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Staten Island Bus Proposal Thread 2012-2013


FamousNYLover

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The s89 is fine as it is, you would be over-serving Richmond Avenue (s59/s44).

 

I have been saying that NJT should expand either the 10 or the 81 to Richmond/Forest (s44/s59 and s48). The 81 seems like the best bet since it directly services both the 8th Street HBLR and makes it all the way to Grove and to Exchange Place. The 10 goes to Journal Square. We would have to see through surveys where it is needed.

 

Speaking of the s89, I would not be surprised if upon completion ~2017 of the Raise the Roadway project which involves raising the Bayonne Bridge that the Bayonne terminal of the route, presently at the 34th Street HBLR would relocated to the 8th Street HBLR terminal. This would save the MTA money and time and shorten the commute for passengers as this eliminates the NJ-440 portion of the route (and a number of traffic lights) and alot of walking between the tracks and bus stop. The 8th Street station does support a bus stop, but has a tight left turn exit. However, Bayonne residents, might not like the idea of increased traffic and could object.

I agree... The S89 more than anything is an alternative to the express bus, as it functions as a commuter bus.  The other difference is that is connects to a light rail.

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I agree... The S89 more than anything is an alternative to the express bus, as it functions as a commuter bus.  The other difference is that is connects to a light rail.

 

Depending on where your place of employment is, the hour and traffic conditions, you could make it on the x17A (which follows the s89 along RIchmond Ave to the SI Expressway) to WTC PATH and downtown Jersey City quicker. Once the HOV lanes are ready, it might be worth it especially in the winter or poor weather conditions. As noted above there is a lot of walking up/down stairs and personally find the HBLR to be slow/crowded and you're probably standing during rush hour.

Edited by 161passenger
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Depending on where your place of employment is, the hour and traffic conditions, you could make it on the x17A (which follows the s89 along RIchmond Ave to the SI Expressway) to WTC PATH and downtown Jersey City quicker. Once the HOV lanes are ready, it might be worth it especially in the winter or poor weather conditions. As noted above there is a lot of walking up/down stairs and personally find the HBLR to be slow/crowded and you're probably standing during rush hour.

True, but some folks don't want to deal with the express bus for whatever reason, and so they opt for the S89 light rail option.  I personally would go with the express bus because I hate having to make tons of transfers, but to each their own.

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It would make sense to extend the S89's hours. I mean, if they were planning to make the West Shore LRT across the bridge or something (which I don't see happening anytime soon), surely you should have had something operate across bridge during the midday first.

 

The S89's primary existence is to run across the bridge, right? (How did it perform before it was extended) Another option would be to extend the S59 across during non-rush hours. Might mess up the whole route, though.

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True, but some folks don't want to deal with the express bus for whatever reason, and so they opt for the S89 light rail option.  I personally would go with the express bus because I hate having to make tons of transfers, but to each their own.

 

I ran the numbers  and the s89/HBLR option vs the x17A/PATH option. The s89/HBLR combination option is ALOT cheaper: The savings is $140 per month or $1680 / year. Honestly, I didn't know the spread was that much. (As you can tell I enjoy playing around with numbers). 

 

Table - Monthly s89 and Alternative Cost Comparisons

 

2irm53r.jpg

Sources: The agencies as of 23 March 2015.

 

A direct express bus to downtown Jersey City waterfront would be nice. However, AM rush hour traffic is horrendous and there are no dedicated lanes. 

 

It would make sense to extend the S89's hours. I mean, if they were planning to make the West Shore LRT across the bridge or something (which I don't see happening anytime soon), surely you should have had something operate across bridge during the midday first.

 

The S89's primary existence is to run across the bridge, right? (How did it perform before it was extended) Another option would be to extend the S59 across during non-rush hours. Might mess up the whole route, though.

 

I still disagree, again, you'll be over serving Richmond Avenue. The west shore light rail is just an idea that gets tossed around (mainly for political points), i'm not sure any comprehensive study has been completed for that idea. Personally I don't think it is needed, you can read my thoughts on this post (also you can see my additional thoughts on the s89 there). 

 

Midday (and weekend) service would be nice, but I think NJT should provide that service, especially if the service economically benefits New Jersey. The Port Authority and NJT should conduct surveys. I've expressed my ideas/proposals in previous posts regarding off-peak service. Running the s89 middays is probably cost-prohibitive (tolls, fuel, B/O pay, maintenance) for probable meager interstate off-peak ridership as well as the redundancy on Richmond Ave.

 

Prior to the s89 there were a few private companies that provided express-bus-type service between the South Shore of Staten Island and the Jersey City/Hoboken waterfront. Those ventures failed for whatever reason. The s89 is a bit of a success story for the MTA and was a way for Staten Island politicians to say they did something, it was kind of a win-win situation for everyone. The s59 extension is not really a good idea due to it's length, unless the route starts at the 8th Street HBLR and it short turns at Hylan Blvd and Richmond Ave.

