What would be the best way to improve weekend CPW service?

[ACEVE14]

Maybe a weekend Train service might help riders along Central Park West in Manhattan, but I'm also thinking of another Manhattan Bridge switcheroo on Sunday February 22nd, 2015. Meaning that the Train will once again run along the pre-July 22nd 2001 route on the West End Line operating between 145th St, Manhattan and Coney Island-Stillwell Av, Brooklyn skipping DeKalb Av at all times except weekday rush hours (trains are extended to Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx and stop at DeKalb Av). Trains will once again run along its pre-July 22nd 2001 route on the Brighton Line, operating between Norwood-205th St, Bronx and Coney Island-Stillwell Av, Brooklyn running local in The Bronx and Brooklyn and express in Manhattan at all times, except weekday rush hours (peak direction only from 6:15-9:10 AM southbound and from 3:04-6:12 PM northbound, Trains run express in The Bronx). Also, the Train will start running along the former line operating between 57th St-7th Av, Manhattan and Brighton Beach, Brooklyn weekdays only (late nights and weekends, Trains run to Astoria-Ditmars Blvd, Queens).

[Shortline Bus]

Maybe a weekend Train service might help riders along Central Park West in Manhattan, but I'm also thinking of another Manhattan Bridge switcheroo on Sunday February 22nd, 2015. Meaning that the Train will once again run along the pre-July 22nd 2001 route on the West End Line operating between 145th St, Manhattan and Coney Island-Stillwell Av, Brooklyn skipping DeKalb Av at all times except weekday rush hours (trains are extended to Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx and stop at DeKalb Av). Trains will once again run along its pre-July 22nd 2001 route on the Brighton Line, operating between Norwood-205th St, Bronx and Coney Island-Stillwell Av, Brooklyn running local in The Bronx and Brooklyn and express in Manhattan at all times, except weekday rush hours (peak direction only from 6:15-9:10 AM southbound and from 3:04-6:12 PM northbound, Trains run express in The Bronx). Also, the Train will start running along the former line operating between 57th St-7th Av, Manhattan and Brighton Beach, Brooklyn weekdays only (late nights and weekends, Trains run to Astoria-Ditmars Blvd, Queens).

 

 

Not happening. The reason the in 2004 created the current set up was this brief story. Sorry guys, if i am repeating myself as i said this about a year ago in another post with similar idea.

 

1)Riders along the West End in the growing Bensonhurst/Dkyer Heights/Boro Park area, wanted a 24/7 direct train to Manhattan. And they made clear they no longer wanted a shuttle to 36th-Sunset Park overnights either.

2)Rides along Sea Beach including the growing Brooklyn "Chinatown" area, wanted restored a full time 7 day week train service over the Manhattan Bridge.

3)According to surveys majority of Brighton riders wanted 24/7 access to Broadway Line.

 

Thus here what happen.

 

1) running on West End solves the problem and ended the unpopular OPTO overnight shuttle. Plus 24/7 service to/from Manhattan along West End line.

 

2) running over the Manhattan Bridge all times other than overnights in it's pre Spring 1986 routing.(Other than it's new terminal in Astoria lol)

 

3)The providing 24/7 Broadway access to Manhattan. While still maintaining weekday service to 6th Ave via re-routed line.

 

That why we have the current South Brooklyn BMT routing since 2004. Dont have to agree but the truth.

[Threxx]

Instead of that why not just suggest some run short trip service on weekends between WTC and 168 in addition to regular Brooklyn service? Calling it the is flat out too confusing.

 

 

How? It's like this: The signs would say to 168th Street via CPW, either train. That should be enough for people.

[TheSubwayStation]

Instead of that why not just suggest some run short trip service on weekends between WTC and 168 in addition to regular Brooklyn service? Calling it the is flat out too confusing.

 

Calling it the is less confusing than sending (seemingly random) trains to WTC. Then, everybody knows which train is going where.

[Daniel The Cool]

Actually not too long ago there was talk about returning the Train service on weekend between 145th Street And 2nd Avenue. But at the same time the MTA can't afford for it at the moment. It would actually make sense (In my opinion) because the On CPW alone doesn't help. There's been times when Train service is delayed, they've had to send Trains Local to fill in and got passengers confused. And 81st Street-Museum Of Natural History Station is crowded on weekends. Even though I wish they would send the Local with the on weekends, it would make the route extra long (Especially during the late nights).

 

The only weekends that the Couldn't run if they sent the southbound via 8th Avenue (Having the run in 2 sections) because it would caused congestion @ 2nd Avenue. Other than that, I support the to run On Weekends idea.

