I have realized that happening a lot. IIRC, about two months ago NY Avenue was closed between 32nd St & 48th St, and the detour that NJT had posted was to go up 32nd St, make the right on JFK Blvd and right on 43rd St. But, there were illegally parked cars at the intersection and some of them couldn’t make the turn so everyone just went down Park Avenue and up 48th St. it’s like the simplest detours they have to make so complicated.

[Lawrence St]

17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Town ordinance that bars buses from continuing on 79th, east of Broadway.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7988683,-74.0011765,3a,27.7y,145.31h,86.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2QiLW3gt1blHeZ-P3P34oA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The short answer to this question is, the extension of the HBLR to Tonnelle av.

See, the #86 is a derivative of the #84... The #86 used to run up to Nungessers, until they scaled the thing back to 48th/49th st (where Bergenline HBLR is located) to have the base route (as in, the #84) continue serving the rest of Bergenline av. on up to Nungessers... Not too long after that phase of the HBLR was completed, was when the #86 got scaled back to Bergenline HBLR.... Considering what the thing (86) does in Jersey City & the demand for the #84 along Palisade & Bergenline from JSQ alone, I'd say it was very much a reasonable move/truncation....

There is definitely demand from along Park av. to get to Bergenline av, so I'm not seeing a need to have the #89 either be a straight Park av. route, or be that much more of a duplicate to the #22 along Bergenline.... This notion that the #84/#84P (or whatever you mean by "The 84 and 84P can be combined...") would be a viable replacement for the #89 is baseless on two fronts:

1. The #84P does nothing to bring Park av riders to the HBLR.
2. The #84/84P & the #89 have two completely separate terminals on their southern ends (JSQ & Hoboken, respectively).

Needs specificity...

What would you have it do between [60th/Park] & [Edgewater Rd., in Cliffside Park] ?

1. That's extremely stupid. You add an extra 5 minutes to a bus route because people don't like a bus in front of their house? Wild.

2. So the 86 used to be the 84J basically?

3. While you are right on that front, it seems most of the ridership on the 89 stems from Park Avenue and not Bergenline, at least when I rode it 3 times. Almost no one that gone on along Washington St got off at Bergenline. That's why I proposed combining the 84 and 84P, as it shifts the ridership base towards a more favorable route.

4. The 156 would do what the 84P does up to 77th St but continue through the park and onto Bergenline Ave and right onto JFK Blvd.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

1. That's extremely stupid. You add an extra 5 minutes to a bus route because people don't like a bus in front of their house? Wild.

2. So the 86 used to be the 84J basically?

3. While you are right on that front, it seems most of the ridership on the 89 stems from Park Avenue and not Bergenline, at least when I rode it 3 times. Almost no one that gone on along Washington St got off at Bergenline. That's why I proposed combining the 84 and 84P, as it shifts the ridership base towards a more favorable route.

4. The 156 would do what the 84P does up to 77th St but continue through the park and onto Bergenline Ave and right onto JFK Blvd.

1. I don't proclaim to know what sparked the ordinance.

2. Can't remember what it was called before it was given a separate route number, but I do remember #86's running up to Nungessers before that HBLR extension over to Tonnelle av...

3. That's not being contested/disputed (more #89 patronage along Park over that of Bergenline) - hell, that much should be obvious, given the discrepancy between the mileage spent on the former over the latter... That still doesn't mean that the #89 should be straightened along Park (which is what it appears you're leaning more towards having it doing)... That connection to the HBLR isn't some negligible factor.....

As far as Washington av., well Hoboken riders aren't taking #22's along Bergenline in any noticeable fashion either, so this bit regarding having #89's straightened along Park or along Bergenline falls short on either note for that particular purpose... Those folks (Hoboken) are off the #89 well before it turns off on 48th.... The bulk of people taking #22's along Bergenline, do so in an interchangeable fashion with other routes....