 

Again, my previous post in the SIR section outlines some of the thoughts I have with connecting Staten Island to New Jersey.

Edited by 161passenger
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I would rather a new Select Bus Service on the north shore of SI to the ferry rather than midday S89. Remember, an additional local/limited bus service on SI takes away service from somewhere else. Once the HOV lanes are complete, X-buses will be able to use them 24/7 which means fast service to PATH at WTC.

Edited by North Shore Line
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  • 2 months later...

It's been a long time that the thread hasn't been used, and I apologize from bringing it back, but I had a recent proposal dealing with the X12/X42 AM service pattern.

 

The last X12 bus in the early AM period to 57 Street will be the 5:50 AM X12 arriving at 7:02 AM, coinciding with the following 6:10 AM X42 departure, arriving 57 Street at 7:24 AM. 

 

 

The first bus in the AM peak period to 57 Street (for the X12) would be the 7:27 AM depature, and then run as they currently do. 6 Buses which currently terminate at 57 Street would now terminate at 23 Street.

 

 

This change would save 128 minutes of runtime, however, this would be expended in others place.

 

 

The following trips that terminate at South Avenue in the morning would start 4 minutes earlier at Richmond Terrace:

 

8:34 AM & 9:30 AM 

 

In addition, a new 10:30 AM X12 would be added in order to accommodate any residents who need to take the bus at a later hour, in addition to accommodating existing X10 riders. This bus would be slated to arrive in West Midtown at 12:12 PM. I would add a 1:20 PM bus in order to address possible overcrowding on the X10 (arriving Mariners Harbor at 3:03 PM), in addition to giving riders along the X12 a new earlier option to get home.

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It's been a long time that the thread hasn't been used, and I apologize from bringing it back, but I had a recent proposal dealing with the X12/X42 AM service pattern.

 

The last X12 bus in the early AM period to 57 Street will be the 5:50 AM X12 arriving at 7:02 AM, coinciding with the following 6:10 AM X42 departure, arriving 57 Street at 7:24 AM. 

 

 

The first bus in the AM peak period to 57 Street (for the X12) would be the 7:27 AM depature, and then run as they currently do. 6 Buses which currently terminate at 57 Street would now terminate at 23 Street.

 

 

This change would save 128 minutes of runtime, however, this would be expended in others place.

 

 

The following trips that terminate at South Avenue in the morning would start 4 minutes earlier at Richmond Terrace:

 

8:34 AM & 9:30 AM 

 

In addition, a new 10:30 AM X12 would be added in order to accommodate any residents who need to take the bus at a later hour, in addition to accommodating existing X10 riders. This bus would be slated to arrive in West Midtown at 12:12 PM. I would add a 1:20 PM bus in order to address possible overcrowding on the X10 (arriving Mariners Harbor at 3:03 PM), in addition to giving riders along the X12 a new earlier option to get home.

The (MTA) will add more X12 service as needed.  They know where the ridership comes from and if anything they would add more X10 service before adding X12 service, as the X12 is rush hour only, and I don't think they want that expanded (at the moment).

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  • 1 month later...

Would it be feasible to have an S74 variant (using the current resources) run the current S74 route until ETC, then cover the S56 routing. It isn't really much about increasing usage on that (S56) line, but just to maximize resources and to eliminate the section between the mall and ETC. The route would still run weekdays only, every 30 minutes. In addition, the overall route would get an decrease in headway from 20 to 15 minutes, which would be a better coordinator to the ferry, given it runs every 30 minutes during middays. 15 minutes is much better to schedule to 20 minutes, and provides extra service to riders. As far as the routing number, could be S64, or be kept as S56. 

 

During the rush hours, it could work, since there are short-turns at ETC. Those short-turns could be extended to cover the S56 portion of the route. I doubt most people will now take the S56 because it runs to St.George, but essentially, it's more of a combo of the two routes. Transfers to ETC would be available via the S55, S59, S79, or S89.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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Would it be feasible to have an S74 variant (using the current resources) run the current S74 route until ETC, then cover the S56 routing. It isn't really much about increasing usage on that (S56) line, but just to maximize resources and to eliminate the section between the mall and ETC. The route would still run weekdays only, every 30 minutes. In addition, the overall route would get an decrease in headway from 20 to 15 minutes, which would be a better coordinator to the ferry, given it runs every 30 minutes during middays. 15 minutes is much better to schedule to 20 minutes, and provides extra service to riders. As far as the routing number, could be S64, or be kept as S56. 

 

During the rush hours, it could work, since there are short-turns at ETC. Those short-turns could be extended to cover the S56 portion of the route.

