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Staten Island Bus Proposal Thread 2012-2013


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16 hours ago, MTADieselBuses said:

Implementation of the S72/S82 bus service.

S72
Saint George <-> Arden Heights

S82 (Limited)
Saint George <-> Arden Heights


S72 would be a local bus route operating between St. George and Arden Heights. At this current time, Arden Heights is pretty under-served when it comes to local bus service (express bus presence is higher). Those who utilize local bus service, specifically to north-eastern parts of the island such as Grasmere, New Dorp, etc. would have to take the S56 and then transfer either to the S74 or S78. To solve this, it would be best to have a dedicated bus route running between Arden and St. George.

The S82 would be the limited bus counterpart of the S72, making only limited stops along the route. It would operate during AM and PM respective peak hours, operating at a 20-30 minute interval within those hours for St. George bound buses, 25-30 minute interval for Arden Height bound buses.

Here's the route that it would take: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1386RABCSDWilZQDsy86b8Cuulh5Q5yiA&usp=sharing

For further clarification, let's assume a St. George bound S72 has entered service.

It would begin at the intersection of Arthur Kill Rd and Arden Ave, running down Arden Ave until it reaches Amboy Road, where it turns left and runs down Amboy.

It would continue down Richmond Rd, where Amboy Road ends, and divert to Targee Street when Richmond Rd becomes one-way only.

When it reaches Narrows Rd North, it would turn left and briefly travel down that service road until it reaches Clove Road, turning onto Clove to then turn onto Howard Ave. It would cover the Grymes Hill neighborhood of the island to better local bus presence and give students of Wagner a more reliable bus service than simply the S66 (which does not run during weekends).

It would run the entirety of Howard Ave, turning left onto Louis Street then right onto Victory Blvd to continue to St. George where it would terminate.

This bus would utilize the LFS's from Yukon Depot, with additional LFS's from Charleston Depot to support both routes.

What are your thoughts?

For one, you have to change the permissions of your map (it's currently set to private)...

Regardless, reading the street by street breakdown though, I'm familiar with what you're suggesting without needing the map.... My thoughts are that your route is unnecessarily long, there's no demand for something like that, & on top of it, lacks a strong enough ridership generator (besides the ferry terminal).... Amboy rd. is practically car country, never mind the fact that it's too proximate to the SIR..... The demand for a local bus along Arden rd. specifically, is quite poor.... Lastly, the last thing Richmond rd. needs is another supplementary route (even if it is only b/w Narrows rd & Amboy rd)....

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@Gotham Bus Co Do you mean south/west (towards Tottenville) or north/east (towards St. George)?

In any case, I don't think dedicated feeder buses are worth it, but I do agree there should be better north-south connections to get people to/from the SIR.

@MTADieselBuses I do agree that Arden Heights should have better local service, but I would go about providing through an overall restructuring of the South Shore network, rather than just adding an extra route. See this map for a general idea (some of my ideas have changed since I made that map, but it gives you a general idea): https://devpost.com/software/staten-island-local-bus-network

For the Arden Heights area, they would receive a direct connection from the Arden Avenue corridor to the Annadale SIR station, a direct connection from the Huguenot Avenue corridor to the Huguenot SIR station, and coverage along the full length of Woodrow Road (as well as 7-day service in that area)

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  • 2 weeks later...

@checkmatechamp13

Late reply, but I think your proposal is pretty nice for the most part.

I wonder about the possibility of running an express bus route across the Bayonne to get to Manhattan, while route 440 for that portion isn't exactly an expressway, it can still get riders to Manhattan in a reasonable amount of time. What's your stance on that?

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@MTADieselBuses I'll put it to you this way, even when there is a problem on the Verrazanno-Narrows Bridge the MTA is reluctant to route express buses over the Bayonne Bridge. Generally speaking, the HOV lane along the I-278 corridor makes it the quickest way into Manhattan.

If I were to send any SI buses up the northern portion of 440, it would be for the purpose of going across I-78 and reaching Newark Airport (and yes, such a service would be open-door, since the alternatives using NJT involve backtracking up to Jersey City for a PATH train to Newark). 

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  • 6 months later...

It's been a good while since I was gone. Now the S40 is the only route serving the Amazon location by Old Place that connects much of the northern part of SI along Richmond Terrace and connecting to the ferry. There should be a route connecting the other parts of SI to the center and that's where the S64 comes in 

S64

Howland Hook <> Annadale 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1sPjElvp9pEzATr6kLJzKeJNApT3iGsya&usp=sharing

 

Edited by A Former New Yorker
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@A Former New Yorker Not necessarily saying I agree, but I think that route is generally OK. The only thing is I would have it bypass the Forest Hill Road/Yukon Avenue loop (the same for the current S59), and I don't think it needs to go south of the ETC.