You're still not making clear as to what you'd have the #84 do, when you say you'd combine the #84 & #84P... Since the #89 is a factor in this discussion, it sounds more like you want to fold the #89 into the #84P (in other words, having #84's run to either JSQ or Hoboken)...

4. So buses would still use Bergenline then... I asked, because you stated that the route needs to be booted off Bergenline Av entirely....

Anyway, although the #156 could use the ridership along Bergenline, I'm not necessarily opposed to having it use Park av (since the thing is more or less a bastard stepchild of the #159 anyway, which of course also runs along Bergenline)... However, there's no real point in having buses go through the park though; there's not going to much of a speed/time saving advantage.... May as well have it running the #84P course to Nungessers, en route to Palisade av., etc....

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

1. I don't proclaim to know what sparked the ordinance.

2. Can't remember what it was called before it was given a separate route number, but I do remember #86's running up to Nungessers before that HBLR extension over to Tonnelle av...

3. That's not being contested/disputed (more #89 patronage along Park over that of Bergenline) - hell, that much should be obvious, given the discrepancy between the mileage spent on the former over the latter... That still doesn't mean that the #89 should be straightened along Park (which is what it appears you're leaning more towards having it doing)... That connection to the HBLR isn't some negligible factor.....

As far as Washington av., well Hoboken riders aren't taking #22's along Bergenline in any noticeable fashion either, so this bit regarding having #89's straightened along Park or along Bergenline falls short on either note for that particular purpose... Those folks (Hoboken) are off the #89 well before it turns off on 48th.... The bulk of people taking #22's along Bergenline, do so in an interchangeable fashion with other routes....

You're still not making clear as to what you'd have the #84 do, when you say you'd combine the #84 & #84P... Since the #89 is a factor in this discussion, it sounds more like you want to fold the #89 into the #84P (in other words, having #84's run to either JSQ or Hoboken)...

4. So buses would still use Bergenline then... I asked, because you stated that the route needs to be booted off Bergenline Av entirely....

Anyway, although the #156 could use the ridership along Bergenline, I'm not necessarily opposed to having it use Park av (since the thing is more or less a bastard stepchild of the #159 anyway, which of course also runs along Bergenline)... However, there's no real point in having buses go through the park though; there's not going to much of a speed/time saving advantage.... May as well have it running the #84P course to Nungessers, en route to Palisade av., etc....

By combine the 84/84P, I mean having it do what the 89 does in Union City, but going down to Journal Square instead of Hoboken.

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

By combine the 84/84P, I mean having it do what the 89 does in Union City, but going down to Journal Square instead of Hoboken.

This part of it is ambiguous, because the #84 & the #84P have different routings in Union City, but alright....

Edited May 16, 2022 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

This part of it is ambiguous, because the #84 & the #84P have different routings in Union City, but alright....

Not Union City sorry, the sections between Park/Berg-49th St & JFK Blvd-91 St.

[BreeddekalbL]

would it even be worth it to split off the wildwood section and the 319 and let it be its own route 

also same can be said of the nwk and jersey city section or eliminate that?

[553 Bridgeton]

6 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

would it even be worth it to split off the wildwood section and the 319 and let it be its own route 

also same can be said of the nwk and jersey city section or eliminate that?

They tried the spilt that route 2-3yrs ago but those people on the islands complained about having to drive to Ocean View Park and Ride or Crest Haven for the 552 to get to Atlantic City.

[Lawrence St]

18 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

would it even be worth it to split off the wildwood section and the 319 and let it be its own route 

also same can be said of the nwk and jersey city section or eliminate that?

I feel bad for whoever does the Newark branch of the 319, Routes 1 & 9 during the rush is an absolute standstill.

[BreeddekalbL]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I feel bad for whoever does the Newark branch of the 319, Routes 1 & 9 during the rush is an absolute standstill.