[Grand Concourse]

I don't have any problems with a .

 

@SL: I think you meant to add: 'a majority of Brighton riders wanted Broadway service.'

[Shortline Bus]

I don't have any problems with a .

 

@SL: I think you meant to add: 'a majority of Brighton riders wanted Broadway service.'

 

 

Yup . Been fixed. My last point for now on why the current route set-up?Personally i dont buy that story on studies/surveys as i rode the reguarly during the final phase of the Manhattan Bridge project(along with the and living in CI until end of 2003.) I never saw reps doing out handing out surveys. Back to comment though. The figured since prior to 2001, many Brighton line riders complained of delayed service, it better to run the a much shorter route IMO. Not to mention the demographics has changed dramtically since 1986 when the full Manny B. work started. And also address the new ridership patterns on the West End and Sea Beach lines as well.

[Art Vandelay]

A Few things.

 

1. The C will not get 600 foot trains on a permanent basis. By this winter, the C should be back to 480' trains for the foreseeable future and beyond.

 

2. The B has run to CPW during off hours since 1988. 8PM has not been the cutoff since before most people commenting here were born. The earliest was shortly after 9PM from 2004-2008.

 

3. The D is the least crowded line on CPW on weekends. The C is the most crowded line on CPW on weekends. The D running local would clearly relieve the overcrowded C, as well as the even more overcrowded 1.

 

4. The Q never actually terminated at 2nd Ave to my knowledge. The map said Broadway Lafayette, and it didn't actually terminate there. It ran to Coney Island via Culver and was called the F. They just changed the signs NB at Bway-Laf and SB at 47/50 between F and Q. Eventually, they just called the combined train the F.

[Shortline Bus]

A Few things.

 

1. The C will not get 600 foot trains on a permanent basis. By this winter, the C should be back to 480' trains for the foreseeable future and beyond.

 

2. The B has run to CPW during off hours since 1988. 8PM has not been the cutoff since before most people commenting here were born. The earliest was shortly after 9PM from 2004-2008.

 

3. The D is the least crowded line on CPW on weekends. The C is the most crowded line on CPW on weekends. The D running local would clearly relieve the overcrowded C, as well as the even more overcrowded 1.

 

4. The Q never actually terminated at 2nd Ave to my knowledge. The map said Broadway Lafayette, and it didn't actually terminate there. It ran to Coney Island via Culver and was called the F. They just changed the signs NB at Bway-Laf and SB at 47/50 between F and Q. Eventually, they just called the combined train the F.

 

 

While i dont have pics, the did run as a shuttle weekday evenings at 1 point while the still ran to 168th. You probably right Art that listed Broadway-Lafayette on the maps and on the trains it was listed as 2nd Avenue.

 

There was a time for couple of years in the mid-'90's the ran to 21st-Queensbridge late nights at start of the 63rd St tunnel extension to QB. However i could be wrong it was never listed as a shuttle.

[Art Vandelay]

There was a S Shuttle service which ran to 2nd Avenue, but that about a decade later than the Q to Bway Lafayette. It was not designated Q, although in practice, the cars assigned to it were signed for damn near anything.

[Threxx]

A Few things.

 

1. The C will not get 600 foot trains on a permanent basis. By this winter, the C should be back to 480' trains for the foreseeable future and beyond.

 

2. The B has run to CPW during off hours since 1988. 8PM has not been the cutoff since before most people commenting here were born. The earliest was shortly after 9PM from 2004-2008.

 

3. The D is the least crowded line on CPW on weekends. The C is the most crowded line on CPW on weekends. The D running local would clearly relieve the overcrowded C, as well as the even more overcrowded 1.

 

4. The Q never actually terminated at 2nd Ave to my knowledge. The map said Broadway Lafayette, and it didn't actually terminate there. It ran to Coney Island via Culver and was called the F. They just changed the signs NB at Bway-Laf and SB at 47/50 between F and Q. Eventually, they just called the combined train the F.

 

 

The is the least crowded line, but it needs to remain express. Having all those trains there is unrealistic. Like I said, a restoration at 6 TPH would do the trick in supplementing the .

[GojiMet86]

The can remain express, and the would fill the role of the or , or whatever extra service is needed.

[Art Vandelay]

There is no need for the D to remain express on weekends. CPW has plenty of track capacity on weekends, even with the D local, CPW would have more room on weekends than weekdays.

[Daniel The Cool]

A Few things.