I'd be interested to know if pre-COVID, Amazon could've served as a strong enough anchor for route running via Rockland Avenue and Travis Avenue. (I don't think so honestly, and nowadays it would pretty much be the only anchor). So yeah the best way would probably be to have it supplement the S59 if your goal were to connect South Shore residents to Amazon.

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2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@A Former New Yorker Not necessarily saying I agree, but I think that route is generally OK. The only thing is I would have it bypass the Forest Hill Road/Yukon Avenue loop (the same for the current S59), and I don't think it needs to go south of the ETC.

I'd be interested to know if pre-COVID, Amazon could've served as a strong enough anchor for route running via Rockland Avenue and Travis Avenue. (I don't think so honestly, and nowadays it would pretty much be the only anchor). So yeah the best way would probably be to have it supplement the S59 if your goal were to connect South Shore residents to Amazon.

I had it go south to serve the SIR, thus giving it a direct link from Amazon to the other parts of the island that the SIR serves. It more or less would double as a feeder route to it than have them go all the way to St George via the S40

Good points though 😌

Edited by A Former New Yorker
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On 12/1/2020 at 9:41 AM, A Former New Yorker said:

It's been a good while since I was gone. Now the S40 is the only route serving the Amazon location by Old Place that connects much of the northern part of SI along Richmond Terrace and connecting to the ferry. There should be a route connecting the other parts of SI to the center and that's where the S64 comes in 

S64: Howland Hook <> Annadale 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1sPjElvp9pEzATr6kLJzKeJNApT3iGsya&usp=sharing

This is looking like you're either [worried about over-saturating SIR Eltingville with overall bus service] or [deem the immediate area around SIR Eltingville inadequate for terminating a bus full time around (which I'd have to agree, if that's the case)], so you're having buses run along Annadale instead..... That part I can't concur with; I would much rather have something like this serve New Dorp before ever serving Annadale... Having people taking the SIR from points west having to ride to Annadale to catch this thing ("S64") is going to be a deterrent.... if the focus is connecting more of those who stand to benefit from a northerly-southerly bus route going on to serve Amazon, I don't see why it even has to serve the mall (or ETC, really).... Everything doesn't necessarily have to serve ETC.

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On 12/1/2020 at 9:41 AM, A Former New Yorker said:

It's been a good while since I was gone. Now the S40 is the only route serving the Amazon location by Old Place that connects much of the northern part of SI along Richmond Terrace and connecting to the ferry. There should be a route connecting the other parts of SI to the center and that's where the S64 comes in 

S64

Howland Hook <> Annadale 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1sPjElvp9pEzATr6kLJzKeJNApT3iGsya&usp=sharing

 

 

On 12/3/2020 at 1:36 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@A Former New Yorker Not necessarily saying I agree, but I think that route is generally OK. The only thing is I would have it bypass the Forest Hill Road/Yukon Avenue loop (the same for the current S59), and I don't think it needs to go south of the ETC.

I'd be interested to know if pre-COVID, Amazon could've served as a strong enough anchor for route running via Rockland Avenue and Travis Avenue. (I don't think so honestly, and nowadays it would pretty much be the only anchor). So yeah the best way would probably be to have it supplement the S59 if your goal were to connect South Shore residents to Amazon.

 

On 12/3/2020 at 4:01 PM, A Former New Yorker said:

I had it go south to serve the SIR, thus giving it a direct link from Amazon to the other parts of the island that the SIR serves. It more or less would double as a feeder route to it than have them go all the way to St George via the S40

Good points though 😌

 

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

This is looking like you're either [worried about over-saturating SIR Eltingville with overall bus service] or [deem the immediate area around SIR Eltingville inadequate for terminating a bus full time around (which I'd have to agree, if that's the case)], so you're having buses run along Annadale instead..... That part I can't concur with; I would much rather have something like this serve New Dorp before ever serving Annadale... Having people taking the SIR from points west having to ride to Annadale to catch this thing ("S64") is going to be a deterrent.... if the focus is connecting more of those who stand to benefit from a northerly-southerly bus route going on to serve Amazon, I don't see why it even has to serve the mall (or ETC, really).... Everything doesn't necessarily have to serve ETC.

My question is do we know if there is a large enough demographic coming from the Mid Island or the South Shore to even warrant such a bus? The workers at Amazon from what I have understood are comes from other parts of NYC (not necessarily Staten Island), and if that's the case, then it may not make much sense having this route. I have no objections to any route, as long as it makes sense, and there is some sort of data to support it, and in my demographics must always be considered.

The mid Island and South Shore is more car centric, and would obviously be faster than a local bus, but if you have enough demand for such a route, sure, implement it.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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@Via Garibaldi 8 Anecdotally I know a lot of people that either currently work or formerly worked at Amazon, and a decent amount of them come from the Mid-Island area (I used to work at ShopRite and when Amazon first opened, a lot of our workers quit and went to work over there).

