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The Official SPEED Thread


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But downtown IND trains move at 30-39 MPH from 125th to midway between 86th and 81st. That's where it is smooth/fast until midway between 86th and 81st. The slower part is around the bend south of 72nd.

 

For uptown, the trains go about 30-39 or so MPH from 59th until midway out of 103rd or 110th. The slower part is 116th, due to the curve between that station and 125th. Those timers only loose you about a minute or two. I've been on many (A)(D) rides where they get between 125th and 59th in 7 minutes so its not really as slow as others make it out to be.

 

If the (A)(D) don't go their usual speeds on the CPW Express and keep on braking, then its obvious that there's another train ahead which forces the timers to prevent the train behind from rocking and create more space between the two.

 

Yes, but I've heard from multiple sources that trains along that stretch used to hit 45-48 back in the day.  So yeah, compared to thirty years ago when we had graffiti-covered trains that were supposedly on their last legs, the current speeds are rather low, which is just sad.  Speed should be balanced with safety, but the MTA has tipped the scale far too much in favor of 'safety' in the past twenty years.

Edited by R10 1989
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Yes, but I've heard from multiple sources that trains along that stretch used to hit 45-48 back in the day.  So yeah, compared to thirty years ago when we had graffiti-covered trains that were supposedly on their last legs, the current speeds are rather low, which is just sad.  Speed should be balanced with safety, but the MTA has tipped the scale far too much in favor of 'safety' in the past twenty years.

Well as the saying goes in the spate of accidents that has historically occurred, 'CYA' That's the basis for the changes in signaling and safety protocols in regards to speed limits through junctions and tight radial curves by the installation of timers. In many areas it makes no damn sense I know believe me but hey that's legalistics and transit politics for you .

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@Realizm: Agreed. This is slightly off topic, but when constructing my layouts for Trainz and looking at some diagrams when I lay down signals, many of these areas make me scratch my head. Case in point: really long straight track sections where the grade isn't that steep and you get a loooooooong string of 2-shots or 1-shots. Like you said, tight curves and junctions make sense because of prior negative history, but those straight sections don't (especially if they're on the express tracks and another express station is about 4 stops away).

 

-A  :ph34r:

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Also do not forget that train braking capabilities were modified in the early 1990s as well to create "smoother" stops. Thus the modification done was slower acceleration, lower top speed, and longer brakes to provide a smoother, more comfortable ride, but with less ability to make time. Signals were placed, and timers were installed accordingly to adapt the railroad to the new operating conditions.

 

Are there timers that are not truly necessary in the system? Yes, and plenty of them. Some of the most "unnecessary" are ones enforcing slow speeds on steep downgrades to protect against station overruns. Those exist because too many people ran out of those stations, so the timer is there to guard against it. But others are there to protect leader trains from a rear end collision (by forcing a train to slow down in advance of the section that does not have a safe stopping distance at maximum possible speed), or to protect home signals and associated switches,

 

125th and Lexington is the legendary one I would have loved to operate pre-timers. Old timers who really love their job talk glowingly about it in a way that makes me wish I was there for it. Leaving 86th St. northbound, you have a straight shot downhill, you blow through 103/110, and then you have ANOTHER downhill north of 110 and flying straight into 125...almost entirely straight track except for a small, minor S curve to the right just south of 125. Motormen from the old days talk of regularly doing almost 60 approaching 125 (which I fully believe) Even with the "nerfed" state of the trains today AND the timers, I can get a good train up to ALMOST 50 - about 48 - on that stretch (the caveat is that your leader has to be completely out of 125th St. and then some, otherwise the signals will slow you down earlier, and force you to come in much slower). Of course you can't do anything like the old days anymore, since you've got the 3 timers from under 96th to 103. The other 3 approaching 125 are to protect the approach to 125.

Edited by SubwayGuy
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  • 1 month later...

Also do not forget that train braking capabilities were modified in the early 1990s as well to create "smoother" stops. Thus the modification done was slower acceleration, lower top speed, and longer brakes to provide a smoother, more comfortable ride, but with less ability to make time. Signals were placed, and timers were installed accordingly to adapt the railroad to the new operating conditions.

 

Are there timers that are not truly necessary in the system? Yes, and plenty of them. Some of the most "unnecessary" are ones enforcing slow speeds on steep downgrades to protect against station overruns. Those exist because too many people ran out of those stations, so the timer is there to guard against it. But others are there to protect leader trains from a rear end collision (by forcing a train to slow down in advance of the section that does not have a safe stopping distance at maximum possible speed), or to protect home signals and associated switches,

 

125th and Lexington is the legendary one I would have loved to operate pre-timers. Old timers who really love their job talk glowingly about it in a way that makes me wish I was there for it. Leaving 86th St. northbound, you have a straight shot downhill, you blow through 103/110, and then you have ANOTHER downhill north of 110 and flying straight into 125...almost entirely straight track except for a small, minor S curve to the right just south of 125. Motormen from the old days talk of regularly doing almost 60 approaching 125 (which I fully believe) Even with the "nerfed" state of the trains today AND the timers, I can get a good train up to ALMOST 50 - about 48 - on that stretch (the caveat is that your leader has to be completely out of 125th St. and then some, otherwise the signals will slow you down earlier, and force you to come in much slower). Of course you can't do anything like the old days anymore, since you've got the 3 timers from under 96th to 103. The other 3 approaching 125 are to protect the approach to 125.