 

1. The C will not get 600 foot trains on a permanent basis. By this winter, the C should be back to 480' trains for the foreseeable future and beyond.

 

2. The B has run to CPW during off hours since 1988. 8PM has not been the cutoff since before most people commenting here were born. The earliest was shortly after 9PM from 2004-2008.

 

3. The D is the least crowded line on CPW on weekends. The C is the most crowded line on CPW on weekends. The D running local would clearly relieve the overcrowded C, as well as the even more overcrowded 1.

 

4. The Q never actually terminated at 2nd Ave to my knowledge. The map said Broadway Lafayette, and it didn't actually terminate there. It ran to Coney Island via Culver and was called the F. They just changed the signs NB at Bway-Laf and SB at 47/50 between F and Q. Eventually, they just called the combined train the F.

 

 

WRONG about the . It's crowded on weekends (Even during non Yankees Games). and plus if you make the Local it would longer than it is now. I've ridden the on weekends ALOT. Thats why I said it makes sense for the To run.

[Art Vandelay]

The D is the least crowded of the three services on normal weekends. I am not saying it is empty. There are fewer people on each D than there are on each A, and fewer people on each A than there are on each C.

 

After Yankee games, yes, the D will likely be substantially more crowded. But such is not what basic service should be based on.

[Threxx]

The D is the least crowded of the three services on normal weekends. I am not saying it is empty. There are fewer people on each D than there are on each A, and fewer people on each A than there are on each C.

 

After Yankee games, yes, the D will likely be substantially more crowded. But such is not what basic service should be based on.

 

 

The needs to run express on weekends. No joke. It gets too crowded in the Bronx not to. Like I said, restoring the interferes with the least services.

[Art Vandelay]

The D does not need to run express on weekends for any reason besides people here saying it needs to run express on weekends. Restoring the K is a uselessly expensive proposition of relatively minimal utility. Running the D local is an almost cost free proposition of incredibly high utility. That is why it keeps on getting brought up.

[RollOver]

Then the should run on weekends between 145th Street and 2nd Avenue via CPW/6 Av Local just for the sole purpose of helping the during both AM and PM Rush. That makes some sense to me at least IMO. It can require 14 trainsets that time. Since its raised at Coney Island Yard, it can start/end service after the rush, running via 6 Av/Brighton Express.

[GojiMet86]

The shouldn't be used. Make use of the or the , but not the . And people should realize that we are talking about a weekend expansion. Why would the MTA make a new route just for the weekends? And what would happen on weekdays? 3 lines using the local tracks?

[TheSubwayStation]

Then the should run on weekends between 145th Street and 2nd Avenue via CPW/6 Av Local just for the sole purpose of helping the during both AM and PM Rush.

The already runs during AM/PM rush. We're talking about weekends.

Why would the MTA make a new route just for the weekends?

Why not?

[GojiMet86]

Because people here want to see the just for the sake of seeing a new line. In other words, FOAM. There's no point in a new route. Just make the local, or have the run on weekends. You might as well increase service and have some trips run shorter.

[Shortline Bus]

Because people here want to see the just for the sake of seeing a new line. In other words, FOAM. There's no point in a new route. Just make the local, or have the run on weekends. You might as well increase service and have some trips run shorter.

 

 

Threxx maybe a young teen at 12-13 years of age lol that thinks he knows everything on NYC subway. I been using the NYC subways/buses for over 30 years and far from a genuis at it. With that I dont think he like that "F" word you said about him, Goji.

 

Threxx just making a sacrsm joke.

[TheSubwayStation]

Because people here want to see the just for the sake of seeing a new line. In other words, FOAM. There's no point in a new route. Just make the local, or have the run on weekends. You might as well increase service and have some trips run shorter.

 

I don't think ThrexxBus is foaming at all, actually. Still, what's bad about the , other than having to update all of the signs and maps?

 

 

Threxx maybe a young teen at 12-13 years of age lol that thinks he knows everything on NYC subway.

Look, the is a pretty legitimate idea, whether it should be created or not, so I don't think we should personally criticize Threxx about it. Some people are under the assumption that whenever anyone proposes a new route letter, the idea must be full of foam...

[Daniel The Cool]

The D does not need to run express on weekends for any reason besides people here saying it needs to run express on weekends. Restoring the K is a uselessly expensive proposition of relatively minimal utility. Running the D local is an almost cost free proposition of incredibly high utility. That is why it keeps on getting brought up.

 

 

You need to ride the More then. There's reasons why they don't want to (Unless during construction).