I would say no.  The S74 is long enough as it is.  The S56 isn't a great ridership generator but given the tight headways on most SI local buses, you just be exacerbating an already bad situation.

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X1 midday

This is a bit of a stretch, but, since the X1 has a lot of midday service, I was thinking to speed trips up that every other X1 between 8AM-2PM would use the FDR Drive serving only downtown and 23rd at and above along 6th Ave.

X17 midday

Buses start at Tottenville every 40min, but also every 40 min at the transit center, causing wait times past the center to be 20 min. All buses to SI go to Tottenville, and depart every 20min.

X17 weekends

All or every other bus goes to/starts from Tottenville.

X21 Rush hour

New departure at 8AM

Change pm departure from

5:00-5:300-6:00 to 5:00-5:20-5:40-6:00

X22 rush hour

All morning buses serve the park and ride. (this is an effort to help encourage people to use it considering there is more x17 service than x22a service when ppl would need it most)

Please don't wreck me, these are just ideas.

Edited by IAlam
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I disagree with the X1 and X17 weekday ideas. While the X1 would make trips faster for midtown residents, you're still screwing riders over who need points in between. The X17 service would be.more frequent, but I don't think that's yet needed. Buses should run every 30 minutes along the entire X17 route as it is. 40 minute frequencies aren't gonna cut it.

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I disagree with the X1 and X17 weekday ideas. While the X1 would make trips faster for midtown residents, you're still screwing riders over who need points in between. The X17 service would be.more frequent, but I don't think that's yet needed. Buses should run every 30 minutes along the entire X17 route as it is. 40 minute frequencies aren't gonna cut it.

 

 

X1 midday

This is a bit of a stretch, but, since the X1 has a lot of midday service, I was thinking to speed trips up that every other X1 between 8AM-2PM would use the FDR Drive serving only downtown and 23rd at and above along 6th Ave.

X17 midday

Buses start at Tottenville every 40min, but also every 40 min at the transit center, causing wait times past the center to be 20 min. All buses to SI go to Tottenville, and depart every 20min.

X17 weekends

All or every other bus goes to/starts from Tottenville.

X21 Rush hour

New departure at 8AM

Change pm departure from

5:00-5:300-6:00 to 5:00-5:20-5:40-6:00

X22 rush hour

All morning buses serve the park and ride. (this is an effort to help encourage people to use it considering there is more x17 service than x22a service when ppl would need it most)

Please don't wreck me, these are just ideas.

I've used the X1 from points near the Eltingville Transit Center, and during off-peak hours, the trip is quite fast.  From New Dorp I have been at 34th street in about 45 minutes.

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I disagree with the X1 and X17 weekday ideas. While the X1 would make trips faster for midtown residents, you're still screwing riders over who need points in between. The X17 service would be.more frequent, but I don't think that's yet needed. Buses should run every 30 minutes along the entire X17 route as it is. 40 minute frequencies aren't gonna cut it.

I know 40 is annoying but it's only before the transit center starting at the transit center onwards it's 20min from additional buses starting there and the reason why I gave that idea was because whenever I take the x17 to Manhattan which would be from SI mall there very little people usually around 3-5 ppl then after the mall the bus becomes almost full so that why I think service after the center need to be increased but before the center could survive a decrease of service
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You'd be increasing headways from ETC to Tottenville, which would cause the route to not be as attractive to residents in those areas. I would just keep the current headways as it is. 

 

Also, how do you know that those 3-5 riders are coming specifically from ETC itself, if you said that the S I Mall is where you take the bus (further up north). I don't know about weekdays, but on Saturdays and Sundays, there's quite a bit of ridership coming from points west of ETC mainly in one direction (AM to Manhattan, PM to SI). You'll definitely have riders from Arden Heights boarding. 

 

Now, I don't know about the specific ridership west of ETC by neighborhood, but Arden Heights/Annadale should represent most of that ridership from the west.

 

Although the headways to Tottenville are decent, the reason that people may not be using it as much is probably because of the dicrepancy in runtime between the X22 and the X17. The X17 is more circitous, and takes long (appearently it's much faster to take the local bus to the X1/X10, and there might be people who still do this. Now this raises the question that if there was dedicated midday service for the X22, would it do much better than the current ridership from that area on the X17. I get the fact that the MTA wants to serve the entire X22 route, but there should be a better way to do that.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting this at all, but I wonder what would've happened if the MTA did X17 branches (one branch to Tottenville, and another Arden Heights) with the exception of the first few buses to SI which would still have to run the current route. Although the routing for the Tottenville routing would have its runtime cut back by quite a bit, I don't know how Arden Heights & Annadale residents would respond to that.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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Yeah that could work too but let's say x22 ran midday every hour cause let's face it if they gave midday service it wouldn't be 30 min and 1 hour head ways are common in other boro's then wouldn't that be the first and only line the run through jersey off peak which could cause other concerns cause it's something the MTA jade t done and the x17 already has 3 branches which is already a lot so this would be interesting to see a solution that can fit everyone's needs but your right about how it's faster to take the local bus so that already implies that the x17 isn't really popular past Arden heights especially since it looks like it goes all over the island in the map

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You'd be increasing headways from ETC to Tottenville, which would cause the route to not be as attractive to residents in those areas. I would just keep the current headways as it is. 