Yep, I bet the 319 is a senior route 

[Lawrence St]

When did the 89 get so heavily modified? I'm looking at the schedule from 2000 and wow. The 89 used to operate via Newark Av/Paterson Plank Road, down 61st St instead of 60th St, operate via Bergenline instead of Park from 61st St to 2nd St, and end at Park and 77th St.

[go25]

40 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

When did the 89 get so heavily modified? I'm looking at the schedule from 2000 and wow. The 89 used to operate via Newark Av/Paterson Plank Road, down 61st St instead of 60th St, operate via Bergenline instead of Park from 61st St to 2nd St, and end at Park and 77th St.

You can thank the HBLR being extended towards North Bergen as the main reason

[553 Bridgeton]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:29 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

Yep, I bet the 319 is a senior route 

Out of meadowlands it’s a rookie line. Egg harbor it’s 50/50, no one wants to really do it anyway. Between people doing crack, the fentanyl ods, smoking weed, a lot of ops said to hell with it. Last sept I pick off of it to the 313/315.

Edited May 22, 2022 by 553 Bridgeton

[Lawrence St]

12 minutes ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

Out of meadowlands it’s a rookie line. Egg harbor it’s 50/50, no one wants to really do it anyway. Between people doing crack, the fentanyl ods, smoking weed, a lot of ops said to hell with it. Last sept I pick off of it to the 313/315.

I know a guy who works out of Meadowlands who loves that line, and he started 4 months ago. He says it depends on the run you do, as the later your shift is the less likely you'll encounter a problem like that.

[BreeddekalbL]

2 hours ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

Out of meadowlands it’s a rookie line. Egg harbor it’s 50/50, no one wants to really do it anyway. Between people doing crack, the fentanyl ods, smoking weed, a lot of ops said to hell with it. Last sept I pick off of it to the 313/315.

How many trips do you do on that run? And it looks like you get a long time in the seat

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I know a guy who works out of Meadowlands who loves that line, and he started 4 months ago. He says it depends on the run you do, as the later your shift is the less likely you'll encounter a problem like that.

Interesting 

[B35 via Church]

On 5/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

would it even be worth it to split off the wildwood section and the 319 and let it be its own route 

also same can be said of the nwk and jersey city section or eliminate that?

So, have all #319 trips do PABT -  Atlantic City, is what you're basically getting at....

Carving a separate route from the #319's portion between Wildwood & Atlantic City would be massively wasteful for an entity as large as NJT... I could *maybe* see a private carrier (something like a Cape May County shuttle) willing to take on a route like that... Maybe...

As far as intrastate service from NNJ to AC, getting rid of those trips outright, I don't see that going over all too well - even though the NY-AC patronage obviously dwarfs the intrastate #319's.... At the same time, NJT won't add anymore service if it were to be split off into its own route (if that's what you're thinking with that).... It would be a money loser for NJT to cut some amount of NY-AC trips to have those same # of trips run out of Newark/JC instead....

On 5/21/2022 at 1:29 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

Yep, I bet the 319 is a senior route 

Not the first time I've heard this sentiment....  The thought process appears to be that of, a route not making a lot of stops, makes it a surefire candidate for a quote-unquote senior line.... It's not always the case....

It is what it is, but I never really got the why folks in this online transit community (not just this forum) are as enamored with "senior lines" anyway....

3 hours ago, go25 said:

You can thank the HBLR being extended towards North Bergen as the main reason

Exactly....

Same reason for the #86's modification (which he inquired about 2 weeks or so ago, regarding it (not) running to Nungessers)....

[BreeddekalbL]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

So, have all #319 trips do PABT -  Atlantic City, is what you're basically getting at....

Carving a separate route from the #319's portion between Wildwood & Atlantic City would be massively wasteful for an entity as large as NJT... I could *maybe* see a private carrier (something like a Cape May County shuttle) willing to take on a route like that... Maybe...

