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Amtrak7

Bus Co to convert a hybrid into a diesel

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If this is already posted elsewhere, mods, feel free to delete.

 

This morning, the MTA Bus Committee approved a $77,539.08 contract to convert a hybrid bus to a diesel bus, claiming that the higher average speeds in Queens compared to other boroughs makes the hybrid technology more hassle and expense than its worth.

 

Anyone have more info on this?

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Wow so basically they want to go from being the largest Green Fleet to All Diesel and CNG again :( . Those Hybrids are nice and something different.

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The contract states that if this conversion works and the bus meets reliability requirements for 6 months, they will try to get funding to convert the remainder of the 2006-2007 hybrid fleet.

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Man would that be a complete flop for the hybrid fleet, hundreds of hybrids in Queens alone. I guess that 77k entails a full rebuild of the bus.

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Makes sense. The electric motor is for low speeds, the diesel motor is for high speeds and sustained cruising and on Hybrids the electric motor shuts off once a certain speed is reached, and then the diesel motor supplies the power. More economical to have simpler operation (one motor as opposed to two and no programming the electronic controls to tell the engines to trade places depending on speed).

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Not to mention, gears are there for a reason, and the economy of a gearless hybrid at high speed is anything but good.

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This is a waste of money the MTA needs to focus on better things. The buses may be slow but at least they get you to your destination.

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Note that this applies to MTA Bus Co hybrids only, not NYCT!

 

The $77K includes a new engine, transmission, and cooling system.

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I agree with College Point Man about the waste of money; I figure the better way to handle this is to play a little musical depots; pull some of the D60HFs, RTSs, and diesel Orion Vs out of storage, spend the money refurbishing and rebuilding those, and swap them onto higher-speed Queens routes, then keep a good chunk of the 2006-07 hybrids for rush hour service and other periods in which there aren't enough buses while putting the others in storage for a while.

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Note that this applies to MTA Bus Co hybrids only, not NYCT!

 

The $77K includes a new engine, transmission, and cooling system.

 

Yeah, at first I was thinking, is this at Jamaica depot. And then I read through everything and got that. This has gotta be at LGA or JFK depot right?
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I'd rather just send the hybrid buses out to Manhattan and save $$... but i guess this works too lol

 

 

How exactly does that make any sense at all?

 

I actually overheard something from 2 MTA Bus B/Os over at Jamaica Center about this but I thought this was a joke. I guess it was legit after all.

Edited by Cait Sith

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It's rare that the hybrids actually hit that speed where the diesel engine kicks in, some are probably governed below that actual speed, I believe the engine kicks in at roughly 40-45 MPH on a hybrid, its usually the cruising that causes that (if there's any LOL)

Edited by SoSpectacular

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Its not really fare, MTA bus is always getting treated differently. Different bus signs, No Guide A Rides on ALL ROUTES, Crap Maintaince for most of the Depots, Lack of programs and projects starting with them and now their Hybrids are being converted to Diesels while NYCT stays hybrid. -_- When will this world ever be fair and equal.

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Does anyone have ther actual report? I'm curious if they name specific routes or not. I'm with the posters above--why not just switch an existing diesel bus onto the routes with higher speeds?? Unless these are the hybrids with the batteries that crapped out and need to be replaced anyway...

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Its an experiment. Let the (MTA) spend/waste their money the way they want. Who knows, maybe this will set a precedent for the future to fix up some older buses.

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Makes sense. The electric motor is for low speeds, the diesel motor is for high speeds and sustained cruising and on Hybrids the electric motor shuts off once a certain speed is reached, and then the diesel motor supplies the power. More economical to have simpler operation (one motor as opposed to two and no programming the electronic controls to tell the engines to trade places depending on speed).

 

In the Orion (BAE) hybrid, the electric motor is always propelling to the bus. The diesel engine simply keeps the batteries charged so the electric motor always has electric power to draw from. Electric power is recovered from regenerative braking, and the diesel engine will run in a limited RPM range keeping the batteries charged, sometimes increasing the RPM if the system requires more electric power.

 

Not to mention, gears are there for a reason, and the economy of a gearless hybrid at high speed is anything but good.

 

You can't beat the efficiency of an electric setup. The fuel savings may be smaller at higher speeds, but there will always be fuel savings over a conventional diesel bus.

Edited by DaimlerBuses
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Actually here in Toronto, we are thinking the same thing, converting our existing hybrid fleet to regular diesel. They actually waste more fuel just to keep the batteries charged. So its not as fuel efficient. Our hybrids waste more fuel, and generally are more expensive to maintain than there diesel counter parts. Our 16-17 Year old Orion Vs are more fuel efficient. I have to find the report on that. To properly dispose the batteries and to manufacture it, is actually doing more harm to the environment than regular diesel components. Having someone to waste fuel to pick up, or drop of the batteries is also a waste of money, and environmentally harmful. All these extra work and components that a hybrid bus has is worse than regular Diesel bus. Its very interesting when you actually look at the details and logistics of maintaining different types of buses, eg, CNG Diesel, hybrid etc. The most fuel effecint bus is probably a CNG, but the way they are making these new Diesel engine, regularclean Diesel is getting close to a CNG in terms of cleaner air out the exhaust pipe. Don't get me wrong, theoretically hybrids can work, but of course there is still a long way to go.

 

And some one was asking what engine the 7900/8000 have? Its ISL, the 8000s have a DPF.

Edited by FlyerD901
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So does this mean that hybrid technology is a failure?

This, right now as full electric power is finally moving to full sized buses, with a couple of models scheduled to be tested in places, including (MTA). Hope they can finally make that work, as I've always seen hybrid as a "compromised" electric technology that offers the full benefits of neither technology.

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MTA would have been better off getting Allison Hybrids, which are made for higher speeds.

 

Note: That lower spped stuff does not apply to all hybrid systems. Series, and parallel systems operate differently.

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