R10 2952 Posted October 31, 2013 Share #326 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) But downtown IND trains move at 30-39 MPH from 125th to midway between 86th and 81st. That's where it is smooth/fast until midway between 86th and 81st. The slower part is around the bend south of 72nd. For uptown, the trains go about 30-39 or so MPH from 59th until midway out of 103rd or 110th. The slower part is 116th, due to the curve between that station and 125th. Those timers only loose you about a minute or two. I've been on many rides where they get between 125th and 59th in 7 minutes so its not really as slow as others make it out to be. If the don't go their usual speeds on the CPW Express and keep on braking, then its obvious that there's another train ahead which forces the timers to prevent the train behind from rocking and create more space between the two. Yes, but I've heard from multiple sources that trains along that stretch used to hit 45-48 back in the day. So yeah, compared to thirty years ago when we had graffiti-covered trains that were supposedly on their last legs, the current speeds are rather low, which is just sad. Speed should be balanced with safety, but the MTA has tipped the scale far too much in favor of 'safety' in the past twenty years. Edited October 31, 2013 by R10 1989 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted October 31, 2013 Share #327 Posted October 31, 2013 Yes, but I've heard from multiple sources that trains along that stretch used to hit 45-48 back in the day. So yeah, compared to thirty years ago when we had graffiti-covered trains that were supposedly on their last legs, the current speeds are rather low, which is just sad. Speed should be balanced with safety, but the MTA has tipped the scale far too much in favor of 'safety' in the past twenty years. Well as the saying goes in the spate of accidents that has historically occurred, 'CYA' That's the basis for the changes in signaling and safety protocols in regards to speed limits through junctions and tight radial curves by the installation of timers. In many areas it makes no damn sense I know believe me but hey that's legalistics and transit politics for you . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneggsnPelham Posted October 31, 2013 Share #328 Posted October 31, 2013 @Realizm: Agreed. This is slightly off topic, but when constructing my layouts for Trainz and looking at some diagrams when I lay down signals, many of these areas make me scratch my head. Case in point: really long straight track sections where the grade isn't that steep and you get a loooooooong string of 2-shots or 1-shots. Like you said, tight curves and junctions make sense because of prior negative history, but those straight sections don't (especially if they're on the express tracks and another express station is about 4 stops away). -A 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10 2952 Posted November 2, 2013 Share #329 Posted November 2, 2013 In many areas it makes no damn sense I know believe me but hey that's legalistics and transit politics for you . Just because that's the way it is doesn't mean that's the way it should be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted November 2, 2013 Share #330 Posted November 2, 2013 Just because that's the way it is doesn't mean that's the way it should be. That was my point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted November 2, 2013 Share #331 Posted November 2, 2013 (edited) Also do not forget that train braking capabilities were modified in the early 1990s as well to create "smoother" stops. Thus the modification done was slower acceleration, lower top speed, and longer brakes to provide a smoother, more comfortable ride, but with less ability to make time. Signals were placed, and timers were installed accordingly to adapt the railroad to the new operating conditions. Are there timers that are not truly necessary in the system? Yes, and plenty of them. Some of the most "unnecessary" are ones enforcing slow speeds on steep downgrades to protect against station overruns. Those exist because too many people ran out of those stations, so the timer is there to guard against it. But others are there to protect leader trains from a rear end collision (by forcing a train to slow down in advance of the section that does not have a safe stopping distance at maximum possible speed), or to protect home signals and associated switches, 125th and Lexington is the legendary one I would have loved to operate pre-timers. Old timers who really love their job talk glowingly about it in a way that makes me wish I was there for it. Leaving 86th St. northbound, you have a straight shot downhill, you blow through 103/110, and then you have ANOTHER downhill north of 110 and flying straight into 125...almost entirely straight track except for a small, minor S curve to the right just south of 125. Motormen from the old days talk of regularly doing almost 60 approaching 125 (which I fully believe) Even with the "nerfed" state of the trains today AND the timers, I can get a good train up to ALMOST 50 - about 48 - on that stretch (the caveat is that your leader has to be completely out of 125th St. and then some, otherwise the signals will slow you down earlier, and force you to come in much slower). Of course