As far as intrastate service from NNJ to AC, getting rid of those trips outright, I don't see that going over all too well - even though the NY-AC patronage obviously dwarfs the intrastate #319's.... At the same time, NJT won't add anymore service if it were to be split off into its own route (if that's what you're thinking with that).... It would be a money loser for NJT to cut some amount of NY-AC trips to have those same # of trips run out of Newark/JC instead....

Not the first time I've heard this sentiment....  The thought process appears to be that of, a route not making a lot of stops, makes it a surefire candidate for a quote-unquote senior line.... It's not always the case....

It is what it is, but I never really got the why folks in this online transit community (not just this forum) are as enamored with "senior lines" anyway....

basically i figured splitting some stuff off so they have their own concentration etc and to answer the ac to nnj if the demand is there have them go meet the 67 at toms river.

and the fascination with "senior routes" is the fact that if they think they can drive they want the route cause its easy etc

Edited May 22, 2022 by BreeddekalbL

[B35 via Church]

26 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

basically i figured splitting some stuff off so they have their own concentration etc

So that would be a yes.

26 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

....and to answer the ac to nnj if the demand is there have them go meet the 67 at toms river.

#319 is a commuter express, the #67 OTOH is a commuter local at best.... Good luck getting folks to take the #319 from AC to Toms River, to then take the entire #67 to Newark (or Jersey City).... Its routing between Toms River & Lakewood alone would be a deterrent for NNJ patrons - Never mind going on a mini tour of Freehold boro & EWR after the fact... Some tend to forget that the #67 serves EWR....

26 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

and the fascination with "senior routes" is the fact that if they think they can drive they want the route cause its easy etc

I get the whole *senior line = easy* fallacy.... What I'm saying is, IDK why the concept of "senior lines" is even a talking point, let alone continue to be.... Nobody ever really brings up rookie lines, or mid-career lines (lol) for example, but there has always been this certain level of curiosity for what lines the more senior op's are more apt to wanting to operate...

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with them thinking that they can drive some route.

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

So that would be a yes.

#319 is a commuter express, the #67 OTOH is a commuter local at best.... Good luck getting folks to take the #319 from AC to Toms River, to then take the entire #67 to Newark (or Jersey City).... Its routing between Toms River & Lakewood alone would be a deterrent for NNJ patrons - Never mind going on a mini tour of Freehold boro & EWR after the fact... Some tend to forget that the #67 serves EWR....

I get the whole *senior line = easy* fallacy.... What I'm saying is, IDK why the concept of "senior lines" is even a talking point, let alone continue to be.... Nobody ever really brings up rookie lines, or mid-career lines (lol) for example, but there has always been this certain level of curiosity for what lines the more senior op's are more apt to wanting to operate...

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with them thinking that they can drive some route.

IMHO I think the entire “seniority” system is outdated. We should be assigning runs that best fit peoples strong suits. I know someone that’s great at driving artics but not at NABI’s, and someone who’s great at driving NABI’s but not artics.

[161 New York]

On 5/3/2022 at 3:26 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

I have a proposal on the 161

would it be worth it to just add a stop to the american dream mall and elimnate the 355? and im sure they will wack the 356 also .

purpose is to cut the "premium fare" on the 355 by eliminating the route and the 356 also and free up more buses 

going nb to patterson would exit at the interchange to the mall follow regular route like 85 to stand ,then head north on stand then head north on american dream way to turn right onto plaza M which becomes plaza K turn left onto N connection road bear right then turn left onto patterson plank road then turn right onto washington ave to proceed regular route .

 

to New york regular route to W peripheral road exit Right on W peripheral road to road D then turn right on road D then road D becomes E peripheral rd left at american drean way then bear left to stand, Head north On american drean way to turn right on plaza M then bear left to plaza L then turn left on road D to rt 120 on ramp then regular route.