Of the Mid-Island residents who didn't drive, some slogged it out with the S59 to the S40, some took lifts with coworkers, one rode his bike. Often it was some combination of those (Depending on if their coworker was working the same shift as them, etc).

The other thing is, when you consider demographics, remember that Amazon jobs only pay a few dollars above minimum wage, so while there's definitely a lot that drive (even from the North Shore), a good chunk would prefer to use public transit and save their money for other expenses (whether they are college students who still live at home and are paying their tuition, or someone who is working there full-time and using it for all of their expenses).

So long story short, I do believe there is enough demand for an Amazon - Mid-Island route, the question is what exact route it should take and how much service should be run.

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20 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@Via Garibaldi 8 Anecdotally I know a lot of people that either currently work or formerly worked at Amazon, and a decent amount of them come from the Mid-Island area (I used to work at ShopRite and when Amazon first opened, a lot of our workers quit and went to work over there).

Of the Mid-Island residents who didn't drive, some slogged it out with the S59 to the S40, some took lifts with coworkers, one rode his bike. Often it was some combination of those (Depending on if their coworker was working the same shift as them, etc).

The other thing is, when you consider demographics, remember that Amazon jobs only pay a few dollars above minimum wage, so while there's definitely a lot that drive (even from the North Shore), a good chunk would prefer to use public transit and save their money for other expenses (whether they are college students who still live at home and are paying their tuition, or someone who is working there full-time and using it for all of their expenses).

So long story short, I do believe there is enough demand for an Amazon - Mid-Island route, the question is what exact route it should take and how much service should be run.

Yeah, so then they should consider something, or better yet, Amazon should run some buses.

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4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My question is do we know if there is a large enough demographic coming from the Mid Island or the South Shore to even warrant such a bus? The workers at Amazon from what I have understood are comes from other parts of NYC (not necessarily Staten Island), and if that's the case, then it may not make much sense having this route. I have no objections to any route, as long as it makes sense, and there is some sort of data to support it, and in my demographics must always be considered.

The mid Island and South Shore is more car centric, and would obviously be faster than a local bus, but if you have enough demand for such a route, sure, implement it.

IDK, but my main point is that a bus route of the sort should not be directly serving Annadale before directly serving more of the Mid-Island region.... If the demand is lacking for such a service either way, then of course it shouldn't be implemented... The guy's idea isn't exactly something I'm staunchly defending.

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On 12/1/2020 at 9:41 AM, A Former New Yorker said:

It's been a good while since I was gone. Now the S40 is the only route serving the Amazon location by Old Place that connects much of the northern part of SI along Richmond Terrace and connecting to the ferry. There should be a route connecting the other parts of SI to the center and that's where the S64 comes in 

S64

Howland Hook <> Annadale 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1sPjElvp9pEzATr6kLJzKeJNApT3iGsya&usp=sharing

 

If I were creating a new route serving Amazon, I would have it start in Brooklyn as an extension or a variant of the S93. After College of S.I., it would stay on Victory, right Travis to South Avenue, then through the Teleport and continuing to Amazon.

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2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

If I were creating a new route serving Amazon, I would have it start in Brooklyn as an extension or a variant of the S93. After College of S.I., it would stay on Victory, right Travis to South Avenue, then through the Teleport and continuing to Amazon.

And why is that?

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I have the same question.

No way would I extend the S93 to Amazon, regardless if it serves the business park (Teleport) or not....

 

The idea is to link two employment centers to the subway in Brooklyn. (It would probably have to serve both to be truly viable.) 

It can be a separate route (S99?) that stays on highways most of the way. Maybe the S.I. Expressway to 440 to South Avenue, then Teleport, then Amazon.

 

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26 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

The idea is to link two employment centers to the subway in Brooklyn. (It would probably have to serve both to be truly viable.) 

It can be a separate route (S99?) that stays on highways most of the way. Maybe the S.I. Expressway to 440 to South Avenue, then Teleport, then Amazon.

 

Industrial areas are notorious dead zones. The Teleport is basically an industrial zone in a nice suit, which is only exacerbated by most of South Avenue having nothing to speak of.

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14 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, so then they should consider something, or better yet, Amazon should run some buses.

Eh, private buses on the west coast are extremely controversial, because they do represent a sort of disinvestment in public transit (as in, transit for the general public).

Here companies are *mandated* to hit commute targets (only X% solo drivers and Y% total drive alone trips a month) and so all the major employers here purchase or subsidize passes directly. It's different from NYC TransitChek in that TransitChek is basically just an implementation of the federal tax credit but otherwise doesn't track targets, and here companies will be fined if they can't hit their targets even after exhausting the federal tax credit, so companies here go above and beyond to encourage not driving. But this policy would make too much sense for NYC.

