TheSubwayStation Posted June 23, 2012 Share #1 Posted June 23, 2012 As a result of the weekend service thread, one issue that's been brought up is that waiting times can be too long because of trains that arrive behind schedule, even when there's enough scheduled service. There are some clear reasons for delays (door holding, flagging), but I have a hard time understanding what causes trains to be a full 10-15 minutes late. Can anybody help explain what these kinds of severe delays come from? Are there missing runs? Any information would be greatly appreciated. For those who feel that I don't provide any constructive input on these kinds of issues, well, here's what I've got to say, once and for all . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted June 23, 2012 Share #2 Posted June 23, 2012 In the last week, I've had two late clears, including one trip where I came in a full 40 minutes late. Track work/flagging, door holders and signal malfunctions (which require key-bys or call-ons to pass) are the usual culprits. Yesterday, tk E1 between Hoyt and Nevins was under water, which meant that 2/3's were turning in Manhattan, and 4/5's were crossing over to the local south of Nevins. The combination of the extra stops and passenger confusion and extra loads adds to the time, and the problem at Flatbush is they were only getting half the equipment that was scheduled to come down, so DEPARTURE times were even being pushed 10-15 minutes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share #3 Posted June 23, 2012 In the last week, I've had two late clears, including one trip where I came in a full 40 minutes late. Track work/flagging, door holders and signal malfunctions (which require key-bys or call-ons to pass) are the usual culprits. Yesterday, tk E1 between Hoyt and Nevins was under water, which meant that 2/3's were turning in Manhattan, and 4/5's were crossing over to the local south of Nevins. The combination of the extra stops and passenger confusion and extra loads adds to the time, and the problem at Flatbush is they were only getting half the equipment that was scheduled to come down, so DEPARTURE times were even being pushed 10-15 minutes back. Thanks for the info. One thing that people have talked about is how the subway's on-time performance is declining. What do you think has contributed to that? More crowds? More signal failures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted June 24, 2012 Share #4 Posted June 24, 2012 Timers, and ATS giving out holding lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted June 24, 2012 Share #5 Posted June 24, 2012 Re: Holding lights LOL at ATS giving out holding lights for northbound Nostrand Ave trains at Church Ave, three measly stops after the terminal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share #6 Posted June 24, 2012 Timers, and ATS giving out holding lights. Do you mean that when new timers are installed, the schedule isn't updated (so trains get behind schedule)? Also, I didn't think that many timers were installed in the past couple of years (most of them were in response to the big crashes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted June 24, 2012 Share #7 Posted June 24, 2012 Yeah if a train out of FLA gets a push in order to let another train come in, it will be held to time at Church during the off-peak hours. The worst ATS auto-hold is at Chambers St N/B. The schedules are written assuming that trains will be making a stop at Cortlandt, so almost every train gets to Chambers early and is held for a minute or two. This is why I'm now always taking my time leaving Ferry and Rector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted June 24, 2012 Share #8 Posted June 24, 2012 Hey its the Emm-Tee-Yaa getting with the future thats what all these folks was harping about right? "Other systems are so advanced over the NYC Subway" I Have heard and seen that said plenty of times... Heres a KEY folks if its done RIGHT its a good thing... Well they got it in the A Div mostly Enjoy waiting for that train... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share #9 Posted June 24, 2012 Yeah if a train out of FLA gets a push in order to let another train come in, it will be held to time at Church during the off-peak hours. The worst ATS auto-hold is at Chambers St N/B. The schedules are written assuming that trains will be making a stop at Cortlandt, so almost every train gets to Chambers early and is held for a minute or two. This is why I'm now always taking my time leaving Ferry and Rector. But how does this make trains late? Doesn't it just enforce what ATS thinks the schedule is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 24, 2012 Share #10 Posted June 24, 2012 I think a better question is why are there more and more signal problems? The has said that trains are becoming more and more delayed and signal problems seem to be one big reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JubaionBx12+SBS Posted June 24, 2012 Share #11 Posted June 24, 2012 There was one time where I was on the and it got held right before Gun Hill Rd and Morris Park for lengthy periods and crawled into East 180th going to Manhattan. There couldn't have been train traffic because I had to wait almost 15 minutes for the train and it was right before 4 pm so rush hour was about to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share #12 Posted June 24, 2012 I think a better question is why are there more and more signal problems? The has said that trains are becoming more and more delayed and signal problems seem to be one big reason. Are there more signal problems than there used to be? That's not the reason why Snowblock said that there are more delays. The increase could just as easily be from something else. EDIT: if you're referring to the skipped signal inspections that happened, how do we know that it's a new problem that didn't exist before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted June 24, 2012 Share #13 Posted June 24, 2012 Part of it might also be the habits of conductors and T/Os. I'm sure the same way you have the cautious drivers and the ones with a lead foot, I'm sure the same is true in the subway, to a certain extent (of course, there are timers and all that, but still) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted June 25, 2012 Share #14 Posted June 25, 2012 A trio of towers put me 8 minutes behind today, just to make a connection, and the connection could have been made with my follower, who was right behind me by then. Have no idea what that was about, and it was not a delay either ahead or behind me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 25, 2012 Share #15 Posted June 25, 2012 Are there more signal problems than there used to be? That's not the reason why Snowblock said that there are more delays. The increase could just as easily be from something else. EDIT: if you're referring to the skipped signal inspections that happened, how do we know that it's a new problem that didn't exist before? From my understanding there are. I won't go out on a limb and say that the bogus inspections are the cause for more signal problems because I can't substantiate that, but I would imagine from the amount of delays that I see when I check the website due to signal problems that it could be one main problem. A trio of towers put me 8 minutes behind today, just to make a connection, and the connection could have been made with my follower, who