[Concourse Express]

I had a feeling the local argument would rear its ugly head again. Where to begin...

 

People here (and on other fora) continually overstate the situation on the cpw lcl, as though the corridor were the only one featuring infrequent service, bunching/gapping delays (i.e. inconsistent service) and crowding. Us Concourse riders deal with that ish for most of the day - whether on weekdays or weekends (and peak-direction Concourse Local riders only get half the rush-hour service that the cpw lcl gets, despite stations having comparable ridership). Indeed, combined off-peak / service is double that of the Concourse line.

 

Yes, I'm aware that this is about weekends. The , like the , runs every 10 minutes. Based on my MANY weekend rides on the Delta through CPW, I can say that the , like the , is prone to crowding, delays, and inconsistent service. 20-30 minute waits when it's only supposed to be 10 tops? Been there, done that. Lex-like crowding conditions? Been there, done that. And from what I've seen, the VAST MAJORITY of crowding on those Charlies occurs at the first and last cars; I've often seen trains with somewhat crowded end cars while the rest remain relatively empty (many available seats). Now, are there Deltas that have some seats available? Sure, it happens. But I'll say once again, for the umpteenth time, that ridership levels along the CPW lcl on weekends do NOT warrant two local services, especially if the second service means longer trip times...

 

In response to Art Vandelay: As a frequent weekend rider for many years, I can truly state that the Deltas are crowded on weekends, especially northbound in the later PM hours. Many a time have I been on crowded Deltas (and by crowded I mean much more than the 10-18 standees per car specified in MTA's current loading guidelines - conditions which often persist deep into The Bronx) passing trains with the first and last cars somewhat crowded and the rest empty.

 

Notwithstanding, the local idea is not cost-free; longer trip-times means more $$$ in terms of crew (and maintenance, since you need to add at least one extra train to maintain the headway). Additionally, what little gain in cpw lcl ridership such a pattern generates will likely be offset by the loss in ridership on the Concourse due to longer trip times (as I mentioned on Subchat several months ago when this topic came up there, you'd do well to understand the basics of "discouraged arrival processes.")

 

Finally, let's get to the ridership numbers themselves (latest numbers from 2011). Here are the averages for the cpw local (in Weekday / Sat / Sun format):

72: 8,679 / 5,482 / 5,019

81: 12,685 / 8,777 / 7,462

86: 10,771 / 5,022 / 4,104

96: 9,249 / 4,216 / 3,522

103: 4,562 / 2,931 / 2,386

110: 6,742 / 4,496 / 3,734

116: 6,153 / 3,782 / 3,145

135: 5,145 / 2,702 / 2,196

SUM: 63,986 / 37,408 / 31,568

MEAN: 7,999 / 4,676 / 3,946

 

For comparative purposes let's examine the Concourse line (145 excluded since locals and expresses stop there):

155: 3,845 / 2,773 / 2,121

161*: 13,316 / 9,480 / 7,350

167: 9,054 / 6,593 / 5,161

170: 6,155 / 4,321 / 3,336

174-175: 4,660 / 3,137 / 2,418

Tremont: 8,767 / 5,562 / 4,257

182-183: 4,546 / 3,372 / 2,659

Fordham: 11,465 / 8,033 / 5,883

Kingsbridge: 7,189 / 4,528 / 3,569

Bedford: 6,150 / 3,623 / 2,746

Norwood: 7,779 / 5,043 / 3,925

SUM: 82,926 / 56,465 / 43,425

MEAN: 7,539 / 5,134 / 3,948

 

*161 ridership shown is only HALF the total, rounded up, to account for the also stopping there.

 

Average Saturday CPW local ridership is approximately 58.46% of the weekday average, while Sunday is 49.33% of the weekday avg. For Concourse, Saturday ridership is approx. 68.1% of the weekday average, while Sunday is 52.37%. Perhaps there's a steep drop-off in Saturday ridership on CPW but the Sunday drop-offs are comparable. Also note that the weekday averages are comparable, despite Concourse getting substantially less service overall than the CPW local on weekdays!

 

In short: if the weekend on 10-minute headways can handle the larger aggregate riders and higher average loads on the Concourse (and the crowding there suggests service increases are necessary, not longer trip times), then the alone can handle those of the CPW local. Methinks the solution for the is the same as the - run more trains. 8-minute headways on the solves the crowding problem plus encourages ridership along the Fulton Local...and that's another thing - why is it, when people suggest running more service, that cats say turn the extra Charlies at WTC? Why shouldn't Fulton Local riders benefit from increased service?

 

*phew*