Brooklyn Posted October 10, 2012 Share #51 Posted October 10, 2012 A better idea from studying the geography and the map of the area would be an out of system transfer between Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. That would be cheaper and more ideal for the area currently. NO....that is way too far. Well, I am glad you admit that you based this on maps and not being in the area. The Fulton st station is closer. Giving riders a free out of station transfer to Atlantic would be a decent compromise, i guess. But i still like connecting the and at Hoyt--the stations are very close, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted October 10, 2012 Share #52 Posted October 10, 2012 People ways around without the SAS but that does not mean it shouldn't be built.Just because people found their ways around things is no excuse for not improving transportation. If that was the case we wouldn't have built a transit system in the first place. The fact is the G train has so little connections compared to other lines . For example the 1 has 13 connections,the 2 has 20, the A 22,yet the G only has 7. Public transportation should make it easier to get around you borough though. Comparing the SAS to this is apples to oranges so lets not go there. Plus you do realize that those lines were built at different times and were built around each other. And all those lines you mentioned all run into Manhattan. The purpose of the is the BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN. If they wanted it built to connect with everything, they would've built it to run into Manhattan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted October 11, 2012 Share #53 Posted October 11, 2012 NO....that is way too far.Hoyt-Schermerhorn might actually be closer to DeKalb! (Flatbush is at such an angle, that Atlantic Terminal is far east, but DeKalb is not; just mostly north. I've done that at times when needing to get to the quickly from the ). But i still like connecting the and at Hoyt--the stations are very close, actually. I assumed you were talking about Hoyt on the with Jay. Those stations are possibly touching each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheTransitMan Posted October 11, 2012 Share #54 Posted October 11, 2012 What does any of this have to do with Nevins lower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted October 11, 2012 Share #55 Posted October 11, 2012 What does any of this have to do with Nevins lower? Read the first page and you'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1447 Posted October 11, 2012 Share #56 Posted October 11, 2012 What does any of this have to do with Nevins lower? Most of these fans just wants to Expand on anything thats unused, which is stupid. We can't just expand on a whole lot of things now, especially with this Troubled Authority suffering from cash. If any expansions is necessary, it would of been better to do this BACK then, when the money was on the table... Now we have limits here, with the economy in bad shape... Besides money, any changes done, MAY affect any current Residential / Commercial district where this "expansion" would be done.. I say, leave it how it is. If a connection to another line is needed, ether offer a free out of systems transfer, or just use an alternative route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted October 11, 2012 Share #57 Posted October 11, 2012 the only problem with digging from Atlantic-Barclays to the G at Lafeytte/Fulton is the transfer tunnel would be the eqvilent length of building a tunnel to connect Penn station with the Lexington line. I'd be more in favor of a short hop between the two hoyts streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted October 11, 2012 Share #58 Posted October 11, 2012 Nevins st is well known as the stop for the the 2,3,4,5 trains.But there is an unused platform under the irt line.This line connects to several different lines including the Crosstown Line. I was wondering if the G train could be re routed to serving Nevins St so that it could connect to the 2,3,4,5 lines. What do you guys think? Never will happen for many reasons mentioned already. I wanted to add that that lower level and cooresponding network of abandoned spurs and tunnels along the Brooklyn IRT are remnants from the days of the Dual Contracts where it was once intended for the IRT to operate trains over the Manhattan Bridge through Eastern Parkway and also 4th Avenue (same current line we see today served by the , and ). The BMT however won the contracts for operation of one of the already partially built subway lines (4th Avenue), so the IRT had no more use for the Nevins St lower level and all ROWs associated with it, and so the rest is history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Posted October 12, 2012 Share #59 Posted October 12, 2012 Hoyt-Schermerhorn might actually be closer to DeKalb! (Flatbush is at such an angle, that Atlantic Terminal is far east, but DeKalb is not; just mostly north. I've done that at times when needing to get to the quickly from the ). I assumed you were talking about Hoyt on the with Jay. Those stations are possibly touching each other. Dekalb is far from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, actually. About Nevins st, anything can be done if there's enough will, but connecting the there would be a real pain. The line would have to be reconfigured in Downtown Brooklyn. New tunneling would have to happen and tracks would have be reconfigured, not to mention the flooding that was mentioned. In the meantime, trains would have to go as south as only the Fulton st station (Nevins lies between the Fulton and Hoyt-Schermerhorn stops). riders