 

Also, how do you know that those 3-5 riders are coming specifically from ETC itself, if you said that the S I Mall is where you take the bus (further up north). I don't know about weekdays, but on Saturdays and Sundays, there's quite a bit of ridership coming from points west of ETC mainly in one direction (AM to Manhattan, PM to SI). You'll definitely have riders from Arden Heights boarding. 

 

Now, I don't know about the specific ridership west of ETC by neighborhood, but Arden Heights/Annadale should represent most of that ridership from the west.

 

Although the headways to Tottenville are decent, the reason that people may not be using it as much is probably because of the dicrepancy in runtime between the X22 and the X17. The X17 is more circitous, and takes long (appearently it's much faster to take the local bus to the X1/X10, and there might be people who still do this. Now this raises the question that if there was dedicated midday service for the X22, would it do much better than the current ridership from that area on the X17. I get the fact that the MTA wants to serve the entire X22 route, but there should be a better way to do that.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting this at all, but I wonder what would've happened if the MTA did X17 branches (one branch to Tottenville, and another Arden Heights) with the exception of the first few buses to SI which would still have to run the current route. Although the routing for the Tottenville routing would have its runtime cut back by quite a bit, I don't know how Arden Heights & Annadale residents would respond to that.

There aren't enough residents in Tottenville to warrant midday X22 service, so while the X17 routing is long, it does the job without creating waste.  For what it's worth, they're being quite generous extending the X17 midday to Tottenville because most people have cars and just drive to the Transit Center anyway.  Just about all locations on Staten Island can be reached in 15 minutes or less, so the only reason they're expanding service down there is because of the population growth on the South Shore and perhaps an attempt to take some cars off of the road.   I have friends in Tottenville.  A chick I know from HS lives down there (we both lived in Brooklyn back in the day and moved to Staten Island around the same time) and she drives everywhere aside from when she goes to work.  I don't know if she uses the X22, but I told her it would be a good idea to do so if she decided to take a job in Midtown, which she was contemplating at the time.

 

Truth be told I knew several Staten Islanders at my job. Six or seven.... One lived in Great Kills, and another was down in Princes Bay.  The others were primarily on the South Shore or Mid-Island (i.e. Annadale). The one in Great Kills took the express bus in (X7) and the one in Princes Bay drove to the SIR and took the ferry to the subway.  Neither came to the city often aside for work purposes, and that's usually the case with a lot of Staten Islanders.  If anything they tend to drive to New Jersey for outings, so most of the X22 ridership would likely be for work purposes, and less so for the city.  Folks down in Tottenville live there because it's far and isolated.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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Here's a new proposal; extending the S54 bus to St George Ferry at all times. The S54 would operate 5am-1am between St George Ferry and Eltingville or Seaview Hospital 7 days a week. The headways would be every 15 minutes during rush hours and every 30 or 20 minutes at other times meeting each ferry. When it is operating at 15 minute headways, every other bus would terminate at Seaview Hospital. The extension to St George Ferry would be along Richmond Terrace making all current S40 stops to/from St George. 

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Here's a new proposal; extending the S54 bus to St George Ferry at all times. The S54 would operate 5am-1am between St George Ferry and Eltingville or Seaview Hospital 7 days a week. The headways would be every 15 minutes during rush hours and every 30 or 20 minutes at other times meeting each ferry. When it is operating at 15 minute headways, every other bus would terminate at Seaview Hospital. The extension to St George Ferry would be along Richmond Terrace making all current S40 stops to/from St George. 

A better question is how would operating costs be dealt with? That line isn't really busy outside of the school hours, so how do you justify the extension and the headways?

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The S54 could use Lane C with the S46 and S48.

 

I wouldn't implement this plan until the Novabus LFS fleet are in at Castleton Depot but the S54 would gain and pick up some new ridership over time due to the new extension. It would make getting across Staten Island much easier. Another idea would be when it is running every 15 minutes every other bus could operate to New Dorp instead of Seaview Hospital along the S57 route.

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The S54 could use Lane C with the S46 and S48.

 

I wouldn't implement this plan until the Novabus LFS fleet are in at Castleton Depot but the S54 would gain and pick up some new ridership over time due to the new extension. It would make getting across Staten Island much easier. Another idea would be when it is running every 15 minutes every other bus could operate to New Dorp instead of Seaview Hospital along the S57 route.