Back in the 1980s, the timers were the same between 96th and 103rd but there was nothing but green to 125th where the R-62s and the M&K Rebuilds reached 55MPH going into 125th. I used to love that.

 

I heard there are new timers on the F Northbound from Ditmas to Church Ave. When I worked the F 2 picks ago, the timer would clear at 30MPH and I could get an R-160 into Church at 36-38MPH. From what I hear now, you are lucky to get it to 32MPH there.

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  • 10 months later...

What ever happened to this thread?

 

I was on an R62 (3) yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. 

 

Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the (7) the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future...

Edited by MHV9218
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What ever happened to this thread?

 

I was on an R62 (3) yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. 

 

Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the (7) the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future...

 

I've hit 47-48 on that stretch on the 3 before, but there's a timer in Christopher you have to slow down for. It clears at 28 comfortably.

 

Hanging back when following your leader is always a good strategy. It allows them to get ahead a bit, then when you see more greens you can pick it up and stay close without having to slow down for the yellows and reds. For new people it's smart because they don't run the risk of getting tripped by a hidden red they "didn't" see until the last minute.

 

The timers in the tube on the 3 are a bit tricky southbound, but northbound they're pretty fair...I would take the first one at about 23, then the last 2 at 26, wrapping it up a few car lengths before the last timer so that it clears green in your window and the train gets up to about 40-41 before the grade changes and goes up hill. Coast at the 20 miles sign (the 20 miles is for the curve, and you'll come into the curve at 20 if you do this) and hold 2 points all the way into Wall St., you'll be doing 15 by the time you reach that sign south of Wall St.

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What ever happened to this thread?

 

I was on an R62 (3) yesterday that ran at 44-45 mph on the northbound Chambers to 14th section. Is that quick? I usually think of the southbound as the faster part. The operator purposefully crawled through Wall and some others to get some space from the leader, worked out well. Had to hit full service to clear a timer under the river, though. 

 

Should also add, textbook example of a broken speedo on the (7) the other week, cleared the downhill on the roller coaster express at "88 mph," felt like Back to the Future...

 

I agree.. (3) trains really moves once it leaves clark st...

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I've hit 47-48 on that stretch on the 3 before, but there's a timer in Christopher you have to slow down for. It clears at 28 comfortably.

 

Hanging back when following your leader is always a good strategy. It allows them to get ahead a bit, then when you see more greens you can pick it up and stay close without having to slow down for the yellows and reds. For new people it's smart because they don't run the risk of getting tripped by a hidden red they "didn't" see until the last minute.

 

The timers in the tube on the 3 are a bit tricky southbound, but northbound they're pretty fair...I would take the first one at about 23, then the last 2 at 26, wrapping it up a few car lengths before the last timer so that it clears green in your window and the train gets up to about 40-41 before the grade changes and goes up hill. Coast at the 20 miles sign (the 20 miles is for the curve, and you'll come into the curve at 20 if you do this) and hold 2 points all the way into Wall St., you'll be doing 15 by the time you reach that sign south of Wall St.

 

Interesting to hear, always appreciate the in-depth responses. Surprised to hear the N/B Cham-14 can get that quick--I usually think of the S/B as the faster stretch, where 49-50 isn't impossible with a good crew and set. 

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Hey SubwayGuy, what is the purpose for the timers going Queensbound after Queens Plaza?

 

Which track? I haven't been on the R in a while, but on the E (express track) those aren't actually timers, they just behave like them. They're approach signals that protect the switches where the the 63 St. tube tracks join the Queens Blvd. line. As long as the lineup is established to the home signal south of 36th, they'll clear off as the train approaches.

 

There's a signal like that leaving 7th Ave. going Queensbound on the E, as well as one of the homeballs north of 59 on the A (express track) going south. There are several others as well, come to think of it, but these are some of the more obvious ones. You won't see a posted GT sign, or any aspect associated with time, but the signal starts to clear when the train bridges a particular IJ as it approaches. As long as the train doesn't come flying through (and in some cases it can), they clear. However, if the home signal isn't cleared off for the train (IE a train is crossing in front of you), the approach signals won't clear at all.

 

Leaving Queens Plaza is one of those areas where a T/O has to be careful since you can't "assume" you have the lineup until the approach signals clear (the controlling home signal is around a curve). Leaving 7th Ave. on the E, you can see the home signal, so many T/O's are more aggressive approaching that location, and the approaches will clear off as the train closes in on it.

Edited by SubwayGuy
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Which track? I haven't been on the R in a while, but on the E (express track) those aren't actually timers, they just behave like them. They're approach signals that protect the switches where the the 63 St. tube tracks join the Queens Blvd. line. As long as the lineup is established to the home signal south of 36th, they'll clear off as the train approaches.