you can't do anything like the old days anymore, since you've got the 3 timers from under 96th to 103. The other 3 approaching 125 are to protect the approach to 125. Edited November 2, 2013 by SubwayGuy 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted November 2, 2013 Share #332 Posted November 2, 2013 ^^^ Thank you this is good information here. I completely overlooked the purpose of timers on specifically straight runs on downgrades and it's purpose, to prevent station overruns as you were saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted December 20, 2013 Share #333 Posted December 20, 2013 Also do not forget that train braking capabilities were modified in the early 1990s as well to create "smoother" stops. Thus the modification done was slower acceleration, lower top speed, and longer brakes to provide a smoother, more comfortable ride, but with less ability to make time. Signals were placed, and timers were installed accordingly to adapt the railroad to the new operating conditions. Are there timers that are not truly necessary in the system? Yes, and plenty of them. Some of the most "unnecessary" are ones enforcing slow speeds on steep downgrades to protect against station overruns. Those exist because too many people ran out of those stations, so the timer is there to guard against it. But others are there to protect leader trains from a rear end collision (by forcing a train to slow down in advance of the section that does not have a safe stopping distance at maximum possible speed), or to protect home signals and associated switches, 125th and Lexington is the legendary one I would have loved to operate pre-timers. Old timers who really love their job talk glowingly about it in a way that makes me wish I was there for it. Leaving 86th St. northbound, you have a straight shot downhill, you blow through 103/110, and then you have ANOTHER downhill north of 110 and flying straight into 125...almost entirely straight track except for a small, minor S curve to the right just south of 125. Motormen from the old days talk of regularly doing almost 60 approaching 125 (which I fully believe) Even with the "nerfed" state of the trains today AND the timers, I can get a good train up to ALMOST 50 - about 48 - on that stretch (the caveat is that your leader has to be completely out of 125th St. and then some, otherwise the signals will slow you down earlier, and force you to come in much slower). Of course you can't do anything like the old days anymore, since you've got the 3 timers from under 96th to 103. The other 3 approaching 125 are to protect the approach to 125. Back in the 1980s, the timers were the same between 96th and 103rd but there was nothing but green to 125th where the R-62s and the M&K Rebuilds reached 55MPH going into 125th. I used to love that. I heard there are new timers on the F Northbound from Ditmas to Church Ave. When I worked the F 2 picks ago, the timer would clear at 30MPH and I could get an R-160 into Church at 36-38MPH. From what I hear now, you are lucky to get it to 32MPH there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted October 20, 2014 Share #334 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) What ever happened to this thread? I was on an R62 yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future... Edited October 20, 2014 by MHV9218 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted October 21, 2014 Share #335 Posted October 21, 2014 What ever happened to this thread? I was on an R62 yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future... I've hit 47-48 on that stretch on the 3 before, but there's a timer in Christopher you have to slow down for. It clears at 28 comfortably. Hanging back when following your leader is always a good strategy. It allows them to get ahead a bit, then when you see more greens you can pick it up and stay close without having to slow down for the yellows and reds. For new people it's smart because they don't run the risk of getting tripped by a hidden red they "didn't" see until the last minute. The timers in the tube on the 3 are a bit tricky southbound, but northbound they're pretty fair...I would take the first one at about 23, then the last 2 at 26, wrapping it up a few car lengths before the last timer so that it clears green in your window and the train gets up to about 40-41 before the grade changes and goes up hill. Coast at the 20 miles sign (the 20 miles is for the curve, and you'll come into the curve at 20 if you do this) and hold 2 points all the way into Wall St., you'll be doing 15 by the time you reach that sign south of Wall St. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biGC323232 Posted October 21, 2014 Share #336 Posted October 21, 2014 What ever happened to this thread? I was on an R62 yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future... I agree.. trains really moves once it leaves clark st... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted October 21, 2014 Share #337 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Hey SubwayGuy, what is the purpose for the timers going Queensbound after Queens Plaza? Edited October 21, 2014 by Union Tpke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted October 21, 2014 Share #338 Posted October 21, 2014 I've hit 47-48 on that stretch on the 3 before, but there's a timer in Christopher you have to slow down for. It clears at 28 comfortably. Hanging back when following your leader is always a good strategy. It allows them to get ahead a bit, then when you see more greens you can pick it up and stay close without having to slow down for the yellows and reds. For new people it's smart because they don't run the risk of getting tripped by a hidden red they "didn't" see until the last minute. The timers in the tube on the 3 are a bit tricky southbound, but northbound they're pretty fair...I would take the first one at about 23, then the last 2 at 26, wrapping it up a few car lengths before the last timer so that it clears green in your window and the train gets up to about 40-41 before the grade changes and goes up hill. Coast at the 20 miles sign (the 20 miles is for the curve, and you'll come into the curve at 20 if you do this) and hold 2 points all the way into Wall St., you'll be doing 15 by the time you reach that sign south of Wall St. Interesting to hear, always appreciate the in-depth responses. Surprised to hear the N/B Cham-14 can get that quick--I usually think of the S/B as the faster stretch, where 49-50 isn't impossible with a good crew and set. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted October 22, 2014 Share #339 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Hey SubwayGuy, what is the purpose for the timers going Queensbound after Queens Plaza? Which track? I haven't been on the R in a while, but on the E (express track) those aren't actually timers, they just behave like them. They're approach signals that protect the switches where the the 63 St. tube tracks join the Queens Blvd. line. As long as the lineup is established to the home signal south of 36th, they'll clear off as the train approaches. There's a signal like that leaving 7th Ave. going Queensbound on the E, as well as one of the homeballs north of 59 on the A (express track) going south. There are several others as well, come to think of it, but these are some of the more obvious ones. You won't see a posted GT sign, or any aspect associated with time, but the signal starts to clear when the train bridges a particular IJ as it approaches. As long as the train doesn't come flying through (and in some cases it can), they clear. However, if the home signal isn't cleared off for the train (IE a train is crossing in front of you), the approach signals won't clear at all. Leaving Queens Plaza is one of those areas where a T/O has to be careful since you can't "assume" you have the lineup until the approach signals clear (the controlling home signal is around a curve). Leaving 7th Ave. on the E, you can see the home signal, so many T/O's are more aggressive approaching that location, and the approaches will clear off as the train closes in on it. Edited October 22, 2014 by SubwayGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted October 23, 2014 Share #340 Posted October 23, 2014 Which track? I haven't been on the R in a while, but on the E (express track) those aren't actually timers, they just behave like them. They're approach signals that protect the switches where the the 63 St. tube tracks join the Queens Blvd. line. As long as the lineup is established to the home signal south of 36th, they'll clear off as the train approaches. There's a signal like that leaving 7th Ave. going Queensbound on the E, as well as one of the homeballs north of 59 on the A (express track) going south. There are several others as well, come to think of it, but these are some of the more obvious ones. You won't see a posted GT sign, or any aspect associated with time, but the signal starts to clear when the train bridges a particular IJ as it approaches. As long as the train doesn't come flying through (and in some cases it can), they clear. However, if the home signal isn't cleared off for the train (IE a train is crossing in front of you), the approach signals won't clear at all. Leaving Queens Plaza is one of those areas where a T/O has to be careful since you can't "assume" you have the lineup until the approach signals clear (the controlling home signal is around a curve). Leaving 7th Ave. on the E, you can see the home signal, so many T/O's are more aggressive approaching that location, and the approaches will clear off as the train closes in on it. thanks for clarifying it for me and I was refering to the E track. BTW what are the purposes of wheel detectors like at Queens Plaza? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted October 23, 2014 Share #341 Posted October 23, 2014 thanks for clarifying it for me and I was refering to the E track. BTW what are the purposes of wheel detectors like at Queens Plaza? Leave it to the experts on the topic to answer fully, but I always assumed those were because when pulling into the station on the R, the tail of the train is still clearing the switch from the 11 st cut. Interestingly, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure those WD's are always active, as I've definitely been on a fair number of trains that came in faster than 10. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 19, 2019 Share #342 Posted July 19, 2019 I know this thread is ancient, but it remains a completely useful resource with the most authoritative accounts of subway speed on the site, and it's even more interesting reading some of these numbers in the wake of the current re-assessment and removal of certain timers. Think it's worth bumping it for those who weren't on the site any number of years back. Just wanted to note that the extended overnight is hitting some incredible speeds given the tracks are empty and the trains are empty as well. I was on a set tonight that hit 49mph going 72-42, would have gone even faster but the T/O took it off a point around 50th St. Even rarer–something I've never seen before–hit 49mph going 34-14 as well. Absolutely flew into the station. Some of these R62s are still kicking it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subway4832 Posted July 19, 2019 Share #343 Posted July 19, 2019 Damn, must've had a really good train then, most of the 62's Ive had were barely touching 45. Also, 49 between 34th and 14th is unheard of, pretty impressive, most of the 142's don't even get that high on that segment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah Billings Posted March 13, 2023 Share #344 Posted March 13, 2023 Nothing compares to the 2/3 7th Avenue Express. It goes consistently above 45mph and once hit 62mph between 96 St and 72 St, where it is usually the fastest. The Queens Boulevard line(E,F) is also fast, so is 4th Avenue(D/N), Lexington Avenue(4,5), and 125 St-59 St(A/D), but the 2/3 are so consistently fast and convenient. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacster Posted March 17, 2023 Share #345 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) I was on an E on QBL from FH to QP and the fastest allowed is 45 that I saw on the screen under CBTC. It felt faster. The fastest train I've been on is the Shanghai Maglev, 269.2 mph. Now THAT is fast. The phone map couldn't keep up with the speed, and that's my cycling app that measured it. My colleagues took a cab, I walked to the metro, about 4 blocks, took it to the maglev station which was a lot further than I thought, I just missed the maglev so I had to wait for the next one, and then the maglev to the airport. I still beat them there. Shanghai Maglev by zacfi2000, on Flickr Edited March 17, 2023 by zacster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxwell179 Posted August 1, 2023 Share #346 Posted August 1, 2023 https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvXiBoOAUAM/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacster Posted August 1, 2023 Share #347 Posted August 1, 2023 Can the R68s on the B even reach 50mph? That curve at Beverley Road is posted as that according to the video. I've stood at Cortelyou as a B train passed by many times and it never seemed to be going very fast. I've been riding the Brighton line my entire life, always living near a stop. It used to be really fast but the R68s and the speed restriction made it feel like a crawl sometimes. Maybe when the put R211s on the B (just speculation) it'll feel fast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan Railer Posted August 3, 2023 Share #348 Posted August 3, 2023 On 8/1/2023 at 9:07 AM, zacster said: Can the R68s on the B even reach 50mph? That curve at Beverley Road is posted as that according to the video. I've stood at Cortelyou as a B train passed by many times and it never seemed to be going very fast. I've been riding the Brighton line my entire life, always living near a stop. It used to be really fast but the R68s and the speed restriction made it feel like a crawl sometimes. Maybe when the put R211s on the B (just speculation) it'll feel fast. Nowadays, without field shunting, no. The best you can get on level track with the average SMEE set is 47-49 mph. That's what the R46s on the A balance out at on the rockaway flats. The NTTs are the same way now too; the 211s make the same speed on the flats as the 46s do. They've been computer limited to match the average SMEE top speed, although they do accelerate a little faster in the lower speed ranges. I remember the R179s hitting 52-54 mph on the flats before they got dumbed down too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacster Posted August 5, 2023 Share #349 Posted August 5, 2023 That's what I thought but I'm also thinking that if they are posting a 50 speed, they are anticipating that the train can do 50 too. If it's computer limited it can be easily changed. Also, my understanding is acceleration is faster in CBTC territory even if the top speed isn't. I can feel that when I ride the L train, and it seemed that way on the E too on QB where it is slower on Archer but then faster once on QB proper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan Railer Posted August 6, 2023 Share #350 Posted August 6, 2023 15 hours ago, zacster said: That's what I thought but I'm also thinking that if they are posting a 50 speed, they are anticipating that the train can do 50 too. If it's computer limited it can be easily changed. Also, my understanding is acceleration is faster in CBTC territory even if the top speed isn't. I can feel that when I ride the L train, and it seemed that way on the E too on QB where it is slower on Archer but then faster once on QB proper. Yes, the performance curve is higher when the train is in ATO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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