You still haven't clarified where the ridership would be coming from.  In other words outside of school kids, what would be its main ridership generator?  If it's just stealing riders from other routes, then I don't see how it would be growing.

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I heard there have been a lot of changes around here since I left, with certain people leaving (whether of their own accord or otherwise), so I'm giving this a second try. Let's see how this goes.  :)

 

This change would save 128 minutes of runtime, however, this would be expended in others place.

 

The following trips that terminate at South Avenue in the morning would start 4 minutes earlier at Richmond Terrace:

 

8:34 AM & 9:30 AM 

 

In addition, a new 10:30 AM X12 would be added in order to accommodate any residents who need to take the bus at a later hour, in addition to accommodating existing X10 riders. This bus would be slated to arrive in West Midtown at 12:12 PM. I would add a 1:20 PM bus in order to address possible overcrowding on the X10 (arriving Mariners Harbor at 3:03 PM), in addition to giving riders along the X12 a new earlier option to get home.

 

I'm going to give you a little lesson in how scheduling works: The real savings come from being able to get the most trips out of a given bus and operator. The reason why a lot of rush hour-only routes have a high cost per-passenger is because you have a lot of cases where the bus makes one trip and then deadheads back to the depot. 

 

So it's not saying something like "OK, save 128 minutes and you can add one more X42 trip". If those short-turns aren't allowing you to squeeze a second trip out of some operators, you're not going to get very much in savings.

 

Also, keep in mind that those trips that start at Forest & South are runs that already made a trip to Manhattan, and are using the SIE to get back to South Avenue, make the right on Forest, and start there.

 

Would it be feasible to have an S74 variant (using the current resources) run the current S74 route until ETC, then cover the S56 routing. It isn't really much about increasing usage on that (S56) line, but just to maximize resources and to eliminate the section between the mall and ETC. The route would still run weekdays only, every 30 minutes. In addition, the overall route would get an decrease in headway from 20 to 15 minutes, which would be a better coordinator to the ferry, given it runs every 30 minutes during middays. 15 minutes is much better to schedule to 20 minutes, and provides extra service to riders. As far as the routing number, could be S64, or be kept as S56. 

 

During the rush hours, it could work, since there are short-turns at ETC. Those short-turns could be extended to cover the S56 portion of the route. I doubt most people will now take the S56 because it runs to St.George, but essentially, it's more of a combo of the two routes. Transfers to ETC would be available via the S55, S59, S79, or S89.

 

First of all, keep in mind that an S6X route implies that it runs on Victory Blvd. So if you really want to make a number, it should be S75 (S74/75/76).

 

Second of all, you have to keep in mind that of the (few) people who use the S56, a large percentage of them are headed to the mall. 

 

Third of all, I'm going to have to agree with VG8 that the S74 is a pretty long route, and it's one of the most delay-prone routes on the island. Back in October 2014, 53% of buses ran "on-time", compared to 73% on the S56. 

 

Finally, as far as the 20 minute headways go, I used to be of the school of thought that they should try to coordinate the headways with those of the ferry wherever possible. Now, on a route like the S40, where a large percentage of the riders are headed to the ferry, and it's the main "quick link" from the North Shore to the ferry, I would agree completely. But on the S74, where you have a lot of intra-SI riders, and on top of it, you have the S76 supplementing it along Richmond Road (not to mention the SIR a few blocks away), it's not as necessary. Plus, having those ETC short-turns helps keep service slightly more consistent.

 

X1 midday
This is a bit of a stretch, but, since the X1 has a lot of midday service, I was thinking to speed trips up that every other X1 between 8AM-2PM would use the FDR Drive serving only downtown and 23rd at and above along 6th Ave.
X17 midday
Buses start at Tottenville every 40min, but also every 40 min at the transit center, causing wait times past the center to be 20 min. All buses to SI go to Tottenville, and depart every 20min.
X17 weekends
All or every other bus goes to/starts from Tottenville.
X21 Rush hour
New departure at 8AM
Change pm departure from
5:00-5:300-6:00 to 5:00-5:20-5:40-6:00
X22 rush hour
All morning buses serve the park and ride. (this is an effort to help encourage people to use it considering there is more x17 service than x22a service when ppl would need it most)
Please don't wreck me, these are just ideas.

 

For the X1, if you want to speed up service to Midtown, you'd be better off expanding service on one of the variants (e.g. the X5).

 

For the X17, the routing to/from Tottenville is waaay too circuitous. I talked to a driver who says he often doesn't pick up any riders until he gets to those townhouses along Arden Avenue.

 

For the X22, I have my own plan: The MTA mentioned back in their NSAA that they wanted to create a reverse-peak express bus route from Manhattan to the Teleport. Now, obviously, that is a stupid idea. But it got me thinking about the X22. 