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26 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Eh, private buses on the west coast are extremely controversial, because they do represent a sort of disinvestment in public transit (as in, transit for the general public).

Here companies are *mandated* to hit commute targets (only X% solo drivers and Y% total drive alone trips a month) and so all the major employers here purchase or subsidize passes directly. It's different from NYC TransitChek in that TransitChek is basically just an implementation of the federal tax credit but otherwise doesn't track targets, and here companies will be fined if they can't hit their targets even after exhausting the federal tax credit, so companies here go above and beyond to encourage not driving. But this policy would make too much sense for NYC.

If they had their own buses, I'm certain would get some people out of their cars, since it would only be serving Amazon workers. There is an express bus that makes stops on the Upper East Side for a large conglomerate up in Purchase I believe whose name escapes me at the moment (PepsiCo I think), but I see them early in the morning when I stay in the City and go back to Riverdale with the express bus. I was also once asked if I was waiting for some other bus that stops on the Upper East Side (I suppose with my dress style, I blend right in there lol) (not the Long Island express bus that goes to the Hamptons either). Must be another one that runs in the morning that is private. I told the lady I wasn't, but it is interesting that there are so many private buses in some areas. They seem to do quite well too.

Doesn't Google or one of the large tech firms out there  on the West Coast run their own private bus service for their employees? I have seen it before. I've been to Google event here in the City by invitation for a business lunch, and they have their own cafeteria with cooks (tried some of the food and drink - lackluster, but still a nice option if you don't want to pay for lunch), but that's what most large companies do. I've had lunch at L'Oréal's cafeteria as well here in the City, which was excellent. That place has chefs, not cooks, but I would think a company as large as Amazon would provide such things. Maybe they do for the employees in management, etc.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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14 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't know about all of these routes going to 4th and 86th, which is where I suspect he would terminate it.

One of the MTA planners said they were specifically looking at more routes to Brooklyn as part of the SI local study. If there's no space at 4th & 86th, they can always look for some other location (59th Street has been a relatively popular request but I'm not sure they would go that far, but I could see them terminating at 95th Street if necessary).

As for this particular route, while I could understand the general logic, I don't think an S93 branch (or a direct route via highways) is the way to go about it.

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7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Doesn't Google or one of the large tech firms out there  on the West Coast run their own private bus service for their employees? I have seen it before. I've been to Google event here in the City by invitation for a business lunch, and they have their own cafeteria with cooks (tried some of the food and drink - lackluster, but still a nice option if you don't want to pay for lunch), but that's what most large companies do. I've had lunch at L'Oréal's cafeteria as well here in the City, which was excellent. That place has chefs, not cooks, but I would think a company as large as Amazon would provide such things. Maybe they do for the employees in management, etc.

They do, and it's considered extremely controversial because essentially it removes Google from the local economy. Google buses aren't available to the public, so it's removed any real incentive for them to advocate for improving transit. In the same manner, the Google cafeteria is controversial because local businesses in their neighborhoods have seen reduced custom.

It also did not help that when the whole thing was started, Google's bus system was very chaotic, and often got in the way of Muni buses trying to pull into their own bus stops, similar to how the early days of Megabus here were not smooth.

(Also those cafeteria-type nice amenities are generally for HQ's.)

Edited by bobtehpanda
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On 5/16/2020 at 11:53 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@MTADieselBuses I'll put it to you this way, even when there is a problem on the Verrazanno-Narrows Bridge the MTA is reluctant to route express buses over the Bayonne Bridge. Generally speaking, the HOV lane along the I-278 corridor makes it the quickest way into Manhattan.

If I were to send any SI buses up the northern portion of 440, it would be for the purpose of going across I-78 and reaching Newark Airport (and yes, such a service would be open-door, since the alternatives using NJT involve backtracking up to Jersey City for a PATH train to Newark). 

I can understand why they are. It takes FOREVER for some reason going over the Bayonne Bridge. I've done it numerous times during detours over the years and it sucks.

@bobtehpanda I don't know if I agree with that. Basically a perk that comes with working for Google. Similar to (MTA) workers that get free passes...

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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28 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I can understand why they are. It takes FOREVER for some reason going over the Bayonne Bridge. I've done it numerous times during detours over the years and it sucks.

@bobtehpanda I don't know if I agree with that. Basically a perk that comes with working for Google. Similar to (MTA) workers that get free passes...

The problem is that the "perk" is so massive it is basically its own whole transit system in its own right, and what ends up happening is that there is poor coordination of bus services and the like leads to the whole being less than the sum of its parts.

Like, as a general example, the Google buses also get stuck in traffic, so it'd probably make more sense from an efficiency standpoint for everyone to pool the money they're spending on a much higher capacity, 

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