would not have access to the and lines until work was done. Culver would also be cut off. I don't know if riders would be too happy about that. Interesting idea, though. But I agree generally, the should have more connections. The most logical place would be what I suggested for the . That would be the least disruptive as only a short passageway would have to be built. Trains can still run in the meantime. I would LOVE the Atlantic Center passage. I sometimes walk the streets to make my own out-of-station transfer. But even I will admit, that would be a long passageway, and (even if I had absolute control of the MTA) I don't know if I would approve that--would ridership demands be enough to command such resources? Also, security might be a huge issue. I could see that passageway not having much traffic during huge portions of the day. Forget about the nights--I know Fort Greene is "up and coming" but I would see NOTHING BUT SECURITY ISSUES. I know that area extremely well. Here's my plan: 1. Free out of station transfer at the Fulton st station for Barclay Center/Atlantic Av. 2. A short passageway at Hoyt Schermerhorn connecting the Hoyt st station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted October 12, 2012 Share #60 Posted October 12, 2012 Fulton-Lafayette to Atlantic Terminal- roughly 800 feet. Similar in length to: 14th/7th 1/2/3 to 14/6 F/M roughly 920 feet The big momma transfer- 42/8 Front of uptown A/C/E to Uptown N/Q/R- roughly 2100 feet. Penn Station to Lexington/33- 3900 feet. Not comparable in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted October 12, 2012 Share #61 Posted October 12, 2012 There would be no doubt that an A/C/G to Atlantic terminal passage would be well used. (I think such a service would easily justify rerouting the A to the local via new switch south of Franklin/Fulton. Sure, you would be overserving Clinton Washington, but who cares.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingal11234 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share #62 Posted October 12, 2012 I get nasty when people refuse to listen when other people tell them what's what, becuase they think they have the answer and don't want to hear it when someone tells them what they wan't can't be done. you're not the first. This happens once every few months. Some one comes along, "why can't they do this", "Lets do that", blah blah blah, and they get just like you're getting. When we tell them what's wrong with thier idea, they refuse to listen, keep repeting thier justifcations and then get upset/angry. Public transportation is not ment to be a door to door service, there has to be some level of compromis in it's operations, otherwise it would be impossibly complicated. hell, even after the city took over the IRT and BMT in 1940, inter-divisonal transfers were almost non-esxtant for nearly a decade, even in places where it would be obvious. You want the IRT that badly, use the C and the Franklin Shuttle. Stop misspelling word fool. I know people make mistakes but you misspelled words everytime you sent a message. But first of all if I'm on the G train In Williamsburg or Bedstuy how does taking the slow C train or the even slower Shuttle help. What your basically saying is to take the G train(every 5min) to the C train(every 5min) to the S every(10-12min) That is 25 min wait right there which is really a hurdle for people. There already is a connection to the IRT. From the to the to Boro Hall. Or just walk if it's so dire. I don't see of any legit solution without turning Downtown Brooklyn into an underground city. There are too many stations in such a close proximity but none of them are logical. \Your statement is not logical. That is not a direct connection. What about people on wheelchairs or seniors who struggle to walk? Comparing the SAS to this is apples to oranges so lets not go there. Plus you do realize that those lines were built at different times and were built around each other. And all those lines you mentioned all run into Manhattan. The purpose of the is the BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN. If they wanted it built to connect with everything, they would've built it to run into Manhattan. Why should not go there? I was addressing a point you made which was illogical. You said that people found their ways around things. I was simply pointing out that you were to used that excuse there would not have been a transit system in the first place. I did not suggest they build it to connect to everything. I only suggested to connect it with subway lines 2 short blocks away. Most of these fans just wants to Expand on anything thats unused, which is stupid. We can't just expand on a whole lot of things now, especially with this Troubled Authority suffering from cash. If any expansions is necessary, it would of been better to do this BACK then, when the money was on the table... Now we have limits here, with the economy in bad shape... Besides money, any changes done, MAY affect any current Residential / Commercial district where this "expansion" would be done.. I say, leave it how it is. If a connection to another line is needed, ether offer a free out of systems transfer, or just use an alternative route. The MTA has been crying broke since there's been an MTA. So if we are going to settle for that as an excuse than we will never see anything get built. Plus MTA isn't that broke. Over the pass few years we seen them build a connection at Jay-St Borough Hall, Court St Borough Hall, Bleecker Street, and Court Square, all this while extending the 7 train,building the Fulton and the SAS. I could understand them not having money to extend subway lines, or building new ones,but this no. They still get an annual budget from the city/state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted October 12, 2012 Share #63 Posted October 12, 2012 the only problem with digging from Atlantic-Barclays to the G at Lafeytte/Fulton is the transfer tunnel would be the eqvilent length of building a tunnel to connect Penn station with the Lexington line. I'd be more in favor of a short hop between the two hoyts streets. Dekalb is far from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, actually. I would LOVE the Atlantic Center passage. I sometimes walk the streets to make my own out-of-station transfer. But even I will admit, that would be a long passageway, and (even if I had absolute control of the MTA) I don't know if I would approve that--would ridership demands be enough to command such resources? 