 

I think the X22 should have a Downtown variant, running every 20-30 minutes during rush hour. (You could shift some resources from the X19, which is currently the only Downtown bus from the South Shore). 

 

Off-peak, you could have a Downtown/Midtown combo, similar to the X17. Within Staten Island, buses would travel along South Avenue, serving the Teleport for any reverse commuters (but not the West Shore Plaza). Within Manhattan, I would have the buses do as follows:

 

Northbound via Water Street - FDR Drive - 23rd Street - Madison Avenue - 57th Street.

Southbound via 57th Street - Lexington Avenue - 23rd Street - FDR Drive - Water Street

 

For the sake of consistency, Downtown buses would start Trinity Place/Rector Street and do a Downtown Loop. (Serving a portion of Downtown Manhattan that the X19 doesn't serve).

 

The X22 Downtown Loop would run inbound from roughly 5:30 AM to 8AM. Outbound buses would leave from roughly 4PM to 6:30PM. 

 

The X22 Downtown/Midtown combo would run inbound from 9AM to 5PM (leaving Tottenville), and 7AM to 3PM (leaving Midtown).

 

You'd be increasing headways from ETC to Tottenville, which would cause the route to not be as attractive to residents in those areas. I would just keep the current headways as it is. 

 

Also, how do you know that those 3-5 riders are coming specifically from ETC itself, if you said that the S I Mall is where you take the bus (further up north). I don't know about weekdays, but on Saturdays and Sundays, there's quite a bit of ridership coming from points west of ETC mainly in one direction (AM to Manhattan, PM to SI). You'll definitely have riders from Arden Heights boarding. 

 

Now, I don't know about the specific ridership west of ETC by neighborhood, but Arden Heights/Annadale should represent most of that ridership from the west.

 

Although the headways to Tottenville are decent, the reason that people may not be using it as much is probably because of the dicrepancy in runtime between the X22 and the X17. The X17 is more circitous, and takes long (appearently it's much faster to take the local bus to the X1/X10, and there might be people who still do this. Now this raises the question that if there was dedicated midday service for the X22, would it do much better than the current ridership from that area on the X17. I get the fact that the MTA wants to serve the entire X22 route, but there should be a better way to do that.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting this at all, but I wonder what would've happened if the MTA did X17 branches (one branch to Tottenville, and another Arden Heights) with the exception of the first few buses to SI which would still have to run the current route. Although the routing for the Tottenville routing would have its runtime cut back by quite a bit, I don't know how Arden Heights & Annadale residents would respond to that.

 

He didn't say that those 3-5 riders were coming from the ETC. His point was that ridership west of the ETC is low enough that the headways could reasonably be increased. 40 minute headways instead of 30 minutes means that the average rider waits an additional 5 minutes. (20 minute wait vs. 15 minutes. Assume a uniform distribution of riders' need to travel). If you're only talking about 3-5 riders, it's not the end of the world, especially considering the boost to the people north of the ETC, who represent the vast majority of the route's ridership.

 

As far as that X17 split between Huguenot & Tottenville, that would make much more sense compared to the current pattern, I'll say that much.

 

Here's a new proposal; extending the S54 bus to St George Ferry at all times. The S54 would operate 5am-1am between St George Ferry and Eltingville or Seaview Hospital 7 days a week. The headways would be every 15 minutes during rush hours and every 30 or 20 minutes at other times meeting each ferry. When it is operating at 15 minute headways, every other bus would terminate at Seaview Hospital. The extension to St George Ferry would be along Richmond Terrace making all current S40 stops to/from St George. 

 

If you're going to send it to St. George, you're going to have to cut it back to Seaview on the southern end. An extension to St. George would mean that ridership on the northern portion of the route would be significantly higher compared to ridership on the southern portion, and you can't have traffic in the Greenbelt delaying all those North Shore and Mid-Island riders.

 

In any case, I'll agree with an extension to St. George, but I disagree with the routing. What it should do is take Castleton Avenue to Brighton Avenue, Brighton Avenue to Lafayette, Lafayette to Prospect, Prospect to Franklin, and then Franklin to Richmond Terrace. That portion of the S42 is up a steep hill from Jersey Street, and around 900 riders were affected by the loss of midday service.

 

Plus, I remember having my S44 rerouted due to an accident on Henderson Avenue. We took Brighton and went straight up Lafayette Avenue, and about 4-5 people got off along the portion up the hill, which indicates that there's unserved demand coming from the west, that the S42 isn't serving (and never has served). 

 

A better question is how would operating costs be dealt with? That line isn't really busy outside of the school hours, so how do you justify the extension and the headways?