was right behind me by then. Have no idea what that was about, and it was not a delay either ahead or behind me either. That's another thing I wonder about. They'll say that there is a delay due to train traffic ahead and I'm thinking are you kidding me? This isn't rush hour so what is up with there being so many trains ahead of us? Or is this just a BS excuse and they're not really saying the real reason for the delay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share #16 Posted June 25, 2012 Or is this just a BS excuse and they're not really saying the real reason for the delay... But what is the reason for the delay? I mean, they have no motivation to delay the train just for the heck of it...They're not trying to make your trip miserable . Maybe a conductor or T/O on here can explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubwayStation Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share #17 Posted June 25, 2012 That's another thing I wonder about. They'll say that there is a delay due to train traffic ahead and I'm thinking are you kidding me? Remember, the situation that Eric B. was referring to was waiting for a connecting train across the platform. If that's the case, and the conductor plays the "train traffic ahead of us" announcement, then the conductor just played the wrong announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted June 25, 2012 Share #18 Posted June 25, 2012 Maybe a conductor or T/O on here can explain. As for the A Div ATS is GARBAGE you cant explain it any more than that... B Div from my experience isnt as much as a culstereff as the A Div more time between trains on most lines... The Larry Line being the exception which is looking more and more like the A Div trains Bunched... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 25, 2012 Share #19 Posted June 25, 2012 But what is the reason for the delay? I mean, they have no motivation to delay the train just for the heck of it...They're not trying to make your trip miserable . Maybe a conductor or T/O on here can explain. I didn't imply that they are. I just said that they aren't being truthful about the real reason for the delay. It's similar to what the SI Ferry does saying that a ferry broke down when that isn't the truth, but we have to accept what we're told because we have no way of proving them wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted June 25, 2012 Share #20 Posted June 25, 2012 From my understanding there are. I won't go out on a limb and say that the bogus inspections are the cause for more signal problems because I can't substantiate that, but I would imagine from the amount of delays that I see when I check the website due to signal problems that it could be one main problem. That's another thing I wonder about. They'll say that there is a delay due to train traffic ahead and I'm thinking are you kidding me? This isn't rush hour so what is up with there being so many trains ahead of us? Or is this just a BS excuse and they're not really saying the real reason for the delay... It's just a generic anouncment. Are they supposed to have an audio file for everything that could possibly go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 25, 2012 Share #21 Posted June 25, 2012 It's just a generic anouncment. Are they supposed to have an audio file for everything that could possibly go wrong? Uh it's stupid to say that there is train traffic ahead when there are instances where that simply isn't true. That's my point. The general public is not that stupid. If there is a serious delay ahead and they're in the station then passengers should know what is going on. Simple as that. They don't need to divulge the full details, but don't sit there and say that there's train traffic when there isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted June 25, 2012 Share #22 Posted June 25, 2012 The general public is that stupid and many times the train crew does not know why they are being held at a location. If you worked for transit, you'd know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted June 25, 2012 Share #23 Posted June 25, 2012 Just because you didn't SEE another train pass, doesn't mean there ISNT one ahead of your train. Work trains stay stationary for long periods of times, and there are also merges from other lines (like a White Plains train OR a yard train could delay a Dyre train coming into E180), as well as trains which have major issues and haven't been taken off the road by the time your train caught up to it. The 142's only have two delay messages - train traffic and dispatcher. While I personally make manual announcements explaining what the actual cause is, I'm sure many C/R's hit one or the other just so the public knows he's still there. The 160's have a bunch more messages, but those TOD's actually have decent sized flash memory (not from the late 90s) which can hold more than 20 messages. Although personally, I don't understand why we still have TWO variations of "don't ride between the cars" on the 142s but no connection message. But how does this make trains late? Doesn't it just enforce what ATS thinks the schedule is? It's very common for trains to get pushes. One example is Woodlawn - they won't hold a train to time if the crew is on board, it's a full house, and there's another revenue train waiting to get in. So the 1203 might go out at 1200. However, 161 is one of those auto-hold stations, so if that 4 shows up 3 minutes early, it will sit there until the EXACT time it is scheduled to leave the station, and only then will the holding lights go out (so really, EVERY train is late after getting the ATS effect, since you still need to time to close down). While on paper, this train is now on time, there is now a 3 minute bigger gap between that train and the leader, which is 3 more minutes for the platforms to build up, leading to longer load times. The general public is that stupid and many times the train crew does not know why they are being held at a location. If you worked for transit, you'd know this. Thank you. There are so many aspects to our system that you CAN'T possibly make sense of until you actually work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted June 25, 2012 Share #24 Posted June 25, 2012 Of course if folks here really want to know email the MTA see what they say or is that too much like thinking for some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 25, 2012 Share #25 Posted June 25, 2012 Of course if folks here really want to know email the MTA see what they say or is that too much like thinking for some? And why would we do that when all we'll get is another canned response? I mean I just don't see the point in saying that there's train traffic ahead when that may not really be the case and then having people sitting there thinking that the train will be leaving soon when they could get off and consider other arrangements, especially if the train is being held in the station. If you're going to delay people, fine, but giving them false hopes of moving soon just pisses people off more. It's similar to those dumb announcements about folks being patient. They were wise to change them. In sum, it's all about better communication and better relations with the riding public. People are understanding and things happen. How you go about dealing with those things is what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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