1. Free out of station transfer at the Fulton st station for Barclay Center/Atlantic Av. 2. A short passageway at Hoyt Schermerhorn connecting the Hoyt st station. Penn St. - Lex 3805.33 ft Hoyt Schermerhorn - Atlantic Terminal 2554.20 ft Hoyt Schermerhorn - DeKalb 1304.18 ft Atlantic Terminal - Lafayette 993.403 ft Atlantic Terminal - Fulton St 762.134 ft Hoyt Schermerhorn - Hoyt 649.203 ft So I was right that DeKalb is much closer than Atlantic Terminal (that was my point). I would prefer DeKalb or Atlantic Terminal to just the because of all the other lines; and especially Atlantic Terminal being such a big destination, especially now. The thing Hoyt-Hoyt would have going for it would be, wasn't there already a passage from Hoyt Schermerhorn to Livingston St. that was closed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Posted October 12, 2012 Share #64 Posted October 12, 2012 As a general comment, can we please check our distance measurements? Also, I am assuming the tunneling would be done under the streets and not diagonally through the buildings. From Fulton (via Ft. Greene place) to Hanson Place = 0.123274 miles From Ft. Greene place to Ashland place = 0.08791 miles There are 5280 feet in a mile. Total distance in miles = 0.211184 For feet, multiply by 5280 (0.211184 by 5280)=1111.05 feet, approximately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Posted October 12, 2012 Share #65 Posted October 12, 2012 But first of all if I'm on the G train In Williamsburg or Bedstuy how does taking the slow C train or the even slower Shuttle help. What your basically saying is to take the G train(every 5min) to the C train(every 5min) to the S every(10-12min) That is 25 min wait right there which is really a hurdle for people. I think you're being generous. I regularly take the and I rode the for years. The runs about every 8 minutes and off peak, it takes longer. Not to mention its unreliability. The is unbelievably slow.....not to mention it has healthy wait times. I don't see why a rider would want to use 2 additional connecting trains and add OVER a half hour to his commute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted October 12, 2012 Share #66 Posted October 12, 2012 As a general comment, can we please check our distance measurements? Also, I am assuming the tunneling would be done under the streets and not diagonally through the buildings. From Fulton (via Ft. Greene place) to Hanson Place = 0.123274 miles From Ft. Greene place to Ashland place = 0.08791 miles There are 5280 feet in a mile. Total distance in miles = 0.211184 For feet, multiply by 5280 (0.211184 by 5280)=1111.05 feet, approximately. I didn't do it to Ashland Pl. I just went straight down Ft. Greene Pl. from the little park where the station is, to the back of the Atlantic complex on Hanson Pl. Once inside the complex, it would probably not be a passageway anymore (like it might lead into the mall, though that wouldn't be under fare control; I wasn't pushing this to necessarily be within fare control).This just to get a general idea of the distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted October 12, 2012 Share #67 Posted October 12, 2012 Stop misspelling word fool. I know people make mistakes but you misspelled words everytime you sent a message. But first of all if I'm on the G train In Williamsburg or Bedstuy how does taking the slow C train or the even slower Shuttle help. What your basically saying is to take the G train(every 5min) to the C train(every 5min) to the S every(10-12min) That is 25 min wait right there which is really a hurdle for people. At least you have something. What about the people who live deep in Eastern Queens who have to take one (maybe even two sometimes) buses just to get to the closest train station? What about the people who live out in the Rockaways who's only connection to the rest of the system is the train, which is AT LEAST 25 minutes from Downtown Brooklyn on top of horrible headways? The and Franklin is really not that slow. Stop exaggerating, I use it all the time to get to and from work. Your statement is not logical. That is not a direct connection. What about people on wheelchairs or seniors who struggle to walk? Why should not go there? I was addressing a point you made which was illogical. You said that people found their ways around things. I was simply pointing out that you were to used that excuse there would not have been a transit system in the first place. I did not suggest they build it to connect to everything. I only suggested to connect it with subway lines 2 short blocks away. If it's 2 short it's blocks away, then walk. That's why they have buses and Access-A-Ride. Not every place can be connected cuz its so close to each other. Shit, going by your logic we should connect the following stops since they are 2 blocks or less within each other... -Wall St , and Broad St -23 & 50 Sts and -23 St and -Both Penn stations -49 St and 50 St -7 Av and Grand Army Plz Just cuz the stations are close, doesn't mean it justifies for a connection to be built The MTA has been crying broke since there's been an MTA. So if we are going to settle for that as an excuse than we will never see anything get built. Plus MTA isn't that broke. Over the pass few years we seen them build a connection at Jay-St Borough Hall, Court St Borough Hall, Bleecker Street, and Court Square, all this while extending the 7 train,building the Fulton and the SAS. I could understand them not having money to extend subway lines, or building new ones,but this no. They still get an annual budget from the city/state Everything you just mentioned was studied for years and was actually needed. Lets break it down like this... Jay St-MetroTech: those 2 stations are literally sitting on top of one another. Plus that opened up more options to transfer to other lines since the don't directly connect to any IRT line in Brooklyn. Court St-Borough Hall: that's been open for decades Bleecker St: That has been the MTA's biggest half-assed transfer for 50 years. Before the transfer, if you was on the uptown side, you would have to leave the station and walk about a block or 2 just to transfer to the IND while the downtown side was already within fare control. All they did there was finish what they started. Whole point is, not everything is gonna get connected. If it's that much of a problem to walk 2 blocks, then take a can of drive. Plus, if you're in Willamsburg and you want to get downtown, the B62 is right there too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted October 12, 2012 Share #68 Posted October 12, 2012 Stop misspelling word fool. I know people make mistakes but you misspelled words everytime you sent a message. Learn to use the quote function right and I'll see about getting over my dislexia. But first of all if I'm on the G train In Williamsburg or Bedstuy how does taking the slow C train or the even slower Shuttle help. What your basically saying is to take the G train(every 5min) to the C train(every 5min) to the S every(10-12min) That is 25 min wait right there which is really a hurdle for people. Consider what you'd be doing to IND people who want the G... Your statement is not logical. That is not a direct connection. Meanwhile, yours is not a direct quotation. He didn't say "direct", don't put words in other people's mouths. What about people on wheelchairs or seniors who struggle to walk? Jay street-Metro tech and Atlantic Ave-Barclays Center are both already ADA accesable. your point is null. Why should not go there? And you complain about my spelling? Your grammer needs work two... And how about because it makes no sense to dug up downtown brooklyn. I mean, to be able to do what you're suggests, the existing nevins lower would probibly need to be demolished. I was addressing a point you made which was illogical. You said that people found their ways around things.I was simply pointing out that you were to used that excuse there would not have been a transit system in the first place. Now who's making illogical statements. I did not suggest they build it to connect to everything. I only suggested to connect it with subway lines 2 short blocks away.The MTA has been crying broke since there's been an MTA. So if we are going to settle for that as an excuse than we will never see anything get built. no, you suggested rerouting the line, which even if the money was there would not be a stright forward project from an engineering standpoint. Plus MTA isn't that broke. Oh yes it is. Over the pass few years we seen them build a connection at Jay-St Borough Hall, Court St Borough Hall, Bleecker Street, and Court Square, all this while extending the 7 train,building the Fulton and the SAS. I could understand them not having money to extend subway lines, or building new ones,but this no. They still get an annual budget from the city/state The MTA has bearly had to shell out a dime for any of those projects. the federal government is paying for ESA and SAS. The CIty is paying for the 7 extension. the rest of the projects are passenger transfer tunnels, not running tunnels. they are about 1/3rd the size, can make 90 degree turns in all directions and can weave around obistalces. running tunnels can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted October 12, 2012 Share #69 Posted October 12, 2012 -7 Av and Grand Army Plz Knock down the wall and do some work on the platform at 7 Avenue. Connection distance: 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NX Express Posted October 12, 2012 Share #70 Posted October 12, 2012 At least you have something. What about the people who live deep in Eastern Queens who have to take one (maybe even two sometimes) buses just to get to the closest train station? What about the people who live out in the Rockaways who's only connection to the rest of the system is the train, which is AT LEAST 25 minutes from Downtown Brooklyn on top of horrible headways? The and Franklin is really not that slow. Stop exaggerating, I use it all the time to get to and from work. If it's 2 short it's blocks away, then walk. That's why they have buses and Access-A-Ride. Not every place can be connected cuz its so close to each other. Shit, going by your logic we should connect the following stops since they are 2 blocks or less within each other... -Wall St , and Broad St -23 & 50 Sts and -23 St and -Both Penn stations -49 St and 50 St -7 Av and Grand Army Plz Just cuz the stations are close, doesn't mean it justifies for a connection to be built The people who live in the outer reaches of Queens chose to live there and accepted that there would be inadequate transportation. Downtown Brooklyn, however, is generally regarded as a place with excellent transportation, given the maze of lines there. This link would not be very long and would drastically improve connectivity to the IND. And for every single one of the stations you mentioned that should be connected, there is an existing connection exactly one station away. This is not so for Atlantic Av/Fulton St/Lafayette St. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted October 13, 2012 Share #71 Posted October 13, 2012 The purpose of the is the BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN. If they wanted it built to connect with everything, they would've built it to run into Manhattan. You do realize that there is a difference between something a company built (the ones you refer to as 'they') and something the people want? Just because something is built in some way doesn't mean that people want it that way (or not anymore, times change). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted October 13, 2012 Share #72 Posted October 13, 2012 At least you have something. What about the people who live deep in Eastern Queens who have to take one (maybe even two sometimes) buses just to get to the closest train station? What about the people who live out in the Rockaways who's only connection to the rest of the system is the train, which is AT LEAST 25 minutes from Downtown Brooklyn on top of horrible headways? Depens on where you live in the Rockaways. There is also the LIRR to help out. Sure it's a tad more expensive but at least you have the option depending on where you live. So that's 2 connections there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted October 14, 2012 Share #73 Posted October 14, 2012 You do realize that there is a difference between something a company built (the ones you refer to as 'they') and something the people want? Just because something is built in some way doesn't mean that people want it that way (or not anymore, times change). Digging for new subway tunnels isn't cheap. Plus in the meantime, people will have to deal with the buses like they always do. Not saying 'take it or leave it', but there's no way to satisfy everyone by giving everyone a subway line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NX Express Posted October 14, 2012 Share #74 Posted October 14, 2012 IIRC the topic had shifted to constructing the transfer from Fulton / Lafayette () to Atlantic Av/Barclays. That's quite significantly cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingal11234 Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share #75 Posted October 14, 2012 I think you're being generous. I regularly take the and I rode the for years. The runs about every 8 minutes and off peak, it takes longer. Not to mention its unreliability. The is unbelievably slow.....not to mention it has healthy wait times. I don't see why a rider would want to use 2 additional connecting trains and add OVER a half hour to his commute. I agree. I was being generous. I was just trying to show some people how foolish it is to say that the A/C, S could be used to connect to the 2,3. At least you have something. What about the people who live deep in Eastern Queens who have to take one (maybe even two sometimes) buses just to get to the closest train station? What about the people who live out in the Rockaways who's only connection to the rest of the system is the train, which is AT LEAST 25 minutes from Downtown Brooklyn on top of horrible headways? The and Franklin is really not that slow. Stop exaggerating, I use it all the time to get to and from work. If it's 2 short it's blocks away, then walk. That's why they have buses and Access-A-Ride. Not every place can be connected cuz its so close to each other. Shit, going by your logic we should connect the following stops since they are 2 blocks or less within each other... -Wall St , and Broad St -23 & 50 Sts and -23 St and -Both Penn stations -49 St and 50 St -7 Av and Grand Army Plz Just cuz the stations are close, doesn't mean it justifies for a connection to be built Everything you just mentioned was studied for years and was actually needed. Lets break it down like this... Jay St-MetroTech: those 2 stations are literally sitting on top of one another. Plus that opened up more options to transfer to other lines since the don't directly connect to any IRT line in Brooklyn. Court St-Borough Hall: that's been open for decades Bleecker St: That has been the MTA's biggest half-assed transfer for 50 years. Before the transfer, if you was on the uptown side, you would have to leave the station and walk about a block or 2 just to transfer to the IND while the downtown side was already within fare control. All they did there was finish what they started. Whole point is, not everything is gonna get connected. If it's that much of a problem to walk 2 blocks, then take a can of drive. Plus, if you're in Willamsburg and you want to get downtown, the B62 is right there too... Why the hell are you bringing up Eastern Queens or the Rockaways. I never opposed building a subway line out there. In fact I think they used the LIRR right of way and build a line to the Rockaways. But that off course would cost way more than to connect the G to the 2,3. The C is by the way really that slow. It was rated the worst subway service by straphangers and the biggest reason was because it often times came once every ten minutes, and the shuttle is always every ten minutes. The B62 is also slow and an unreliable substitute for transit connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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