 

The justification would be the additional ridership generated. The ferry is a destination where you can guarantee people would be going to. I'm positive that there's people in Westerleigh and Castleton Corners/Meiers Corners who would use the bus if it offered a one-seat ride to St. George. Not to mention, by going down Castleton, it also serves St. Vincent's Hospital (another big generator from both the east and west), and it would serve the whole portion of New Brighton that has no midday/weekend service. 

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1. I'm going to give you a little lesson in how scheduling works: The real savings come from being able to get the most trips out of a given bus and operator. The reason why a lot of rush hour-only routes have a high cost per-passenger is because you have a lot of cases where the bus makes one trip and then deadheads back to the depot. 

 

So it's not saying something like "OK, save 128 minutes and you can add one more X42 trip". If those short-turns aren't allowing you to squeeze a second trip out of some operators, you're not going to get very much in savings.

 

Also, keep in mind that those trips that start at Forest & South are runs that already made a trip to Manhattan, and are using the SIE to get back to South Avenue, make the right on Forest, and start there.

 

 

2.First of all, keep in mind that an S6X route implies that it runs on Victory Blvd. So if you really want to make a number, it should be S75 (S74/75/76).

 

Second of all, you have to keep in mind that of the (few) people who use the S56, a large percentage of them are headed to the mall. 

 

Third of all, I'm going to have to agree with VG8 that the S74 is a pretty long route, and it's one of the most delay-prone routes on the island. Back in October 2014, 53% of buses ran "on-time", compared to 73% on the S56. 

 

Finally, as far as the 20 minute headways go, I used to be of the school of thought that they should try to coordinate the headways with those of the ferry wherever possible. Now, on a route like the S40, where a large percentage of the riders are headed to the ferry, and it's the main "quick link" from the North Shore to the ferry, I would agree completely. But on the S74, where you have a lot of intra-SI riders, and on top of it, you have the S76 supplementing it along Richmond Road (not to mention the SIR a few blocks away), it's not as necessary. Plus, having those ETC short-turns helps keep service slightly more consistent.

 

3.He didn't say that those 3-5 riders were coming from the ETC. His point was that ridership west of the ETC is low enough that the headways could reasonably be increased. 40 minute headways instead of 30 minutes means that the average rider waits an additional 5 minutes. (20 minute wait vs. 15 minutes. Assume a uniform distribution of riders' need to travel). If you're only talking about 3-5 riders, it's not the end of the world, especially considering the boost to the people north of the ETC, who represent the vast majority of the route's ridership.

 

As far as that X17 split between Huguenot & Tottenville, that would make much more sense compared to the current pattern, I'll say that much.

 

1. I know how scheduling works and how to make things more efficient, you don't have to explain that to me. The thing is though: I never mentioned anything about modifications to the X42. This is strictly about the X12. 

 

The decrease in runtime for the X12 during the rush would allow for any second trips you mentioned. Even if all the X12 runs at the height ran only to 23 Street as is and were kept as is, the DH time would be less, assuming it's going back to SI. If it's going to Quill or so, than it's much more efficient having X12's from 23rd Street go to the depot, instead of going up to 57th, and then going back to the depot. You still achieve savings anyway. There's still probably runs that already do another trip back to Manhattan; cutting it down would allow for more trips to do that, since it doesn't have to go up, and "double back" down again. I guess the morning short-turns from Forest/South could be retained, but even then with the DH back to the Island being less, there would still be a savings in DH overall: 23rd to Richmond Terrace takes much less time than 57 street to Forest Avenue/South Avenue.

 

This savings would add a round trip; I took runtime and DH into consideration. The 128 minutes is solely revenue time which would take into account runtime for the inbound trip, and part of the outbound trip. The DH would also decrease, more than enough than the amount of runtime the rest of the outbound trip takes. This new trip can be part of an earlier morning run, or it can be part of a new run, which could make another trip back to Manhattan and do an outbound trip (however by then, it'll be either the second X42 outbound). Having it do the last X12 of the day back would be pushing it, but I'm still maintaining the amount of runs the same. The point in my proposal was not solely savings, it was to do less with more, as in giving another (later) option to the X12, and potentially gaining some X10 riders at best. 

 

2. The S78 is an even longer route. The Arden Avenue variant (under my original proposal; rush hours only) would have a shorter route than the current S74 full route. I do understand what you're saying with the consistency of the S74 short-turn, on the other hand. Both the S76 and the S74 have similar on time performance, the past New Dorp Lane on the S74, there doesn't seem to much of delays that could happen besides one or two places. I would say that the delays come from places north of New Dorp Lane, if that's correct.

 

3. I know he didn't say they came from ETC, but if 3-5 sounds reasonable given the headway and how big that part of the route is compared to the rest of the route. He also never stated at what time he rode the bus, so that also plays a factor. They've had that service like that for quite a long time, and only to reduce it seems sorta unjust. That'll discourage people from using the bus, or just go to ETC and catch any bus (which then would allow the MTA to cut even more service and just have it as hourly). As for the Tottenville and Arden Heights split, if ridership is consistently low like that before hitting ETC, maybe I can budge for the hourly headway like that. However, I don't think Arden Heights riders should be cheated out like that just to appease Tottenville folks.