 

There's a signal like that leaving 7th Ave. going Queensbound on the E, as well as one of the homeballs north of 59 on the A (express track) going south. There are several others as well, come to think of it, but these are some of the more obvious ones. You won't see a posted GT sign, or any aspect associated with time, but the signal starts to clear when the train bridges a particular IJ as it approaches. As long as the train doesn't come flying through (and in some cases it can), they clear. However, if the home signal isn't cleared off for the train (IE a train is crossing in front of you), the approach signals won't clear at all.

 

Leaving Queens Plaza is one of those areas where a T/O has to be careful since you can't "assume" you have the lineup until the approach signals clear (the controlling home signal is around a curve). Leaving 7th Ave. on the E, you can see the home signal, so many T/O's are more aggressive approaching that location, and the approaches will clear off as the train closes in on it.

thanks for clarifying it for me and I was refering to the E track. BTW what are the purposes of wheel detectors like at Queens Plaza?

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thanks for clarifying it for me and I was refering to the E track. BTW what are the purposes of wheel detectors like at Queens Plaza?

Leave it to the experts on the topic to answer fully, but I always assumed those were because when pulling into the station on the R, the tail of the train is still clearing the switch from the 11 st cut. Interestingly, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure those WD's are always active, as I've definitely been on a fair number of trains that came in faster than 10.

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  • 4 years later...

I know this thread is ancient, but it remains a completely useful resource with the most authoritative accounts of subway speed on the site, and it's even more interesting reading some of these numbers in the wake of the current re-assessment and removal of certain timers. Think it's worth bumping it for those who weren't on the site any number of years back. 

Just wanted to note that the extended overnight (3) is hitting some incredible speeds given the tracks are empty and the trains are empty as well. I was on a set tonight that hit 49mph going 72-42, would have gone even faster but the T/O took it off a point around 50th St. Even rarer–something I've never seen before–hit 49mph going 34-14 as well. Absolutely flew into the station. Some of these R62s are still kicking it. 

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  • 3 years later...

Nothing compares to the 2/3 7th Avenue Express. It goes consistently above 45mph and once hit 62mph between 96 St and 72 St, where it is usually the fastest. The Queens Boulevard line(E,F) is also fast, so is 4th Avenue(D/N), Lexington Avenue(4,5), and 125 St-59 St(A/D), but the 2/3 are so consistently fast and convenient. 

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I was on an E on QBL from FH to QP and the fastest allowed is 45 that I saw on the screen under CBTC.  It felt faster.

The fastest train I've been on is the Shanghai Maglev, 269.2 mph.  Now THAT is fast.  The phone map couldn't keep up with the speed, and that's my cycling app that measured it.  My colleagues took a cab, I walked to the metro, about 4 blocks, took it to the maglev station which was a lot further than I thought, I just missed the maglev so I had to wait for the next one, and then the maglev to the airport.  I still beat them there. 

 

48515487231_f1d63cc88d_c.jpgShanghai Maglev by zacfi2000, on Flickr

Edited by zacster
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  • 4 months later...

Can the R68s on the B even reach 50mph?  That curve at Beverley Road is posted as that according to the video.  I've stood at Cortelyou as a B train passed by many times and it never seemed to be going very fast.

I've been riding the Brighton line my entire life, always living near a stop.  It used to be really fast but the R68s and the speed restriction made it feel like a crawl sometimes.  Maybe when the put R211s on the B (just speculation) it'll feel fast.

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On 8/1/2023 at 9:07 AM, zacster said:

Can the R68s on the B even reach 50mph?  That curve at Beverley Road is posted as that according to the video.  I've stood at Cortelyou as a B train passed by many times and it never seemed to be going very fast.

I've been riding the Brighton line my entire life, always living near a stop.  It used to be really fast but the R68s and the speed restriction made it feel like a crawl sometimes.  Maybe when the put R211s on the B (just speculation) it'll feel fast.

Nowadays, without field shunting, no. The best you can get on level track with the average SMEE set is 47-49 mph. That's what the R46s on the A balance out at on the rockaway flats.

The NTTs are the same way now too; the 211s make the same speed on the  flats as the 46s do. They've been computer limited to match the average SMEE  top speed, although they do accelerate a little faster in the lower speed ranges. I remember the R179s hitting 52-54 mph on the flats before they got dumbed down too.

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That's what I thought but I'm also thinking that if they are posting a 50 speed, they are anticipating that the train can do 50 too.  If it's computer limited it can be easily changed.  Also, my understanding is acceleration is faster in CBTC territory even if the top speed isn't.  I can feel that when I ride the L train, and it seemed that way on the E too on QB where it is slower on Archer but then faster once on QB proper.

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15 hours ago, zacster said:

That's what I thought but I'm also thinking that if they are posting a 50 speed, they are anticipating that the train can do 50 too.  If it's computer limited it can be easily changed.  Also, my understanding is acceleration is faster in CBTC territory even if the top speed isn't.  I can feel that when I ride the L train, and it seemed that way on the E too on QB where it is slower on Archer but then faster once on QB proper.

Yes, the performance curve is higher when the train is in ATO.

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