Leave the 161 alone, the route works as intended, but 24/7 service is warranted (the service span was creeping in that direction pre-corona).  Service on weekends (and off peak to NY on weekdays) is barely sufficient as is. The riders to and from industrial areas of Carlstadt, Moonachie, Little Ferry and Teterboro to North Bergen/Union City make up a significant number of riders on that stretch. Adding shoppers/tourists (and bags/purchases) to the 161 on heavy or even moderately busy days will unacceptably delay service to those going to NY from Paterson, Elmwood Park etc... as a large number of passengers will to have to exit and re-enter, especially at Bergenline to accommodate those alighting who may be seated towards the rear in addition to the dwell time in American Dream.

Those originating from Route 46 (west of Teterboro) have the option of transferring to the 772.

The 356 is temporarily discontinued. The 772 should resume travel to Secaucus, even before corona (as it did previously) but with very limited stops between East Rutherford and SEC. 

 

Quote

IMHO I think the entire “seniority” system is outdated. We should be assigning runs that best fit peoples strong suits. I know someone that’s great at driving artics but not at NABI’s, and someone who’s great at driving NABI’s but not artics.

Disagree. This would lead to favourtism. I work out of Staten Island (TA) and I actually (think) I drive an express bus (Prevost) better than a local bus (Nova Bus), but I choose local work because of how the schedules (paddle) are structured and my work is relatively "easy".

Edited May 23, 2022 by 161 New York

[BreeddekalbL]

13 hours ago, 161 New York said:

Leave the 161 alone, the route works as intended, but 24/7 service is warranted (the service span was creeping in that direction pre-corona).  Service on weekends (and off peak to NY on weekdays) is barely sufficient as is. The riders to and from industrial areas of Carlstadt, Moonachie, Little Ferry and Teterboro to North Bergen/Union City make up a significant number of riders on that stretch. Adding shoppers/tourists (and bags/purchases) to the 161 on heavy or even moderately busy days will unacceptably delay service to those going to NY from Paterson, Elmwood Park etc... as a large number of passengers will to have to exit and re-enter, especially at Bergenline to accommodate those alighting who may be seated towards the rear in addition to the dwell time in American Dream.

Those originating from Route 46 (west of Teterboro) have the option of transferring to the 772.

The 356 is temporarily discontinued. The 772 should resume travel to Secaucus, even before corona (as it did previously) but with very limited stops between East Rutherford and SEC. 

 

Disagree. This would lead to favourtism. I work out of Staten Island (TA) and I actually (think) I drive an express bus (Prevost) better than a local bus (Nova Bus), but I choose local work because of how the schedules (paddle) are structured and my work is relatively "easy".

Is the 355 even necessary with its gimmick fares cause its cheaper to go through Hoboken and i only suggested it cause it gives em a bus from new York and they dont have to deal with that gimmick fare.

And i agree regarding the seniority .

[BreeddekalbL]

would it even be worth it to eliminate the 108 on that there are transportation alternatives to ny such as the train and light rail at broad street or the 99 to the lightrail

[go25]

1 hour ago, BreeddekalbL said:

would it even be worth it to eliminate the 108 on that there are transportation alternatives to ny such as the train and light rail at broad street or the 99 to the lightrail

No, because the 108 gives people an option to go to/from Union City, something that NJT Rail doesn't offer

[BreeddekalbL]

4 hours ago, go25 said:

No, because the 108 gives people an option to go to/from Union City, something that NJT Rail doesn't offer

Does the majority of the riderbase go to union City? 

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

would it even be worth it to eliminate the 108 on that there are transportation alternatives to ny such as the train and light rail at broad street or the 99 to the lightrail

There is a place for the #108 in the network (separate of being alternatives to PATH & NJT RR), so no... What I will say is, I think it should be much more than (just utilized as) a PABT/Union City - Newark-Penn shuttle.... It's more or less an afterthought in the Ironbound & it doesn't serve much of the city (Newark) after serving Newark-Penn....

52 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Does the majority of the riderbase go to union City? 

The majority of the riderbase rides b/w Newark-Penn & PABT... While there's definitely a noticeable amt. of Union CIty - Newark patronage, there's still more Newark-Penn usage to/from PABT....