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1. I know how scheduling works and how to make things more efficient, you don't have to explain that to me. The thing is though: I never mentioned anything about modifications to the X42. This is strictly about the X12. 

 

The decrease in runtime for the X12 during the rush would allow for any second trips you mentioned. Even if all the X12 runs at the height ran only to 23 Street as is and were kept as is, the DH time would be less, assuming it's going back to SI. If it's going to Quill or so, than it's much more efficient having X12's from 23rd Street go to the depot, instead of going up to 57th, and then going back to the depot. You still achieve savings anyway. There's still probably runs that already do another trip back to Manhattan; cutting it down would allow for more trips to do that, since it doesn't have to go up, and "double back" down again. I guess the morning short-turns from Forest/South could be retained, but even then with the DH back to the Island being less, there would still be a savings in DH overall: 23rd to Richmond Terrace takes much less time than 57 street to Forest Avenue/South Avenue.

 

This savings would add a round trip; I took runtime and DH into consideration. The 128 minutes is solely revenue time which would take into account runtime for the inbound trip, and part of the outbound trip. The DH would also decrease, more than enough than the amount of runtime the rest of the outbound trip takes. This new trip can be part of an earlier morning run, or it can be part of a new run, which could make another trip back to Manhattan and do an outbound trip (however by then, it'll be either the second X42 outbound). Having it do the last X12 of the day back would be pushing it, but I'm still maintaining the amount of runs the same. The point in my proposal was not solely savings, it was to do less with more, as in giving another (later) option to the X12, and potentially gaining some X10 riders at best. 

 

2. The S78 is an even longer route. The Arden Avenue variant (under my original proposal; rush hours only) would have a shorter route than the current S74 full route. I do understand what you're saying with the consistency of the S74 short-turn, on the other hand. Both the S76 and the S74 have similar on time performance, the past New Dorp Lane on the S74, there doesn't seem to much of delays that could happen besides one or two places. I would say that the delays come from places north of New Dorp Lane, if that's correct.

 

3. I know he didn't say they came from ETC, but if 3-5 sounds reasonable given the headway and how big that part of the route is compared to the rest of the route. He also never stated at what time he rode the bus, so that also plays a factor. They've had that service like that for quite a long time, and only to reduce it seems sorta unjust. That'll discourage people from using the bus, or just go to ETC and catch any bus (which then would allow the MTA to cut even more service and just have it as hourly). As for the Tottenville and Arden Heights split, if ridership is consistently low like that before hitting ETC, maybe I can budge for the hourly headway like that. However, I don't think Arden Heights riders should be cheated out like that just to appease Tottenville folks.

 

1) Read my post again, and you'll see I was using the X42 as an example. 

 

In any case, I'm going to have to say no to an expansion of the X12. The X10 is basically the bus North Shore riders flock to if they need service outside of rush hour, and I'd rather see an extra bus per hour added to the X10 during that time period, compared to adding it on the X12. If the X12 ran all the way up on Richmond Terrace or something, it would be a different story, but running less than a mile from the X10 for most of the route, there's too much overlap in the market.

 

2) For me, my preference is for a Huguenot Avenue branch of the S78. Arden Avenue is relatively close to the S55 and S59/79, and the portion south of Amboy Road is a fairly wealthy area. Plus, you can serve Tottenville High School as well.

 

And nope, believe it or not, at certain times of day, the S74 sees a lot of traffic on its standalone portion. I've been on plenty of buses that crawled all the way from Richmond Hill Road to Richmond Avenue. (Heck, those delays often started as far back as Rockland Avenue). 

 

Now, speaking of the S74/78, one of the things I've always thought should happen is to have the S74 avoid that whole area by the old Correctional Facility, and just turn left onto Bloomingdale, right on Englewood, left on Veterans Road West (to cover both Bricktown and South Shore Commons) and then continue onto Tottenville like it used to. Obviously, the S78 would get cut back to Tottenville. 

 

Though part of me also says to send the S78 up Huguenot Avenue full-time and have the S59 run to Tottenville full-time.

 

3) How long is a long time? Around 5 years ago, it was running every 45 minutes middays, along the whole route.

 

In any case, my proposal is completely different from his proposal.

 

IAlam's Proposal:

 

Service from Tottenville via Huguenot every 40 minutes

Service from the ETC every 20 minutes

 

checkmatechamp13's Proposal:

 

Service from Huguenot every 60 minutes

Service from Tottenville every 60 minutes

 

Just because service wasn't distributed according to demand in the past doesn't mean it should be like that in the present.

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